Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kweassa on February 24, 2002, 06:31:01 AM
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This is something I suggested before, but I'll bring it up again..
A 6 view system with limitations to head movements in case of 5,6,7 O'clock views and two programmable 6 views.
1. Current range of 6-View in AH
Something that combines a panoramic view of the 6 and a part of high 6 as if the pilot is sitting in the cockpit backwards.
(http://album.freechal.com/Comservice/activity/Album/getImage.asp?url=AHgallery&grpid=1144674&file=35%5Fcurrent6%2Ejpg&objseq=1)
2. Current range of high 6-View in AH
Something like if the pilot is sitting backwards in the cockpit, squatting on the rudders looking up..
(http://album.freechal.com/Comservice/activity/Album/getImage.asp?url=AHgallery&grpid=1144674&file=35%5Fcurrent6high%2Ejpg&objseq=1)
3. Suggested new 6-Views
Two 6 Views will be programmable. One 6 view would come out only if the Hat key passes 3-4-5-6 O'clock, Other 6 view would come out when the hat key is swiveled other way around 9-8-7-6 O'clock, much simular but a bit more lenient than IL-2. Of course, going directly from "peer over right shoulder" to "peer over left shoulder" is impossible.
"Peer over left Shoulder 6 view"
(http://album.freechal.com/Comservice/activity/Album/getImage.asp?url=AHgallery&grpid=1144674&file=35%5Fleft+peer%2Ejpg&objseq=1)
"Peer over right shoulder 6 view"
(http://album.freechal.com/Comservice/activity/Album/getImage.asp?url=AHgallery&grpid=1144674&file=36%5Fright+peer%2Ejpg&objseq=1)
4. New high 6 view
Suggested new high 6 view
(http://album.freechal.com/Comservice/activity/Album/getImage.asp?url=AHgallery&grpid=1144674&file=36%5F6high%2Ejpg&objseq=1)
Notice that each view is more ristricted, since it would be meaningless to have two 6 views if you can just move your head back forth up down sideways just as now. In case of the 6 views, maximum of head movement is about as much as 'peer over right shoulder' picture shows.(Peer over left shoulder pic has moved head to right a lil' bit too much) High 6 view head movement is also limited.
Minimum programming, maximum results, and compromise enough for those who like the leniency in AH 6 views. How about it?
ps) Strange, the IMGs are showing as if it were links.. I didn't have any trouble posting images before.. maybe something wrong with my file server??
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Can't access the images at all, not connecting.
So without having looked at the images, I am up for it as long as the movements aren't as freaking slow as in IL2, in IL2 it feels like he's on a coffee brake while moving the head. Try it your self sitting in a chair, move head from 7 to 4 oc view, takes less then a second.
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I remember my disappointment with the dead aft six view when I tried AH for the first time.
Oh well.......(shrugs)
Other than that, the view system in AH is simply perfect.
Y
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What is the problem with the 6 view?
When I turn my head I can easily see straight backwards, and with a much wider field of view than can be depicted on a computer screen.
(maybe if I could see the images I would understand better)
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I got a better idea. Keep the current view system, using the default "turn head" (not snap-view) view.
BUT
Make the "turning" to the view be SLOWER the more G's the plane pulls.
That way someone pulling 9g's wont be able to snap his head around in less than a second.
At around 3G's you should lose at least 1/3rd of the turn-your-head speed.. at 7G's to blackout you shouldnt be able to turn your head around at all.
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my dead 6 view is set to: full sideways and full up (finer tune is used to avoid canopy bar) this way when I hit the 6 view key I get the same view as a man stretching, looking over his shoulder. I do this for better view of that dead 6 spot but I like the effect also.
see no problem there.
Bozon
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I like the WWII OL style 6 view. Think of looking straight back without turning your shoulders with a slight head tilt.
Look over your right shoulder 90 degrees, then tilt/roll your head slightly clockwise and look up/right. (sorry, bad description) I'll look for a 6 view from ww2ol screen shot.
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What Tac said, that is how thinks work in RL. In RL with a single 5g turn you will have problems even to move vertically your arms or legs.
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I would like to see IL2 style "6 a clock" view with G-effect.
Im not RL pilot but I think fighter pilots keep their seatbelts tight at least during hard maneuvering combat.
How about two sets of views?
Views with loose and tight seatbelts.
During your cruising to the battle area you can keep belts loose (view mode 1.) for the better overall viewing.
Before engage you tightening your belts (view mode 2.) for your own safety. You cant see that well but... Hard maneuvering during combat with loose belts cause you smash your head all over and result is fadeout like wounded pilot but you still could recover totaly. If pilot continue this head banger, the result is wounded pilot (Lobotomy?) and finaly dead pilot...
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Oct, do the rear view mirrors work on the WWIIOnline aircraft?
