Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on February 17, 2002, 12:17:10 AM
-
There is no way in HELL the plane was that fragile in real life.
I've been shot down 3 times in the 262- by a grand total of about 10 whoopee .50 caliber bullets. Why is the plane so fragile? Is it just a perk point sink? Something to fly around in until a strong gust of wind knocks off a half a wing, or a rain drop gets sucked through both of your engines?
The plane is useless as is. You can't fight fighters in it, you can't attack bombers in it (unless you are REAL fond of dying), all you can do is cruise around at 500 mph and look for AFK climbers. How fun.
-
Are you kidding?
Just venting then?
-
To paraphrase:
I was shot down in the 262 three times, therefor it is undermodeled.
Urchin
-
It is not 200 perks wasted.
-
262 isnt much fun. Your icon gives you away, so everyone is chasing you. Hard to sneak up on anyone. Bombers especially give the 262 alot of trouble due to the fact that the 262s guns are inaccurate at long ranges. I was flying along in a 262 one day, and I got a bit too close to the enemy fleet. I pulled up about 9.5k and headed away from fleet when a piece of Flak set my plane on fire. That sucked.
-
From my point of view there's nothing wrong with the 262. If you watch your speed in dive and you don't try to turnfight with fighters (or you can fight fighters but you have to watch your E very carefuly then) then the plane is a devil himself.... There is nothing that can survive even the sortest burst from those 30mm. I don't know how much you fly this plane, I do it when I have the right 'mood' (eg. I get pissed by the hordes gangbanging me all the time). Then I get into 262 grab alt over those suckers, kill one or two of them and drag th rest to Hawaii :D Of course durability of P-38 would be nice but Im not complaining because I have no problem with the DM as it is now. BTW i lost about 3 262s so far (1 I left hanging on the tree while takeoff the same day they were introduced :rolleyes: )
Edit:
When I left it on the tree I was taking off with Orel. So he went on alone and got 3 kills during that sortie.
-
I find fighters no problem with 262, although chasing them gets boring since you have to sneak up on them and fire at 200 yards max.
I tried attacking a B17 at 20k in it, result was I lost an aileron on my first pass without even getting a chance to shoot back..
Second run I chased the B17 a good while before I caught him, picked up a good speed and tried to manouver so that he would be forced to change gunning positions..
When I got inside 700yards he started pinging me, I was doing about 550mph and his .50 removed a part every time they hit me.
I was missing my right engine, aileron, flap and one cannon after I passed the B17, again without even a chance to fire because I had to manouver hard not to get totally wasted by the gunner.
I was shot up and rtb:d, B17 flew home.
Reminds me of the time when I was in b17 and shot up two 262's and a 152 attacking me simultaneously. I didn't get a scratch but they all died. 152 and 262 gave credit and the second 262 managed to land it without engine.. They simply had no chance of getting close enough to hit with those 30mm :)
-
In my first and only flight in the 262, I got shot down by a low Spitfire at 1.4K. I decided to fly it no more and save my perks for another ride.
I agree with the perk system, but I think the planes are too pricy, like 200-300%. with 200 perks of blood sweat and tears invested in a 262, there are not many that will approach a buff. BTW, my only victory in it was a C47:D
-
I wish the 262 would reward you with more perkies for kills.
0.0037 pts for risking your 200 doesn't get it.
Its priced as if other planes just fold up in its presence, when actually, its tough to get kills. Flying the jet has got to be one of the most hazardous occupations in AH.
More perkies for kills!
-
262 is kinda useless. You cant fight fighters at all. Every time I bounce a fighter, they just turn away. The only time i can kill a fighter is if he is afk. Due to the aiming system of buff's guns, it's sucidal to attck a buff. I think it should be lowered to 100 perks,
-
If I recall correctly, on AirWarrior, the Me262 had durability rating next to the Zeke!
-
Originally posted by Gunthr
I wish the 262 would reward you with more perkies for kills.
0.0037 pts for risking your 200 doesn't get it.
