Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Urchin on October 29, 2001, 06:45:00 PM
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Well, the time has come for me to raise the bat in my weary hands and beat the hell out of this dead horse again.
Well, I corralled a fella (Redwolf, and a big <S> out to ya man ) into helping me with my "study". We were both tired though, so we didn't get past the initial ten test run, which was 190A8 vs B17 (tail guns only). As a note, on the first run where I took 30 hits, I did NOT die. I flew past B17. I lost the engine, suffered a whole pile of damage, but the plane was still flyable. On 9 of the 10 attacks, the engine went about halfway through the "burst" I took (he was firing really short bursts to make sure every round hit, I'd lose the engine about halfway through, then lose a wing [7 of 10] or the tail [2 of 10].
Anyway, here is what we came up with for the results. These results were obtained by flying a 190A8 straight and level behind a B17 while the B17 fired only its tailguns. We obtained the number of rounds fired by checking the ammunition counter before and after every kill. He did miss with 1 or 2 rounds on perhaps half of the kills he said.
He started firing when I crossed d500- that may skew the results, we'll have to try different ranges.
26,29,27,22,32,30*,26,30,15,18.
Works out to an average of 22.5 .50 caliber rounds hitting to kill a 190A8, the "armored" "buff-killer" 190. That number is actually shockingly low to me, it usually sounds like more hits than that.
Again, I'm curious as to whether the strength of the .50 caliber machine guns in the Ground Vehicles (particularly the M3) and the bombers (particularly the Lancaster) are consistant with the strength of the .50 caliber machineguns mounted in fighters.
I did do the brief study with the Lanc's guns and it worked out to an average of 22.5 rounds per kill (of a 190A8). I haven't compared this to the number of rounds that a fighter needs to kill the 190, although I suspect it would be significantly higher than 22.5 rounds. I think to really compare the strength of the rounds I would need to fire the guns in the same situation, which means I could not use the Lancaster for my experiment (because the fighter would have to be firing at the tail of the 190). This is rather dissapointing because I honestly feel that the Lancaster's .50 caliber guns are the ones that are a little out of whack, not the guns in the B-26 or the B-17.
Hitech, perhaps you could save me the trouble and inform me whether or not the bombers and GV's have .50 caliber machineguns that hit significantly harder than their equivalents mounted on fighters? If so, why is this the case?
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I'm not real clear on how BUFF gunnery works, but don't all guns track and shoot at the same target if within aspect? So I wonder if in your tests more than one turret is firing at your target.
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No.. it is possible to fire only the station you are sitting at. The test was made firing ONLY the twin ".50 caliber" machineguns in the Lancs tail.
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Originally posted by Steven:
I'm not real clear on how BUFF gunnery works, but don't all guns track and shoot at the same target if within aspect? So I wonder if in your tests more than one turret is firing at your target.
If you push button2 than only the guns that you are using will fire
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You can lose an entire wing to 2 or 3 pings...I'm sure that's realistic :rolleyes:
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Raub.. AH has this neat "feature", which is you don't actually hear every shot hitting your plane. So while on you (or my) end, it appears that the Lanc managed to hit you 3 times with the twin .50s, he in fact managed to hit you 10 times for every ping you hear.
At least that is the theory.
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Urchin,
The armor on an Fw190A-8 is not nearly think enough to stop a .50 cal round that hits directly. It might stop a .50 cal round that is comming in at a heavy angle and it can stop fragments.
The armor on the Fw190A-8 only makes it a bit less likely to be destroyed, not invulnerable or even highly resistant.
To set up an accurate durability test you need to position your self a set distance behind the B-17/Lanc on his FE. Then he needs to carefully hit you with as many rounds per burst as possible while firing as few rounds per burst as possible.
In a test like this I found that 12 .50 rounds from a P-38 at 50 yards will completely sever a Lanc's wing.
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I find that rather interesting, to be honest, because 150+ rounds from the F6F did NOT sever the wing of a Lanc from 400 yards. However, his rounds did manage to sever both wings, the tail, the engine, and give me a pilot wound.
By the way, I don't KNOW it was 150 rounds, but I do know I caught him on his bomb run and had plenty of time to line up a steady shot from his dead 6. I fired perhaps a 3 second burst with all guns, all the sprites landed on his right wing (from the root to the edge). I don't know the ROF for .50 caliber machineguns, but I think it is quite likely that I landed 150 rounds with a 3 second burst on a nonmanuevering target at 400 yards. He then proceeded to explode my airplane as I broke down and to the right. I heard a grand total of 3 pings, obviously there must have been more than that.
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Ahhh the buff myth rears its ugly head again.
