Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Naudet on February 21, 2002, 05:46:30 AM
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As it is now its a pure joke.
How can GVs be nearly undestroyable and made of paper at the same time?
Whenever i am in a GV i get killed or lose an important part with the very 1st pings.
No matter if 75mm or 0.5 cals.
If i drive the stupid GV i will die, to anyone that gets close enough to bring in a few pings.
Also against other GVs i am not playing with the same cards.
Today i fought against Fariz at long distance. We both in PZRs. If he hit me 2 times, i go BOOM. If i hit him 5 times nothing, or he is just trailing smoke.
That cant be true, how can the same guns, used by different players lead to so different results?
Btw Fariz was alone neutralizing sometimes 3 of our GVs at the same time.
I think HTC must really look into the GV modeling. I dont think Fariz did anything wrong, its just the bad GV modeling.
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Yup, specially the 50 cal which kills tanks HO.
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I have had the same incounters with GV's. Ex: In a Panzer and took 5 round to kill a M-3. I tried HE and AP rounds. No way even for a sim that's correct. One 88mm round would completely destroy and armor car or half track.( Dont belive me? read the book "Death Traps") Also i dont see a differance with the Ap and HE, both, seem to me , does same amout of damage when fired at a hanger, take quit a few rounds more than need IMHO. The only true way to kill a Tiger tank was to shoot him directly in the arss point blank. Even the Sherman was no match for Tigers. Ture tankers or anyone with a hobbie for WWI and WWII tanks would agree. Of course this is a Flying sim NOT a Tank sim, but some updating is needed to the GV's
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I have had the same incounters with GV's. Ex: In a Panzer and took 5 round to kill a M-3. I tried HE and AP rounds. No way even for a sim that's correct. One 88mm round would completely destroy and armor car or half track.( Dont belive me? read the book "Death Traps") Also i dont see a differance with the Ap and HE, both, seem to me , does same amout of damage when fired at a hanger, take quit a few rounds more than need IMHO. The only true way to kill a Tiger tank was to shoot him directly in the arss point blank. Even the Sherman was no match for Tigers. Ture tankers or anyone with a hobbie for WWI and WWII tanks would agree. Of course this is a Flying sim NOT a Tank sim, but some updating is needed to the GV's
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Ox:
There are no tigers in this game. What are you talking about?
Hooligan
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sorry i meant the German panzer tank.
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How about a "Please" in here somewhere?
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Please go away if you have nothing to contribute.
How's that? :)
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ROFL touche.
How's this for contribution:
Perhaps you would stand a better chance of getting HTC's attention if you were to respectfully request and investigation into what you perceive to be a problem.
I only say this because by and large I agree that the GV's are a bit suspect at this time. I don't have any real evidence of this, but I've started to take a look at it. (Im more concerned with the anti Tank .50's myself)
Anyhow, since I started to work on the problem, it made me sad that someone else came in here and put forth what I felt was a poor argument, laden with what appeared to me to be DEMANDS and not requests. Evidence to support an AFU GV model was also suspect. 5 rounds don't kill, but 2 rounds do? What are the Variables? Where were the hits? What Ranges? ect.
I would hate to see this topic get struck down because of poor argumentation and obtuse syntax.
Just my contribution
-Sikboy
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I truly think there has been enough "squeaking" about the GV's damage model and armament effectiveness for HTC to take notice. They'll get it fixed, when is the only question...and that's one answer you'll have to wait for since HTC doesn't telegraph their bug, DM or ammo fixes untill they are released. My suggestion is to sit back and have fun with what you can while HTC's hard at work doing that voodoo that they do so well :D
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why dont HTC make the entire panzer and the hull section of the ostwind impervious to small caliber fire apart from the grill on the back which, if hit enough would kill the engine , possibly cause fire that ignites ammo (just to keep quiet all the 'they used to bounce 50 cals off the floor and hit the underside' group :))>COFF BS<
They seemed to be happy to have the LW flyers have their 20mm cannons be useless against tanks for over a year so why should those that fly 50caliber planes complain?
