Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on February 18, 2002, 06:52:14 PM
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Jon Gruden hired as Bucs' coach (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news/ap/20020218/ap-buccaneers-grudenhired.html)
I guess Al Davis has absolutely no interest in having a winning football team. That's it... the final straw...
I am no longer a Raider fan.
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Did you ever think he did? :)
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Jon Gruden hired as Bucs' coach (http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/news/ap/20020218/ap-buccaneers-grudenhired.html)
I guess Al Davis has absolutely no interest in having a winning football team. That's it... the final straw...
I am no longer a Raider fan.
Sandman, it was a good deal for the Raiders. 2 first round picks, two seconds, 8 mil...
Sorry, but I wasn't impressed with Gruden's coaching in the playoffs, ESPECIALLY that New England game.
I've been a Raiders fan since 1967, and although Al Davis is a horse's ass, I think he worked over Tampa Bay to get what he got for Gruden.
There's a lot of good coaches out there, and young guys like Gary Kubiak are ready to start a head coaching career too.
It's a good deal.
Elfenwolf
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Sand-Man, I'm a DIEHARD Raider fan, or was. When I heard it I was heart broken.
Gruden brought this team from a laughing stock to contenders. He cleaned up the personal mess made by Bugel and White.
His players played thier bellybutton off for the ENTIRE game and NEVER would quite. Who gives a rats bellybutton about 1st rnd picks. The Raiders had plenty of so called 1st rnd picks BEFORE Gruden and simply where a joke. Besides..how many top picks really pan out? Very few.... Gruden is a proven winner. It took Madden how many years to finaly WIN a superbowl? His loss is a kick in the gut. There are many "potential" coachs out there but few will accomplish what Gruden did his FIRST stint as a head coach for a team like the Raiders.
xBAT
Soon X-Raider fan :(
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it'll be a big change here. from quiet and controlled Dungy to this hothead. Some say he has the "spirit" the Bucs need, time will tell ...
We are screwed if players leave as we gave away our top picks for the next three years to get this coach who seems to enjoy showing his high blood pressure and limited vocab on the sidelines :rolleyes:
The Glaziers messed up by not grabbing Spurrier... for a few million more
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If you had your chance to live in Oakland or Florida, which is worse?
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I've been a Raider fan for almost 20 years and have mixed feelings about this. Gruden wasn't coming back next year and Davis knew it. So there were two choices.
Try for one more shot at the Super Bowl before Gannon, Brown, Rice, the O-Line, Allen and everyone but the ball boy were too old. Which, if they didn't make it there, they'd get a few games into the playoffs and end up with no draft picks to build a team on for the next few years.
Or, let Gruden go, maybe find a coach who can lead the old guys in one more run and get the draft picks necessary to rebuild.
If, and that's a big if, Davis plays this right, it will work out. I've heard Dennis Green's named mentioned as a new coach. Dunno. But, with a quality coach, these vets will still play like the pros they are and might have enough in the tank to make one more run at a ring. If they can stay healthy (and that was a huge key this year. look at what happened when Gannon got hurt last year v. the Ravens). And the Raiders will have 4 draft picks to raid (pun intended) next years draft for players.
Now they need some O-linemen, D-linemen, linebackers, and another wideout. :)
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Dune hit the nail on the head. Gruden said there's no way he was coaching in Oakland after his contract expired. So Davis had three options.
1) throw lots of money at Gruden and hope against hope he changes his mind.
2) Have Gruden as your coach for one more year, then have him leave after his contract expires and get nothing for him.
3) Let Gruden go before his lame duck season and snag an extra 1st and 2nd round pick in April, a 1st round pick next year, and a 2nd round pick in 2004, plus $8 million.
One choice to me stands out as the best.
By packaging the acquired picks with their current 1st rounder, the Raiders could move up considerably in the draft. I don't know if Houston, Carolina or Detroit would give up a top 3 pick for 2 first rounders and a second rounder, but if they did... Oakland could land the heir to Rich Gannon. Of course, you could hire Dennis Green and pick up Rohan Davey in a later round. He brought Culpepper along, no reason he couldn't do the same with Davey.
In any event, Gruden was gone after the 2002 season. By letting him go now, Oakland gets a good compensation package.
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YEah, and good luck with TB -- those guys sure know the value of a good coach.
