Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Krusher on February 18, 2002, 12:10:51 PM
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http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A28165-2002Feb18.html
:)
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"The accidental incursion came at a delicate time in negotiations between Spain and Britain over the future of Gibraltar, where Britain established a military base in 1704"....
Ya, sure, accident...uh huh. :)
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They left out the most important part... the British casualty report.
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It was about bloody time. We still owed 'em for that armada thing. Revenge is a dish best served very, very cold.
Deja the yanks weren't there, so the friendly fire incidents were kept to a minimum. Ha! :D
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Wilfrid - we beat them during that Armada farce, remember? We also beat a combined French/Spanish fleet at Trafalgar (although I think the entire fleet was crewed by Frenchmen). ;)
99.9% of people in Gibraltar want to stay part of Britain. End of discussion, I believe. The Spanish have no right to even demand Gibraltar back.
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It's a good thing the British Marines didn't accidentally invade France. The French would have thought it was the Canadians out for revenge against their figure skating judge and they would have surrendered.
Elfenwolf
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LMAO
*choke*
Hahahahaahah
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"Local police spokesman David Iria said the mistake was understandable, because it is "difficult to know exactly where you are" on the poorly marked coastline."
Guess the Brits haven't heard of the new fangled GPS receivers. ;)
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Originally posted by Dowding
99.9% of people in Gibraltar want to stay part of Britain. End of discussion, I believe. The Spanish have no right to even demand Gibraltar back.
Well I guess that it is because Gibraltar, being as it is the most important international black hole for black money/major drug traffic operations/illegal inmigrant mafias/etcetera etcetera (LOOOOOOOOONG etcetera), is a nice place to live because you live in a place full of (black) money and (bought-with-illegal-money) resources. Not to forguet that you can run illegal businesses in spain beiing based at, and living it Gibraltar...5 km away from the spanish police but without them being able to arrest you.
Conventient, ain't it?. What a shame, and you still defend that state of things. Says a lot about you guys.
BTW, you must have to read the Utretch peace treaty, ain't it?...that's the ONLY reason Gibraltar "is" (it isn't) british...so you would want to take that treaty and then to stick to it, isn't it?
You claim the ownership of Gibraltar?. Nice. But then comply with the treaty wich gives you the USAGE (not the sovereignty) over that place.
Also comply with the LETTER of that treaty. That means that you Get the diddly out of that air base you placed there illegally (because is built half into spanish soil,half into demilitarized no-man's-land).
Get the diddly out of 40% of the land you got (as a favor from the spanish government,and under agreement that you would return those lands after the diseases had pased) during the diseases of the XVIII and XIX century, and that you then hold illegally , and never left.
Make the Gibraltar parliament disband AT ONCE, because Gibraltar's sovereignty, according to Utrech's treaty, is SPANISH, being the Rock given to the British as a "cesion" of land to keep all the income it produces...but being the LAND spanish.
Finally, while you get the diddly out of all those places, and while you disband that illegal parlament, please CLOSE that place for the Black market, Mafias, Drug Traffic cartels and illegal immigration organizations. But CLOSE IT FOR REAL. Don't fake it as you've been doing for the last 30 years.
ARTICULO X DEL TRATADO DE UTRECHT (13 DE JULIO DE 1713):
El Rey Católico, por si y por sus herederos y sucesores, cede por este Tratado a la Corona de la Gran Bretaña la plena y entera propiedad de la ciudad y castillo de Gibraltar, juntamente con su puerto, defensas y fortaleza que le pertenecen, dando la dicha propiedad absolutamente para que la tenga y goce con entero derecho y para siempre, sin excepción ni impedimento alguno.
Pero, para evitar cualesquiera abusos y fraudes en la introducción de las mercaderías. quiere el Rey Católico, y supone que así se ha de entender, que la dicha propiedad se ceda a la Gran Bretaña sin jurisdicción alguna territorial y sin comunicación alguna abierta con el país circunvecino por parte de tierra. Y como la comunicación por mar con la costa de España no puede estar abierta y segura en todos los tiempos, y de aquí puede resultar que los soldados de la guarnición de Gibraltar y los vecinos de aquella ciudad se vean reducidos a grandes angustias, siendo la mente del Rey Católico sólo impedir, como queda dicho arriba, la introducción fraudulenta de mercaderías por la vía de tierra. se ha acordado que en estos casos se pueda comprar a dinero de contado en tierra de España circunvecina la provisión y demás cosas necesarias para el uso de las tropas del presidio, de los vecinos y de las naves surtas en el puerto.
Pero si se aprehendieran algunas mercaderías introducidas por Gibraltar, ya para permuta de víveres o ya para otro fin, se adjudicarían al fisco, y presentada queja de esta contravención del presente Tratado serán castigados severamente los culpados.