Its priced as if other planes just fold up in its presence, when actually, its tough to get kills. Flying the jet has got to be one of the most hazardous occupations in AH.
More perkies for kills!
Get your plane back alive... that's what counts :) Gets more adrenalin pumping too, especially with more at risk!
-
Hehe when I fly 262s I fly it because I want to kill bombers in it... :D (isnt it what is was built for?) And believe me, buffs pop like baloons when you pump them up with those canons... It all depends on the approach and luck :) And even those B-26s I fear like hell when I fly any other plane die quite easyly when I fly 262... Just thinking about it makes me want to roll 262... Soo in the evening enemy buffs better stay low... :)
-
I've been in too many fights where an Me262 showed up and completely changed the complection of the engagement to believe this plane does not deserve the current perk value.
I'm glad they are rare.
AKDejaVu
-
AKDeja, how many times have you been actually shot down by one?
-
Once... though he didn't get credit because he collided with me.
But "getting shot down by one" isn't what makes them such a dramatic effect. Virtually everyone in the area now has to try to keep their focus on the enemy that were already present... and one that can be on them in an instant. One that they can't catch.. only hope to avoid. That and their record speaks for themselves.
I have never seen one aproach a fight that didn't have a drastic impact on the whole fight in general.
AKDejaVu
-
Hmmm I am 46-0 in it this tour have yet to lose one. Even shot down a 262 the other day in it. But that ws pure luck in a H2H Ho. The plane does not take damage well. 2 Sorties yesterday bot h times the landings were eventful. Was hit a couple times missing aerilon, 2 gear, 1 engine, 1 flap, 2 guns(how the fediddle did that happen when they are firing from dead 6 and the guns are nose mounted). The damage model is fediddleed IMO, the 234 takes about 10X more damage as the 262.
-
The fuselage on the 262 was packed with a lot of fuel due to the inefficiency of the early jet engines. Accounts I have read said that it was fragile/flammable in this respect. Of course, there's some LW guy out there who knows of the "Tankenlinen mk 309z" sealing material that made thes tanks absolutely damage resistant :)
Charon
-
No, I've not noticed any fragility on the part of the fuselage. What I HAVE noticed is that the engines are one ping wonders, this is intentional and Pyro has stated as much to me. What I've also noticed is that 1 or 2 .50 caliber rounds will remove the 'wingtip' (half the wing), which holds the 262 to under 400 mph in level flight, which is more than slow enough for many fighters to catch it in level flight.
HTC modelled the engines to be fragile on purpose. I suppose they also modelled the wingtip to be just as fragile also on purpose. What I can't figure out is WHY they made them so fragile- if in real life it took more than 4 rounds to shoot down a 262, it should obviously take more than 4 rounds to kill one in Aces High, 'balance' be damned.
The plane has a 200 point cost to fly, that in itself will keep it rare. It doesn't need to be more fragile than a crystal vase to boot.
-
Why the wing and other parts blow off easy I don't know, shouldn't be like that IMO and it's not the only plane.
The engines however were fragile as hell, the "props" were actually made of a kind of Aluminum instead of extra strenghtened iron (made them lighter but broke up easily, even without hits). The engine life without maintaince was about 25 hours, a single 50 cal into one of those engines would completely shatter the "prop" and maybe even put the engine on fire. Nothing wrong with the engine dammage there.
When it comes to killing fighters, it is harder yes, but far from impossible, a lil while ago, I had 17 kills in a sortie (2 realoads) with teh 262, all but 2 were fighters and almost every single one of the fighters knew I was there and manuvered hard to avoid, it's a matter of setting them up, getting the snapshots infront of them.
Don't think it is overpriced at all, should take more dammage (except in the engines) but otherwise fine.
-
I think the perk price is perfect in the 262. You want to fly something that flown correctly is totally untouchable, you need to pay the price.
