Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Thrawn on February 21, 2002, 07:07:33 PM
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CBC SPORTS ONLINE - The Russian delegation is considering withdrawing its entire team from the Olympic Games in Salt Lake City.
Russian cross-country skier Larissa Lazutina failed doping test
Moscow and the Russian Chef de Mission are now discussing a pullout after the women's cross-country relay team, the favourites to win Friday's event, surprisingly didn't compete because their star skier, Larissa Lazutina was disqualified after a blood test revealed illegal amounts of haemoglobin.
"These Games are the dirtiest in history," said Russia's Chef de Mission Leonid Tyagachev. "The IOC is favouring American show business to the detriment of the Olympic Movement."
Dirtiest Olympics in history eh? Hmmm, wonder where that dirt is coming from.
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LOL....this coming from the people who introduced bearded women to the olympics....
If they pull out is that premature evacuation?
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Tell 'em not to let the door hit 'em on the bellybutton on their way out.
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heheh It would give the US hockey team a free ticket to the gold medal game.
Bah, it's probably all talk.
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Caught with their pants down, and all they do is to threaten and misbehave. Any decent nation would have kicked the skiers home in a hurry and apologized. If thats representative of their official policy they should be banned from the olympics permanently.
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Like there havnt been any unfair calls by the judges favoring the US this olympics... This latest incident with "Ohno" winning the gold in skating...
:rolleyes:
And the 1-3 placing in snowboard :rolleyes:
If the US makes it to the final in Hockey we defenitly have the winner before hand... Not because of their talent but because of the home advantage...
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The Olympics=pro heavy wieght boxing + Don King. Take it from there people.
xBAT
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Wasn`t the Olympic to be amateurs only,and the world game for
pro`s,,,,further it should be a non political event.I think the olym-
pic spirit died a long time ago.
surtently the Swedes want to forget this in a hurry(you have to be scandinavian,to understand this :D )
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Your right Maniac the US has no talent that's why we are hosting the Olympics so we can buy all the medals.:rolleyes:
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The biggest threat to the Olympics has come not from jingoistic Americans, but from the rampant cheating perpetrated by the eastern block athlete mills and steriod farms. It is a fact that the East German women who once dominated the swimming pools were on a steriod laced training program.
Russian and East German women once dominated the sprints....no longer, improved drug testing ended that. Tamara Press and her "sister" Irena were the dominant force in womens track through the 60's.....when sex tests were implemented they disappeared. The Russians have very little to whine about.
"A life in sports is only maybe five or 10 years, but life after sports is more important," said former Soviet ice-hockey star Igor Larionov, one of the first athletes behind the Iron Curtain to speak out against doping in a 1988 open letter to Russia's mass circulation weekly Ogonyok. Larionov, now a star with the Detroit Red Wings, refused to take pills he believed to be steroids when he was with the Soviet team through most of the 1980s.
And the only reason the Olympics were originally for "amateurs" was to keep out the underprivileged rif-raf. Baron de Cubertine didn't want the games sullied by the likes of "physical education teachers", or any others who were not properly gentile gentlemen (ladies didn't get to play until later).
:cool:
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Originally posted by Dawvgrid
surtently the Swedes want to forget this in a hurry(you have to be scandinavian,to understand this :D )
Poor swedes - i actually feel pretty sorry for them - they have had some bad luck. At least they don't complain about the judges.
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Just heard that the Russians want the figure skating from last night over turned and their girl should get gold based on corrupted judging.
Perhaps the IOC should make a new rule that once a medal is placed around the neck of an athelete it cannot be removed nor can more be made and yes if the Canadians figure skaters have to return their gold and keep the silver then fine even tho they should have gotten gold.
Hopefully this would stem the flood of complaints and yet mabey it's something the IOC needs to go thru to clean up certain aspects of the games.
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In the Soviet times all eastern block athletes were professionals - officially holding jobs or attending colleges or serving in the army.
They showed up at those places twice a months to sign for their salary, which was heavily augmented plus their housing etc. was supplied for free. Also guaranteed training jobs for the rest of their lives once their sports career was over.
In exchange they each trained 8-12 hours a day 6-7 days a week under the direction of several government-paid trainers.
Winners of gold olympic medals received the Order of Lenin (like first kosmonauts) - the highest reward bar Hero of the Soviet Union.
Besides the whole massive soviet sports system was not so much concerned with the benefits of the population but was in fact a very tight screening net over the whole population to detect the talents for city/republican/union/international competition for the prestige of the appropriate party bosses.
