Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: hazed- on February 20, 2002, 03:07:52 PM
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Just some info for anyone trying the 190a5 out in AH:
source 'FOCKEWULF fw190 in Combat' by alfred price.
info was from allied tests of a captured 190a3
Power plant:
BMW 801-d,14 cylinder,2 row radial fitted with two speed supercharger giving the best performance at 9,000 and 18,000 ft.Between 5000 and 8000ft the performance of the engine falls off as it is just below the height where the two-speed super charger comes into operation.Estimated power 1700 HP at maximum power altitude of 18,000ft.
armour plate:
The pilot seat is made of 8mm armour plate and in the unprotected gaps behind are fitted shaped strips varying in thickness between 5 and 6 mm.The pilot's head and shoulders are protected by shaped armour plate 13 mm thick and the windscreen is of bulletproof glass 1 and 3/4 inches thick.Both fuel tanks are self sealing.The oil tank,qhich is situated in front of the engine cowling, is protected by a ring of armour plate varying in thickness, and the tank itself is surrounded by a toughened steel ring.
Gun buttons /switches:
The guns are fired by means of a button on the front of the control column.A small switch at the side of the column enables the pilot to select the following alternatives:
i MG 17 and MG 151/20 guns
ii Oerlikon ff 20mm guns
iii All guns
In addition to this it is possible, by means of cut-out switches which are situated on the starboard side of the cockpit, to fire each pair of guns independantly.
Harmonization:
The harminization ranges for each pair of guns are:
two MG17 guns at 300 metres or 330 yards
two MG 151/20 guns at 450 metres or 490 yards
two Oerlikon FF 20mm guns at 250 metres or 270 yards.
theres loads more info but this snippet has a bit more relevence to AH.Other stuff is about heatng,sighting view,radio, oxygen,enduance etc.
p.s. it would be nice to have this sort of gun selector in AH dont you think?
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Hazed, I'm not sure if the A5 had a different firing circuit than the A8, but I would be very suprised.
Look at the information I posted in the 190 Links post from the 190A8 pilots manual, it tells how the firing circuits worked for a 190A8 at least.
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-gun-circuit.jpg
Basically you could fire the inner cannons and cowl MG's at the same time (one circuit), or the outter cannons and any gondola's (one circuit), or all of them together (both circuits switched on).
Me and RAM went round and round on this :)
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Estimated power 1700 HP at maximum power altitude of 18,000ft.
1700 Hp at 18000ft ????
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Verm, it depended alot on each aircraft, some aircraft had different then the other of the samer version, as stated by a 190 Pilot in that same book Hazed got the info from.
Also, the info Hazed wrote came from the RAF tests of the conducted on a 190 A3 after it had made a landing in Great Britain. Definatly not wrong.
Actually, the one you describe is the exact same as Hazed desribes. Would be nice to have it in AH since we don't.
We have possibility to select weapon, only plane that can do this is the P51D.
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verm im only typing whats in the book.I have seen copies of the original RAF documents on the BB before but sorry :( not sure where.
Mandoble, thats what the book says and also there is reference to the engine they have being underrated, I'll add it:
'performance:
The all round performance of the 190 is good.Only breif performance tests have been carried out and the figures obtained give a maximum speed of apprximately 390 m.p.h. True at 1.42 atmospheres boost, 2,700 r.p.m. at the maximum power altitude of about 18,000ft. All flights at maximum power were carried out for a duration of 2 minutes only.
There are indications that the engine of this aircraft is de-rated, this being supported by the pilots instruction card found in the cockpit.Further performance tests and engine investigation are to be carried out by the RAE and more definate information will then be available.
Throughout the trials the engine has been running very roughly and as a result pilots flying the aircraft have little confidence in its reliability.The cause of this roughness has not yet been ascertained but it is thought that it may be due to a bad period of vibration at certain engine speeds which may also affect the injection system.[Later it was discovered that the roughness was due to fouling of the bosch sparking plugs after a short period of runningThe fault was cured by fitting siemens type plugs taken from the BMW 801A engine of a crashed Do217 bomber.]'
so as you can see there may be slight performance or power increases to what was tested.
