Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Ripsnort on February 21, 2002, 09:30:14 AM
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Just curious, seems like after 9/11, its a fade. I've flown the American flag outside both my homes and off the balcony of every apartment I've ever lived in since I moved out on my own at age 18. I name a boat I had "The American Dream" in red/white and blue letters and naturally when we took it out of it slip we always flew the flag off the stern.
Not that it makes me any better than anyone else, just curious if you've always been patriotic? Dad was in the 101st Airborn and as I grew up, we always had a flag out, 24/7/365 *Yes, even with a light cast on it at night*.
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Patriotic? You mean rah rah overtly patriotic? You know... kinda like high school/college spirit without the high school/college? Drape yourself in the red/white/blue, etc... etc... etc...
Never.
BUT...
I served my country for 10 years in the USN.
I vote.
I pay my taxes (on time).
I work for the Dept. of Defense.
I support and defend the Constitution.
I stand for the National Anthem, remove my hat, and sing along.
Each in our own way, Rip. :)
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
BUT...
I served my country for 10 years in the USN.
I vote.
I pay my taxes (on time).
I work for the Dept. of Defense.
I support and defend the Constitution.
I stand for the National Anthem, remove my hat, and sing along.
Each in our own way, Rip. :)
That works for me! Epecially this part: "I stand for the National Anthem, remove my hat, and sing along."
I was just remembering the Rosanne Barr thing where she spit after the National Anthem.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I served my country for 10 years in the USN.
I vote.
I pay my taxes (on time).
I work for the Dept. of Defense.
I support and defend the Constitution.
I stand for the National Anthem, remove my hat, and sing along.
take out the military service and the dept of defense job, and that's me. Singing the National Anthem is good, but I prefered being on the field playing it, and hearing the people in the stands singing along. :)
Oh, and I've always tried to watch every US soccer match that's shown on TV, and have seen both the men's and women's teams play in person, wearing my US jersey and waving a little US flag the whole time! :D
and of course... Go Team USA Hockey! can ya believe it? 22 years to the date of the Miracle on Ice, and we're playing Russia in the semifinals of the Olympics!
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My wife and I visited some friends in upper state New York about a month after Sept 11. There were US flags EVERYWHERE. We asked our friends after we arrived if it was alway like this. Apparently not.
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Thrawn, in our 60 home platte we live in, I counted about 4 flags displayed on houses 365 days a year...now about 4 houses DON'T have a flag, its just the opposite. That's why I'm polling the flag wavers out there today.
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Guess I should add... I don't own ANY flags.
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I know I'm a liberal scumbag but......I still get choked up watching those montages with America the Beautiful playing in the background. I play "Proud to Be an American" really loud on my car CD. I stand and sing the National Anthem and I look around to see which twinks don't. I do get that rah rah feeling and I just don't understand why everyone doesn't. I love my Country for many reasons, but most of all because I am free to be a liberal scumbag.
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Tahgut, I have many liberal friends that fly the American flag. Its meaning shows no political boundaries within the circle of Freedom.
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Seven years U.S. Army Reserve as a 19DH, from a middle class suburban family at a time when nobody had to join up, or particularly wanted to (had to take vacation time a couple of years in order to afford summer camp :() I Vote, write letters to the editor, work to educate myself on how the government works and what's behind our domestic and foreign policy so I can make my own decisions at the ballot box. Have voted for both Republican and Democratic candidates, and haven't been happy about the choices for quite some time.
I respect the Constitution above all else, would still fight and die to defend the Constitution and the rights it stands for. Haven't seen a need to buy a flag. I love the symbol, but, in the end, I find patritotism that's focused too shallowly on sounbites and symbolism to be somewhat disturbing. The Nazi's had one hell of a flag too.
Charon
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Son of a WW2 vet career AF pilot.
Brother a Viet Nam era volunteer AF pilot.
Self a Viet Nam era volunteer AF pilot.
Previously and always quietly patriotic.
I won't wave the flag in your face.. but I'll be the guy with his hand on your shoulder if you're trying to disrespect it. ;)
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Was born this way! Born with ski's on my feet, always celebrating 17. May, proud of our history with Vikings and all, served my country for 4 years.
Norway!!!
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I cant say always.
When this country made a draft dodging, talking turd, the commander and chief, I said to hell with it, and just went about my own business.
Yet, I found that when 9.11 happened I was ready to fight again. There is a sucker born every minute, I guess.
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Well I was not raised in North America, but I am patriotic to my land.
And I will stand for the hymn of any country that stands for freedom and justice, not just the US.
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I tend to support what I think is good about American, and ignore, or try to change, what I think isn't good. So, although I think I am a good citizen, I guess I'm not a patriot.