If you were suspected in having a real talent, there was very litle chance that you would get away from participating. Most people would not ever think to refuse - besides obvious preks it was considered a civic duty. Same as having a great voice made participation in a public (college/factory/city) choir compulsory.
The screening system was most efficient in East Germany. That is why that tiny (15 mil) country was getting such a disproportonate number of medals - even compared with genetically-ideentical west germans.
Selection of genetically-suitable people is 98% of success in modern high-level sports. Having several trainers babysit/torture you 24/day took care of the rest - no matter your motivatuion or character traits.
Of course they (commies) had an unfair advantage over the real western amateurs who had to make a living and pay for their training, etc.
miko
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Maniac, thats one of the most retarded posts I've read in a while. Why did we place 1 and 3 in Snowboarding? Maybe because we invented the damn sport? No one finds it odd that Austria finishes 1/2 in Mens Downhill do they?
And Ohno winning the Gold? Did you waatch the damn race? He was about to BLOW by that Korean kid, I mean he was ridiculously faster, and the Korean kid blocked down. Its as clear as the day is long. Did Ohno do some acting? Perhaps ... do soccer players act on fouls? Perhaps ... do basketball players? Perhaps ...
but your right, its all a big conspiracy. Thats why when Ohno was drug down on his way to the Gold, the US protested and the race was run over again. Oh wait, no it wasnt.
:rolleyes:
Nim
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we wouldn't have this problem if Rollerball (the original from the mid 70's) were an Olympic sport :)
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hehe, until we get a bad non-call of the likes of Maradona's "Hand of God" in Mexico '86 (World Cup; semifinal I think) against England, we haven't seen bad refereeing.
As for the acting. Perhaps nothing. It's done in every sport where fouls/penalties are involved. It was getting so rampant in soccer that they started giving out yellow cards to the bad actors. ;) However, just because one embellishes the foul doesn't mean the foul didn't occur. If the Korean blocked down illegally, he should be disqualified, regardless of if Ohno embellished it.
I can't directly comment on the figure skating as I didn't watch it. From reviews, the Hughes girl skated her free skate flawlessly. The Russian girl lacked fire and didn't attempt her more difficult moves that she usually performs in the free skate. 9 judges are supposedly enough. I disagree. should have a judge from every country that's competing in the Games. ;)
The Russians aren't the only people whining in this Olympics. Even Gretzky was getting into the whining the other day.
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From what I understand we got 1-3 in snowboarding halfpipe because it's such an idiotic sport nobody else entered?
Anyway this is more proof figure skating has to follow the rest of the judged sports right out the door.
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the problem with female figure skating ain't the judging, it is the body stockings they make them wear to hide the best part(s) about "figure" skating :eek: :)
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Miko, all true I'm sure, but it wasn't just genetics. Unless you are considering the number of X or Y chromosomes. Drug use has been proven for the East Germans and the Russians and don't forget the Press sisters.
Blood doping was thought to be detection proof, because it doesn't involve drugs. Athletes will continually donate their own blood, which is reduced to red blood cells only and reinjected before a big event. This increases the amount of oxygen the blood can carry significantly. That is what the Russian girl was caught doing.
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all i saw of russia vs usa was the figureskating competition.
i was cheering for michelle kwan but that slutskaaya chick clearly nailed her.
i was surprised because kwan tripped up and still got a better score! the russian chick was oooogly as sin, but her routine was right on the money and fair is fair.
i'd rather be remembered as fair than as a winner.
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Yes midnight, but I really hope that its not a genetic thing.
Compare the red blood cell count of someone born and raised in California with that of someone born and raised in, say, Peru or the Himalayas.
The higher the altitude, the higher the red blood cell count.
But then again, if she did re-inject her own blood, then the red blood cell count wouldve been unholy high and obvious.
:p
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Originally posted by Tac
Yes midnight, but I really hope that its not a genetic thing.
I do not know how our western sissy athletes train, but back in Soviet Union an athlete aspiring to a republican level (and we had 15 republics) was in training 24 hours a day 365 day a year with several trainers making sure he/she does not slack. He did not study, did not work for living, did not shop or cook - just trained.
Obviously they were equally made to cheat with drugs etc.
In my personal experience a junior boxer of 14 years had three 2.5 hour training sessions a day 6 days a week. A Soviet Union boxing champion in 1920th trained 2-3 hours 3 days a week if the trainer tales were to be believed.
No amount of willpower, determination etc. in an athlete could contribute a bit to the efficiency of training. More then enough of willpower and determination was supplied by the trainers - who's careers depended on the success of their charge.