Translation:
ARticle X of the Utrecht Treaty (13-july-1713)
The Catolic King, in his name and his successor's, gives in this treaty the full and complete property of the city and Castle of Gibraltar to the Great Britain's Crown, along its port, defences and fortress wich it owns, giving the property forever, without impediment and with full freedom on action inside it.
HOWEVER, to avoid any abuse or fraud in the introduction of merchant goods into Spain, the Catolic Kings wants, and it is to be understood that way, that such property is given in cesion to the Great Britain WITHOUT ANY TERRITORIAL JURISDICTION AT ALL, and WITHOUT ANY KIND OF OPEN LAND COMMUNICATION WITH THE NEIGHBORING COUNTRY. As the sea lanes with the Spanish coast can't be open and secured at all the times, and given that from that reason it may be that the soldiers of the gibraltar's garrison and the inhabitants of the city may come into great troubles, being the mind of the Catholic King only to forbid, as it has already been expressed avobe, the fraud in the introduction of merchant items by the means of land communications, it's been agreed that in those cases the British crown may buy with money into spanish land the provisions and the rest of bassic needs for the use of the inhabitants of the city, the prison, and the ships in the port.
But if any other merchant goods introduced in Gibraltar, being it for changing them for other goods, of for any other reason, they will be given to the spanish authorities, and presented a reclamation of the violation of this Treaty, the guilties will be severely punished
The rest of the X article talks about the British not allowing the moors to live in the city, about granting them freedom to have Roman Catholic religion ,and securing a 1st option of purchase if the British were to sell the ownership of gibraltar.
So, Dowding...You want to play by the rules?. Nice....lets start
-"british" Gibraltar (I put it into ""s because as you see, YOU HAVE NO JURISDICTION ---WHATSOEVER-- over Gibraltar) will have no parlament...because it is ILLEGALLY constituted.
-"British" Gibraltar will be reduced TO ITS ORIGINAL LIMITS, and have NO AIRPORT (because you built it in non-ceded lands)
-"British" Gibraltar will have CLOSED ACCESS by land with Spain except for the most bassic needed commerce for the survival of the garrison, the ships and the people in the city. EU? what's that?...we are talking about Gibraltar, and GIBRALTAR IS SPANISH ,sir. Read the treaty.
But see...don't do all that...even while you cheated the ownership of Gibraltar for 3 centuries, don't do that. Do another thing. ENFORCE LAW there. For real. SERIOUSLY.
The day you REALLY ENFORCE law in Gibraltar (or leave the spanish police a free hand to do it), be sure that with all the illegal money and bussiness running there seeing his paradise gone, would go away ...meaning that all the richness of the Rock would vanish.
After 2 years of that, ask the people in Gibraltar if they still want to be a forgotten place in the UK map,poor and no longer the place of the international mafia money interchanges...or they want to be a part of Spain.
What do you think they will say?.
Gibraltar is the place where most hachis enters spain, where the illegal immigrant mafias are based (out of the spanish police reach) .Where most black money go (forget Caiman islands...Gibraltar is the place to go!). Is the no-law place to go if you want to earn black money.
And it is enough already. Luckily it seems taht we'll soon have shared sovereingty and all that mess will be solved wether you want it or not....(lol what a joke...the UK never was a legal sovereign of that land and we have to NEGOTIATE a shared sovereingty...that says lots about the cynism of the UK during 3 LONG centuries)
so...
Originally posted by Dowding
The Spanish have no right to even demand Gibraltar back.
Maybe. According to that treaty, the rock is yours to do whatever you want in it...
But you have no right to operate a police there, and the Spanish do (jurisdiction over gibraltar is Spanish).
But you have no right to give authonomy to a place you don't have sovereignty over (and Gibraltar's sovereign is the Spanish King)
But you have no right to buid or live in spanish or no-man's land soil (And you've been stealing lands for 300 years)
Repeat that again, dowding...how whas that?...we have no right to demand WHAT?! OF COURSE we have the right to demand!
heh...talk about cynics
:rolleyes:
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Ooh Ooh....a fight a fight!!!!
Get him! Get him!!
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lol Sling :)
Ram, so... if the Black market leaves Gibraltar, where are you lettin' us have it ? Lichtenshtein(sp?) is a bit far away and a bit too cold :)
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What would anyone expect of people driving the wrong way of the road? ;)
Cheers,
Pepe
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Originally posted by Saintaw
lol Sling :)
Ram, so... if the Black market leaves Gibraltar, where are you lettin' us have it ? Lichtenshtein(sp?) is a bit far away and a bit too cold :)
tss tss ....
