Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: fdiron on February 21, 2002, 07:54:09 PM
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Here are my thoughts on the 5 most influential fighters of World War II. [Aircraft are not in order of importance]
(1)A6M 'Zero'- This was the mainstay fighter of the Japanese. It was in use throughout the war.
(2) F6F Hellcat- Carrier based fighter which helped the U.S. turn the tide against Japan. It outclassed the Zero and produced more aces than any other U.S aircraft
(3) Bf109- The second most produced aircraft in history. Was the workhorse of the Luftwaffe
(4) Spitfire- The Spitfire was probably the biggest contributor to stopping Operation SeaLion (the invasion of Britian by Germany).
(5) P51- Gave the U.S. its much needed escort fighter and granted the allieds air superiority over Europe.
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I think the P-39, P-40, P-38 and P-47 and the Hurricane should be the most influential. They held their ground against superior German and Japanese planes and pilots for years until the uber allied rides were brought to the scene (P51, late models of 47 and 38 and then the Spitfires).
On the Axis side, I'd say the Zeke , 109 and Stuka (short lived career but it definetely contributed a LOT to conquering almost all of europe!).
Ze Boomerang helped the Aussies a lot as well.
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My main reason for including the P51 was the fact that the Strategic Bombing Campaign had to be halted due losses from German fighters . No fighter besides the P51 had the range to escort the bombers deep into Germany.
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Originally posted by fdiron
My main reason for including the P51 was the fact that the Strategic Bombing Campaign had to be halted due losses from German fighters . No fighter besides the P51 had the range to escort the bombers deep into Germany.
This isn't quite true. The P-38 had the fuel capacity to escort the bombers to Berlin, but because of reliability problems in the ETO it couldn't realize its full effectiveness in combat there. Further, it was more expensive than the Mustang; a loss cost more to replace.
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Further more, the P38 helped the allies over the hump. By the time the P51 was used in Europe the germans had already started losing the war.
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There were also tests and plans by both the RAF and USAAF for long ranged Spitfires.
If the P-51 hadn't panned out like it did, new versions of Spits would have been flying long range escort.
In the actual event they were not need and so the design changes were not introduced. The changes included wing tanks of nearly identical design to the P-51's wing tanks and a rear fuselage tank that made the Spit more unstable than the P-51's rear tank mad it, at least until 50% of the fuel in it was drained. Larger droptanks were also available.
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oops!:o
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Well, I would add the F4F into the mix. It was at a big disadvantage when matched against the Zero, but it held the line until the F4U was introduced in the Solomons and the F6F was placed on the carriers.
The thing is, with all lists, you tend to leave off some things that should be included. Try naming your top 5 favorite movies. For most people, it is a very difficult endeavor. I can name my favorite all time movie (Raiders of the Lost Ark btw), but the 4 that follow? That is tough. The same thing when making any list that is subjective.
Oh well, they are fun to create though, if only for the discussions and debates that they create.
-math
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p47, p51, spitfire
109, 190
A6m
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Mitsubishi A6M: It gave the Japanese the confindence in the air against anybody else, and that helped infuence their decision to attack the USA. After initial resistance due to the A6M's lack of manueverability Japanese pilots came to regard the Zero the way Samurai thought of their katanas. Jiro Horikoshi (Mitsubishi's lead designer) was more famous in Japan than Reginald Mitchell was in the UK.
Supermarine Spitfire: It sold hope and eventual victory to the British people in a way that the Hurricane could not even as the Hurricane was doing the hard work. Morale had more to do with winning at that point than battlefield performance. The Spitfire also soldiered on, sucessfully excepting upgrade after upgrade, and remained a first rate front line fighter for the entire war.
Messerschmitt Bf109: It lead the fighter aspect of the early German victories, proving superior to everthing it faced until the Spitfire, and then it was so close that there isn't any agreement as to which was actually better. Later superceded, but never out infuenced, in the Luftwaffe's effect on the war by a fighter the Bf109 was the fighter of choice for the great German aces.
Grumman F6F Hellcat: This is the fighter that decisively and irrevocably turned the air war against Japan. It wasn't until late 1944 that Japanese fighters appeared that had the advantage on the F6F, and by that point quality of both manufacturing and pilots was down. It was too little too late.
Yakovlev Yak 9 and 3: The Yak series held the line against the Germans and then pushed it back. The Yak 3 being so effective at the low altitudes of the Eastern Front that the Germans tried not to engage it without substantial altitude advantages. Produced in even greater numbers than the Bf109, the Yak carried the fighter effort for Russia.
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109
Il-2
Spit
190
P51
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I didn't know Il-2 was a fighter. Well you learn something new every day :)
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- P-51
- Me 109
- Spit
- A6M
- P 47 or 190 or Hellcat or Yak
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Further more, the P38 helped the allies over the hump. By the time the P51 was used in Europe the germans had already started losing the war.
True that the Nazis were losing by the time the 51 came in any kind of numbers. Wasn't the 38's doing, though - there were only two 38 groups in the 8th during the period October, 1943 - March, 1944, which is when the Nazis got shot out of the skies.
The true, and unsung, hero of the ETO was the P-47. Love it or hate it, it's the plane that ripped the guts out of the Luftwaffe. The 51 came along afterwards and cleaned up on all the youngsters.
Similarly, I'd have to substitute the Wildcat for the Hellcat, for many of the same reasons. By the time the Hellcat came along, the air war was won.
Otherwise, I agree with everyone's Spitfire-109-Zero pick.
- Oldman
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Me 262
it wasn't said influential on what, just WWII or the aviation afterwards for example.
// fats
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Stuka (short lived career but it definetely contributed a LOT to conquering almost all of europe!).
Wouldn't agree on short lived career, atleast no shorter then other german plane. JU87 servered threw out the war, on all fronts and was feared (loved my enemey pilots) by ground forces. Russians hated it so much that they killed most JU87 crews they got thier hands on.
First german photo ever taken during the war, was on a Ju87, last photo ever taken, was also a JU87 outside berlin strafing Russian ground forces (have the film of it).
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your 5 fighters are pretty good but the spit wasnt the so much influential in stopping the invasion as producing an icon for us brits and a feared fighter for the LW.The hurricane was the real workhorse of the battle of Britain. two thirds of the kills were by hurricanes i think(from my seive memory :))
heres what i think:
P51d because it was the first fighter to escort the bombers into the heart of Germany.Without this range the bombers would have taken far too many losses to be a viable weapon.Powerful, fast and desperately needed.It crushed the Nazis morale.
109 because in the beginning of the war 1939/1940 it was undoubtedly the best fighter in active service in the world.Later it was adapted again and again and stayed in service throughout the war, although it was outclassed later in the war it was a true workhorse for Germany and it was easy to build.
Spitfire because it earned an incredible reputation and gave Great Gritain hope during the darkest of times.The designer worked himself to death because he knew it would save Britain.Many doubted his design could be adapted from seaplane racer to fighter but he would not be swayed.Thank god that he succeeded.Such a pity he died before he could see what his aircraft did for his country.A true hero for Great Britain.