The way i see it the panzer is the ONLY Gv that should feel pretty much totally safe vs almost all aircraft guns in the game, apart from those cailbers that were DESIGNED to kill tanks like the 23mm iL2 cannons.
ALL other caliber cannons should require the CORRECT angle of attack at VERY close distances like it says they needed in the history books.That means less than 500 meters. Most 20mm will penetrate armour if they have the specialised AP ammo, are fired at almost 90 degree to the armour plate,and are fired within an effective range, which incidently is not outside 1k like i see in AH often. (ok im not an expert, Tony Williams take over here ;))
Ive had a p51 dive at my panzer fire from 1.5k to 1.1k before pulling up, hitting me with about 5 hits and I lost top mg,turret gun,and tracks.Now Im not annoyed anymore because now i expect this silly damage but it NEEDS looking into.
we dont want people saying 'yeah AH is great , but the ground vehicles are unrealistic and no fun', we want tank lovers to come and drive the damn things! :D
personally i think the answer is to make the killing of GVs a SKILL.
give use timed fuse bombs so we can perform the tank busting that is shown in books.
Bombs of 250lbs or more hitting next to a tank(within reason) should throw it up in the air like a 'box of matches' just like it is described the tiger tanks were when the allies bombed them during the Normandy battle, and tiger tanks were something rediculous like 40 tonnes? MUCH heavier than m16s,m8s or even the panzerIV.
Rockets as you can see in those famous typhoon films are no paultry weapon either! They threw up huge amounts of earth in those films and i feel they should do much more damage than they do now in AH.
so lets make it right.If someone bothers to take the RIGHT weapon(ie bombs and rockets) for the job of killing heavily armoured vehicles then fair enough they get kills. If they are skilled shots hitting the top of turrets or the rear of the tank, or they fire at extreme close range with 20-37mm then give them the damage they deserve.But please dont allow any old joe shoot off 20 50 cals and write off a tank.
M16s,M3s,ostwinds turret,even M8s are no match for a machine gun that fires inside their protective body from above(ie where the crew are manning guns etc and are almost totally expossed) and so SHOULD be easier to kill but med-heavy tanks? No No No.
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5 rounds don't kill, but 2 rounds do? What are the Variables? Where were the hits? What Ranges? ect.
Its very simple, range and attack angle was the same. And this on more than one occasion. About 10-12 of them now. Both me and my opponent stood still, facing Front-Front, hitting at the same distance, and i guess we both used AP rounds (otherwise the HE would be the better ones, cause i used AP). And in all those cases, he got me with 2-3 rounds, while he never blew up, and showed damage only after 4-6 hits.
I only do real ground war since about 3 weeks, but in this weeks it was obvious that there was something wrong with the GV modeling. I mentioned that in post before.
And i dont use a please, cause even to the most gentle requests about GVs i never got any answer yet from HTC.
@Hazed: I totaly agree with you, GV killing should be a skill. As it is now, the GV-Killers are worthless. Why should i up a slow IL2 or Hurri, with whom i have to close to D300 to get a kill, when i can use a 0.5 cal armed bird, and kill from D500+.
As i see it, the PZR should be immune to anything smaller than 20mms. Maybe the top MG can be the only part that gets damaged by small caliber guns, but thats all.
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Hehe, I got a film of my M8 at A30 in Baltic shooting shell after shell after AP shell at a flaktank and having most of them BOUNCE off. I managed to get in to point blank range and hit a flak on the side 2 times and it blew up (I think 2nd shell hit the turret.. "player" kill"?).
Now, the funny thing is when I ran out of AP shells I went down to the spawn point and used my SINGLE 50 cal gun to disable and kill several flaktanks and 1 panzer at d100 ranges.. when I ran out of 50 cal I used the .303 mg.. and killed 3 more flaktanks with it (303 rounds firing at the turret and WHAM! turret was dead).
The 50 cal was easy to de-track a tank with (as it should), but it also whacked Pzr turrets, which it shouldnt do. The Flaktanks I shot with the .50 I fired at the turret in many occassions started smoking.. I dunno if it was engine damage or turret out, but the flaktank .efluffied soon after that.