OK, Urchin, tell you what, u grab a car, sit in it, I'll swing round the front with a .50 cal and send 22.5 (or is it 45 as there are two .50 cal's on that station?) at you and we'll see how you feel :)
Now... ARE YOU PEOPLE JUST BORN STUPID OR DO YOU LEARN IT?
First off all, you are hitting a fighter with the singular most lethal angle possible. Flying the A8 like that gives the bullets BEST velocity, and most damaging travel through a wing. Take a fighter wing, examine the thickness, then imagine 5 .50 cals tearing along it from that angle. They leave LONG damaging trails of destruction. Then do the same from above... that leave little tiny holes of destruction. GET IT?
I mean for godsake - if a 190 pilot sat nice and steady for the gunner he could probably kill the silly bastard with a pistol and one bullet let alone 22.5 .50's!
I have shot down 5 Lancasters with one ammo load in a tiffie. I have shot 7 B17s with one ammo load in a tiffie. I've also managed to survive those encounters with minimal or no damage.
Then theres this lame statement:
"because 150+ rounds from the F6F did NOT sever the wing of a Lanc from 400 yards. However, his rounds did manage to sever both wings, the tail, the engine, and give me a pilot wound."
followed by this supendous show of idiocy:
"but I do know I caught him on his bomb run and had plenty of time to line up a steady shot from his dead 6."
First, you sat on his dead 6. DUH!?!?!
Second, you say he was on his bomb run YET he shot you down. DOUBLE DUH!?!?!?!
Third, you say you had plenty of time which indicates to me you weren't making fast paces THEREFORE you were slow on his dead 6 TRIPLE DUH!?!?!?!
What I read here is Darwinian theory at its best. Only issue is you don't really DIE.
Next village-idiot PLEASE!
p.s. urchin don't take it personal I just get sick of this silly argument.
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Actually i dont think that 22.5 bullets for a fighter kill are to much. Especially as u shot at it to the front.
All important part eng, radiators are there.
it would a different thing if u would be able to kill a fighter with 22.5 rounds from behind or 6 o'clock high.
And as Vulcan mentioned, the angle of travel of the bullest also play a role. And thats whats not modeled in AH.
So if say 5 0.5 cals from dead ahead would cripple a wing, in AH the also do it if u shoot from dead above at the wing.
In real life the dead ahead attack would lead to major damage to the wingstructure (if we assume the bullets dont change there way once they hit a "hard tgt") while the dead above attack would only lead to 5 relativly small holes in the wing.
And i did some nice buff intercepting lately, i noticed that a Lanc cant do much harm if u constantly do a belly attack. And B17 can be effectivly attacked from ahead best from an alt advantage a a 10-20 degree angle off.
one major prob the lonewolf buffs of AH present to fighter jockey is that they have much more freedom to maneuver than real life buffs. A b17 or Lanc in formation cant do that last hope 180 degree turn once u zoom up from down below.
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Doesnt the LANC have .303s ?
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HT state in a previous post that .50 cal buff guns are identical to .50 cal fighter guns.
And its true that you don't hear some of the pings from the buff hits. You gun in a buff and watch the guy light up like a christmas tree and fly off. You need to really get good sustained hits in a buff to rip a fighter apart.
I think the problem is people think "its only a bomber" but you should really think of it as HO'ing a superstrong P47 / P51 flying backwards.
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At any given time a b17 can have 8-50s pointed at you. I dont know if any of you are keen on the jug but those 8-50s dont have a bit of a problem shreding someone HO.
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As inconvienient as it may be, the .50 cal is a hell of a weapon with a lot of punch. There was a reason it was adequate as the main gun on recon M-113s and other scout vehicles until the Bradley generation came along (yeah, foreign AFVs had 20mm but it wasn't really necessiary until the bradley generation with heavier armor).
If a .50 can handle a BMP or BRDM then I think it can handle a fw-190A8. The extra armor was there to enhance survivability, particlulary in a slashing attack environment, not ensure it.
Charon
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Woo hoo. It's Dingleberry Buffgun wine season. Only the finest from UrchinFarms in Sapa Valley, Kaliforn_aye_yay to boot! An uncompromising deal at .98 for a 5 gallon jug.
<hiccup>
I think the problem is in the user end personally.
Westy
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i don't get this superbuff thing.
every time i dare take one up (to even out my score, im such a lamer) i get shot down.
i can ping a guy 10000 times it seems and he's still able to waste me from dead 6. i guess i just suck or something cuz when i try to do it, even my 30mms never do the damage I want.
everyone must be hacking. you morons.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel:
You can lose an entire wing to 2 or 3 pings...I'm sure that's realistic :rolleyes:
Yes it used to much worse. You would hear every ping.