Also proves the do 217 was around too hehe
Do 217 to AH!!!! :D
hers the full info on the book:
'focke wulf in combat-alfred price' ISBN 0-7509-2548-5'
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There is no reason to doubt Alfred Prices sources, specially not since he had direct contact with Kurt Tank and different 190 pilots and 190 test pilots while he wrote the book! The Speed of the A3 was infact quite much better then 390, not quite sure of it but was above 400.
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(http://www.vermin.net/fw190/D9speed2chart.jpg)
Main production version of 190d-9 seems to be (curve 2), right? With it's top speed of 702-704kmh at 5.5km. (Other fw document for 190d-9 production model lists top speed as 702kmh at 5.7km)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/charts/190d9speed.gif)
When we look at AH data for 190d-9 we can see top speed is around 685kmh(428mph) at 5.5km.
So my question is....why is FW 190d-9 so much slower here, just curious?
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Maybe AH 190d-9 engine is rated 1900hp instead of 2100hp?
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Starting to think that the Jumo engines in AH are badly modelled. Both the 190 D9 with Jumo 213A and the TA152 with Jumo 213 E-1 are both about 15-20Mph slower then they really were.
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Illo, this chart doesnt seem to be for a standar D-9, the chart is for 190D, but no 9 is seen on it.
Even being hardly readable, in weapons you can see 2 Mg131 and 2 MK101 guns (the Mk is clearly visible, perhaps 108 instead 101)??? plus an ETC rack. This configuration would match with 190D-11 equipped with Jumo 213F instead Jumo 213A. In the other hand, flug-motor seems to read 213A for all the curves.
If this is the speed chart of a Mk101/8 armed D9 (using 213A), then you may expect even more mph for a 2x151/20 standar one.
Forgot to say, 213A did more than 2200 hp with MW50 boost at sea level.
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WEP Speed of a D9 was about 440Mph.
The TA152 was capeble of 472Mph at 41k. That was the H-1 modelled with GM1 and MW50 boost.
The performance AH TA152 has matches the TA152 C with Jumo H-0 engine.
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I, for one, do not want the d9 or any FW's (except F8's loadouts) improved. I do not want to see a LW la7.
...besides the d9 has the worst high speed handling of all the FW's. (why this is I do not understand, same wings) Increasing its speed would only help while running and you would be compressed the whole time. :D
F.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Illo, this chart doesnt seem to be for a standar D-9, the chart is for 190D, but no 9 is seen on it.
Even being hardly readable, in weapons you can see 2 Mg131 and 2 MK101 guns (the Mk is clearly visible, perhaps 108 instead 101)??? plus an ETC rack. This configuration would match with 190D-11 equipped with Jumo 213F instead Jumo 213A. In the other hand, flug-motor seems to read 213A for all the curves.
If this is the speed chart of a Mk101/8 armed D9 (using 213A), then you may expect even more mph for a 2x151/20 standar one.
Forgot to say, 213A did more than 2200 hp with MW50 boost at sea level.
Uhhh...you need some glasses, that's a 151 in the second row.
That's baffled me too Furious, no idea why the Dora would be the worst handling 190 at high speed. The A8 handles much better and compresses later, although they use exactly the same wing.
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Illo, this chart doesnt seem to be for a standar D-9, the chart is for 190D, but no 9 is seen on it.
Mandoble, sry i have to disagree. This is chart for standard d-9. Look 704kmh at 5.5km.
Here are more matching numbers. If you don't still believe i think there are loads more over internet.
Compare speeds to chart. Numbers in brackets are with MW50 boost which is normally fitted in 190d9. Usable for 10min periods with 5min pauses. Without MW50 numbers without brackets should apply.
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Mandoble above are clearly visible.
Jumo213A
2xmg131
2xmg151/20
Also ETC 504 rack was standard for 190d-9
And previous chart reads mg131, mk151
(i believe which means mg151/20. Mg151 is 15mm, 20mm conversion from mg151(/20) is actully "kanone" caliber . It's misleading that sometimes only mg151 is mentioned when they actually mean mg151/20)
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AH 190d9 seems to go with numbers of 190d9 without MW50. I don't think such were used much RL tho. Well..now i figured it out :).
thx for help.
