Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Widewing on February 20, 2002, 05:36:21 PM
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I find this somewhat amazing. Hurricane IIC K/D against all types, so far this tour:
1042/878 or 1.187:1......
Moreover, it scores virtually the same against the other turnfighters.
Against-
A6M5b: 32/23
SpitIX: 103/81
Seafire: 31/30
SpitV: 52/50
1.183:1
Rather impressive for a fighter of its age and design.
I suspect that some of the better sticks are spending time in the Hurricane. If not, what happens if they do?;)
My regards,
Widewing
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In real life the Hurrican had better kill ratio than a spit
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The Hurri is a great base defender.
25% fuel and that little hispano clip can spoil an attack.
Widewing,
I just checked out the site in your signature.
Are you connected to it in any way?
Either way, good site, you should plug it with a post.
eskimo
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Originally posted by paintmaw
In real life the Hurrican had better kill ratio than a spit
Not during the BOB. Not sure about the rest of the war, but I highly doubt it.
I'll post the BOB stats when I get home from work, in about 5 hours.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
The Hurri is a great base defender.
25% fuel and that little hispano clip can spoil an attack.
Widewing,
I just checked out the site in your signature.
Are you connected to it in any way?
Either way, good site, you should plug it with a post.
eskimo
Yeah, I've got about a 3/1 ratio in the Hurricane.
The Planes and Pilots of WWII is my site. I've been working on it since 1998. However, it's tough finding the time to update it on a regular basis. Most of my writing time is spent on book and magazine projects with Warren Bodie. I do some editing as well.
My regards,
Widewing
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Could it be the the Hurricane II with its 4 x 20 mm Hispanos and top notch turn performance might be discovered by the masses and become the favorite dweeb plane on a level comparable to the Hog-C? Standing by to see if one of the oldest planes in the set becomes overused and gets perked ;)
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Just wait for Hurricane Mk. I :D
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Try the Hurricane IID. It's harder to kill with, but oh the satisfaction of watching the nme fall to bits when hit with a 40mm!
Oh baby!
SOB
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All I can remember is the hand-wringing and angst about the Hurri being included (from the cross-wearing contingent). Seeing that it has been fully realized as the terror as it was prophesied can only send them back to wetting the bed...:p
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quake call that Quad damage :D
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Heh, have flown the Hurricane 4*BFG 20mm in H2H.
It's funny to see your target disintegrate from 2-4 hits :).
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That's why this is Cannon's High instead of Aces High. An obsolete A/C should not have a positve K/D in a 1944 Plane set. IRL the Hurricane was no match for the A6M5 in any respect.
IMHO the gunnery model or at least the damage model is way to sensative in AH. I have documented encounters of F4U's and F6F's returning from missions with 40plus 20Mill holes from NIK2's. P-38's returning with giant AA holes in the wings. In AH just a few hits results in either instant death or catastrophic damage. Their are way to many snapshot kills in AH. It just didn't happen that way.
Does anyone other than me think that the limited damage model in the TA is more realistic?
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I tend to think the damage should be less predictable. Aircraft should die more often from a single 20mm hit, and also survive a dozen 20mm hits more often. But overall I think do think planes tend to die from a realistic number of hits.
Also a lot of people don't care if they die in the MA (at least don't care if they die as long as they accomplish some goal along the way). So with plenty of players exposing themselves to horrendous risks, I would expect anything with heavy armament to get a lot of kills in the MA. Almost every fighter in the set is significantly faster than a Hurri. If you actually keep your speed up a little you can easily avoid being killed by the likes of hurris, a6ms and c202s. People just choose otherwise.
Just my opinions.
Hooligan
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Hurri with 2x40 mm it's perfect panzer killer.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
That's why this is Cannon's High instead of Aces High. An obsolete A/C should not have a positve K/D in a 1944 Plane set. IRL the Hurricane was no match for the A6M5 in any respect.
IMHO the gunnery model or at least the damage model is way to sensative in AH. I have documented encounters of F4U's and F6F's returning from missions with 40plus 20Mill holes from NIK2's. P-38's returning with giant AA holes in the wings. In AH just a few hits results in either instant death or catastrophic damage. Their are way to many snapshot kills in AH. It just didn't happen that way.
Does anyone other than me think that the limited damage model in the TA is more realistic?
I think one of the keys lies in your post f4udoa, (btw, heya). You have documentation of returning aircraft with numerous 20mm holes. In AH, we don't get holes, we get parts knocked off or at least thats the graphic representation.
My point. When we receive damage in AH, are we actually flying without a rudder for example, or is it a damaged rudder? I for one haven't a clue.
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
That's why this is Cannon's High instead of Aces High. An obsolete A/C should not have a positve K/D in a 1944 Plane set. IRL the Hurricane was no match for the A6M5 in any respect.