Damage model? Got no real opinion....upset because you got hit? Adjust your tactics, don't blame the damage model. I don't fly the 262 purely based on my own feelings about it. I don't get the same feeling of satisfaction getting kills in it when it totally outclasses any other plane in the planeset. Kinda like beating a kindergarden kid in a game of one on one basketball, you're supposed to win, so what's the thrill? ;)
-
Thril of speed?
Well, actually the best thing is all the 20 people you can have on your 6 dragging them here and there all over map while shooting down their friends :D
-
Eddiek.. I honestly don't see how you can think that if 1 or 2 .50 rounds can BLOW THE WING OFF the 262, something is wrong with the pilots tactics and not the damage model.
Change your tactics? You'd have to do a BIT more than that in my opinion. First off, attacking any sort of buff is out, since they'll blow your wing off before you even get into firing range. Since that is just about the only thing the Me262 is good for, I think 'changing your tactics' just isn't valid.
-
Ok just returned my 262 into hangar.... 1 mission with 1 refuel => 5 kills (1x B17, 1x F6F, 1x P47D-30, 1x 205, 1x P51D).
Funny were the B17 and the P51 :) The P51 was waiting waaaay too long to do the evasive and actually it surprised me maybe even more than that other guy because I shot 4 round at D700-650 and he went BOOM :D Would never say that you can hit something at that distance... And the B17, well on first pass I shot about 50 rounds at it hiting absolutely nothing (he didnt hit me neither). On second pass I had only 9 rounds remainig and all of them hit the target. But that sucker killed my No. 2 engine... Oh well...
About the DM - I agree that the damage modell of those engines is OK. They were pretty fragile in RL so no problem with them being the same in here. About the rest of the plane, well you should fly it the way so noone can get a shot at you and you should be ok :)
-
Can't really comment on this..Still undefeated in 262..:)
-
Originally posted by Wilbus
Thril of speed?
Well, actually the best thing is all the 20 people you can have on your 6 dragging them here and there all over map while shooting down their friends :D
ROTFL :D Dead on Wilbus! Dead on :) Yeah happens almost every time... Well seems like its the plane, I always thought the cons were attracted by my personal charm :D
But best way to fly 262s is in pairs when 1 is draging the cons and the other one is killing them from behind :D We did that with Orel today and it works extremely well :D
-
262 primary role is buff interception. Each time these joke-buffs ping you, you are done.
Urchin, are u telling us that HTC made 262 fragile ON PURPOSE?? Is that a joke???
eddiek, pick up a yak or La and u are untouchable by default if flown properly, you dont need 262 for that.
90% times I fly 262 I keep untouchable, right, and with no wings, almost same with Ta.
-
i dont really feel the 262 is fragile but everytime i get any damage it seems to be a lost wingtip or smoking engine.
my biggest problem is collisions from approaching too fast :)
-
Q: what does a jet whine sound like?
A: Urchin
;)
-
Urchin, what are you basing your "one or two rounds" on? What you hear before the damage?
We've been over this over and over and over........you don't always hear all the shells that hit you, kinda like the one ping kills we have all heard, seen, and experienced. Just because you only hear one or two hits doesn't mean that is all that hit you.
Attacking buffs? Heck, no argument there. But all fighters get hammered by the buff gunnery setup in AH. Just too much lead being thrown out and concentrated in the target area. That would change if HT made the selected gunner pretty accurate and the others not selected but firing only about 30-40% accurate. Would make it more fair IMO, since it becomes one fighter against one gunner, rather than a fighter taking on a whole crew like it is now.
-
Hang, ya tard, that was mean.........but I LIKE IT! :D
-
I'm using a combination of the sounds I heard, the situation that they happened in, my experience gathered in a year of playing AH, and my common sense. Unfortunately, I don't have film from the other guys end, but I do have some from mine. I also consider myself quite adept at killing bombers, especially B-17s, and I get pinged on a regular basis doing it. The 1 or 2 pings I hear on my end when I'm coming in on one of my passes are just that- one or two pings. The buff gunner doesn't have the time to hammer me with an extended burst, because I don't keep the same line as I'm coming in. I also make every effort to attack from an angle that minimizes the number of guns shooting at me.