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And who says 50 cals aren't overmodelled? ;)
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HTC doeasn't care about GV modeling accuracy or logic. Didn't HiTech or Pyro hack some game in the past so he could lob tank shells miles and miles with pinpoint accuracy? Is the type who you think will deliver a strong GV model? :) I hear that WW2OL game is good for tanks. AH is for fighters. Leave it at that.
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Beside the strange modelling of damage (AH is a game , not reality, so I do not bother) I noticed several times, that with a relog my hits and kills rose significant.
This can't be explained by internet connection alone.
I always had the strange feeling, that you get a "luck value" , which calculate the chance, that your shot create damage at your target.
Just like Dungeon&Dragons :p
I think everybody had noticed that on one day you hit evrything you aim at and on other days you get several hits with 30mm on a fighter without inflicting any damage.
Maybe I should put my voodoo spell doll aside while flying AH ;)
Tofri
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Originally posted by Sikboy
Anyhow, since I started to work on the problem, it made me sad that someone else came in here and put forth what I felt was a poor argument, laden with what appeared to me to be DEMANDS and not requests. Evidence to support an AFU GV model was also suspect. 5 rounds don't kill, but 2 rounds do? What are the Variables? Where were the hits? What Ranges? ect.
-Sikboy [/B]
I think your taking it a bit personal. it was not meant to be a argument. just talkin' but if u want a argument. i'll go elseware. I wrote the thread just to say updated the GV would be ever so nice. (please) but if it a hassale dont worry. next time i will give all the information that i can with ranges and hits and stuff. at the time I did not see it nessary to type all that , i was just agreeing with the other guy.
So.. to sum up sorry fer gettin' on your socks in a knot.:(
Anyway we pay to play. so please take it with a grain of salt
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I agree with most of the previously posted opinions. I enjoy a frequent GV sortie and consider myself adept in this venture. However, I have noticed some very glaring errors similar to those already mentioned. On several occasions, my Panzer has been killed by a rouge M-16... How?!?! Allied medium tanks could barely kill one of these mosters. I personally have killed a Panzer in an M-3 - he wasn't smoking before we started so was mostly undamaged. I was point-blank, but that is irrelevant. He hit me two or three times with his main gun. How is this possible? A 75mm AP cannon round doesn't annihalate a puny M-3, and the M-3's single 50cal explodes the enema Panzer. When a panzer and a M-16 tangle, both in range, it's a toss-up who will win in here. This IMHO is a glaring problem that requires immediate attention. When this stuff happens, I jus quit playing for awhile because a game that is frustrating is NOT fun. :mad:
HTC needs to make GV realism a priority. Perhaps giving them immunity to certain weapon types...
Hopefully the next patch will address some of these issues.
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Originally posted by TheOxman
So.. to sum up sorry fer gettin' on your socks in a knot.:(
Anyway we pay to play. so please take it with a grain of salt
I should apologize Ox. My socks are not nearly as knoted at they might seem, and I think that you're missunderstanding the nature of the term "argument" as I used it. I didn't mean that you and I (or anyone else here in the forum for that matter) should engage in an argument over the Ground Vehicle modeling. This is especially true since most people who have posted here agree that it seems fishy (or outright hosed). If it's just talk, then it's just talk. That's fine. If anyone want's something done about this though, it will take an argument, consisting of contentions, supported by data. Present this argument to HTC and if they consider it to be valid you'll have better luck getting a change made. In my vision of a perfect world this is how things get resolved. The alternative is to get a vocal minority and make a lot of noise instead of making a lot of sense. Sometimes this can work in a pay/play community.
-Sikboy
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HE should be much more efficient against halftracks than AP. Even near miss with 75mm HE will destroy m3 beyond use. AP will have much less effect due to thin armor it will just pass through without making much shrapnel. HE doesn't even need direct hit to be fatal.
If this is not case in AH...I think you could as well have "health bar" for GVs:)
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lol
snuck up on panzer/m3 in our town. I'm an M8. Shot the panzer once, track falls, smoke billows. 2 more hits he's gone.
shot the m3 (same range). nothing. shot him 10 more times. nothing. wound up killin couple troops, then the m3 kilt me with his top gun. geez.
russell in texas
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are you guys saying that 1,000 rounds of fifty API put into the back and sides of a flimsy panzer should have no effect? Shouldn't it kill the engine or tear off a track? I Shoot at a lot of panzers for fun with fifties and I have only "killed" a couple. I empty my entire ammo load from a Corsair into the sides and back of the tank at 500 down to 100 yards coming in at 300+ MPH.