IMHO the gunnery model or at least the damage model is way to sensative in AH. I have documented encounters of F4U's and F6F's returning from missions with 40plus 20Mill holes from NIK2's. P-38's returning with giant AA holes in the wings. In AH just a few hits results in either instant death or catastrophic damage. Their are way to many snapshot kills in AH. It just didn't happen that way.
Does anyone other than me think that the limited damage model in the TA is more realistic?
Good points,
But then again I survive loads of pings, even cannon pings quite often. Even in an A6M.
eskimo
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
That's why this is Cannon's High instead of Aces High. An obsolete A/C should not have a positve K/D in a 1944 Plane set. IRL the Hurricane was no match for the A6M5 in any respect.
Well It was writen in so many threads until now that I almost wonder whether it has sense to write it again, but you should not forget that behind the stats is not the plane but the pilot flying it. In MA there are just too many people who try to engage Hirricanes in a turnfight while they are flying in some top uber latewar plane (no matter if LW or Allied or Alien) they get shot down because the on the dime turning laser firing Hurricane shreds their UBER unbeatable planes to pieces and those guys then start to cry either on Ch. 1 or on BBS that It is not fair! That Hurricane should not be able to kill latewar planes etc. If my knowledge is correct then Early war planes were not equiped with deflection shield matrix projectors BUT neither were the Late-war ones. SO! If the latewar plane gets in front of the early-war one and the pilot will pull the triger guess what is going to happen? The latewar plane will die! Why? Because the pilot of it just underestimated the other plane and let him get an angle for a shot and thats something you almost always pay for with your life.
Conclusion? Early war planes have no chance against latewar beasts... If flown properly of course... :D
You are not satisfied with damage modeling? You have evidence of planes geting home with unbelievable ammounts of damage? Hmm... Good, but Im asking - Where is the evidence of planes that did not make it home? Do you know what kind of damage sent them down? As for AH - yes it happens so many times that few pings rip part of your plane or makes you go boom but it also happens that you get pings but no visible damage - in this case I can tell you about one of my flights in Spit V (yeah I know its a dweeb's plane but let me finish this ok? :)) so, I was dogfighting while defending my home airfield, there were many enemies, I got some, my friend got some (you know how it goes in situations like this). I got pinged so many times by P-51s, Spitfires, 205s but still all was in GREEN :eek: Suddenly there were no more enemy fighters around... I survived! YeeeHaaa! Everyone was landing so I thought that I should land my bird too. I went for the landing and while lining on the runway (I was coming from 90 degree angle) I made turn to line up (speed at the beginig of the turn was little more than 200) and then all of the sudden the plane just desintegrated probably due to excesive stress... :rolleyes:
So even if you are hit and no damage is shown on the list it IS a hit! So you can see that even in AH you can bring the bird home with enormous damage (although I did not actually made it to the field, my parts rained down on the runway) but its rare as it is in RL.
And now you can kill me if you want but I will reup again anyway :D
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
That's why this is Cannon's High instead of Aces High. An obsolete A/C should not have a positve K/D in a 1944 Plane set. IRL the Hurricane was no match for the A6M5 in any respect.
IMHO the gunnery model or at least the damage model is way to sensative in AH. I have documented encounters of F4U's and F6F's returning from missions with 40plus 20Mill holes from NIK2's. P-38's returning with giant AA holes in the wings. In AH just a few hits results in either instant death or catastrophic damage. Their are way to many snapshot kills in AH. It just didn't happen that way.
Does anyone other than me think that the limited damage model in the TA is more realistic?
Well, four 20mm Super Hizookas can make a Taylorcraft a dangerous opponent. What makes the Hurricane so deadly is the combination of several factors.
Obviously, the guns are a big one. However, the ammo loadout is quite small. As a stallfighter, only the Zeke is superior. Hurris are also very stable gun platforms. Ultimately, the greatest factors are tactics and pilot skill.
Tactics: I use the Hurricane to punish inattentive pilots. Being engrossed in a dogfight, many pilots fail to check their own tail frequently, if at all. I slide in from behind and whamo..... Likewise, the Hurri is a perfect choice for airfield capping. It's low speed maneuverbility allows you to easily gain position and tackle anything getting airborne. Catching them low and slow with those Hizookas is devastating. Catching them still on the runway is pathetically easy. I don't like vulching them on the runway. But,
if I'm the only aircraft over the field, that's exactly what I will do. Letting one get airborne means getting gangbanged in short order. Why? Because once one is up, you have to pay attention to it, not the runways or the planes spawning on them.