This would force you the indignity of hearing pings while your plane was a fireball falling out of the sky. If your attacker pulled off seconds ago.
If you bailed quickly, you would hear pings in your chute.
The last and final indignity was when you were puffed, your plane exploded, and you sit at your monitor furious, listening to yet more pings.
<S>
:)
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Aim for the wingtips of 17's, even a 1 second burst with 4 .50's can drop a 17 that way.
As for lancs, if you can't paste the cockpit, I haven't found its weakness.
SKurj
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the ping hearing thing still happened in GVs before 1.08. dunno about since it came out.
next, different buff positions NEVER converge, the lines of fire are always parallel (save for when the gun just can't deflect that far, e.g. in the waist or tail position). hitech stated this about a month ago. The positions deflect by the same amount, and don't automagically converge on your target.
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"As for lancs, if you can't paste the cockpit, I haven't found its weakness."
The tail. They flutter off real nice in reaction to a good burst.
Westy
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Originally posted by Vulcan:
Ahhh the buff myth rears its ugly head again.
OK, Urchin, tell you what, u grab a car, sit in it, I'll swing round the front with a .50 cal and send 22.5 (or is it 45 as there are two .50 cal's on that station?) at you and we'll see how you feel :)
Now... ARE YOU PEOPLE JUST BORN STUPID OR DO YOU LEARN IT?
First off all, you are hitting a fighter with the singular most lethal angle possible. Flying the A8 like that gives the bullets BEST velocity, and most damaging travel through a wing. Take a fighter wing, examine the thickness, then imagine 5 .50 cals tearing along it from that angle. They leave LONG damaging trails of destruction. Then do the same from above... that leave little tiny holes of destruction. GET IT?
I mean for godsake - if a 190 pilot sat nice and steady for the gunner he could probably kill the silly bastard with a pistol and one bullet let alone 22.5 .50's!
I have shot down 5 Lancasters with one ammo load in a tiffie. I have shot 7 B17s with one ammo load in a tiffie. I've also managed to survive those encounters with minimal or no damage.
Then theres this lame statement:
"because 150+ rounds from the F6F did NOT sever the wing of a Lanc from 400 yards. However, his rounds did manage to sever both wings, the tail, the engine, and give me a pilot wound."
followed by this supendous show of idiocy:
"but I do know I caught him on his bomb run and had plenty of time to line up a steady shot from his dead 6."
First, you sat on his dead 6. DUH!?!?!
Second, you say he was on his bomb run YET he shot you down. DOUBLE DUH!?!?!?!
Third, you say you had plenty of time which indicates to me you weren't making fast paces THEREFORE you were slow on his dead 6 TRIPLE DUH!?!?!?!
What I read here is Darwinian theory at its best. Only issue is you don't really DIE.
Next village-idiot PLEASE!
p.s. urchin don't take it personal I just get sick of this silly argument.
Well, I'll go through here and try to answer you point by point.
1. No, it averaged out to 22.5 rounds TOTAL. We counted the TOTAL number of bullets fired (by taking the amount of ammunition and then subracting the NEW amount of ammunition).
2. Ok, I can buy this. However, I would like to ask a few questions. Or perhaps, since you are obviously much more intelligent than me, you can answer my original question. How many bullets will be fired from 6 .50 caliber machinguns in 3 seconds? I was lining up the shot from 2 kilometers away, going about 400 mph. I know I'm not as skilled as you are Vulcan, but even I am capable of using the zoom function to line up a shot on a very LARGE target flying in a straight line. I'd even be generous and say figure only 25% of the rounds I fired actually hit (even though that isn't the case). So, if it takes 5 bullets to do so much damage to a fighter wing that it renders it unflyable, how many bullets would do the EXACT SAME THING to the wing of a bomber? Mind you, the bullets would be entering at the same AoA, so the assumption is that they would do just as much damage to the plane being attacked in this case.
Furthermore, although you didn't bring this up while criticizing my "stupidity", he started firing AFTER I broke off. As I broke to the right in a descending turn, he absolutely hammered me. I'm a comparitive neophyte in the F6F (I was flying it in practice, in case we get assigned Allied in the next TOD), but unless firing 6 .50s significantly slows your plane down, I don't see how it is possible for you to assume I was SLOW on his 6, especially since by the time he opened fire I was NO LONGER POINTED AT HIM.
By the way Vulcan, I honestly don't care how many buffs you have killed with the Hizookas mounted in your Tiffie. For whatever reason, the Hispano is the most effective cannon in the game on just about any target (from fighters to buffs to vehicles to buildings), and I believe that may skew your results just a tad.