What I haven't figured out is how the panzer MG fires at you while you are litghting it up. How do open boxes like the ostie keep from having the gun crew killed with 100 or so API's rattling around in the open gun position?
lazs
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Oh... and if the GV's must spawn a couple of blocks away from the enemy airfield.... shouldn't you be able to "kill" the spawn point? I mean, they can blow up a hanger but you can't do anything to them? Same for PT's. Shouldn't the GV's be fighting other GV's instead of leantoo's?
lazs
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Yes Lazs.. that is what they are saying. Yes Lazs, they are also right.
Even the Panzer IV, which wasn't all that heavily armored, was armored heavily enough EVERYWHERE to stop .50 caliber or 20mm Hispano (unless the Hispano had AP rounds, which none did in Europe), and Mg151/20 rounds (which seems to be modelled correctly).
I posted about this in a different thread a while back, and Tony Williams was kind enough to respond with exactly how much penetration a 20mm Hispano, 20mm Mg151/20, 15mm Mg151/15, and 12.7mm .50 caliber API round would have. For the 20mm rounds and the .50 caliber, the result was less than 13mm (I believe the exact range was 7-13mm, with the lower numbers being more common) of armor, under IDEAL conditions. Ideal conditions (and I asked) are zero sloping (i.e. the bullet hits at a 90 degree angle to the armor), and a range of less than 300 yards. The only places that had less than 13mm of armor according to the sources I checked were the top decking of the hull, and the top of the turret. The decking was not sloped, I think the top of the turret was marginally sloped.
So, for a plane to have a CHANCE of penetrating the armor, it would have to be in a vertical dive and less than 300 yards away from the roof of the tank. So, to answer your question, your typical U.S. plane with the .50 caliber API rounds WOULD have a chance at actually 'doing something' to the tank, it would just end the strafing run as a smoking hole in the ground.
As far as the .50 caliber (or anything else of any caliber less than 23mm), you SHOULD be able to knock out the tracks on the Panzer. What you should NOT be able to do is hurt anything else.
The M8 is even worse in my opinion. The Panzer at least (for me) can take a .50 caliber strafe for a few runs before exploding, the M8 will go up after a single run, every time.
The armor model for the Panzer and M8 REALLY needs to be looked at. The good news is that I think HTC has it on their list, because it has been such a prevelant complaint for a while now. Besides, Aces High is a game about airplanes, not tanks. Even though tanks are in it, I'd expect them to play second fiddle to the airplanes, and their problems are naturally of lower importance than a problem with one of the airplanes. They'll get to it when they are able, I'm sure.
EDIT: I remembered it wrong. The Hispano could penetrate a maximum of 20mm at zero slope from 200 yards. The 5-13mm range is for a 40 to 60 degree dive from 300 yards away. The .50 had similar stats in both categories, with the Mg151/20 being worse and the Mg151/15 slightly better than the Hispano and .50.
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So in your analisis urchin the tank should die when attacked at those angles?
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I'm not sure if it would die or not, to be honest. I don't know a whole lot about tanks, and I don't know how sophisticated the damage model is for tanks. All I do know is that according to the charts that I found for the Panzer IV H's armor and Tony Williams penetration value, the only shot a strafing plane would have would be on the tracks of the tank, unless he came in with a vertical dive (or caught the panzer climbing a hill) and fired from a distance of less than 300 yards. In that case some bullets would undoubtedly make it through the top turret and decking armor- what damage they would do then I honestly don't know. I don't know enough about tanks to be able to say "Well, if the .50 round impacted the rear upper decking on the right side, the shot would probably hit the engine and disable it"... I have no idea where the engine even IS on a Panzer IV.
I'm also not sure if your damage model for tanks would even support a hit that got through the armor but didn't actually hit anything. Hell, I'm not sure that if a hit actually got through the armor if it is even possible that it wouldnt hurt anything (with armor and bullet chips ricocheting around the hull and all).