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I had an old flag I'd put out for holidays
9/12 - I bought a new one and haven't taken it down since, five neighbors did the same
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Good thread, Rip. Guess I feel a little stronger than most on the subject. The typical response to 9-11 tends to be to buy some flags, attend some prayer vigils, get teary eyed at the sound of "God Bless America", then sell off the old portfolio, delay major purchases and cancel travel plans. What's wrong with this picture?
Had a bunch of super patriots back in '65 when the gummint was whipping up interest in SEA too. Man, I was scared they would make that part of the world safe for Democracy before I got a chance to participate! Got a big send-off from family and friends all full of love for God and Country. Story changed a bit by the time I came back in '68. Changed, in fact, to the point that I turned around and went back for a couple more years.
I only hope the current crop of patriots still feel that way when things get real ugly over there and the press decides we ain't the good guys anymore.
GronK
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Well said Gronk.
I think the level of feeling stems more from the era / place of your upbringing than anything else. Mine comes from my parents who were both part of what has been called "The Greatest Generation". They had it in spades, and passed it on to me. I don't think I succeeded with my kids to the same extent.
Then again, I don't remember feeling this way at 13 either! :cool:
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This is kind of an interesting question for me to answer, because I'm not entirely sure what qualifies as patriotic. Let's see, I love living here, and though I feel we've made and continue to make mistakes, that we're generally a country full of good people, and we're basically on the right track, at least trying to do what's good. I love this country because I am free to express what we are doing wrong, and what we are doing right, and sometimes even what we could do to be more right
The flag and the national anthem both do not have any particular meaning to me. They are representative of our country, and beyond that I don't see the big deal. BUT - I stand for the national anthem, and I respect the flag. There are rules and conventions in place, and I believe that those should be respected, because they are very important to many, even if I don't care one way or the other.
I'm unsure of what to do when asked to recite the Pledge of Allegiance. Not because I dislike the US, but because nationalism in general makes me hesitate. Looking back on this century, it seems that nationalism (extreme nationalism, not moderate nationalism) has been one of the great reasons for the spread of evil in the World Wars and other conflicts. I feel that my solidarity and support are universal, and don't like the idea of pledging that solely to one country. I have no problem with people who do recite it; it doesn't do any harm, and it doesn't mean that they are exclusively giving their support to people in the US. It doesn't even hurt much to say it, but on some level I'm uncomfortable with it and prefer to avoid it.
But when I'm watching the Olympics, I cheer on the Americans. Heck, whenever there's some kind of competition on the national level, the Americans are my favorites. I feel closer to Americans than other people after all, it seems, at least in a cultural sense. After all, they're the people in the world most likely to understand me and know where I'm from. It's part of being a people and a cultural, and that is the healthy part of patriotism/nationalism. It genuinely made me proud to see Derek Parra get his silver and gold medals. It makes me proud to know that America was the first country to reach to the moon, without thinking about the political climate of the time.
I know that I will never serve in the armed forces, and would hesitate about getting a job in the Defense Department. Armed conflict doesn't agree with me. This sometimes (read: often) gets interpreted as me being spineless or anti-American, while I feel that nothing could be further from the truth.
So am I a patriot? Someone else will have to tell me, because I don't know. But when it comes down to it, I certainly love my country and and feel very fortunate to have the priviledge of being born and raised here. So I figure, since I haven't seemed to have much good to say for the last several months, that America definitely deserves to hear me say "God Bless the USA!" Because a blessing will do much more to right what's wrong than a curse.
S!
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How do you define patriotism? Flying flags doesn't make one more patriotic any more than wearing a cross makes one more religious.
I'm on Sandman's level. Don't own a flag, have no decals on my car, no stick pin in my lapel- but I love my country as much as anyone does. And anyone who says I don't will have to fight Sandman.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Dad was in the 101st Airborn and as I grew up, we always had a flag out, 24/7/365 *Yes, even with a light cast on it at night*.
How old is he? Did he serve in Nam? Currious 'cause I was a Screaming Eagle also. Yes, I've flown our flag since 1964...even had a flagpole in my front yard for a while I don't fly it at night but I used to have my own raising the colors ceremony every morning just after my seperation from the Army. Neighbors thought I was a fruitcake, but I figured, screw them, they don't know and probably couldn't understand why I did it unless they took a walk in my jungle boots 'tween '67 and '72.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Flying flags doesn't make one more patriotic any more than wearing a cross makes one more religious.
Excellent point.
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I personally am more alarmed of our erosion of our civil rights. Also a question for our flag waving 'patriots':
Do you support one's right to burn our flag in protest? (Mind you I am not saying you wouldn't be pissed at seeing our flag being burned, just supporting one's RIGHT to do so.)