The brits still have the isles like Jersey to do not-so-clean market :D
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So R4M, when exactly are Spain planning on handing Ceuta and Melilla back to Morocco? Mmmm, I love the smell of hypocrisy ;)
Next time you have a Napoleonic Grande Armee needs kicking of the Iberian Penninsula who exactly are you going to call? :p
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Originally posted by CH3
So R4M, when exactly are Spain planning on handing Ceuta and Melilla back to Morocco? Mmmm, I love the smell of hypocrisy ;)
Next time you have a Napoleonic Grande Armee needs kicking of the Iberian Penninsula who exactly are you going to call? :p
Re-Read your history books, pls, before making this kind of statement ;)
Cheers,
Pepe
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Sorry Pepe you're right, The Brits got Gibraltar after the War of Spanish Succession, not the Penninsular War. My mistake. ;)
The point about Ceuta and Melilla still holds though, although I'm sure you'll be only to quick to tell us that it's a compleeeeeeeeetly different case, right?
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Originally posted by CH3
The point about Ceuta and Melilla still holds though, although I'm sure you'll be only to quick to tell us that it's a compleeeeeeeeetly different case, right?
I guess Pepe was telling you to read your history books about Melilla and Ceuta too.
Morocco has as many rights over Ceuta and Melilla as they have over the Occidental Sahara...
NONE AT ALL
Check your history books about this issue too, as you seem to be really misinformed. Thank you.
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R4M,
you want Gibralta back? Fight ya for it. :D
The Royal Marines have already been running excercises on possible landing sites ready for the British invasion. Wont you love that....thousands of pissed up squaddies marching into Benedorm to drink your beer and shag your women?
Oh yeah, they do that every summer anyway. doh.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Originally posted by Swoop
R4M,
you want Gibralta back? Fight ya for it. :D
The Royal Marines have already been running excercises on possible landing sites ready for the British invasion. Wont you love that....thousands of pissed up squaddies marching into Benedorm to drink your beer and shag your women?
Oh yeah, they do that every summer anyway. doh.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
Don't forget...british girls also come to spain looking for some...er...shagging ;). And almost all of them who are asked about their opinion say that the average british man is too boring in the bed compared with the spanish...
So, I guess that the "every summer" thing is quite of a quid-pro-quo for you, ain't it ? :)
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...I guess that Armada thing is still hurting like hell...:D:D:D
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Originally posted by R4M
And almost all of them who are asked about their opinion say that the average british man is too boring in the bed compared with the spanish...
Just who exactly is it doing the asking?
Well, they have to let you down easy.......after all, they're on the way to the airport at the time.......
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Originally posted by Swoop
Just who exactly is it doing the asking?
Well, they have to let you down easy.......after all, they're on the way to the airport at the time.......
LOL :D
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Guys, stop beating up on Manuel here...
You all know perfectly well that without the magnificent hospitality of the Spanish people we'd not only have to formally invest the place now that Brighton's no longer fashionable; but we'd have German's supplying their own deckchairs; and we all know where that leads....
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RAM, you left out the bit about Jews and Arabs not being allowed to enter Gibraltar, at the request of Spain.
Should that still be enforced too?
Also, why the two attempts by Spain in the 18th century to take Gribaltar back by force, after they had ceeded it to Britain?
Also comply with the LETTER of that treaty. That means that you Get the diddly out of that air base you placed there illegally (because is built half into spanish soil,half into demilitarized no-man's-land).
The airfield is built entirely on land ceeded by the treaty of Utrecht, and land reclaimed from the sea.
The treaty says Gribraltar and it's forts, plural, and the current border goes up to the second of those forts, and no futher.
The question about Jews has a serious point. Should that article of the treaty be enforced, even though it has been superceeded by human rights legislation throughout Europe?
What about article 1 of the UN International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights, which both Britain and Spain have signed:
1. All peoples have the right of self-determination. By virtue of that right they freely determine their political status and freely pursue their economic, social and cultural development.
So, should the Treaty of Utrecht from 1713 take precedence over modern human rights legislation? International law recognises that where two treaties conflict, the newer has precedence.
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Originally posted by CH3
The point about Ceuta and Melilla still holds though, although I'm sure you'll be only to quick to tell us that it's a compleeeeeeeeetly different case, right?
I hope all of you excuse me, for giving this guy an explanation....this is a very funny and joyful thread, but I just can't let it pass.
In short:
Ceuta has been, from prehistoric times, Fenician, Iberian, Cartago and Roman city. Then, barbarians from the N (Spain is Ceuta Northern country) took it (namely Vandals and Visigothics). Then (and only then) arabs held it from 707 and 1310 (as well as the rest of Spain and part of Europe). After that, until 1405 it belongs to the Kingdom of Aragon, when Portugese invade it. It remains under Portugese ruling until 1640 where Ceuta citizens decide to remain Spanish after Portugal rebellion against Spanish Kingdom. From that on, It's been Spanish town. Spanish, despite arab wars & sieges agains it.
So please explain me where Gibraltar's case is similar to this, and under what ground Morocco's claims are similar to ours. Do it quick, for if you don't do that, the smell of ignorance will be over that of "hipocricy".
Regards,
Pepe
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Good Cod, Nash, delete that reference to article 1 before the Cornish see it! You never know where these things lead....
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Yep, Nashwan...I'll refrain on using that argument against your own position....