Zero. Again a spectacular early war aircraft that allowed japan to almost conquer the pacific.It may not be the best fighter Japan produced but it certainly encapsulated the Japanese Ideals of the samurai's.No protection but deadly.The pilots of it almost left their fate in the hands of their gods.You would catch me in one of them in the war though :D
Focke Wulf 190 Undoubtedly if the LW didnt have this aircraft the war would have ended a LOT sooner.Need anything more be said? :).When it appeared it struck a new fear into the British/Canadian/Polish/Czech etc pilots who faced it.It was the scourge of the russian forces, the allied bombers.The sheer variety of roles it performed is a true testiment to its excellent design.And that roll rate is truely phenominal when compared to other aircraft flying at the time it went into operational use.It also carried among the heaviest firepower seen on a SE fighter.
Honourable mentions : P47/Typhoons/P40 and all ground pounders for doing the dirty work 'in the trenches' as it were.
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Originally posted by fats
Me 262
it wasn't said influential on what, just WWII or the aviation afterwards for example.
// fats
Actually, the 262 wasns't particualrly influential on anything. It was a compromise airplane that didn't pioneer any particular aerodynamic ways of thinking.
D
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Quite Wrong Doberman, was the first plane in the world with Swept wings which alowed for higher speeds, the thing even went supersonic in 44/45.
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1. Zeke
2. Mustang
3. Wildcat
4. ?
5. ?
I personally think the Wildcat is more important than the Hellcat because it was involved in fighting the best pilots the Japanese had to offer and in dealing directly with the mystique of the Zeke. By the time the Hellcat and Corsair are making their names known, a good many of the experienced Japanese pilots are already dead. At the battle of Midway alone, the Japanese lost four carriers and a good majority of the experienced pilots that were on board (maybe that is more attributable to the SBD.)
The match-ups that illicit more fancies of imagination to me are the Spitfire vs 109 and of course the Wildcat vs Zeke.
Just my $.02
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Quite Wrong Doberman, was the first plane in the world with Swept wings which alowed for higher speeds, the thing even went supersonic in 44/45.
There's never been any actual proof that it went supersonic, has there been?
And as I said, it was a compromise. The 262 was orginally designed with a straight wing. Late in the design stage, it came to light that the engines were going to be significantly heavier than originally proposed. Instead of a major redesign to fix the center of gravity & center of pressure problems that the engines now created, they simply swept the ends of the wings backwards. The swept wings were not done to increase speed or high speed handeling. In fact, tests showed the 262 to be extremely unstable at near supersonic speeds.
D
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I'd place the P-47 on that list... and probably above the Pony. Name a fighter that contributed more to the overall war effort considering all the different roles the Jug had. I can't name any.
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a) ME109
consequent light construction, small sizes, strong engine, good aerodynamcis. First design where speed and climb was considered more important than turning, though it turned quite good for the wingload. A radical break-through in aircraft design. New application of high-tech, like slats, forward-rearward cooling flaps, trimmable stabi. In other aspects very archaic, though
b)FW190
True multirole function. Highly flexible. Compare it to todays effort for multi-rold aircrafts under the aegis of the JSF. Jabo, fighter, with various Rüstsätze, nightchase, longrange, shortrange, reconaissance. Very easy to control for the pilot, who can bring his full attention to the situation happening around him-ergonomics, very important today. "Electrical aircraft" pioneer. Nearly all subsystems operated though a 24V system. Pioneer in radio equipment like two-way VHF radio, FuG25a Identification Friend or Foe (IFF) radar transponder or FuG 10P radio direction finder, FuG 217 Neptun, FuG 350 Nexus... . Excellent flight controls, a new level especially in aileron control. very easy to maintain and supportable in the field. Designed for efficient decentral production. First application of a jettinsonable hood. One of the first applications of a short-span wide chord prop, later to become a common feature on modern turbo-props.
c)Me262
Demonstration of speed and climb, or better, the introduction of a new age. Enough said
d) P51 - the importance of range was demonstrated, including the importance of "excellent" aerodynamics instead of "good".
For the last one i have already problems speaking about "influence". It used rather primitive weapons, and numbers were more important than innovative technics. I also thought about B17, B24, B29, but looking at the precise bombing from safe altitude today i can´t say that their carpet bombing on cities influenced the development very much. On the other hand carpet bombing was used in Vietnam and Irak.
e) Fiesler Storch. First STOL-aircraft :)
niklas
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4 of the 5 most influential planes German?
The side that lost?
Didn't influence it much then, did they :D
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1. Pony
2. Jug
3. Pony
4. Jug
5. Il2 - as a consession to our Russian Allies
:D
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I respect all of your opinions, but this stuff about "All the good pilots were dead by the time of [P51,F4U,F6F]" is just plane silly. Some of the BIGGEST air battles of the war were fought by these planes. Now I may be wrong on this, but I heard that the P51 shot down 50% of all Luftwaffe fighters downed by allied aircraft in the ETO.
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First german photo ever taken during the war, was on a Ju87, last photo ever taken, was also a JU87 outside berlin strafing Russian ground forces (have the film of it).
can post that?
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Originally posted by Nashwan
4 of the 5 most influential planes German?
You´re right, i take the P51 out of my list and replace it with the german "wing-only" design like the me163 or some design of the Horton brothers. Those design were really way ahead compared to a P51 that was basically a good looking standard design.
So we have 5/5 german design :)
Worth mentioning is also the tricycle gear of the P39 and the first application of boosted controls in the P38 and F4U
I´m talking about the influence on following aircraft designs btw, not about the influence they had in the war or the succes they had.
niklas
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109
Yak
p47
a6m
f6f
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I only have the film on VCR I am afraid, no TV card so can't record it to the computer :(
Doberman, you're right about the swept wing and it wasn't made like that because they thought it would give it a higher speed, but it did have a swept wing and they quickly found out that it was revulutionary and it was the first swept wing plane ever.
As for proof that it broke the sound barrier, yes there is, I posted it a few weeks ago.
Here it is again.
http://www.luftwaffenschmiede.de/mach1/index.htm
Have fun :)
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fdiron, when the war began, germany had a LOT of experienced fighter pilots flying THE hottest plane of its time.
The RAF hurricanes and in later stages the spitfires with their green pilots and pilots from conquered european nation (green mostly) were no match for them in terms of experience and planes... but they quickly learned and with the use of radar, were able to hold back and inflict casualties on the LW.
Then the P-47's and P-38s and 8th AF buffs started flying over France and near germany, and for years they duked it with the LW vets, smacking down a lot of their experienced pilots out of the war.
The P-51 arrived at a time when the LW was very close to being worn out, few experienced pilots left and their pilot training programs were fekd up from lack of fuel. The P51 just took on what was left imo.
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In order of importance...
1.) Messerschmitt Bf-109 - The aircraft that finally sealed the fate of biplanes. The 109 was a quantum leap in terms of technology and redefined what a modern fighter should be. Late war versions had trouble keeping up as an increasingly larger engine was stuffed into a small, early-war airframe. None-the-less - 109's were still influential in delaying the Aillied air advance and remained in service with forgien air forces into the 1960's.
2.) Supermarine Spitfire - The rival of the 109's, it held its own during the Battle of Britain and continued until the end of the war to serve with effect. Its late-war varients were some of the finest fighters produced.
3.) Republic P-47 Thunderbolt - A serious problem for the Luftwaffe from 1942 on. The P-47 was responsible for most of the USAAF kills in the ETO and lead the way for all other late war US fighters.