Skills: For furballing, the Hurri can handle Spitfires and a well flown Hurricane will give Zekes all they can stand. Hard break turns almost always thwart the BnZ artists. Good deflection shooting skills makes it dangerous for enemy planes to cross in front of the Hurri, regardless of angle. I enjoy the in-close "knife fights", which means I love nothing more than my target to engage in a maneuver fight. When you fly the slowest fighter in the planeset, one needs to recognize that virtually any other fighter (and some bombers) can chase you down. So, running is seldom a viable option unless someone can cover your retreat. Therefore, situational awareness is even more critical than normal. In all likelihood, the Hurricane pilot will have to fight his way free of the enemy. This means that the pilot had better be able to extract every ounce of capability from the airplane. Indeed, the Hurri is not for the faint of heart or those obsessed with their kill/death stats. Yet, flown to its full potential, it can prove able to handle any encounter within the ability of its pilot. So, if the K/D ratio seems high for an early-war fighter, perhaps this is the result of good pilots exploiting the strengths of the Hurricane, vs average pilots in aircraft superior in only speed, climb and acceleration, which is not enough when the fight gets close-in.
My regards,
Widewing
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Ammo goes farther, if you only use two guns at a time.
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Originally posted by popeye
Ammo goes farther, if you only use two guns at a time.
Or you can use four guns with shorter bursts which effectively saves as much ammo as using longer bursts of two guns.
The only plane that where I'll actually try to save ammo by switching between sets of guns would be the 262... because let's face it, you don't need to hit that Spit in front of you with 4 30mm rounds at once. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
*snip*
Does anyone other than me think that the limited damage model in the TA is more realistic?
I'm not sure whether its more realistic or not as that can be a bit of a slippery slope to travel.
However, it is infinitely more fun imo. You really have to work at a kill as well as out fly your adversary under a TA type format. That's not at all the case under AH's normal damage model. And the idea of rtb'n with a dozen kills in your A8 and 950mg/400can round remaining just wouldn't be doable...which is a good thing.
I don't think there's a snowflakes chance in hell it will ever be changed mind you. But I do agree that the current format is a, er, tad overdone.
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I have the most fun in a Hurricane IIC by far. You can pretty much do anything with this bird.
A2A fighting is easy. BnZ aircraft are easy to evade. TnB aircraft besides a zeke are easy to pop (as long as you dont get yourself in silly positions against another tight turner). High deflection shots are a breeze because of the excellent forward visibility (the head room aint too shabby either). The # of rounds per gun *is* a tad small, but that forces you to take better shots and use better judgement. The other day I heard someone on ch. 1 scream they got 4 kills in a Hurri IIc. They were excited due to the small magazine. You can squeeze 4 more kills out of less than 40 rounds of 20mm easily. The only way one could actually be shot down in a Hurri is if the numerical advantage is not there (ie gbang) or YOU make horrible horrible mistake that somehow puts you at the recieving end of the enemy's whoopin stick.
Hurri IIc is also an excellent Panzer buster. Load that puppy up with 2x500 or 2x1000 and off you go. Release them one at a time (one bomb for one GV) in a dive, pull out, set yourself up for a strafing run and use short bursts at a far convergence. Insta-GV-mince meat. The ENY and OBJ values are perfect as well. This thing can give you perks at about the same rate as a c202 depending on how you fly the IIc. The 4x20mm make keeling buffs a pleasure as well. Now if you don't mind.. please shut up!! :D We don't want the IIc to become popular at all :D. HTC DO NOT ALTER THIS AIRCRAFT (ENY values or anything) ONE BIT! :cool:. That is all, carry on.
oct out!
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Ive flown the Hurri maybe three times, Ive only been succesful in it once. And that was when, like Widewing said, Jumping people in the heat of battle when they are manuevering for a kill or plainly, not paying attention.
Im a regular flyer of the zeke, and yes Hurricanes are an ALMOST even match in a turn fight right on the deck.
What is really bizarre is the lack of sightings of the Hurri IIC in the MA. I believe the lack of numbers is a result of the Hurri's reputation of being a slow, handicapped sibling of the spitfire.
I would also like to state that, from my point of view, that out of all the cannon only birds, N1K2, Hurri IIC, F4U1C, Typhoon, and Tempest. I see the N1K2 the most, then the Typhoon. It seems like the F4U1C (and all the other models of the Hog) is/are a ghost of the MA.
What are the reasons behind the extinction of the F4U1C? besides the basic fact that they are perked.
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Originally posted by Nefarious
What is really bizarre is the lack of sightings of the Hurri IIC in the MA. I believe the lack of numbers is a result of the Hurri's reputation of being a slow, handicapped sibling of the spitfire.
I think there's a couple of important factors that limit the Hurri C's appeal.