Westy
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How many of you guys have actually flown a plane, let alone did an aerobatic routine? I did, and I highly recommend it because you guys have ALOT of misconceptions. http://www.warbirdadventures.com
Mandoble wrote: In RL with a single 5g turn you will have problems even to move vertically your arms or legs.
Not true at all. We pulled several 5 G manuevers, as a part of a overall 30 min flight of continuous aerobatics, and while it does make moving slightly slower (and I mean slightly) its not like your in a slow motion dream sequence.
Xjazz wrote: Im not RL pilot but I think fighter pilots keep their seatbelts tight at least during hard maneuvering combat.
Before engage you tightening your belts (view mode 2.) for your own safety. You cant see that well but... Hard maneuvering during combat with loose belts cause you smash your head all over and result is fadeout like wounded pilot but you still could recover totaly. If pilot continue this head banger, the result is wounded pilot (Lobotomy?) and finaly dead pilot
Again, not true at all. When I strapped into the cockpit, the instructor pilot told me to not tighten down my straps because there was no need and I would just be uncomfortable. So I left them so loose I was starting to get nervous, and then he checked them and told me to loosen them further. It turns out he was right. As long as you pull positive G's, the forces themselves keep you in the seat, and if you would pull negative G's, at most you would only move a couple of inches in the straps and basically float. The only time I "smashed my head" on the canopy was because I was looking at the scenery going "wowowowowow", and we pulled a hard rolling manuver, I popped my head on the side of the canopy (fyi I wasn't even dazed let alone incapacitated, knocked out, or labotomized). Even in the hard rolling manuevers, if you know its coming (which I did when I was flying the plane) it is quite easy to keep your head straight and free from concussive effects.
Since these types of debates started, I've also asked every WWII vet pilot I have met the same question, about how tight they wore their belts. Their descriptions match what I've described too you. Basically the only time you want your belts tight, is during a landing or especially a crash landing situation.
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"Basically the only time you want your belts tight, is during a landing or especially a crash landing situation."
Or if you were flying at a Country Fair doing a loopety-loop in an open cockpit aeroplane :)
What Vermillion said is dead on. Since "playing" these online WWII aircombat sims/games I've asked any pilot I've been able to about gunnery, strapping in etc etc. I've been straped into a few musuem displays by the vets themselves to get "the feel." Essentially, there is as much flexibility of body in an airplane as there is in an automobile.
The often spouted simmer/gamers "test" to "sit in a high back chair with your back straight and rigid while turning your neck..." is pure baloney.
Westy
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yes verm, but tell me if you are able to look straight behind your seat while pulling 8g barrel rolls?
All im saying is the more g's the slower you get to turn your head around. Im not saying it will be a slow-motion head turn at 7g's, but definetely not as quickly as we have it now.
My personal experience with G's, while NOT being in a plane, was in that spinning-centripetal G force ride in a carnival fair.
They said they were pulling 6G's and we were standing up against mats that were placed on the walls. That thing started and we could barely move a hand, trying to look to the side to see my friend's face, heeelllll I couldnt lift my cheek off the damn wall for the whole ride.
I AM A WUSS. so what? ;)
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How close to the center of the spin were ya Tac?
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S! Vermillion!
Thanks for your feedback! Now I know better.
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Im not talking about when spinning Apache, im talking when you pull a tight turn.
I think I was about 1.5 meters away from the center of the machine.
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Mandoble, You are pretty close to right on. I am a RLP but only experienced in a Piper Cherokee. However I did have the oporttunity many years ago (too many to even think about) to go along on a test hop on a side by side two seater jet (I think it was the USMC F3 something or other).
Anyway this Marine Captain took me up and after an introductory loop and slow roll he began to do his job. I was a radio tech at the time and I remember my right hand down and to the right on the selector buttons and my head down and to the right looking at same.
Suddenly I found that I could not move my right hand. My first thought was that something is terribly wrong here so I tried to look up to see what the hell this fool is doing. Unfortunatly I could not move my head any further than my hand which was zilch. How this guy was controlling the airplane is beyond me to this day. When he finished whatever he was doing I said "Take me home Captain or I am going to barf all over your shiny cockpit. He did.
After making a short story long my point is yes, hi g's can immobilize a human body.
Just a newbies 2 cents worth. Suda
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Anyone intersted in my view?
I only have about 20 hours of fighting real planes.
Including real p51's.
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HiTech I am interested.
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Tac wrote:
yes verm, but tell me if you are able to look straight behind your seat while pulling 8g barrel rolls
Well, to be honest as I can be, I have no clue about 8G's, since the max we pulled was 5G's. But yes, I could at 5G's. You lean your shoulders slightly forward and twist to the side your looking, turn your head, and with peripheral vision you can basically see the same as what our "dead six" view shows.
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Hi Tech. Tell me more. how much do you know?
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Originally posted by hitech
Anyone intersted in my view?
I only have about 20 hours of fighting real planes.