4.) Chance-Vought F4U Corsair - The fact that variations of this aircraft served with air forces of the world well into the 1960's is proff enough of it's effectiveness. This aircraft turned the tide of the war in the Pacific by changing the tactics used - essentially nullifying the advantages of the Zero's. In its final incarnation - the F4U4, we see the pinnicle of prop driven fighters.
5.) North American P-51 Mustang - The posterchild of WWII aviation, the Mustang was responsible for lenghty escort of B-17's and B-24's over Germany. While the air war was all but won by the time the Mustang arrived on the scene, it marked for the rest of the world what fighter aircraft must strive to be in the future. Its low drag multi-lamenant wing was a first and that technology helped advance the US into the jet age.
Honorable Mentions:
6. Focke Wulf Fw-190
7. Mitsubishi A6M "Zeke"
8. Grumman F4F Wildcat
9. Hawker Hurricane
10. Messerschmitt Me-262
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1. Bf-109(1939)
With the Ju-87D and the Wehrmacht, introduced into the world the 'Blitz Krieg'. Coordination of airpower and ground forces, a whole new ball game of dynamic military operations.
2. Spitfire(1940)
Though the Hurricane dealt with a lot of tougher situations, the Spit became a very symbol of the BoB, the world's largest air battle in history.
3. A6M2 Zero(1941)
Finally sealed the fate of WWI air combat tactics as 'old'. The painful lesson learned by Americans against the A6M2 helped develop aircraft with new emphasis on designs and advanced tactics that go with it.
4. P-47C(1943)
The arrival of the USAAF gave the Luftwaffe a whole new type of challenge. Fighters that are more heavily armed, heavily protected, moves better at high speeds, and even faster than their own LW planes, operates better the higher they go. Turning point of the ETO air war.
5. Me-262(1944)
What more is to say? Brought on the age of rockets and jets.
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Hmm.. my list seems like more of historical influence.. rather than actual military influence...
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FW-190 because it has caused more ranting, tears, chest-pounding and arguments on flight sim BBSs than all other aircraft combined.
Hooligan
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Not true! :D
The real 'bomb' in that sense would be the (you guessed it!) C-Hog...!
Man, I hate to think what the BBS was like before it was perked..
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C-Hog and Niki, now that I think again ;).
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In no particular order:
1 - Stuka. Symbol of the Blitzkreig.
2 - Arado Ar234 Blitz. The first jet bomber.
3 - Mosquito. High and fast and wooden!
4 - The Flying Fortress.
5 - The Enola Gay. Nuff said!
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1. Commonwealth Boomerang - Designed in two weeks and built not long after using whatever was lying around. Remained in the RAAF until the end of the war. Tough and dependable, could sneak up on ground targets at extremely low speeds.
2. Commonwealth Wirraway - First Aussie built plane for WWII. Based on an American trainer of whose designation I cannot recall.
3. Lockheed P-38 - The US 38 pilots flew in the SE Asian theatre and loved Boomerangs because they marked targets so well and provided excellent ground support.
4. Mosquito/Liberator/Beaufort - Cos we built some.
5. La-7 - Because I got 5 kills in it last night.
Thats all, goodnight.
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Actually the C-hog and N1k only cause tears and ranting because the 190 pilots think that flying an aircraft with 4 x 20mm cannons is somehow unfair. So the 190 gets the credit for those rants also.
Hooligan
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Well, I don't know how this all fits into this discussion, but you could split the PTO into three distinct phases, each represented by a specific US plane.
1: 1942: SBD - responsible for much of the damage to the IJN. IIRC, it was the US plane that sunk the most Japanese ships (tonnage-wise i think)
2: 1943-44: F6F - Responsible for the complete slaughter of Japanese aviation that was wrought during this period.
3: 1945: B-29 - Firebombing the mainland completely destroyed the Japanese industrial capacity, not to mention the two atomic bombs dropped.
I think I read this in Tillman's book on the F6F, and it makes pretty good sense to me.
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:rolleyes:
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The P-38 was the FIRST ALLIED FIGHTER TO APPEAR OVER BERLIN. It was also the first long range fighter in the U.S. inventory. It was the first Allied fighter to be able to escort the bombers deep into Germany.
It was influential for several reasons, although it was not that influential on fighter design in W.W.II.
It had twin engines for range, speed, power, and reliability. It was an effective multi role fighter, interceptor, and ground attack platform. It had center mounted weapons for accuracy. It was an extremely stable and deadly gun platform. Almost all U.S. air dominance fighters are complex twin engine platforms, the only possible exception is the F-16, which is not really an air superiority fighter. All this from a design for a high altitude high speed INTERCEPTOR. That's right, the design of the P-38 was for a bomber interceptor, and not a true fighter plane. It was never actually design to do anything but shoot down medium and heavy bombers.
It did have its problems. First, it was originally designed with 1100 horsepower engines, and when produced horsepower increased from 1100 to over 1700, so the radiators and intercoolers were at times inadequate. It required better fuel than was commonly available in Britain. It required intense and expert maintenance to be entirely reliable. It required a dedicated expert pilot to be successful. A well trained dedicated P-38 pilot could take on ANY Axis plane short of the 262 and expect to emerge victorious. Any less than well trained pilot could expect to break even at best. It was a difficult plane to fly.
That being said, the majority of problems with the P-38 in Europe were as much or more the fault of the USAAF than the plane. Go back to the beginning of the bomber campaign, when escorts were not used. This immediately caused the majority of the P-38s to be sent to North Africa. From there, they went to Italy. The 8th AF in Europe was never able to recover from this mistake, and from 1943 on, they were extremely short of P-38s, which until the P-47 got big external tanks, and the P-51 arrived in numbers, was the only escort with the necessary range. Therefore, the P-38 was ALWAYS in short supply. Especially since the 5th AF in the SW Pacific was getting priority, because General Kenney made two or three trips stateside to ensure he got what he wanted. From 1943 until February 1944, the P-38 faced the Luftwaffe deep in Germany with only a small margin of help from the P-51. The P-47 was available in massive numbers, but could not go the distance, and the Luftwaffe would wait to attack until those mass formations of P-47s turned back.
Further, while there was a wealth of experience available from successful pilots in the MTO (remember how difficult to fly the P-38 is), none of these pilots were assigned to instruct new pilots, nor were they assigned to lead them in combat when they got to Europe. Even the very best P-38 pilots in Europe complained bitterly that they lacked experienced leadership and well trained pilots. It should be noted that the first P-51 squadrons had experienced leaders, and their new pilots were flying a plane that was easier to master in combat, even though when it was mastered it was no more effective than a well flown P-47 or P-38.
Since the P-38s were in such short supply, they were never allowed to fully develop, since until 1944 they were the only longe range escorts avaialble and as such no production delays could be accepted. This meant that any new upgrade would be either delayed or discarded. The dive flaps were delayed for this very reason, as were the improved oil coolers, intercoolers, and radiators. Further, these parts were supplied by the USAAF, and manufacturers took what they were given. Also delayed were power assisted controls which when installed, dramatically increased the roll rate, an improvement sorely needed in the P-38. Not to mention the improved cockpit heating and sealing.
The automatic controls for the oil coolers, radiators, and intercoolers were also delayed. These were necessary because poorly trained pilots did not properly manage engine temperatures, and this alone was the biggest cause of poor reliability of the P-38. Pilots simply did not keep the oil and coolant warm enough at high altitude during cruise conditions. Then, when in combat, they didn't open the cooling doors and the engines overheated.