Cheers,
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Originally posted by Swoop
R4M,
you want Gibralta back? Fight ya for it. :D
The Royal Marines have already been running excercises on possible landing sites ready for the British invasion. Wont you love that....thousands of pissed up squaddies marching into Benedorm to drink your beer and shag your women?
Oh yeah, they do that every summer anyway. doh.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
ROTFLOL!!!
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I'm not going to read this thread anymore because all it does is make me feel stupid over my lack of world history knowledge.
Damn, Ripsnort. You and I are the only dummies here.
Elfenwolf
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Yep, Nashwan...I'll refrain on using that argument against your own position....
What argument?
Cornwall, like Scotland, Wales, Northern Ireland etc have the right to self determination.
Pity you can't say the same for the Basques.
Or the people of Ceuta, for that matter, who have been campaigning for autonomy for years.
Let me get this straight.
Cetua and Mellila are Spanish because they were siezed by force, and the people who live their want the m to be Spanish.
Then (and only then) arabs held it from 707 and 1310 (as well as the rest of Spain and part of Europe).
So it was an Arab possesion for 603 years before being conquered.
Gribaltar also belonged to the Moors, from 711 to 1462, with a short break in the 14th century.
The Spanish held it from 1472 to 1713, or 241 years, compared to the 700 years previously it had been an Arab possesion.
The British have held it from 1713 to 2002, a period of 289 years .
So, Cetua is Spanish because the Arabs only held it for 603 years, but Gribraltar is Spanish because they held it for 241 years, compared to the previous 700 years for the Arabs, and subsequent 289 years for the British?
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Nice one Nashwan.
I also second Swoop's argument(s).
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nashwhan, read the aftermath of my translation of the treaty article X. I talk about the moors not being allowed into gibraltar, but if Spain wishes NOT to enforce this point, it could very well be allowed. So dont use demagogy because it leads nowhere for you.
Or the people of Ceuta, for that matter, who have been campaigning for autonomy for years.
You're on crack, right?. You must be kidding, Ceuta and Melilla both are already spanish "authonomic" cities. How come that they aree "campaigning for autonomy for years" when they've been autonomous since 1977?.
So, Ceuta is Spanish because the Arabs only held it for 603 years
No, sir, ceuta is spanish because the nation claiming the city (namely Morocco) NEVER owned that city, for NO time at all. Again, do urself a favor and check your history books. The Kingdom of Morocco -NEVER- -EVER- Owned the city of Ceuta. Clear? Capisci?.
but Gribraltar is Spanish because they held it for 241 years, compared to the previous 700 years for the Arabs, and subsequent 289 years for the British?
First of all
Since the founding of the caliphate of Cordoba, Gibraltar was SPANISH. The Caliphate of Cordoba was a SPANISH ARAB KINGDOM. BUt it was a --spanish-- kingdom (which at its peak hold 85% of the iberian peninsule, just FYI). Clear?. So the "foreign" arab ownership of Gibraltar was some mere dozens of years.
Second of all.
Previous to the Arabs holding Gibraltar there were a helluva iberians, celts, hispanic romans, and spanish visigodes (or however they are called, I don't care), but you seem to forget about it.
Third of all.
You have an afwully nice tendence to forget that according to the Utrecht treaty the British are the holders of the rights of trade, living, military use, etc, of Gibraltar-
BUT THEY ARE NOT THE HOLDERS OF THE SOVEREINGTY OF THE ROCK ITSELF!. The British have neither the sovereingty over that piece of land, neither ANY KIND OF JURISDICTION over it. Clear?
In other words, the Rock has been SPANISH for all this years, being the british the benefitiaries of a cession of the usage of the land BUT NOT OF THE LAND ITSELF.
Clear? Capischi?. Forguet about your proud "289 years of the british". The Rock is SPANISH and has legally been spanish since 1713. Hell ,even the UN gave Spain the reason in this matter.
Fourth of all.
The airfield is built entirely on land ceeded by the treaty of Utrecht, and land reclaimed from the sea.
The treaty says Gribraltar and it's forts, plural, and the current border goes up to the second of those forts, and no futher.
go check some reliable sources. The airstrip in Gibraltar is on non-ceded lands-
the "forts" you are referring to (the second forts) WERE THE SPANISH LINE OF FORTS BUILT AFTER THE CESSION OF THE ROCK. The lands in the middle are SPANISH no-man's land. And you built the airstrips there.
So please, Go back to the rock and leave that strip alone because is NOT under the UTretch lands.
Clear?
Great. Next time you come posting check your history books please, and learn before putting yourself in evidence.