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"Raub.. AH has this neat "feature", which is you don't actually hear every shot hitting your plane. So while on you (or my) end, it appears that the Lanc managed to hit you 3 times with the twin .50s, he in fact managed to hit you 10 times for every ping you hear"
No, he's right. Wings and entire parts of the planes DO come off with 2-4 pings. Park your fighter right besides a hill. Now get the M3 on the slope of the hill. Use a steep hill for this of course.
Now, you can actually fire 1 or 2 bullets at a time with that gun. Aim at the wingtips, they fall off on the 2nd bullet on avg. Hit the wing roots, the whole wing falls off with 4 bullets. Tails fall off with 2 or 3 bullets. (P-38). On the 38, aim for the little stub thing on the middle of the tail boom, for some weird reason, hitting it makes the entire plane blow up the great majority of times. Make the 38 FACE the hill next and have the M3 aim at the nose of the 38... on average, 3 out of 20 times hitting the nose makes the tail boom snap off.
Kinda cool huh? I dont know nor care about other planes, so I dunno if others have the same problem.
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Originally posted by SKurj:
Aim for the wingtips of 17's, even a 1 second burst with 4 .50's can drop a 17 that way.
As for lancs, if you can't paste the cockpit, I haven't found its weakness.
SKurj
I can't beleive I'm letting this secret out, but why not...the Whines are getting boring I suppse :)
1) Wingtips. If you can snap a wing tip off a Lanc, they are dead. I dunno who it is, but there are 1 or 2 folks that fly very wide of me, make sweeping attacks and almost aways take out a rudder or wing tip. You just can't compensate for that loss of a wing tip and roll down into the earth.
2) Belly attacks. Tail gun can't reach em down there and if they pop vertical under the Lancaster, they can hammer the main fuel tanks. I've had many a night where I see an La7 come up, go under me and I watch helplessly from the F3 view him go vertical, light me up and I explode.
B-17s are a different story, they seem to be able to fire from every angle, do amazing hits from 1.9k out, etc. I was sitting on a B-17s 3 oclock at 2k out last night and he managed to pop my P-38s engines (both) in one ping. Its utterly amazing.
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I always aim for wings or tails when attacking a buff from the high 9 or high 3 clk position. a single wing on a large buff is almost the same size as a P51 width (tip to tip) so its not a hard target to focus on.
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Cut the buffers some slack....
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cc marcof
These whines about aircraft that most guys here have probably 10:1 K/D ratios against are sickening.
Make the buff require a 6 second burst with no misses with 6 .50's before it takes any real damage, and then ya can adjust them guns, the laser accuracy etc etc, oh yeah and at the same time increase the climbrate and speed of them, so they can fly as many missions as the fighter jocks.
SKurj
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OK Urchin, let me understand this:
"How many bullets will be fired from 6 .50 caliber machinguns in 3 seconds?"
followed by:
"going about 400 mph"
and further up:
"but I think it is quite likely that I landed 150 rounds with a 3 second burst on a nonmanuevering target at 400 yards"
So Urchin, my problem is, how the hell you stayed at 400 yards range doing 400mph for at least of 3 seconds? Unless of course there is a new Lanc that does 400mph?
So what is it then?
Now by my calculations you would have been doing something in the area of 180ish yards per second. Lets say the Lanc was going half your speed, that drops it to 90 yards per second. So in that 3 seconds the range between you and the target varied by 270 yards at least.
So, we have a convergence spread of 270 yards over 150 rounds. Lets say 50% of the rounds made it into the target, thats 75 rounds. Now take the triangle of convergence, lets say the guns on the plane are around 6 yards apart (guessing here). And you have your convergence set at 400 yards. At 200 yards inside the convergence point the spread is 3 yards, at 135 yards inside the spread is around 2 yards.
So assuming the firing started at convergence -135 yards (400-135) and ended at convergence +135 yards (400+135) then likely spread is 75 rounds applied to a 2 yard circle. If you started firing earlier or later then the circle grows. So 2 yards is going to be YOUR best.
Now this of course assumes you are a perfect aim, that you consistantly adjust for correction, which, of course is impossible. So lets assume the circle of hits moves across the wing root slightly, and we say there are in effect 3 circles (3 seconds worth). You end up with 3 2 yard circles taking 25 .50 cal rounds through them.
Now, go look at a Lanc wing.
My theory -> the Lanc wing looked like swiss cheese, but you didn't necessarily do the structural damage.
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No, on that you'd be correct. I don't know how fast he was going, but I opened up at 400-450 yards and fired for about 3 seconds.