Finally, some improvements never made production, because the short sighted USAAF and WPB never made efforts to get the secondary production at Nashville off the ground. Among these were a new 1800+ horsepower Allsison engine, the three and later four blade Hamilton Standard High Activity Paddle prop, the K-14 gyro stabilized gun sight, and the master combat control system, which with a single act set the engine and prop controls for maximum performance, switched the fuel tanks and dropped the external tanks, turned on the gun heaters, and turned on the gun sight light. All of these improvements, along with possibly a 50% increase in the number of available P-38s, as early as mid 1943, could have made a huge difference in what happened between June 1943 and the end of the war.
Poor maintenance was a factor also, no doubt the maintneance crews had no better training than the pilots. They allowed the electrical components of the Curtiss Electric prop to corrode due to exposure to harsh weather in Europe (the Curtiss prop should never have been there, the Hamilton Standrard prop was hydrostatic, and far more reliable, the use of the Curtiss prop was an inexcusable erro on the part of the USAAF). This caused the props to "run away" and blow the engines, and also caused the circuit breaker and fuses to blow in the prop controls, not to mention overloading the electrical system, burning out the generator and wiring. They also failed to properly maintian the engines and engine controls themsleves. This caused more overheating, and caused rough running and engine damage.
Until Doolittle took over, no one in the 8th AF had the good sense to assure that the proper fuel was available either, and the British fuel was not acceptable for use in the P-38, the octane was too low, and the fuel would not stay properly blended, the octane raising components and the lead used to lubricated the valves and seats fell out of suspension in the intercoolers, causing detoantion and burnt valves.
Had the 8th AF merely kept their P-38s, and had the foresight to get the same drop tanks for their fighters that were used in the SW Pacific, not only would there have been plenty of P-38s, but the P-47 would have been able to go the distance in mid 1943. The effect of double the compliment of P-38s, and the full compliment of P-47s going all the way to the target would have meant air dominance by the Allies in mid to late 1943, as opposed to April of 1944. It would be difficult to tally the number of lives of bomber crews and fighter pilots saved.
For all the fluff about the P-51, several things are forgotten. The P-51 had several glaring problems. From their introduction until February of 1944 and later, there were two major problems, the first of which was a continual propensity to foul plugs, resulting in rough engines and aborted missions. The other remains to this day. Merlin engines are known to develop cracked cylinder heads. This dumps the coolant quickly. Merlins are incapable of tolerating low coolant conditions, and the small narrow bearings sieze very quickly. The P-51 simply is not the invincible all conquering plane popular history leads most to believe.
The P-47 had the fewest problems of all, and was available in far greater numbers at least until mid to late 1944. Tough, rugged, reliable, and effective, its only real drawback was range, and no one in the 8th really made serious attempts to solve this problem and use the large tanks used in the SW Pacific until 1944.
By the way, the date at which the P-51 actually even equalled the P-38 in numbers deployed in Europe was sometime in April of 1944.
As far as influencing the war effort, the P-47 and the P-38 go much further than the P-51. While what it (the P-51) could do (long range and high speed) did influence the design requirements for fighters, not many of its actual design features are carried on todays fighter aircraft. The plane that most resembles the P-51 in the current inventory is the F-16, which is a relatively cheap and simple multi role plane compared to the F-15, F-18, and F-22, which are twin engine, complex, heavily automated, air dominance fighters capable of multi role use. Hmm, large, twin engine, complex, air dominance, multi role use, wonder which W.W.II fighter that most resembles?
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Hmmm?
1. P47c
2. the JUG
3. P47d
4. Thunderbolt
5. hmm....did I mention the P47
Monk out
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Hi everyone,
I don't think 5 are enough. Here's a complete list of the most influential fighter aircraft of WW2, in chronological order:
1.) Messerschmitt Me 109 - the first of its kind, and it set the standards for the rest.
2.) Supermarine Spitfire - the first Allied fighter that was as good as the Me 109
3.) Mitsubishi Zero - superior to all its Allied contemporaries.
4.) Focke-Wulf Fw 190 - when it appeared, the Allied had nothing that was equal.
5.) Lockheed Lightning - a failure in Europe, but it broke the Zero's superiority in the Pacific.
6.) Grumman Hellcat - the other aircraft that defeated the Zero.
7.) North American Mustang - it defeated the Luftwaffe. And that's what the Luftwaffe thinks! :-)
8.) Messerschmitt Me 262 - the first of its kind. The first operational jet fighter. It pioneered swept wings and unguided missile air-to-air armament.
You could, perhaps, leave out 5.) and 6.), but that wouldn't bring down the number to 5, and I think they're too important anyway.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by HoHun
7.) North American Mustang - it defeated the Luftwaffe. And that's what the Luftwaffe thinks! :-)
Sez who, bub?
- Oldman
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Originally posted by Oldman731
Sez who, bub?
- Oldman
Considering that the Luftwaffe LOST the war, their opinion may or may not be the most accurate and reliable. The leader of the Luftwaffe was a deluded heroin addict, the fact that he said "When I saw Mustangs over Berlin I knew the jig was up" doesn't exactly make the Mustang "the plane that defeated the Luftwaffe".
The P-47 was probably more responsible for air superiority over Europe than any other Allied fighter. The fact remains that the Mustang did not even equal the P-38 in numbers deployed until April, and by then, the P-47 had enough range to go deep into Germany.
It was a change in tactics that was the main cause if the defeat of the Luftwaffe, far more than any plane. The escorting of bombers at the end of Eaker's tenure was a start of the reversal of Eaker's disaster. The replacement of Eaker with Doolittle and the later release of the fighters from close escort, when combined with greater range for the P-47, allowing it to be a greater factor on deep escort, and the overall increase in numbers of U.S. long range fighters is what finally broke the back of the Luftwaffe.
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Hi Oldman,
>Sez who, bub?
Do I know you from AW?
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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The Me 109, in its several variants and long production run, was an excellent fighter, and the best fighter in the air until the arrival of the Spitfire.
The Spitfire was the first Allied plane in the war to equal the capability of the Me 109. An excellent short range fighter for both defense and offense. Indeed, the only drawback to the Spitfire in later variants was range. It was however rather fragile compared to U.S. fighters.
The Mitsubishi A6M was an great aerobatic dogfighter, and nothing more. It was fragile, and prone to fire, besides being rather slow. It was not necessarily superior to the F4F or the P-40, or even the P-39. However, used the way it was early in the war, it allowed the Japanese to have success due to the bad tactics used by the U.S. Simply put, so long as the U.S. pilots were so foolish as to try to dogfight the Zero, they lost. Once they learned not to knife fight with a slow aerobatic fighter when flying a faster, heavier, but better armed and armor plane, the days of the Zero were over.
The Focke Wulfe FW 190 was a true work horse, and a solid reliable plane with multi role capabilities. A real killer against both fighters and bombers. Possibly, maybe even probably the best German prop fighter of the war.
The P-38 Lightning was a success in both the Pacific and the MTO, and due to its design and the fact that the 8th never knew what to do with it, not a big success in the area of the 8th's operations. To saw it was not a success against the Luftwaffe is a false statement. It was successful in the 9th and 15th AFs. It was NOT a total failure with the 8th. It just wasn't a dramatic success. It still maintained a ration of 1.5 Luftwaffe aircraft destroyed in combat for every 1 P-38 lost for ANY reason. The only U.S. fighter in production form start to finish of hostilities, and shot down more Japanese planes than all others.