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Jumo 213 engines porked in AH.
yeha, can somebody explain why the Dora compresses faster?
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hehe ok the idea of the thread was for newbies to get an idea of where the 190a's perform best but i guess a dora debate will have to do :)
HTC i didnt start it this time HONEST! :D
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702 km/h = 435 mph
AH D-9 chart top speed = 431 mph
612 km/h = 379 mph
AH D-9 chart SL speed = 377 mph
Looks like 2 to 4 mph difference. That's 0.9%
I smell a conspiracy!!!
Start the witch hunt!!!
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702 km/h = 435 mph
AH D-9 chart top speed = 431 mph
612 km/h = 379 mph
AH D-9 chart SL speed = 377 mph
Looks like 2 to 4 mph difference. That's 0.9%
I smell a conspiracy!!!
Start the witch hunt!!!
Isn't 702kmh more like 439mph?
431-439 is 8 mph difference.
431mph=689kmh looks more like fw190d-9 with no MW-50.
or is there something wrong with my maths? :D
Sorry for stealing thread for nothing Hazed.
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Can some aerodynamic genius explain why the D9 compresses before the A8? Since they use the same wing, I'd figure they would have pretty much identical critical mach numbers.
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Well unless German Kilometers are uber compared to everybody elses Kilometers, then 702 KPH = 436 MPH.
Hooligan
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Yeah I converted wrong, it should be 380 mph and 436 mph. So it's a whopping 3 to 5 mph difference from those Fw charts. Of course it can't be possible that HTC have a better or more detailed source than those?
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thx for understanding funkedup
:)
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Funkedup im not even flying this sim. I don't really care how HTC models flowers[edit]was just asking for hugs and kisses[edit]
[edit] :)
Go online to hug[edit] all those Honey-bees[edit] who you love[edit] so much...i guess it makes you feel better. Some of you seem to really believe in that love[edit].
[edit]
Näkemiin! :D
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flowers , and little fluffy rabbits hehehe
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Geez sorry just kidding.
I'll change it. :)
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ok ill edit too.
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Nah I deserved it. :)
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Yes you did :D
The charts posted are from Germany but if teh error is only 1% then it's ok. Didn't look like it on the AH chart though.
The TA152 IS too slow though...
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stop it! you make me feel guilty! :)
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As you might remember, i was the one that brought those charts to AH, just before it was modeled back in april 2001 (hope thats right).
And i spent hours and hours last year to compare AH D9 performance with the one on the charts. I had plenty of help with that from HoHun (Henning).
Also i got a hard copy of the original FW speed chart, together with additional papers. The quality is much better than the scan.
And to get the AH D9 speed, i counted single pixels of the AH D9 speed chart.
I will summarize the results.
AH D9 matches nearly exactly the speed of a real D9 using a JUMO213A, on B4 (87 Octane) fuel and MW50 for special Emergency (curve 4 on the chart).
I think the AH D9 top speed is 430mph max, and 377 mph SL (100%fuel).
The one for the real D9 (curve 4) is 432mph max, and 379 SL.
The 2mph difference, comes from a fact, that i couldnt clear yet.
The FW speed chart is for a weight of 4250kg.
But fully loaded weight for D9 is always listed as 4270 kg, this also appears in this way for the original FW climbchart.
So the 20kg more weight of the AH d9 compared to the one from the chart, will explain the minimal speed difference.
I also want to make a full performance picture of the D9, containing speed, climb and turn and compare this to the AH D9.
But this would need time (especially testing AH D9 performance) that i cant afford yet.
Cause it is bad to trust the gauges and charts from AH, i would like to use data, that was gained by testing the AH D9, so we have the exact informations we need.
But what i can surely say, is that the speed of the AH D9 is not wrong. It matches the speed of the (as far as i know) most comom variant of the D9 in 1945.
A little paradox, but intersting, is the fact that the fastest D9s were the early ones, that used C3 fuel. Those would have the speeds of curve 1) in the chart.