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to explain the exact situation of Gibraltar according to the Utrecht treaty,and the british abuses let me do this analogy:
You own a flat. Your flat has several rooms with door to the street. You give one room on loan to a guy who wants to live in it and you owe him a big favor . (in RL it was as payement for a peace treaty, but lets put it as a favor in this analogy)
According to the loan agreement, he is free to do whatever he wants in that room with no limits, but not to come into your house. From the outter door from the outside up to the inner door to your house, he can do whatever he wants. From drinking beer to play with a playstation, to use it as a gym, or put a bar there and win money with that bar. Whatever we wants to do. But the room is yours, as is the whole of your house. He can do whatever he wants from the inner door to the outter door. To avoid possible frictions, the agreement says that the corridor wich links his room to my house won't be neither his or yours...
Finally,the loan agreement has no end. Meaning the room will be loaned to him with no time limit.
Someday the guy says "hey doc,I've got cockroaches in my room...will you give me permission to sleep at the corner of the corridor?. I promise that when I kill all those cokroaches I will go bback to my room and don't disturb you anymore.
You agree, after all the poor guy won't have to sleep at an infested room, isnt it?. You give him permission to sleep one night at the corner of the corridor,the nearest to his room. The day following you find that corner with a new door. The guy has included that zone into his room. You knock and ask WTF is going on. The guy ignores you...but you can't boot him unless you use force so you let it go...after all is a small corner.
A couple of months later he comes with the same story "hey doc" -he says- I've got a nasty mice there, and I think I even have rats...by tomorrow it will be solved, will you agree letting me sleep tonight at your corridor?...
-OK- you say -but then you go back to the original door and return the corner you stole-. He agrees and you leave him do it.
The next day you find that the guy has done EXACTLY the same AND refuses to leave the corner you left him to sleep.
One day, the guy realizes that the bar he has put in the room has taken lots of importance and that a big WC would come handy to improve it. tHe thing, tho ,is that he can't build it in the space he has legally...
so one day you wake up and find that the WHOLE corridor, and even a piece of your own house, has been STOLEN and a WC has been built there illegally without your permission. Again you call him. Again he puts that "diddly you" expression in his face, smile and gives you the finger.
Finally, one day you realize that the guy is REALLY crossing the line, and that the bar is not that clean...its full of guys selling and buying drugs to send them into your house, full of prostitution and full of guys who earn money to achieving outsiders to sneak into your house illegally. It is a crime center, and is at the other side of a door you can't close anymore. Also you have to hear that the room is.......his?...WTF?...the room is ON LOAN, not SOLD to him!
What would you do?. The house legal ownership is.....whose?...the paper with the ownership says that HOUSE IS YOURS, and even while the room is ON LOAN forever to the guy, THE ROOM IS YOURS and HAS BEEN YOURS since day one.
Well ,this pretty much sums up some of the pretty nice abuses done by UK to the UTrecht pacts. There are more, but I think its pretty well self-explaining :rolleyes:
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this was supposed to be a funny post not a debate on Gibralters fate.
If you want somthing to argue about check out this article :)
btw is the Times considered left, right or a moderate publication in the UK?
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/section/0,,59,00.html
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whoops wrong link..
BTW I find the Euro based internet rags much more enjoyable (debate wise) than the (cough) drudgereport :)
http://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/0,,482-212409,00.html
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Look R4M mate, there's no mention of a loan in the treaty. The treaty basically says "Si, we surrender and give you Gibraltar in the hope that you wont kill any more of us......oh and here's a load of crap for the treaty that people can argue about in years to come."
Now, who sank whom's armada around here?
Thats what is comes down to. We won. We got Gibratar. It's ours. The RAF Regiment protects it and no sod's getting in while the Rock Apes are on duty.
If ya really want Gibratar back that badly go scream at a squaddie on the border.......just keep in mind that he's a highly trained professional, he's well armed and he's got 30,000 men and 400 years of tradition behind him.
What you got? Oh yeah, a sunken armada.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
P.S. :D This wasnt written as seriously as I suspect it may be read.
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Originally posted by Swoop
P.S. :D This wasnt written as seriously as I suspect it may be read.
I know ;) but anyway if you read the treaty you must have to agree with me wether you want it or not :).
Hell I don't hate british people because the Gibraltar matter! I promise!...
well...at least I don't hate all of them for that!...maybe there are one or two who I really don't dislike!...
err...now that I think of it.......F.U. you british scum !!!!! :D
(absolutely tongue in cheek...I mean it. really :D)
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Cool. Just as long as we're in agreement that the British stay on Gibratar until your lot come to take it back.......and win. :D
And the same goes for any Argies thinkin bout visiting the Falklands........
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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You're on crack, right?. You must be kidding, Ceuta and Melilla both are already spanish "authonomic" cities. How come that they aree "campaigning for autonomy for years" when they've been autonomous since 1977?
Sorry, my mistake.
I remember reading in the early ninties about demos in Ceuta, and I thought the issue hadn't been resolved.
It was, Ceuta was granted autonomy in 1995 (not 77)
The question about the Basques remains.