The P-47 was a real warhorse. Powerful, fast, heavily armed and armored. Later it had plenty of range once fitted with large external tanks. Rugged enough to be shot to pieces and still fly, it saved many of its pilots, even as a total write off. Easily the toughest ground attack fighter of the ETO, it was one of the best friends the foot soldier had. In Europe, only the P-38 had a heavier and more varied weapons load out or provided a more stable gun platform.
The Vought F4U Corsair. The only fighter tougher than the P-47. The only fighter capable of as heavy a weapons payload as the P-38. It held an 11:1 kill ratio over its enemies. Produced late into the fifties, it had the longest production run of any U.S. prop fighter.
The Grumman Cats, tough and relatively agile, easy to fly, and massively produced, the chief carrier fighters in the U.S. inventory. Fast, tough, and reliable, they were the backbone of the naval air wing.
The P-51 Mustang. A fast, cheap, and easy to produce, nearly disposable fighter. Too late in either Europe or the Pacific to be a war winner, but a capable fighter none the less. It was a relatively simple plane to fly, especially compared to the P-38, although it had no major advantage over a well flown P-38 or P-47 save speed. Had range and speed, and late in the war, mass numbers. It was easy to produce, and easy to maintain. It was 2/3 the price of a P-47 of F4U, and 1/2 the price of a Lightning. It was also incapable of carrying heavy loads of weapons, and it was a very fragile plane when used for ground attack. The cooling system was exceptionally vulnerable, and the engine extremely dependant on it.
The Me 262, the first and only truly successful jet fighter of W.W.II, and the most technologically advanced of the war. Had it not been for the short sightedness of the German leaders, it could have entered the war a year earlier. Had the 8th AF faced the Me262 with Eakers leadership, the disaster that was late 1943 would have been multiplied exponentially.
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I would say the FI-156 Storch. This plane brought us civilians into a realm of private piloted planes that have rocketed into success. I stand on my decision Fi-156!!!!!!!
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Simply having enough range to fly to Berlin from England doesnt make a plane a good escort fighter. Combat uses alot of fuel, and planes such as the P47 and P38 often had to turn back before they escorted the bombers all the way to the target because of combat fuel usage.
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significance...an influence that lasts longer than the intended production run.
With that in mind the Me109, which continued service and production long after the war was obviously a superior plane to the Fw190.
To my knowledge, the Fw stopped with the war; while Spain for one (are there others?) continued with the 109 for some years.
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Fw 190 was used after the war in Turkey.
It was also manufactured in France in post war years.
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Originally posted by niklas
e) Fiesler Storch. First STOL-aircraft :)
niklas
Well, if not for the Storch, Mussolini would have remained in prison a while longer. What that actually meant for the war, I don't know.
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some misc p38 info:
Designed by Kelly Johnson....who also designed the SR71 Blackbird.
Britain ordered 667 of which on 664 were NOT delivered due to teething problems.
The name 'Lightning' came from the British.
The name 'Forked Tailed Devil' came from the Germans in North Africa.
A British pilot in a spitfire accidently shot down the c47 that was delivering the critical parts needed to complete the compressive mods for the p38s in the ETO thus giving the p51 time to catch up in production and surpass the p38.
P38s cost apprx $125,000 1940s $s.
P38 first flew in 1939 @ 420mph a record for the time (thus the British orders of the plane that had up to then only flew total of 5 hours).
CIVILIAN Charles Lindberg shot down a Japanese fighter on July 28, 1944 (himself narrowly escaped being shot down by a zero) he flew several more combat missions before word leaked out and the CO of the squadron was reprimanded and grounded for 60 days.
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Kill stats for the P51
4950 Air Kills, 4131 Ground Kill, 230 V-1 Kills
Thats 9,081 enemy aircraft destroyed
Most of these kills were in the ETO. Kind of hard to destroy 9000+ aircraft if the Luftwaffe were non-existant.
Kill stats for the F6F
4,947 enemy aircraft destroyed in air to air combat.
"The Hellcat was eventually credited with destroying more than 6,000 Japanese aircraft. 4,947 of these by F6Fs of the USN carrier squadrons (209 of the others by land-based Marine Corps F6Fs, and the remainder by Hellcats of other Allied countries). The F6F's most spectacular exploit was the destruction of more than 160 enemy aircraft in one day on 19 June 1944 in the Battle of the Philippine Sea, in the aerial massacre known grimly as "The Great Marianas Turkey Shoot."
Kill stats for the P47
" The P-47 is credited with the destruction of 4.6 enemy aircraft f or the loss of each one of its own number, with some 546,000 combat sorties during which 1,934,000 operational flight hours were accumu- lated, and with the destruction in Europe (excluding the italian front) of 3,752 enemy aircraft in the air and 3,315 on the ground."
Source-http://www.kotfsc.com/aircraft/fighters.htm
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Yup, Fieseler Fi-156 Storch is one of my favorite airplanes. It could fly in full load at down to 51kmh. Could land almost vertically in small breeze. It could takeoff from 20 meter strip, so you could basicly land it on the next road/backyard. Best spotter and liaison aircraft of war with no doubt.
I don't understand how people regard 109 better plane than 190. 190 has awesome controls even at high speed which makes it very easy plane for attacks at speed where 109 is only controllable by trim. 109 is good lonewolf plane in flightsims because of it's awesome climb. But if you have flown 190 teamed up you know it will beat the toejam out of everything. 190 is IMO way better killer than 109. In ideal scenario i would fly in schwarm of 190s at 4km with schwarm of 109s providing top cover at 6km(we did that with our squad in WB and it was VERY VERY effective.) So i could say that 190 and 109 have just different roles. 190s rack the kills while 109s prevent hi cons to enter area.
In AH you could have even doras at med alt with high ta152s....damn that would be something..
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I think there are two view at the "most influential fighters of WW2".
The contruction point and the quantitiy point.
Most influential construtions:
1) BF109, cause after its develepment the bi-plane era was ended
2) FW190, for its multipurpose-Rüstsätze, the All-Electrics-philosophy, with the Kommandogerät the ease-to-use aspect and finally with its easy maintance the reliability aspect
3) ME 262 for the introduction of the jet fighter
4) GO 229 for the introduction of the flying-wing-concept
5)the construtions of Focke-Achilis, that introduced the helicopter design
Most influential quantity:
1) P51, cause the appearance of the P51 in strong numbers sealed the fate of the Luftwaffe
2) P47, see P51
3) F6F, cause it turned the tides for the US in the Pazific Theater
4) Yak 3+9, cause it simpyl overwhelmed the LW in the east, and that combined with an exellent performance
5) B17, cause the appearance of the B17 finally lead to the attrition war the LW could not win
You may ask why i have 5/5 construtions GE and 5/5 quantity allied planes.
Its simple.
Every of this contructions introduced points that are vital for any of todays fighter plane construtions.
All of those planes brought in a major steps in the development of aircraft.
They set new standards.
OK all the allied planes were good cioonstrutions to, but not as innovative.
On the other hand the quantity. Here the most important point is weather it helped to win the war or not.
And no german fighter falls in here, cause they didnt win the war.