Hehe, four years ago if you told anyone the Bucs were going to fire their coach after the second trip to the playoffs in two years, they'd have ridiculed you.
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As a Charger fan, I was devistated to learn that the raiders were going to get a youth infusion in the next few years. Those picks, coupled with Free agent signings could turn the franchise from Geriatric to adolecent in just a few years. I was looking forward to the Raiders floundering for the next few years, but now I think they can rebuild on the fly. Hope I'm wrong, but I'm affraid that Davis made a great move this weekend.
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by Nifty
Dune hit the nail on the head. Gruden said there's no way he was coaching in Oakland after his contract expired. So Davis had three options.
True, but Gruden never said why. I have my suspicions. Last year, Davis chose to exercise the Raider's option and extend Gruden's contract rather than re-negotiate.
I think this was the point where Davis lost Gruden.
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As much as I love the Raiders and hope Sikboy is right I'm afraid the Raiders are too old for a serious run next year. The second half of this year showed them to be only slightly better than ordinary, and I'm afraid they're in decline, which is probably the reason Gruden fled.
Elfen
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I would say anybody who thinks this was a bad deal for the Raiders doesn't understand the situation, doesn't understand the history and tradition of the Raiders, gets their football knowledge from People magazine, or is maybe not a true Raider fan. The word "bandwagon" comes to mind...
The Raiders offered Gruden three different contract extensions. He turned them down, while having his agent leak lots of rumors to Mortensen of ESPN about him going to different colleges, about confidential details of negotations with the Raiders, and about Gruden going to other NFL teams. After all this, Gruden finally said he would not negotiate with the Raiders any further and that he would leave after the 2002 season.
Faced with a stubborn and unresponsive Gruden, Mr. Davis had three choices:
1. Keep Gruden as a lame duck coach for 2002 and lose him with no compensation.
2. Fire Gruden and get no compensation.
3. Trade Gruden to a team that is desperate to hire a high profile coach because they fired a perfectly good coach and failed in the process of hiring no less than three high profile coaches.
Mr. Davis made the wise choice. He made his asking price known 4-6 weeks ago. The price was unprecedented: 2 first round picks, 2 second round picks, and 8 million bucks. Tampa Bay at the time said thanks but no thanks. But Davis left the offer on the table.
Tampa Bay had taken a gamble by firing a great coach, Dungy, because they thought they could get the fabled Bill Parcells. Parcells backed out, and they tried for Marvin Lewis, a Dungy clone, but he wasn't interested either. Desperate to save face and get a coach who was at least as good as the one they foolishly fired, Tampa Bay tried to buy out Steve Mariucci's contract. Mooch turned them down too.
Now Tampa Bay were out of options and running out of time. And who was waiting patiently, holding all the cards? Mr. Davis. He had told the Bucs a long time ago what he needed for Gruden. With the Dungy firing about to blow up in their face, and with their options and time running out, Tampa Bay were finally desperate enough to pay Mr. Davis' price. The deal was consumated and Mr. Davis turned a lame duck coach into four potential star players plus enough money to pay a few years of the new coach's salary. The draft picks are crucial because the Raiders have several Pro-Bowl veteran players whose careers will end in the next 2-3 years (Wisniewski, Thomas, Allen, Rice, Gannon, Armstrong), gaping holes at the safety positions, plus a superstar defensive lineman who has snorted his way out of the league (D. Russell). The Raiders need young talent badly and they will get it thanks to this deal.
Who will the new coach be? Among those available are Denny Green, Jim Mora, and according to Raider insiders, Steve Mariucci, whose relationship with the 49ers organization has soured. Are those guys any worse than Gruden? I don't think so.
Let's look at Gruden's accomplishments. He created a team of elderly veterans who have a very good but conservative offense, a porous defense, and lose in the playoffs every year. Green, Mora, and Mariucci have all demonstrated the ability to do that, with far fewer future Hall-of-Famers than Gruden had at his disposal.
Furthermore Gruden has not fixed the penalty problems (Raiders still among the league leaders), and he has not fixed the character problems (Russell and Janikowski are the most prominent addict/criminals on the team).
And I'm not even getting into Gruden's overly conservative and inappropriate offensive playcalling in key situations, which has cost the Raiders many games.