Since the founding of the caliphate of Cordoba, Gibraltar was SPANISH. The Caliphate of Cordoba was a SPANISH ARAB KINGDOM. BUt it was a --spanish-- kingdom (which at its peak hold 85% of the iberian peninsule, just FYI). Clear?. So the "foreign" arab ownership of Gibraltar was some mere dozens of years.
No, it wasn't a Spanish kingdom. It started out being ruled from Damascus, became a single Caliphate over much of what is now Spain, split up into many smaller kingdoms, which were gradually conquered by the Spanish, and which ended up as several Spanish kingdoms. These only became Spain much later.
Previous to the Arabs holding Gibraltar there were a helluva iberians, celts, hispanic romans, and spanish visigodes (or however they are called, I don't care), but you seem to forget about it.
Shit, so the Romans have a prior claim? The Romans built a town where I live, they can't come and claim it back, can they?
Ridiculous, isn't it, going back hundreds of year to who was there first, when the people there now are what really matter.
nashwhan, read the aftermath of my translation of the treaty article X. I talk about the moors not being allowed into gibraltar, but if Spain wishes NOT to enforce this point, it could very well be allowed. So dont use demagogy because it leads nowhere for you.
You keep leaving out the Jews, they are supposed to be excluded as well (I know, I know, demagogoy)
The point isn't wether Spain chooses to enforce that or not, it's that such things are not enforceable at all. You cannot have a treaty from several hundred years ago defining the rights of people in the modern world.
BUT THEY ARE NOT THE HOLDERS OF THE SOVEREINGTY OF THE ROCK ITSELF!. The British have neither the sovereingty over that piece of land, neither ANY KIND OF JURISDICTION over it. Clear?
Leaving aside the modern treaties Spain and the UK have signed up to, that mean the people of Gib are entitled to self determination, and self government, no it's still not clear.
You mistranslated part of the treaty when you posted it:
The Catholic King does hereby, for Himself, His heirs and successors, yield to the Crown of Great Britain the full and intire propriety of the Town and Castle of Gibraltar, together with the port, fortifications, and forts thereunto belonging; and He gives up the said propriety, to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever. But that abuses and frauds may be avoided by importing any kinds of goods, the Catholic King wills, and takes it to be understood, that the abovenamed propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction, and without any open communication by land with the country round about.
Gibraltar is ceeded with all manner of rights forever.
The next part seems to be implying no territorial juristiction over the surrounding area, not Gib itself.
But that abuses and frauds may be avoided by importing any kinds of goods, the Catholic King wills, and takes it to be understood, that the abovenamed propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction, and without any open communication by land with the country round about
The sentence begins by defining the rest of it as measures to prevent smuggling into Spain.
So the "without territorial jurisdiction" part seems most likely to be reffering to territorial waters around the rock, not to the rock itself.
Like I said, it's a moot point, because the treaty has been superceeded by more treaties, but even 200 odd years ago it didn't say what you want it to say.
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Kratzner - the Times is considered a respectable broadsheet. Or at least it was until the Dirty Digger (aka Rupert Murdoch) bought it.
I'd say it was not as right wing as The Daily Telegraph, but more conservative than The Guardian (which is pretty left-wing). It's not overly critical of Blair or his government.
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Originally posted by Swoop
Cool. Just as long as we're in agreement that the British stay on Gibratar until your lot come to take it back.......and win. :D
And the same goes for any Argies thinkin bout visiting the Falklands........
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
Stop, people are looking at me funny cause I'm LMAO here at work....
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Originally posted by R4M
well...at least I don't hate all of them for that!...maybe there are one or two who I really don't dislike!...
Hehehehe!
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So what does all this prove, Nothing, Except that even in todays armed forces full of smart bombs, beyond visual range artillery & GPS systems etc there ain't nothing as dangerous as an officer with a map ;)
TTFN
snafu
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lets see..
The question about the Basques remains.
Nashwan...I honestly hope you, a british guy, Don't try to give me, A BASQUE, lessons about my land and my people.
The basque country was almost always an autonomic vassal of other kingdoms and never an independent political unity by itself. Any reason to ask independence are vain because there is no real reason to ask it. And even if they were reasons to do it, they should be argued from the grounds of the basque culture, not on the grounds of a past self-determination wich never existed.
No, it wasn't a Spanish kingdom. It started out being ruled from Damascus, became a single Caliphate over much of what is now Spain, split up into many smaller kingdoms, which were gradually conquered by the Spanish, and which ended up as several Spanish kingdoms. These only became Spain much later.
Nominally what is now known as "Spain" was created when Aragon and Castile were united under a single crown. However Spain had existed before and I count the caliphate of Cordoba as a SPANISH kingdom with all rights. The Caliphate only broke into small "taifas" after 200 years of existance, before that it was the Arab Spain, inherited from the Visigode Spain.
Summing up, it was a SPANISH kingdom. Period.