When the 109ers productions increased it was already obsolete.
And for all the other german fighters, you can basicly say "if they were produced in greater numbers, they would have had an influence on the course of the war", but as you see there is this little IF.
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I think germans had more shortage of pilots and fuel in 1944/45 than of planes.
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Illo, i always compare it to allied production numbers.
i.e. what are 700 ME262 build against ten-thousands of P47, P51, Yaks and Spits?
Ok once in the air the ME262 might be close to invincible, but the pure number of the hunters makes the life of the fox not safer. :)
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Interesting list Naudet..........but the Go-229 did not introduce the flying wing concept. Jack Northrop had been working on the flying wing concept for a few years and had a patent on a flying wing, before the Go-229.
In all honesty, the idea was being worked on by American, Russian, and German aviation engineers practically simultaneously, so it would be near impossible to credit any one company or individual with the flying wing concept.
Just my two cents...........:)
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Eddiek, i took the GO229, cause from my knowledge it was the 1st flying-wing concept for a fighter.
I know that before the GO229 there were other flying-wings, but those were gliders. Such as the Horten flying wings.
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Originally posted by HoHun
Hi Oldman,
>Sez who, bub?
Do I know you from AW?
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
Of course! "Oldma" in FR.
- Oldman
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Originally posted by illo
I think germans had more shortage of pilots and fuel in 1944/45 than of planes.
That is indeed the case. While production of aircraft did slow at times, in early 1944, several P-38 raids on the oil fields at Ploesti, combined with other raids on German oil production, and strikes against transportation brought German oil, gas, and diesel reserves to levels so low that there was not enough fuel and oil available to allow new pilots to be trained beyond 40 hours. The Luftwaffe began throwing untrained pilots and their instructors at what were becoming seasoned veteran Allied pilots with plenty of planes, fuel, and seat time. It quickly reached the point where Luftwaffe fighter pilots were, at times, ordered not to engage or even take off unless heavy bombers were the target.
After April of 1944, many engagements were decided by sheer weight of numbers and lack of pilot skill, and not the quality of the aircraft involved. Facing 3:1 odds at best, with wingmen and squadmates who were too green and untrained to even be in a fighter, even the best aces were doomed.
The Allies had so many planes and pilots available that the P-47s and P-38s were redirected towards ground attack, which they were well suited for. The P-51 also flew ground attack missions with success, but the P-47 especially was so near indestructable that they became dedicated ground attack aircraft. After D-Day, the majority of air to air combat seen by the P-47 and P-38 was incidental as part of their ground attack missions.
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Virgil, you the 1st US-Citzen ever i see in this board, that agrees to the fact, that the war was basicly won by numerical superiority and difference in pilots quality between the USAAF and the LW.
The planes and their performance were indeed not the decisive factor.
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Originally posted by Naudet
Virgil, you the 1st US-Citzen ever i see in this board, that agrees to the fact, that the war was basicly won by numerical superiority and difference in pilots quality between the USAAF and the LW.
The planes and their performance were indeed not the decisive factor.
Savage was over-generalized. When the critical part of the air war occurred - October, 1943 through March, 1944 - the US fighter force certainly did not outnumber the available Nazi day fighter force. The US won - and the Nazis lost - because of the tactics they used.
- oldman
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Naudet, I've never disputed the fact that as the war progressed the Allies gained the upper hand in aircraft quantity and overall pilot quality. That is pretty much evident to anyone who cares to look at history.
What irritates me is when people start acting like that is an excuse for Germany losing the war.
Allied fighter pilots made their mark long before the numbers swung so dramatically in their favor.
Like Oldman said, at the most critical part of the air war, when the numbers were pretty even,the American and German fighters stood toe to toe and slugged it out, and the American pilots gave better than they got. German pilots had the ability to fly again if shot down and increase their kill total, while Allied pilots were out of the war if they went down in combat, barring a miraculous escape.
Put it this way......what if someone made the statement that Erich Hartmann only ran up his high score because he was facing far inferior planes and undertrained pilots? Probably true, but it still doesn't take away from the fact the he DID achieve a phenomenal kill total, regardless of who or what he faced, even after being shot down himself how many times? Sixteen?
You can temporize and try to rationalize from here to eternity, but the truth is the Allies had just as capable fighters in their inventory as anything the LW could put in the air. Maybe not as technologically advanced in some areas, but still just as capable.
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I can understand the desire to see the noble knights of the Luftwaffe and thier thoroughbred steeds overwhelmed by grubby capitalist production, menial supply inefficiences and an unwashed horde of hoi polloi -
And there may even be a grain of truth in proposing that's indeed how the Allieds won the air war.
Except that's not exactly how the the Luftwaffe lost the war -
From a position of dominance, strength and advantage; over the cliffs of Dover.
One wonders how the Spit avoids being perked, it was so obviously the one single design that exercised the most influence on the course of World War II .
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Hi Oldman,
>Of course! "Oldma" in FR.
Hehe, I thought you were!
So what's your choice for the fighter that defeated the Luftwaffe? By careful reading between the lines, I got the impression you don't agree with my selection ;-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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The guys who are selecting all German aircraft for the 5 most influential fighters are either joking or laughably biased.
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Hi everyone,
here's some background on the employment of the three main USAAF fighter types employed by the 8th Air Force:
P-47: It was the first to be used in numbers. 3 Fighter Groups from 04/1943 to 07/1943, increasing to a maximum of 10 in 01/1944, decreasing to 4 in 05/1944 and only 1 at the end of the war.
P-38: The first P-38 Fighter Group entered combat in 10/1943, the second 01/1944, third 03/1944, fourth 05/1944. The maximum of four groups was help in operation for 3 months before 3 of the 4 groups converted to Mustangs, soon followed by the last one.
P-51: The 354th Fighter Group entering combat 12/1943, 6 weeks after the first P-38 group. (To be accurate, it actually was a 9th Air Force unit. Since the 8th wanted the Mustangs, they virtually swapped the P-47 equipped 358th Fighter Group against the 354th's support.) The next P-51 Fighter Groups were P-47 fighter groups converting 02/1944, 03/1944, 04/1944, and 06/1944 about half of the 8th Air Force Fighter Groups were equipped with Mustangs.
Here's a breakdown by month and type, including the 354th:
04/1943: 3 FG P-47
05/1943: 3 FG P-47
06/1943: 3 FG P-47
07/1943: 3 FG P-47
08/1943: 4 FG P-47
09/1943: 6 FG P-47
10/1943: 7 FG P-47, 1 P-38
11/1943: 7 FG P-47, 1 P-38
12/1943: 9 FG P-47, 1 P-38, 1 P-51
01/1944: 10 FG P-47, 2 P-38, 1 P-51
02/1944: 9 FG P-47, 2 P-38, 2 P-51
03/1944: 8 FG P-47, 3 P-38, 3 P-51
04/1944: 7 FG P-47, 3 P-38, 4 P-51
05/1944: 6 FG P-47, 4 P-38, 6 P-51
06/1944: 4 FG P-47, 4 P-38, 8 P-51
07/1944: 4 FG P-47, 4 P-38, 8 P-51
08/1944: 4 FG P-47, 1 P-38, 11 P-51
(Deployment according to Francillon's "USAAF Figher Units - Europe 1942 - 45")
From the loss ratios of the heavy bombers, it's obvious that the defeat of the Luftwaffe was completed by 06/1944, but also that the Luftwaffe had hardly lost its abilities to harm the bombers in 04/1944. The turning point appears to have been 05/1944.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Originally posted by Naudet
Virgil, you the 1st US-Citzen ever i see in this board, that agrees to the fact, that the war was basicly won by numerical superiority and difference in pilots quality between the USAAF and the LW.