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The only places that had less than 13mm of armor according to the sources I checked were the top decking of the hull, and the top of the turret. The decking was not sloped, I think the top of the turret was marginally sloped.
PzKpfw IVh (thickness/slope)
top turret 15mm
top deck 12mm
FRONT - turret 50mm/10, upper hull 80mm/14, lower hull 80mm/14
SIDE - turret 30mm/26, upper hull 30/0, lower hull 30/0
REAR - turret 30mm/15, upper hull 20/11, lower hull 20/8
(+ armored skirts)
I can see .50 cal knocking out some HTs, but these tanks are virtually immune to .50cal fire.
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As far as the .50 caliber (or anything else of any caliber less than 23mm), you SHOULD be able to knock out the tracks on the Panzer. What you should NOT be able to do is hurt anything else.
Well i never read actual combat record of .50cals tearing of tracks from panzers. .50cal could puncture HTs and vehicles with under 10mm side armor. Penetration of .50cal doesnt make shooting tracks off from panzer too easy.
It's like talking about shooting down the 75L48 barrel. Was it possible, yes. Was it common, no.
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The Hispano could penetrate a maximum of 20mm at zero slope from 200 yards. The 5-13mm range is for a 40 to 60 degree dive from 300 yards away. The .50 had similar stats in both categories, with the Mg151/20 being worse and the Mg151/15 slightly better than the Hispano and .50.
What do you mean by 5-13mm penetrarion range? Penetration is 5mm at 40dgr dive engle? 13mm at 60dgr dive angle?
I would like to know how aircraft velocity effects penetration. Maybe it's time to ask Tony for help?
So in your analisis urchin the tank should die when attacked at those angles?
Yes, im not urchin, but there should be change of top deck penetration and KO in dives under 300yards and over 40degree angle. Top turret penetration and KO should be possible under 250 yards with over 60 degree dive.
If someone knows how to count this with slope multiplier we could have exact numbers for all different angles since we know (maximum penetration of 20mm at zero slope from 200 yards)
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That 5-13mm figure came from Tony Williams. I don't know how he got the figure. I was under the impression that it was just an average figure, with the penetration getting better as the angle of impact moved closer to 90 degrees.
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here is .50 cal penetration graph against 15mm plate (PzIV top turret).
conclusions:
top turret (15mm) penetrations
65-70degree angle or more, under 250m distance
at 90degrees up to 400m distance
my rough estimates for top deck(12mm) penetration
45 degree angle or more, under 300m distance
60 degree angle or more, under 500m distance
at 90 degrees up to 600m distance
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WTG Illo, Nice presentation. Facts, analysis and everything.
-Sikboy
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well golly, i ain't no physicist and i've never driven a real tank.
but hell, i've grazed a LOT of trees in a chevy pickup. we're talkin just brushing against outer branches. my chevy never blows up, but the darn panzers sure do. amazed krauts ever took em into the woods, must have been horrible, all those tanks blowing up every time they contact a tree limb.
russell in texas
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doesn't 300 mph plane speed increase the penetration of fifties? Fifties penetrate very well at angles as the illustration shows. How thick is the armor on the back of a panzer?
lazs
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lazs
REAR - turret 30mm/15, upper hull 20/11, lower hull 20/8
no change penetrating that without 23mm or 37mm.
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Why i have to die with my il2 (plane do it to kill pnzers) or F-8, or Hurri when he ping me with his stupid .50 cal?
Why a osti can rip a wing with and only impact of his 37mm vs armored planes as il2 or F8? Is it a cannon or it's a laser?
Why panzers or osties never blow when rockets impact near? I saw it more of 10 impacts near a ostie he only smoke.
Why do you need direct hit with bombs?
Stop complain about your armour.
Why is it more effective 37mm vs building that HE ammo?
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Kinda irritates me........no, it pisses me off when I get in a GV and encounter another GV and we engage.
I've noticed that I can hit a Pnzr, Osty, M16, or M3 multiple times (more than 4 hits) with the cannon in my M8 with no effect, yet I can hop into the commander's position and open up with the MG there and POP! they start smoking after a 2 or 3 second burst.