I don't know how much buff gunning you do, but I've done my fair share. I have a pretty good idea of how hard it is to hit a plane that is coming in at an odd angle (as opposed to a dead 6 approach). I've got a pretty good idea of how many hits I'd expect to get on an enemy plane if he attacked me like I am attacking the bomber. I've also flown a fair number of .50 caliber armed fighter planes, so I have a decent idea of what you can expect when you are spraying at a plane that is 1,200 to 1,400 yards away from you. Every 262 I've flown that has taken damage has either lost an engine, lost the engine oil, or had the wingtip blown off. I've never lost an elevator, or a rudder, or any of the other piddly little toejam that gets shot off on a regular basis in other planes.
And in my experience, there is simply no way in hell that any of the damage I took could have been the result of more than 1 or 2 random, lucky hits. I lost an engine to a B26 that was 1.8k away and flying on a perpendicular course to me as I dove past him at 600 mph going after someone else. Could YOU land a steady stream of shots on a target 5000 feet away from you that is flying perpendicular to you and diving at 600 mph? I know I couldn't. I could spray in the general direction and hope for a hit or two at most.
I lost an engine to a P51 that was 1.3k back and rapidly falling away as I zoomed past him. I was in range for perhaps 3 seconds- not enough time for me to draw a bead on a plane going 500 mph and land a steady stream of hits on him based on his projected flight path.... at most I could spray in his general direction and hope for a hit or two.
I've lost wingtips to bombers as I attacked from my normal 1'oc high position- a position I attack from all the time in 109s and 190s.... hearing the same one or two pings.... yet somehow not losing wingtips. If the bombers were able to direct a nice steady stream of hits into a plane going 500 or 600 mph, why can't they do the same thing to one that is only doing 350 or perhaps 400? I have a possible answer, which is they can't.
Look, Pyro already told me that the engine and engine oil were purposely modelled to be easy to damage. What I am having trouble figuring out is WHY they would nueter a plane by giving it the damage model of a piece of paper, AND perk it to 200 points. I understand perking it, the 262 would be the only plane in the arena if it wasn't perked. However, I think anyone that is willing to pony up 200 perks to fly the whoopee jet should at least have a reasonable expectation of making it back to base. I don't try to dogfight with the plane. It wasn't made for that. What I would like to be able to do is attack bombers with it, and be able to kill more than one without losing an engine or a wing to a couple of lucky hits.
-
Good points there Urchin. I agree with them as well.
-
"I lost an engine to a P51 that was 1.3k back and rapidly falling away as I zoomed past him. I was in range for perhaps 3 seconds- not enough time for me to draw a bead on a plane going 500 mph and land a steady stream of hits on him based on his projected flight path.... at most I could spray in his general direction and hope for a hit or two.
I've lost wingtips to bombers as I attacked from my normal 1'oc high position- a position I attack from all the time in 109s and 190s.... hearing the same one or two pings.... yet somehow not losing wingtips. If the bombers were able to direct a nice steady stream of hits into a plane going 500 or 600 mph, why can't they do the same thing to one that is only doing 350 or perhaps 400? I have a possible answer, which is they can't. "
you seem to be saying you think that 262s have alarger hit buble or something.
If Pyro did make the engines more prone to damage it is probably to try to represent the increadable unreliablity of the jumo 004 engines in a game that doesnt have any engine reliablility function. So unlike the real engines your jumos will allways get you in the air and get you to the fight and they dont flame out if your heavy with the throttle but they might not get you out of the fight if your not real carefull.
Game play coscesion I guess. But you are asking why the jumo is so vulnerable. That is probably why.
-
Not only to modell inriliability I think Pongo, the Jumo engines were fragile, one or maybe two hits would almost definatly kill them, specially if hit from the front (where buff guns come from).
Btw, it's all about tactics no matter what you attack.
A B17 can be attacked good in a 262, coming from a different angle then 6 oc is harder though.