The planes and their performance were indeed not the decisive factor.
Naudet, I think you confused what I was saying slightly.
My point was that no single Allied plane actually brought about the defeat of the Luftwaffe. It was a change in tactics in late 1943, and further changes in that same direction, when Ira Eaker was replaced by Jimmy Doolittle as commander of the 8th AF, that actually turned the corner.
Further, by April, when it is generally accepted that the Luftwaffe was finished as far as air superiority was concerned, the P-51 had just equalled the P-38 in numbers deployed, which was still a lower number than the number of P-47s deployed.
Added to that fact is in the spring of 1944, the German petroleum production and the German transportation system was badly wrecked, and only getting worse. As that situation continually worsened for Germany, it became nearly impossible to train replacement pilots, and to have enough fuel to actually fly missions at all. This was also brought about by the changes in tactics, as petroleum and transportation were increasingly the primary targets of ALL Allied air action.
So you see, when the Luftwaffe was for all intents and purposes reduced to an ineffective struggling air force, the P-51 had not yet even reached the point of making up 1/3 of the Allied fighter force flying over the continent.
It is quite obvious it was not the P-51 that defeated the Luftwaffe, but rather a complete change in tactics over the 5 months between October 1943 and February 1944, along with a build up of ALL U.S. fighters in Europe, and the increased use of larger fuel capacities making long range escorts and deep penetration raids possible.
By HoHun's figures, you can see that in September of 1943, there were only 6 fighter groups, all flying P-47s. By February, there were 13, and still the majority were P-47s. Not until June did the P-51 exceed the P-47 in number of groups deployed, June is a month (or two, depending on how you count) AFTER it is generally accepted that the Luftwaffe was finished.
Once you reach June of 1944, you can safely assume that the final complete decimation of the Luftwaffe was accomplished with superior numbers and better pilots as a group, because Germany simply began to run short of everything, planes, fuel, oil, and quality pilots. But the Luftwaffe was defeated by April, the period from April 1944 until May 1945 was simply a sad waste of men and machines in a war that was already over.
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Hi Hilts,
>Further, by April, when it is generally accepted that the Luftwaffe was finished as far as air superiority was concerned, [...]
The loss ratio of USAAF bombers shows the Luftwaffe's capability to harm the bombers was largely intact in April 1944. The first sign of Luftwaffe weakness came in May, and bomber losses were down to a minimum in June 1944 for the first time.
>[...] the P-51 had just equalled the P-38 in numbers deployed
Have a look of the cumulated Fighter Group months until 06/1944:
P-47: 89
P-38: 21
P-51: 25
The P-51 had as much theatre presence as the P-38 throughout the period that saw the defeat of the Luftwaffe, and thanks to its better servicability, its sortie count should be expected to have been quite a bit higher. Additionally, bad weather and short daylight periods in the winter months meant that the sortie count in these months was low, so most of the decisive action took place from 03/1944 on.
The P-47's 89 in-theatre fighter group months of course dwarve the P-38's and P-51's combined 46, but its range limitations meant that it couldn't bring its strength to bear on the Luftwaffe.
Clearly, the least significant of these three fighters was the P-38.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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I will clear my statement abbout superior allied numbers, just so you dont think i am searching for an excuse why GE lost the war.
I am glad we lost, very glad. But on the other side there are some allieds myths that are often quoted that are simply not ture.
My statement actually just meant the quality of the aircraft designs were not the decisive factor in the ETO.
Numbers, tactics and pilot quality were the decisive fields and on all those 3 fields the GE LW fell behind from mid 1943.
Here now a my view at the airbattle in the west (very generalized).
1941-1942 the westfront LW Geschwaders fight the RAF. Even in this period - there most successful - the LW is outnumbered, there were never more than about 240-280 fighters, against a far greater number of RAF fighters.
1943 the 8th USAAF arrives, the numbers increase in allied favour, many of the LW most experienced westfront pilots die through the attrition (endless missions without rest etc.), the replacement pilots are not trained like the pilots from 1939-42 were
1944 the 8th USAAF increases fast, now the whole "Reich" is the battleground, LW replacement pilots lack even more training
1945 total breakdown of the LW
my intention, is to counter many subjective visions of US-Pilots reports from WW2 especially those of P51 pilots.
You can always find passages like "the P51 was in my eyes the best fighter ever" or "i could outfly any of my adversaries" and so on.
Most people i know use such statements as argument that i.e. the P51 was a way better plane than any LW fighter, but they dont acount for the circumstances. Most fights by P51 pilots were flown with the advantages off greater number and better training on their side.
A LW pilot with 10-20 hours of basic training on his combat ride, cant fly that thing as good as a US-pilot with hundreds of hours of extensive combat training to his credit.
I dont doubt that the P51 (or P47 or P38) was a good fighter and one that did its intended role as a long range escort fighter very well. but it is not the best fighter ever.
Both the tempest and the Spit XIV were better "pure" fighters than the P51 (or P47 or P38), but they both lacked the incredible range of the P51.
That is the thing i want to point out.
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"1941-1942 the westfront LW Geschwaders fight the RAF. Even in this period - there most successful - the LW is outnumbered, "
Again, you seem to forget to mention 1940. Why would that be?
And I disagree with your contention that 1941-42 were the LW's most successfull years; many, many people would say 1938/9 would be counted in that catagory. Or perhaps Poland doesn't count?
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Seeker, 1st i start 1941 cause there teh LW in the west went defensive.
1940 was still an offensive year with the BoB and the BoB was a disaster for the LW.
In BoB the fighter forces were about the same, with a quality superiory to the 109 E4, due to the low number of spits involved.
1941-42 were the most successful years in the WEST. Here is just the K/D decisive the channelsquadrons earned against the RAF.
In those years the channelsquadrons could fight on their terms in a defensive airbattle. Also important that with the introduction of the FW190 the LW had a huge quality edge, that was ot countered till in 1942 the Spit IX squads grew in number.
Everything above just counts for the west airwar front. Ground, east, africa and so on are not included.
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S! Naudet.
A digression:
It would seem that the decline in the LW effectivness as a weapon of war co-incided with the switch from Blitzkrieg style close co-operation with the ground forces to a more "pure" air command role.
Would it not be true to say that the LW's true vital weaknesses were appaling intelligence capabilities, and an inability to switch contexts? Whilst it's true to say there were some high ranking LW staff who grasped the concept of Air war (Galland seems to be conspicous in this regard); in general, the German high command never really saw air power as a means to an end in it's own right, but as always subservient to the needs, aims and stratergies of the ground forces?
As you correctly say, post 1940, in the west at least, the LW was defensive in it's air operations, and lost.
In the east, it was offensive, and achieved some success (with the notable debacle of Stalingrad, where all promises of supply and cover were broken).
Has a defensive action ever been won by the LW? The Finns managed it using LW equipment, what was the difference in tactical doctrine?
We'll find out in the Sicily scenario, if the Allieds ever find the balls to show up................