What's up HTC?
Last couple days I've had multi-kill sorties in the M8, but about 75% of my kills came from the machine gun position! We're talking armored tanks and Ostwinds here, not just thin metal M16's and M3's! I'm not sure what is up with the weapons modelling versus the GV damage models, but right now it is SO screwed up it is a joke!
Last sortie I did last night was at A25, enemy GV's spawned just north of the city there, so I hop into an M8 and race out there to engage them.
Get close enough to start firing, see an M3 at the city, his troops are out, range is 700 yards thereabouts........I hop into the turret and put 5 rounds amongst the paratroops WITH NO EFFECT! Swing the gun 10 degrees to the right and pop off 4 rounds into the tail of the M3, no effect there either. Jump into the MG, start hammering away at the troops and the M3, POP! POW! my M8 starts leaning to the side, turret is out, MG is ded, I say to hell with it and exit the vehicle, M3 driver gets a kill.
Gameplay concessions I can understand, but not to this extent. The PNZR ought to be impervious to MG fire pretty much. Minor damage at the most.
Osty about the same, you should be able to disable the turret, but not kill the thing with just a MG.
M16, you ought to be able to chew it and the M3 up with a MG, maybe not blow them up, but damn sure disable them.
M8? Am not sure about the armor on my favorite GV, but it too is highly susceptible to MG fire. Heck, it can be knocked out by an errant sheep turd, but I am almost positive that it was designed to stop the average MG round, which it does not right now.
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RatPenat:
1 - Dying to a panzer MGs is even more stupid than dying to a 50", cause the panzers only have 7.7 cal Mgs.
2 - If the 37mm ammo is HE, I see no way to survive a direct impact. But if flak ammo is HE, I see no way to kill panzers with it.
3 - About the rockets, only a direct impact should be able to do any damage to a panzer. If these rockets are HE, that is, usefull against non armoured structures, I see no way to kill a panzer even with a direct rocket hit. In the case they use a HEAT charge, then a direct hit is needed to kill the vehicle.
4 - About bomb hits, I suppose that general purpose bombs have little chances to kill a panzer without direct hits unless 500Lbs or larger used and very close impacts. The fragments of the bomb will have little chance of penetrating heavy armour, perhaps a tremendous shock wave may shake the tank and damage some parts.
5 - About the 37mm against buildings, this is a mistery. Is it AP or HE? Based on the damage done to the planes I think it is HE, but being able to kill panzers I may be AP... ...a mistery.
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3 - About the rockets, only a direct impact should be able to do any damage to a panzer. If these rockets are HE, that is, usefull against non armoured structures, I see no way to kill a panzer even with a direct rocket hit. In the case they use a HEAT charge, then a direct hit is needed to kill the vehicle.
Im not so sure about that...ive seen film where 3 t-34s are thrown in air by burst of one 1000kg bomb(i think)
Also ive seen pictures of Tigers thrown over from bomb/rocket blast after air attack. That thing weights over 60tons so i wouldnt be suprised of 25ton osti or pziv being killed by near miss.
(http://www.achtungpanzer.com/images/tiger4.jpg)
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500kg is an 1100lb bomb...
SKurj
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I've never driven a real GV, so I can't really comment on AH's acuracy.
Regardless, in AH, I do know contact angle does take into effect.
It's MUCH easier to kill a panzer with it taking a blast from the side. It also has heavy armor on the front, machine gun fire just bounces off of it.
Now, I've gotten pretty darn good with the M16 & the Osterd, or what ever the hell it's called.
With the Osterd, yes, with a well aimed (well, lucky) shot, you can take most fighers with 1 or 2 shots.
Even the bombers can't take many shots from the Osterd, that's a huge freaking rifle mounted on top that thing. :)
I really like it though, and I have ticked a good number of people off by shooting them down with that thing.
If someone is vulching people a lot, I just hope into a Osterd and shoot them up real good everytime they spawn.
I hate whiners, so I don't complain, I just wait until their about 20 feet off the ground then pound a couple rounds into them. They usally get the point after a few times.