Shit, so the Romans have a prior claim? The Romans built a town where I live, they can't come and claim it back, can they?
does the Roman Empire exists as for today?. No ,isn't it.?
then that question is self-answered
The point isn't wether Spain chooses to enforce that or not, it's that such things are not enforceable at all. You cannot have a treaty from several hundred years ago defining the rights of people in the modern world
that particular clause is clear it wont be enforced. But for sure that the treaty may be enforced. Is the only reason and argument for the british to claim a sovereignty they dont own over the rock.
Leaving aside the modern treaties Spain and the UK have signed up to, that mean the people of Gib are entitled to self determination, and self government, no it's still not clear.
excuse me?...WICH treaty has Spain signed entitling Gibraltar as an UK ownership?. I want to see a copy. Care to post a link?, please
You mistranslated part of the treaty when you posted it
maybe I did it in a poor grammar but I translated it ok. What I read in your translation is equal to what I intended to post. However, you are wrong.
to be held and enjoyed absolutely with all manner of right for ever, without any exception or impediment whatsoever.
yes, the cession means you may do whatever you want within the rock limits. no limits. No cuts in the way you use it. Do whatever you want.
BUT...
But that abuses and frauds may be avoided by importing any kinds of goods, the Catholic King wills, and takes it to be understood, that the abovenamed propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction, and without any open communication by land with the country round about.
two points:
1- the property is yielded without ANY TERRITORIAL JURISDICTION. That phrase does not apply to the surrounding lands, nashwan...IT APPLIES TO THE GIBRALTAR ITSELF. In other words, the King yields the land to the British to them to do whatever they want into it....BUT HE DOESNT GIVE AWAY THE OWNERSHIP. This was an usual thing to do in those days, to cede lands to someone for him /them to exploit it and keep the usufruct. HOWEVER THE LAND CEDED IS STILL of the king or the Lord who cedes it.
Gibraltar is ceeded with all manner of rights forever.
The next part seems to be implying no territorial juristiction over the surrounding area, not Gib itself
.
.
.
Tho this I answer this line:
, the Catholic King wills, and takes it to be understood, that the abovenamed propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction
no. there it says nothing about "surrounding waters", neither to "surrounding lands" it says that the ABOVENAMED PROPERTY (namely: GIBRALTAR) its ceded for the british to use it as they see fit, But not as a british property, neither as a zone where the british have any kind of territorial jurisdiction whatsoever
Don't try to make a round line to explain this, nashwan. The thing is clear. The rights to use the rock are ceded , but not the ownership itself. Gibraltar is, still today, legally a property of the Spanish Crown. That part of the teaty applies to GIBRALTAR,not the surrounding area.
Gibraltar is spanish. So is the airstrip. So is the external settlements out from the original fortification line. Those two lasts are still worse because they were STOLEN out of the treaty from spain.
Time to get out of there, pals. Or at least leave the spanish police act at leisure there to stop the shame is going on there.
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Originally posted by R4M
Shit, so the Romans have a prior claim? The Romans built a town where I live, they can't come and claim it back, can they?
does the Roman Empire exists as for today?. No ,isn't it.?
then that question is self-answered
does the Cordoban Caliphite exist as for today?. No ,isn't it.?
then that question is self-answered
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Ram, if you leave off the start of a sentence you can change the whole meaning.
But that abuses and frauds may be avoided by importing any kinds of goods, the Catholic King wills, and takes it to be understood, that the abovenamed propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction, and without any open communication by land with the country round about.
The first part of the sentence makes it clear the whole of the sentence is to avoid smuggling.
that the abovenamed propriety be yielded to Great Britain without any territorial jurisdiction, and without any open communication by land with the country round about
The second part specifically mentions no land communication, but nothing about sea. It's pretty obvious that the "territorial jurisdiction" applies to territorial waters.
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NEWS BULLETIN...NEWS BULLETIN...NEWS BULLETIN
This just in...Francisco Franco ...is still dead
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Originally posted by Nashwan
So it was an Arab possesion for 603 years before being conquered.
Gribaltar also belonged to the Moors, from 711 to 1462, with a short break in the 14th century.
The Spanish held it from 1472 to 1713, or 241 years, compared to the 700 years previously it had been an Arab possesion.
The British have held it from 1713 to 2002, a period of 289 years .
So, Cetua is Spanish because the Arabs only held it for 603 years, but Gribraltar is Spanish because they held it for 241 years, compared to the previous 700 years for the Arabs, and subsequent 289 years for the British?
Sir,
You are absolutely out of focus, and this post is full of false hipothesys.
It's absurd to trow a line when there is no line to throw. Ceuta has been under Spanish influence (meaning by that the people living in Spanish Peninsula) since the roman empire was expelled from there by the barbarians. And the point is not why it is Spanish. It's obvious why. The point is why it shoud be Moroccan.
You must take some serious Spanish History lessons, for the whole historic substrate (in both cases, Gibraltar and Ceuta) evades you.
Gibraltar case is exactly the same as Japanese Islands taken by the Soviets in 1945. Nothing more, nothing less.