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Originally posted by Naudet
Both the tempest and the Spit XIV were better "pure" fighters than the P51 (or P47 or P38), but they both lacked the incredible range of the P51.
Don't forget the Yak3/9u and the LA7 they were good too.
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Wow! Friends, dont forget about russian fighters!
Yak-1(1940-year of the beginning of manufacture) 8721 pieces issued(all modifications)
Yak-7(1940) 6399
Yak-9(1942) 16769
Yak-3(1943) 4848
Il-2(attacker-fighter) (1939) 36163 pieces!!!
Il-10 (1944) 4955
Lagg-3(1940) 6528
La5(1942) 10003
La7(1944) 5905
MiG-3(1940) 3272
I-16 (1933) 9450
I-153(1938) 3437
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Seeker, i will follow you in this digression. :)
I think the LW lost the airwar, especially in the west through the inflexibility of the high command (especially Goering and Hitler himself).
The LW command didnt see the neccessity to produce masses of fighters for the defense before the early 1944. Before that any plane that was planned for production, must have had the ability to carry bombs.
This stupidy lead i.e. to a 6 month delay in ME262 production start, cause it was not cleared for mass production till it could be used as a fighter-bomber!
The problem was - as you mentioned- that the German Army in general treated the LW more as an assistance to the ground forces, especially the tanks. And when the LW was confronted with a defensive situation the command wasn't able to switch contexts.
The LW didnt really have the equitment for a defensive war till mid 1944 and than this equitment could not bring in its performance, cause the pilots that could fly it were dead or badly inexperienced.
I believe that the only defensive action won during the war by the LW were the engagement over france with the RAF in 1941 and 1942. Those were credited mainly to A. Gallands ability to switch tactics and adoped new ways of fighting.
In all larger defensive actions the LW lost, cause the whole command staff was still thinking "offensive" and could not react to the "new way" of war they had to fight.
On the other hand the fins concentrated on the defense and they acted according to this tactical doctrine. But even they couldnt stand the numbers and had to accept a peace dictate in 1944.
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I will off course put the P47 in that list.
It's like the Hurricane compared to the Spit in the BoB.
The P47 got overshadowed by the P51 and other planes but the Jug came in early into the conflict, did all type of work (A2A, A2G), participated in all Theaters of Operation, and got constantly upgraded till the end of the war till the ultimate beast (N/M models).
It also racked up some trophies (Most kills, top speed blahblah...)
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The P51 scored more kills than the P47
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You shouldn't forget that Soviet ground forces were thing that weighted most in crushing germans. Many people interested in air war (west) fail to see the overall picture. In the last weeks of war crippled Luftwaffe still flew organized missions at their main front east. They could gain local airsuperiority in chosen area at time and scored last victories. But at ground, war was lost years ago.
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Has a defensive action ever been won by the LW? The Finns managed it using LW equipment, what was the difference in tactical doctrine?
I think that we finns probably couldn't have stopped Soviet summer offensive at Karelian Ithmus without help from Luftwaffe. Gefechtsverband Kuhlmey (consisting of Stukas and II/JG54 190 jabos) was trasferred to Immola airfield at summer 1944. Their success in attacking soviet spearheads is confirmed by FAF pilots and finnish ground forces. II/JG54 commanded by Erich Rudoffer scored 66 aerial victories during this short ground attack assignment. .
(http://www.luftwaffepics.com/LCBW4/FW190-53.jpg)
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Northrop XP-56, flying wing that flew in 1943, conceived as a result of an informal competition in 1939 . Notice the 'P' for "pursuit"(fighter). It had more air time than the Horten.;)
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In my opinion it was the P-38 that set the tone for all American fighter designs of the war, inluding durablity, range and fire power.
For those who say that the P38 didnt have the range to escrot bombers into the heart of Germany. The P38 was the first American aircraft to escort Allied bombers on mission to Berlin. Escorting all the way to the target and back. Also the P38 was the first American production aircraft to achieve over 400 MPH in level flight.
All in all the P38 had more first then any other aircraft in the American arsenal at the time. Unfortunatley it was ahead of its time in many regards and got a bad rep in the ETO due the incorrect fuel being used, problems with the superchargers and a heating system that left a lot to be desired. By the time these issues were resolved the P51 had arrived and as was mentioned earlier it was more cost effective, and had better performance in key areas.
Keep in mind when I choose the P38 as one of the most influencial aircraft of the war I am not looking at its performance. I am looking at innovation and what was applied from it for many generations of aircraft to come.
Just my opinion. Though.
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Originally posted by fdiron
The P51 scored more kills than the P47
True. And the Hellcat scored more kills than the Wildcat. But the P-47 and the Wildcat both had significantly greater effects on the war than the other two, because they met the cream of the enemy air force, and killed it.
- oldman
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Originally posted by fdiron
The P51 scored more kills than the P47
Having the P47's switched over to the ground attack role is a big part of that number I'm sure.
I don't just look at planes destroyed. Start adding in how much the Jug contributed to the overall war effort including ground attack, and that puts the Jug easily at the top of my list. :)
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Banzaii, another first ... p38 first fighter over Japan.
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I think the hurricane was more influencial on the outcome of the bob, however the spitfire was more influencial on the public .
The zero ofcourse becuase it had the range to attack Pearl and awake a sleeping giant .
The p51 becuase it protected the bombers destroying german cities.
I'm not sure the USSR had any one influencial fighter, the IL2 but that's not a fighter .
As far as Germany is concerned I don't think they had any influencial fighters . Yes the 109 was the most prolific fighter of wwII but did it change the course of the war ? And I'm aware that indeed the advent of the 109 changed aircombat tactics forever, however that was in the spanish civil war, not wwII. The fw190 while it did give to germany a period of short lived air superiority, I don't think it alone was very inluencial apart from encouraging Germany's enemies to make better fighters. The me262, very significant but I don't think it influenced the outcome of the war.
Although I do think the most influencial plane of the war was a german plane, the stuka . Under blitzkrieg in the dictionary there should be a picture of that ugly little plane. The stuka sank battleships, cruisers, destroyers, and destroyed how many DIVISIONS of tanks ? It fought on three continents, and was in service from the first day of WWII untill the end of the war in europe .
Having said this, I think that there were only three fighters that influenced the course of wwII remarkably. They are in order of most influencial:
1. Mitsubishu zero (brought US into war)
2. Hawker Hurricane (Did the most to save Britain in bob)
3. P51 Mustang (instrumental in the strategic destruction Germany)
However I must chose five, so..
4. Me109 (most prolific fighter of wwII)
5. Spitfire (for it's contribution to UK morale and that of Georring's LW)
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I agree Lephturn. However, the P51 scored half of its 9,000 kills on parked aircraft. After the bombers dropped their bombs on the target, P51s were allowed to strafe ground targets at will
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Originally posted by Samm
I'm not sure the USSR had any one influencial fighter, the IL2 but that's not a fighter .
I'd say the I-16 was influencial, since it was one of, if not, the first mass produced monoplane fighters with retracticle landing gear. It's influence was mostly before the war, but it is still a WW2 fighter.
The French fighters with their Hispano turbolaser cannons were also infuential on armaments. IMHO
The 262 also. It heavily influenced post war fighter design.
I'm not sure who came up with the bubble canopy. There are some early Japanese and British fighters w/bubbles.