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Elfenwolf, Sandman - though flying a flag doesn't make one more patriotic, wouldn't you say that someone flying a flag is more likely to be patriotic?
wspnr, from my perspective, that is someone's constitutional right. It certainly isn't a very nice or respectful thing to do, but trying to outlaw it would be very wrong, IMHO. Actually, IMO since as you all know, my opinion is never humble ;).
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I generally believe in everyone being able to do their own thing as long as it doesn't hurt other people. I absolutely love and believe in personal freedoms and liberty.
I also don't put too much concern into symbols: i.e. I don't find Nazi swastikas or rebel flags to be anything worth getting worked up over, unless they are specifically being used to represent ideas I am opposed to. I tend to believe that someone can appreciate the superficial appearances of symbols without actually liking or supporting the ideas they may have once symbolized. Evil or not, real or not, Darth Vader and Nazi SS uniforms simply look cool. I think the Germans understood that pride helps make a soldier strong, and a cool looking uniform helps build that pride. Whereas the US Navy likes making enlisted sailors wear work uniforms that are almost identical to the clothes issued to convicts. They are so ashamed of dungarees, that you aren't allowed to wear them off base, you have to change into a dress uniform.
Regardless of their symbolic meaning, I happen to like flags in general and own the rebel battle flag, the British flag, and a USSR hammer and sickle flag (notably each nation represented was defeated by the United States :) ). But I don't display them outside. The British and rebel flag hang from my bedroom closet doors, but I don't have anywhere to put the Soviet flag.
I have two United States flags from the Navy: one issued to me as I re-enlisted in the crew's mess of my submarine and one that was a spare for my 2nd submarine. I have a third one which was a gift that is the cheaper kind people get to put out for holidays.
I don't display any of my US flags.... yet. When I finish school and get a house, I will do what I have seen many veterans do: put up a tall bonifide flagpole with appropriate lighting so it can be properly displayed 24/7.
When someone asks if I think anyone should be allowed to burn the US flag in protest, my patriotism comes to the surface full force.
I do not support much of what the federal government does, but to me that flag does not represent the federal government or anything else anyone in this country should be protesting. It represents the freedom so many other Americans have fought and died for. Make an effigy of the President and burn it, burn the rebel flag, burn anything you want, but not the US flag.
Yeah, you should have the right to burn the US flag but you should also be deported to a country where it is a common practice so you can enjoy life with others who feel the same way.
But if you must protest by doing something to the flag, I do prefer burning to walking on it or worse yet deficating or urinating.
Fortunately for both them and me, I have never had the displeasure of knowing or seeing in person anyone who has disrespected the US flag and by doing so the people who made it possible for them to have that "freedom to protest".
Call me what you will, but I have the right to protest your right to protest :p
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Originally posted by ispar
Elfenwolf, Sandman - though flying a flag doesn't make one more patriotic, wouldn't you say that someone flying a flag is more likely to be patriotic?
Oh no, not at all.I think patriotism is standing behind- and EXERCISING- those personal choices our Constitution and Bill of Rights guarantee us. I don't have to agree with what you say. I have a patriotic duty to ensure that your right to express yourself is unencumbered, however, so even though I might disagree with you I respect your right to express yourself.
In many ways the guy that burns an American flag has a stronger moral conviction than the guy who ran out a Made in China- flag on Sept.12 so he can impress his neighbors.
My patrotism is based upon my Government- guaranteed right to self determination. I can pratice any religion I want, I can say what I want, I can do what I want... It may seem passe now, but back in the 1770s it was a radical concept. I still believe in it.
Elfenwolf
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On reviewing my post, though, I recognize you love your country as much as I do. Sorry I didn't acknowledge that.
, Elfen
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I am a retired Police Officer, spent 24 years in Army Reserves including a brief stint overseas. I also disobeyed a direct order to remove the flag from my Police Bike during the iranian hostage actions and proudly wore a flag pin on my uniform again against orders.
In other words I exercised MY Constitutional rights like ellendorf (sp?) except for the fact that I stood in front to fight to defend the Constitution.
Mav
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Originally posted by wsnpr
I personally am more alarmed of our erosion of our civil rights. Also a question for our flag waving 'patriots':
Do you support one's right to burn our flag in protest? (Mind you I am not saying you wouldn't be pissed at seeing our flag being burned, just supporting one's RIGHT to do so.)
Absolutely. I support everyone's right to burn the flag. In fact, I might even support your reasons for doing it.
Originally posted by ispar
Elfenwolf, Sandman - though flying a flag doesn't make one more patriotic, wouldn't you say that someone flying a flag is more likely to be patriotic?
I'm with EW on this one.
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Australians all let us rejoice,
For we are young and free.
We've golden soil and wealth for toil,
Our home is girt by sea.
come on Aussies, sing along with me!