Everything that a human could possibly give was taken from him/her, so the only variable was how much that human had to start with - genetics, prenatal care, early growth environment, etc. Not something that could be (legally) affected - only discovered and exploited.
miko
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What a crap...
Haemoglobin...
Incredible... When I regulary practiced mountain-hiking (at least 3 times a year, no less then a week, minimum of 160km mountain route, up to 350km in 2 weeks full load every summer) I showed extraordinary high haemoglobin on my blood analysis. Why didn't they ban me from the Army service?... :rolleyes:
But well, it's OK. In 1936 someone didn't want black athlets to win too.
I hope our team will not leave the Olympics, but they definetly shouldn't participate in a closing ceremony. Or yankees will force them to maybe kiss that WTC flag. Even the Moscow Olympics were not turned into a dirty political farce like that.
I hope Fetisov's team will tear the US into a British flag. Unfortunately, they already said there will be a "special" doping test for our goalkeeper, and all referees will be Americans... Unprecedented loathsomeness.
And the most disturbing thing is that our NOC started to behave like that Canadian loosers. I saw a Russian team press-conference live, it was 4 AM here in Moscow, I just woke up to smoke. Our officials were stunned, they could barely speak, from what I understood - translation service didn't work very well...
What year it is now? 2002? I say - 1938... Deja vu?
In the Soviet times all eastern block athletes were professionals - officially holding jobs or attending colleges or serving in the army.
Just like American "college sportsmen".
They showed up at those places twice a months to sign for their salary, which was heavily augmented plus their housing etc. was supplied for free. Also guaranteed training jobs for the rest of their lives once their sports career was over.
It's not true, Miko, and you know it. Sorry.
[...]
Of course they (commies) had an unfair advantage over the real western amateurs who had to make a living and pay for their training, etc.
Miko, not "commies", but Soviet athlets. It's very unfair to hang labels like this onto people like Brumel', Bubka, Sal'nikov, Tretyak or Kharlamov.
It's all very sad... (sorry fo saying this again) Looks like a special campaign to make America an "enemy number one" for us. The indignation still didn't reach the level of spring-99, but it's very, very close...
NB: I want to "air" the current Russian public opinion. Sorry if I offended someone.
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Oh no, everyone's picking on the poor helpless Russians :rolleyes:
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Boroda
I, for one, do appreciate the fact they shaved their armpits for the occassion :)
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Wake up Boroda.....if your Hemoglobin level is 20-50 times normal you probably cheated. And EVERYONE gets the same testing.
College athletes get a free education, room and board and maybe help from rich alumni......not quite the same.
I have no problem with the Soviet "profesional" system, as long as we all get the same opportunities. The fact that you (Russia) were caught cheating and are whining about it is just incredible.
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Originally posted by Boroda
What a crap...
Haemoglobin...
Incredible... When I regulary practiced mountain-hiking (at least 3 times a year, no less then a week, minimum of 160km mountain route, up to 350km in 2 weeks full load every summer) I showed extraordinary high haemoglobin on my blood analysis. Why didn't they ban me from the Army service?... :rolleyes:
I'm guessing that there's a threshold. Certainly, there is a range of normal haemoglobin levels depending on the individual. Extradordinary is one thing. Abnormal is another.
Oh... and Sarah Hughes kicked ass...
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For Women the Haemoglobin value for women max value is 160, and the russian lady had 168 in the test...
Dont know how much 8 points do + -
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I'm guessing that there's a threshold. Certainly, there is a range of normal haemoglobin levels depending on the individual. Extradordinary is one thing. Abnormal is another.
Oh... and Sarah Hughes kicked ass...
Abnormal!? Larisa had 16.08-something when a threshold was 16.0... Everyone has personal lungs and ventilation. Alpinists, like Reingold Messner (my hero!), usually have extremely high ventilation, and, therefore - haemoglobin level. Only very few people can survive at 8000m and above for weeks. But it's their personal genes and training. Or should only "average" athlets be allowed at the Olympics?
BTW, haemoglobin is used only as a sign that _some_ drugs _probably_ _could_ be used. The problem is that they tested Larisa 1.5 hours before start and announced the results only 5 minutes before, so we couldn't reassign another athlet.
At least it's what Russian officials say. "I sell it at the same price I bought it". Waiting for Toad to explain - he always knows better and has extremely reliable sources, like American i-net tabloids.