So a D9 of September 44 would have performance equal to curve 1)
and one from January 1945 would have that of curve 4) or that what we have in AH at the moment.
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According to Galland the first units that got the D-9's top speed was around 370!!!! They had no boost and were subpar at best. Well that is what he wrote in one of those damned books I have stored right now. JG26 something something. SOmeone else will go look it up for me I am sure. But before boost was added they really were pigs.
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There's a difference, between the units getting only the D9 with JUMO213 using B4 fuel and without boosting and the onve getting D9 using C3 fuel.
The C3 fuel birds were really fast and powerful. And the squads histories (JG54 and JG26) i found mainly statements regarding to C3 fuel than to B4 fuel. It seems there were couple of problems, with D9 sitting on ME109er fields that only stored B4 fuel. The D9 pilot had to wait till C3 fuel was delivered before he could take off.
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A little paradox, but intersting, is the fact that the fastest D9s were the early ones, that used C3 fuel. Those would have the speeds of curve 1) in the chart. So a D9 of September 44 would have performance equal to curve 1)
and one from January 1945 would have that of curve 4) or that what we have in AH at the moment.
Thanks Naudet. Ho-Hun told me about that 87 octane just recently...funny.
Btw. What curve 3 stands for? That low alt performance is awesome.
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Curve 3) is for an engine that uses a special A-Lader (A-Charger).
The estiminated low alttitude power is somewhere between 2200-2300PS. How exactly it worked, i could not find out yet.
Yes, HoHun knows as much (in some parts more) than me about D9, together we searched for as much D9 data as we could find.
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OK Coming back to the D9 compression and the Ta152 being too slow(and stalling like a mother) any one has any clues?
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Glasses, if you have some time, we may do some diving tests in DA from A1 (> 10k dive to the sea) with different 190s and some other planes. You will be very surprised, specially with the Typhoon. Any clue? not at all, but the fact is that D9 control at hi speed is poor even comparing it to the A series.
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TA152 not very good at high speeds either, not the same wing as Aseries though so might be that.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Yeah I converted wrong, it should be 380 mph and 436 mph. So it's a whopping 3 to 5 mph difference from those Fw charts. Of course it can't be possible that HTC have a better or more detailed source than those?
Fek ... my new ride is porked ...
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Naudet, do you have drag coeficients for D9 and A8?
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A comparison of drag coefficients u can find here
Drag Coefficients (http://jagdhund.homestead.com/files/DoraData/aerodynamics.htm)
But i will include them here:
D9 has a CD "Coefficient of Drag" of 0.0062
the A8 one of 0.0071
So the D9 should dive faster and keep Energy better, cause the drag coefficient is lower.
I yet did not do any test on diving and zooming, but i always got the feel the D9 losses to much E in the vertikal.
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Originally posted by Naudet
I yet did not do any test on diving and zooming, but i always got the feel the D9 losses to much E in the vertikal.
Me too, but I'm a luftwhinner, so I dont count. Time to grab some Hp/Weight ratios now ...
Thanks Naudet.
(straffo, be aware, even uglier maths otw)
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Hey !!!!
Now I'm a luftwhinner too :)
the proof :
Fek ... my new ride is porked ...
And I'm just warming-up !
Make no mistake I will be the worst of all luftwhinner ...
I just stated my luftwhinner boot camp :D
I can say :
ein tzwei ...whinne
ein tzwei ...whinne ...
ten time without breathing now ;)
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Estamos mandobelito vamos me avisas cuando para hacerlo
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Glasses, hoy te busto en la MA. Estare a partir de las 22 GMT.
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Mandoble perdona que no se pudo hacer vine a ver lo que estaba posteado aqui hoy por lo del problema que tenia HTC con el site.
Dime otro dia para ver si lo hacemos.
Lo quiero hacer a ver si probamos a estos y al pyro para que lo arreglen.
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Living La Vida Loca
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No te preocupes Glasses, lo hacemos cuando coincidamos online y listo. Espero que pueda ser hoy mismo.
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Raub mordisqueame el escroto.
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:D :D :D :D :D