Although it does pack the uber-Hispano's, it does have a pretty short clip. That's a non issue for anyone that only fires 2-4 bullets at a time, and scores hits (i.e. that's all you need to kill pretty much anything). However most are used to a bit more trigger work with their gunnery, possibly even using the tracer stream to lead onto target. The Hurri just isn't condusive to that.
It does have really short legs as well, once the drop tanks are gone. The fuel load is a biggy with this one. You can take drop tanks and 50% fuel and the plane will perform really well once those tanks are gone. However you won't have long before its rtb time. That 50% load just doesn't last. With 100% the plane's performance decreases markedly. You cans till get inside most planes, but the good stallfighters (Spit V, Zeke, F6 or 202 as examples) can give you lotsa grief then. So you gotta be kinda careful if taking that much fuel. Heh, upside is it will burn down to 50% in no time.
About the only thing you can catch is an IL2 or goonie...er, providing the goonie doesn't have a big lead on you ;). Everything else will easily outrun, outclimb or outdive you. I think that kinda frustrates folks who want to live and land kills. Pretty much anything can easily thwart that plan. Moreover it takes forever and a day to get anywhere.
I really like the plane though and spent a fair bit of time in it. I can see why others prefer planes like the Spit V though.
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Ive flown the Hurri maybe three times, Ive only been succesful in it once. And that was when, like Widewing said, Jumping people in the heat of battle when they are manuevering for a kill or plainly, not paying attention.
Im a regular flyer of the zeke, and yes Hurricanes are an ALMOST even match in a turn fight right on the deck.
What is really bizarre is the lack of sightings of the Hurri IIC in the MA. I believe the lack of numbers is a result of the Hurri's reputation of being a slow, handicapped sibling of the spitfire.
I would also like to state that, from my point of view, that out of all the cannon only birds, N1K2, Hurri IIC, F4U1C, Typhoon, and Tempest. I see the N1K2 the most, then the Typhoon. It seems like the F4U1C (and all the other models of the Hog) is/are a ghost of the MA.
What are the reasons behind the extinction of the F4U1C? besides the basic fact that they are perked.
Lately, I've been taking the Hurricane IIC right into the middle of furballs. I've developed the confidence in the Hurri to not only fight in such conditions, but kick some serious butt too. During one sortie tonight, I waded into a mixed gaggle of enemy fighters consisting of a Mustang, Tiffy, and two 109G-10s. the only survivor, a G-10, was last seen running for home trailing coolant.
Currently, I'm 43 and 13 with the Hurricane, and 7 of the deaths were from flak while attacking airfields, cities and a PT boat. Two of the remaining came when trying to take off from a field under attack.
I really enjoy flying the decidedly non-uber fighters. Using the Ki-61, I'm 52 and 18. With the Yak-9T, I'm 14 and 3. So, this totals 109 kills for 34 deaths. or 3.2 kills per death. What this establishes is that when a relatively low performing fighter is carefully flown, it can maintain a very good K/D ratio, even against the super-duper dweeb machines.
My regards,
Widewing
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4xhispano...no wonder good KD. Take off..spray all over and something starts to fall out from the sky. Voila! KD positive. :)
Cannons High! :D good one.
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use short bursts at a far convergence. Insta-GV-mince meat.
Hispano Suiza II 20mm should be very uneffective against PzKpfw-IVh's armor. As Tony Williams mentioned It can penetrate max 20mm armor at 90 degrees at close ranges. Only parts of Pz-IVH with under 20mm armor are top turret (15mm) and deck(12mm). This means that even at 45 dergree dive changes to penetration are none. At very high angle dive(near 90dgr) penetrations should be possible if top turret/deck is hit.
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Hi Widewing,
If you require any help with your site I'll be happy to help out a bit. I'm currently writing an article about Australia's role in the air war over SE Asia and Australia itself. I'm focussing(surprise surprise) on the Boomerang and Wirraway, but mentions go to other aircraft used like the Buffalo's, Beaufighters, Spits et al.
If that sounds any good I can forward you a copy when its complete.
Cheers,
Gavor
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Just a FYI guys, but quoting K/D from the expanded stats page is somewhat misleading.
For instance if I say I'm 14 and 4 for a K/D of 3.5 in the Fw190D9 (which is what the expanded format scores page lists for me as of this post) thats not really accurate because it doesn't count in your Bails, Captures, Ditchs, and Disco's.
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I would love to see the Hurricane with 8 303's as well as the Me110 for a great historical matchup.....
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Ya can't compare the stats in reality versus AH...
If we all had death to fear, the style of fighting would be more suitable to runstangs and D9's.
Lo and Slo was a bad thing in reality... it isn't neccessarily in the MA where players take things further than any combat pilot would have.
The HurriC may have been an outdated obsolete design, but the guns were NOT.
SKurj