Finally, Gruden never was a Raider. His actions in negotitation, and the actions of his agent, showed selfishness and disloyalty to Mr. Davis. Mr. Davis is all about self sacrifice and loyalty. If you put the team before yourself and you are loyal to the Raider organization, you are rewarded with Mr. Davis' eternal loyalty and gratitude, as many many former players and coaches can attest. Once a Raider, always a Raider. Jobs, financial help, medical help, educational help, Mr. Davis provides all these things to loyal Raiders after their football days are over. But if you are disloyal and put your own needs before those of the team, then you are not a Raider. Gruden's actions in negotiation and with the media put him in this category, and to have such a person leading the Raiders on the sideline was not acceptable.
So IMHO it is a great day in Raider history. A cancer has been removed from the team. There are available coaches who are as good or better as Gruden. And the Raiders got four key draft picks which will help them rebuild an aging squad. I was so happy when I heard this news that I called all my Raider buds to celebrate.
See you in September.
Section 143, Row 19, Seat 8.
WAR RAIDERS!!!
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My opinion: If the Raiders had any other owner than Al Davis, they'd have won 10 of the last 20 super bowls instead of 1.
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Hail to the Redskins.
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Wow Nifty we are on the same page of the vertical offense playbook. I composed that post for another board and cut and pasted it here, then I read yours. :)
I totally agree about trading up. Julius Peppers in Silver and Black. :)
You're thinking about getting Green and Davey. Hell let's get Culpepper! He is in disfavor in MIN, and we are getting cap room over the next two years as Wis, Rice, Allen, Thomas all retire.
Gannon says he wants to play for Gruden... Cool, trade his ass. He's old, not going to get any better, and has bloated stats plus a couple of Pro Bowl MVPs to inflate his percieved value. Raiders need a QB who can throw more than 15 yards. I'll take Bledsoe or Culpepper plus a good defense over Gannon and a Gruden defense.
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As far as Rip, well that crack on Mr. Davis goes to show you know as much about football as you know about baseball. There is a price for being a Maverick. When you do things like forcing the NFL to merge with your upstart league, breaking the color barrier on the field, in the front office, and in the coach's office, suing the league for their illegal and immoral actions, and avoiding discussions with biased and irresponsible media, you pay a price. There are a lot of bigoted old rich amazinhunks in the league hierarchy and their power is exceeded only by their length of memory. For dedicated Raider fans the price is obvious. We see it exacted in almost every game, and in every league ruling regarding our team. For the rest of you, you only see it on snowy nights in New England. Just a little taste of what has been going on for 30 years.
And if that was a backhanded stab at Oakland, WHATEVER. Bay Area is a fabulous place to live if you have money. Most of the Raider coaches and players live in the hills in the East Bay. Rolling hills, green grass, oak trees, golf courses, wineries, ahhhhhh. I'll take that over humid bug-infested gatorland any day.
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True Funked but Oakland is a pretty sad place..... Man is it an ugly city.
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Yeah but like I said who lives in Oakland? The team facilities are in Alameda and most of the players and personnel live over the hills. They only go to Oakland for games. And the Coliseum is a great venue. Great crowd too, by far the most diverse I've seen at a sporting event. Whites, blacks, hispanics, asians in about equal numbers. People who wouldn't normal socialize are jumping up and down high-fiving each other because of something Brown or Garner does. Compare it to the 49er crowds which are "white and whiter". Yawn.
BTW downtown by the lake and Jack London are quite nice areas. There are some other nice areas in Oakland too. But if you don't live or work in the area I guess you might get the impression that it's all the same.
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"ahhhhhh. I'll take that over humid bug-infested gatorland any day."
Bet my bugs are bigger than ur bugs, and my humidity is higher too...
Gators are just overgrown lizards, just can't catch em and put em in jars...
:)
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I know there are a few people in Irwindale, CA who have no love for Al Davis. Seems he took $10 million from them before deciding not to move there. That one is still in litigation.
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Jack London area is very nice, so nice in fact that I don't even consider it a part of Oakland. :D
So why are you so racist against Whites Funked? ;) Is that any different from saying that a place is bad if it has too many Blacks or Asians?
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Let's leave your precious mascot outta this one, Eagler. We still have 9 months before you and I get to go at it in earnest on here. :D
Funked, that was just the football fan in me talking. ;) I'm not a big AFC fan at all, but when I gotta pick, I usually like the Raiders. Something about the Silver and Black... and the fans too.