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miko: They showed up at those places twice a months to sign for their salary, which was heavily augmented plus their housing etc. was supplied for free. Also guaranteed training jobs for the rest of their lives once their sports career was over.
Boroda: It's not true, Miko, and you know it. Sorry.
Not only do I know it to be true, it would not have made sence otherwise. The whole country was inspired by our sports teams, especially their performance abroad. What difference would it make to the country to have those people work their 8-hour days? Just to comply with the capitalist amateur rules?
Do you really believe that Major Tretyak was present every 6am at the reveille of his batallion? Military service is more then 8-hours a day, as I remember. Hard to keep training schedule. In fact while I was traning for my garrison competition on the modest 1 razryad level, I was freed from any kind of military service. If I had been good, I would have moved to the higher league and become a permanent sportsman for the whole term of my service - never having to do any actual serving.
Boroda: Miko, not "commies", but Soviet athlets. It's very unfair to hang labels like this onto people like Brumel', Bubka, Sal'nikov, Tretyak or Kharlamov.
By "commies" I ment the communist elite that controlled and directed the sports. Or the whole country that enjoyed the victories.
The athletes were regular hardworking people just like any other. They were made to cheat for the glory of the Soviet Union, I was made to liberate Afghani people... Whatever.
miko
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Larisa had 16.08-something when a threshold was 16.0...
So just how far above that limit do you feel someone should be allowed to go? You do know its called a limit for a reason don't you?
You also know that these numbers aren't pulled out of thin air nor are they picked by the host country to weight things in their favor... right?
Someone failed a drug test (they don't grade your score... you pass or FAIL) and poor Russia is upset. What they are actually upset about is the fact that people are actually holding them to some kind of standard now. My, my, my... they things they used to get away with.
AKDejaVu
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they things they used to get away with.
Please enlighten us whit what they "used to get away with" i have no clue...
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Miko, i meant "housing etc. was supplied for free. Also guaranteed training jobs for the rest of their lives once their sports career was over.". This definetly wasn't true.
BTW, while you boxed I was in a rifleing team. I had to quit because I studied too much, but my friend attended Union-level competitions.
Certainly, Tretyak didn't command a batallion. My father didn't as well, while he officialy was a battalion commader, being at a scientific job at the first place. And he was a leading Army sportsman, LenVO champion in pistol shooting, and his record still isn't beaten, since 1965 ;) But his main job was science.
The situation isn't as simple as you try to show our Western friends.
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Just heard a bunch of you rushkies voted whatever to 0 to boycott the closing ceremonies...
I thunk your country is making to big a deal out of it. Reminds of crazy dad in the stands jumping up and down makin a fool of himself when his kid in little league gets a bad call all the while the kid shrugs his shoulders and is more embarrassed by crazy dad than the bad call...
I'm sure the majority of your athletes want to attend the closing ceremonies and the parties that follow rather than run to the bus for the flight back home knowing they'll probably never get another chance to visit the greatest country in the world in their lifetime.
it's really their loss not yours .... if there is any loss at all.
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they'll probably never get another chance to visit the greatest country in the world in their lifetime.
I think they will have plenty of chances to visit the greatest country in the world wich is very close to Russia, the country of course is Sweden.
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Originally posted by Maniac
I think they will have plenty of chances to visit the greatest country in the world wich is very close to Russia, the country of course is Sweden.
oh yeah! well my country is bigger than your's! :p :D
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Hehe, mine is the biggest anyway ;) :p
Another note: someone is pushing us into a new cold war. Who, I wonder?...
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Originally posted by Boroda
Hehe, mine is the biggest anyway ;) :p
Another note: someone is pushing us into a new cold war. Who, I wonder?...
The media... it helps to sell advertising. :)
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
The media... it helps to sell advertising. :)
Couldn't say better myself.
Salute!
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Originally posted by Maniac
Please enlighten us whit what they "used to get away with" i have no clue...
Go back up and read the quote from the Russian hockey star. I have mentioned the steriod use 3 times now and Boroda has yet to bring it up....and the threshold of 160 is way way above normal already. The Russian doctors just didn't time the doping well enough this time around.
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Originally posted by Boroda
Hehe, mine is the biggest anyway ;) :p
Another note: someone is pushing us into a new cold war. Who, I wonder?...
The Olympic Committee .. dam them anyway, then again after the Nuclear Winter there'd be plenty of room for Winter Olympics :)
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LOL! Now thats an conspiracy!!!
:)
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Actually, the speed skating incident involving South Korea is revenge for the 1988 boxing incident. ;) How's it feel to have the home town boy win now, South Korea? :p