You have a treaty that backs that. But that's the only entitlement assisting Great Britain to claim that land as theirs. I'm not arguing with you wether they have right or not to have them nowadays, you are obviously not the subtlest and/or most intelligent person to treat this, and me neither. I just want to stress that putting Ceuta and Gibraltar in the same bag is absolutely, totally, senseless. This sole fact is enough to call you ignorant.
But yet you come with the Basque point...
Apart from disgusting and tasteless, is like standing up with your hand raised, yelling "here, here, I have no clue about contemporary history, but I'm ready to make whatever assertion whatever the feelings I hurt, just for the sake of my argument". And, let me tell you, you are right about Basques having no right to self determination. You know, if you were a Basque and express your points of view, and they happen to be that you want to be integrated in Spain, most likely you receive a bullet in your head, or a bomb under your car. If you were a Basque, and your town's citizen elects you as a Major, and you are not fitting the terrorist's point of view, you either resign or die....perfect democratic praxis, pristine freedom of speech, freedom of choices...
Sir, you have not the slightest idea of what you are talking about. Quit reading The Sun. Go back to History Classes, then read some contemporary, then form yourself an opinion. When you have that opinion formed, go learn some manners. And when you have some manners, have someone to theach you something about sensibility and common sense.
Insinuations like yours enrage me. When anybody talk so lightly over the blood of murdered innocent people I feel enraged. When anybody talk so lightly over the blood of people (ordinary heroes) dying in defense of my and, I hope, yours ideals, It makes me sick.
Personally, I'm not so concerned about Gibraltar being british or spanish as to it being a drug smugglers paradise, and money laundry factory. Yeah, british people must be really proud about Gibraltar economy & moral values. But I would never use such a depiseable argument to support my point.
I hope the rest would accept my appologies for the tone of this post but, Sir, your insinuation about Basque's lack of freedom is repugnant and an insult to any person who loves freedom. I do, and I feel insulted. So you can have all your arguments, all your points, and all your claims and take them wherever you want, or leave them here. I'm done with this tread and definitely I'm done with you unless I read your appology.
Sincerely,
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Pepe, Britain has a similar situation in Northern Ireland.
I regard ETA in the same way I regard the IRA, scum.
I didn't say the Basques have no freedom, I was merely pointing out that Spain will not recognise their right to independance.
That is a very long way from supporting or condoning terrorists.
It's absurd to trow a line when there is no line to throw. Ceuta has been under Spanish influence (meaning by that the people living in Spanish Peninsula) since the roman empire was expelled from there by the barbarians. And the point is not why it is Spanish. It's obvious why. The point is why it shoud be Moroccan.
Well, Spanish influence is a bit of a stretch, considering the influence was actually by the Moors, who have far more in common with modern Morocco than Spain.
Gibraltar has been British since before you or I were born, before our fathers were born, before their fathers were born, before their fathers were born, etc etc etc. In fact, around 10 generations. When America was still a British colony, and most of South America still belonged to Spain.
Get the point? No matter what you or I may say, Gribraltar is home to the Gibraltarians, and has been for generations. It is up to them to decide their own future.
Personally, I'm not so concerned about Gibraltar being british or spanish as to it being a drug smugglers paradise, and money laundry factory. Yeah, british people must be really proud about Gibraltar economy & moral values. But I would never use such a depiseable argument to support my point.
Well, RAM already has.
However, I would counter with the fact that for many years, Gibraltar was totally cut off from Spain, and that greatly damaged it's economic prospects. If Gibraltar had been able to fully participate in the tourism boom of the region, I have no doubt it's economy would have developed differently.
Spain has a similar reputation in Britain, by the way.
For many years Spain refused an extradition treaty with Britain, and allowed drug dealers, murderers and the like to live openly in Spain, and conduct their business from there. The phrase "Costa Del Crime" is well known in Britain.
All that didn't end until Spain's membership of the EU forced it to change.
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(http://www.berkeleybreathed.com/Images/opus_run.gif)
...aint no way I'm gettin involved in this'un!!
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OK, here's how we settle this. We send the 30 Royal Marines into Paris, France surrenders, we carve her up between Germany and Spain, England keeps Gibralter and everybody's happy except the French, but who cares?
Elfenwolf
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Do you think the French would retreat to Quebec?
We don't want 'em.....
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
OK, here's how we settle this. We send the 30 Royal Marines into Paris, France surrenders, we carve her up between Germany and Spain, England keeps Gibralter and everybody's happy except the French, but who cares?
Elfenwolf
Woah woah woah, hold on there, what was that part about giving land to Germany?
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Forget the politics about Gibraltar because it will continue being part of British rule.... especially since the NATO issue has quite a few bearings on the situation too.... :)
But I'm sure the SAS and Royal Marines might enjoy a bit of extra training to deal with a few invaders ;)
Regards
Nexx
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Since when the Monty Python are in the Royal Marines ?