As for Culpepper, you'd probably have to wait until he's a free agent. I don't think the Viqueens are gonna be trading for him, and I don't think you'd wanna pay the price if they were.
My thoughts come more from the Houston side of things. They have the #1 pick, but they need more solid talent than just David Carr. San Diego made out like a bandit last year by trading down and getting Tomlinson, then picking up Brees in the second round. By trading the #1 pick and picking up more solid players they'd help build the franchise, which is what they should be doing. The QBs are more than just Carr and Harrington, the "Dolts", as ya called 'em, realized there's more than Vick last year. Given that, the Raiders have a good chance at moving up to get Peppers or Carr (they can afford to bank on one of these guys as they've obviously got a much stronger foundation to build on than Houston.) As for getting Peppers, you need the #1 pick. Detroit might be willing to trade down (they need secondary and RB help behind Stewart), but I just don't think Carolina is passing on Peppers for Carr or Harrington, and I don't think they'll be trading down. In any event, I think the Raiders will be trading up with the picks, especially if they are tight against the salary cap. They may not be able to afford 2 first rounders and 2 second rounders (this is a reason why Tampa could handle getting rid of picks, they're about to be in salary cap hell when Brooks, Lynch and Sapp hit the later years of their current contracts, unless McKay made some damned good contracts!)
anyways, time to leave work. :) I love football!
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Grunherz I'm not racist against whites. If anything I'm racist the other way. I was just pointing out a benefit of having the stadium in Oakland, and a benefit of Mr. Davis long-standing committment to breaking down racial barriers. The fans are from all races and from all walks of life, and for three hours on 8 Sundays each year, they have a pretty good time together.
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Yep, they need safety help in a huge way. Anthony Dorsett couldn't stop a slant pattern if his life depended on it.
Like I said before, this is going to work out well for 'da Raiders.
Dune, proud member of the Raider nation since 1980, Dune.
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Was a joke Funked, I know what you meant. :)
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Meanie :)
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Originally posted by funkedup
I would say anybody who thinks this was a bad deal for the Raiders doesn't understand the situation, doesn't understand the history and tradition of the Raiders, gets their football knowledge from People magazine, or is maybe not a true Raider fan. The word "bandwagon" comes to mind...
>snip<
So IMHO it is a great day in Raider history. A cancer has been removed from the team. There are available coaches who are as good or better as Gruden. And the Raiders got four key draft picks which will help them rebuild an aging squad. I was so happy when I heard this news that I called all my Raider buds to celebrate.
See you in September.
Section 143, Row 19, Seat 8.
WAR RAIDERS!!!
Mayber you're right, Funked. Maybe I just oversimplified the history. It just seems to me that the Raiders haven't been a true contender until Gruden came on.
I'll hold off my judgement until next year.
Who do you think they have in mind for a replacement?
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funkedup knows his chit.
, where u at in the East Bay?
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I'm in lovely Livermore.
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I like Livermore, we had some family up there till they moved a few years ago. Nice cozy city.
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livermore is a nice place. especially this time of year when its green. i don't know about those summers though. i like not having to own an air conditioner :)
if i had to pick between oakland and florida i'd just shoot myself - they both suck. like you mentioned though - the oakland/berkeley hills and piedmont/orinda/lafayette areas are really nice.
i wouldnt mind living there but florida only impressed me as the place where old trailors go to die.
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Been a Raider fan for 20+ yrs. Certainly NO bandwagoner. The entire situation frustrates the sh(* outta me. I loved what Grudern did w/the Raiders. Al Davis has streaks of brilliance but he screws the pooch alot too. Jeff George...Joe Bugel etc come to mind. The draft isnt what is use to be beyond huge hype. Most teams are made or broken through free agency anymore. How many 1st round draft picks have actualy paned out for the Raiders?
I quess I just wish the Gruden/Davis had worked something out so he'd still be in the SIlver and Black. I mean we had to deal w/White then Bugel before. I liked Art Shell...
Anyway.... I think I'm just getting sick of "Professional" sports that the indiv's concerned are anything BUT professionals beyond a paycheck to play. :rolleyes:
xBAT
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Originally posted by funkedup
When you do things like forcing the NFL to merge with your upstart league, breaking the color barrier on the field, in the front office, and in the coach's office, suing the league for their illegal and immoral actions, and avoiding discussions with biased and irresponsible media, you pay a price.
I said last 20 years(20 superbowls) not the last 30. READ.