Now, MY question is.. how many round did I fire? I don't know, I didn't have time to check the ammo counter. What is the rate of fire on a .50 caliber MG? Karnak said that 8 .50 caliber rounds will totally sever a Lanc's wing at 50 yards. I hit with far more than 8 rounds. Does the .50 caliber lose power exponentially over each 100 yards or something? I didn't think that it did, but that may very well be possible. What I do know is that I was closing fairly rapidly on the Lanc, I'd put his speed at roughly 275 and mine at roughly 400. I was within 300 yards when I broke off, I know that for sure, and I also know I was outside of 600 yards (and again, not pointing or flying towards him anymore) when he started shooting me back.
My convergence in the F6F is whatever the default convergence is, I didn't change it.
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In AH the .50s fire 800 rounds/minute. There is a marked decrease in hitting power with range.
Hooligan
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800 rpm - that gives him around 240 rounds.
However, 275 seems a little fast fer a Lanc. I believe the default for the F6F is around 250 yards. So if you started firing at 400ish and broke off at 300 then you never even got close to convergence. So theres your first answer.
Secondly, I firmly believe 99% of the attack is in the method not necessarily the guns. On a Lanc I look for belly hit or, preferably, come straight down on the cockpit. I also come in pretty damn close, ie close enough to make collisions likely. So breaking off at 300 yards doesn't cut it for a good buff attack.
Tell you what, I'll go buff hunting in an F6F and we'll see what happens.
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Occasionally I'll take a lanc or b17 up to do some bombing. And these guys spits or whatever will come climbing up to me with a closure rate of almost nothing. Then they'll sit there on my 6 slowly gaining and at 1.2k i'll popem like lil cherry's and wonder wtf they were thinking?
Other times a guy'll hang back and climb above me and I pretty much know whats gonna happen. It's very difficult to scored hits when someones diving on you from an angle off you 6 or 12.
Also the Lanc belly attack works well but some guys will chuck in full rudder and mess your attack up terribly leaving you hanging slow on their 6 oclock.
Basically if you wanna survive a buff attack against a good buffer, get 2 - 3k above and slightly in front and vertical dive on them aiming for the cockpit the whole time which will put rounds nice and neatly along the entire length of the fuselage.
Done properly the buff will more then likely exploded before you pass the tail gun.
BTW B17 ball turret is extremely difficult to aim if your coming up pure vertical and its only 2 .50's. Also theres not alot of ammo in them either.
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Urchin has 17 kills and has been killed 3 times against the B-17G.
Urchin has 7 kills and has been killed 0 times against the B-26B.
Urchin has 14 kills and has been killed 3 times against the Lancaster III.
Urchin has no problem killing buffs like all you "experten". When he died from them 6 times I bet he went at them no differently when he killed them the other 39 times.
While I at one point used to get pissed if I repeated the same successful attack 50 times and died once. I now just take it with a grain of salt.
I'm a firm believer that every "whine" doesn't deserve a reply. But I certainly understand what hes talking about. Not everyone who dies to a buff goes at umm ded 6 or flies them hiszooka planes.
When I first came to AH I remember the "every round modelled" was a big selling point to me. I had assumed that every "ping" would be as well. Thats odvisouly not true. A single .50 cal couldn't destroy an a8 like it was hit with thors hammer. :rolleyes:
I'm not a "ballistics" or "FM" expert but I know when I die from a buff its the same 99% of the time. I'm hit after I make a pass as I am really fast and breaking away. Those are rare yes but enough to bunch the leather thong.
Much like the colisions here I guess I'll have to live with it.
I don't think Urchin is an "idiot" or "stupid". Hes a great guy always putting himself at risk to clear a squaddie or country mate. There are just some things that get to him just like they do a lot of others. Hes trying to understand things that are not able to be understood.
Also hes no 190a8 novice:
Urchin has 69 kills and has been killed 13 times in the Fw 190A-8.
just my .2 cents
edit typos but didn't get umm all
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Aces High
'Wotan'
Warbrds 3
'wubke-'
Hptm. Wotan Wubke
Rot 3 fw-190d9 Dora
(http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/rot3jv44.jpg) (http://personal.jax.bellsouth.net/jax/t/y/tyr88/)
Im Auftrage der Reichsbahn
(By order of the State Railway)
[ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
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Problem is Wotan HTC have made it very clear that buff guns are not UBER'd... many times.
The "buffs are uber" argument is frustrating, because they are not. Even Urchins on k/d represents that!
Yet he takes one example, where the facts are very murky, and cries wolf.
IMHO this happens way too often on AH. People need to sit down, check their film, do the numbers, then if there is a clear issue raise their hand.
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"Breaking away and get hit" might be lag Wotan?