Including real p51's.
Yes - very interested.
After all, you are the guy who decides what we have in the end, eh? :)
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From left to right to back to up .. at 5G+? Dude, your wife must love you :)
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Vermillion write:
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Well, to be honest as I can be, I have no clue about 8G's, since the max we pulled was 5G's. But yes, I could at 5G's. You lean your shoulders slightly forward and twist to the side your looking, turn your head, and with peripheral vision you can basically see the same as what our "dead six" view shows.
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Concerning above: could you SURELY tell after fast looking is it friendly or foe in you c6? Type of plane? Flight path? Does he closing? etc
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While i like the AH view system, its probably the very best IMO.. I don't have eyes in the back of my head, nor am i related to Linda Blair...
I would be satisfied with mildly overlapping 5 and 7 views
Westy.. about them rear-view mirrors... did any pilots actually use the damn things? The only biography I have of a spit pilot was that he removed the useless piece of crap. The vibrations of the airframe basically made the mirror useless I believe is what he wrote.
I'd imagine the majority of combat pilots who relied on those mirrors didn't survive the war...
SKurj
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Originally posted by Xjazz
Vermillion write:
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Well, to be honest as I can be, I have no clue about 8G's, since the max we pulled was 5G's. But yes, I could at 5G's. You lean your shoulders slightly forward and twist to the side your looking, turn your head, and with peripheral vision you can basically see the same as what our "dead six" view shows.
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Concerning above: could you SURELY tell after fast looking is it friendly or foe in you c6? Type of plane? Flight path? Does he closing? etc
Jeez, would you people give it up?
(1) It's a frickin' GAME! It's an exceptionally fun game, chock-full of verisimilitude, but still a game.
(2) Two people have posted from their own DIRECT EXPERIENCE why you are wrong, and you still post conjecture as to why they're probably hallucinating and you're right after all.
(3) I honestly suspect some of you would have HTC add a "Potato Peeling Simulator" to represent those punitive KP assignments you've read about in that historical reference "Beetle Bailey."
If I sewed this idea's mouth shut full of rock salt, would it stay dead?
P.S. Yes, I have been drinking. Why do you ask?
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pbirmingham:
My question was about real life NOT about Aces high sim.
Keep drinking...
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Originally posted by Xjazz
pbirmingham:
My question was about real life NOT about Aces high sim.
Keep drinking...
Good advice -- I think I will.
In fact, I didn't wait for your advice -- I drank some more, and I still think that your question, though it may be about real life, will be eventually put through some rhetorical contortion to support the idea that something is HORRIBLY WRONG with the current view system and IT MUST BE CHANGED, preferably so it's easier to sneak up on somebody.
Yeah, it might be more like the real war, but everybody I've ever heard from says that war sucks, so there!
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Skurj I think the mirrors were used more than they were not. For all the stories about pilots removing them I've read more about pilots adding them (especially the Spitfire models) to thier 51's or 47's in 43 and 44.
As for relying on it. OF course any pilot would be dead. The key to living was keep your head on a swivel - a universal anecdote from piltos of all sides about living or dying in WWII aircombat - but the rear view allowed one to get a rough check of the "6" with just a glance.
While I am against being able to go from the "7" view directly to the "five" via way of the "6" (Linda Blair view) I am also NOT for removing any dead-6 view while we lack mirrors.
Westy
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In every plane i've faught in ive been able to see the end of the right horz stab while turning around to the left.
One of the first thing I do in a plane that im going to be fighting in is find a hand hold for my left hand. To aid in turning my body.
Turn around and make sure that my sholder straps are not preventing any movement. and that I can see sky on the far side of the veritcal stab.
Turning around under g load does not pose any problems what so ever. But your mussles do work much harder
Ive found it much harder to look at some one straight above me. (realative to the plane) than any other position, this is do to the fact that when under g's you can not tilt your head, it has to stay right on top of your shoulders. Was in a looping fight once with the bogie right out my head, I had my head leaning slighty back and doing about 2 g's on the down side, when about 30 nose below the horizon i snatched the stick to around 6 g's. My head went back so my face was looking straght up. It was totaly unmovable until I came over the top, and I could relax the g's and pull my head back up with my left hand, once you have done this you will NEVER make that mistake again. The next day it felt like I had been lifting a bar bell with my teath . My neck mussles were very sore.
In all my fights ,there have only been 2 times ive had to think about or lost sight of the other plane.
Once on a head on merge we were about a mile and a half apart, and both unloading to get speed for the initial cross, as I unloaded the plane crossed over a conopy rail, I move my head to look above the rail, and it took a good 5 secs to reaquire him, was toejamting bricks until i did.
Btw this was a very hazy day with a scud layer.
The other was right after a merge where we past left to left and he had gotten a fair left hand lead turn on me. I did a right hand displacment roll causing him to cross under my tail briefly and forcing me to switch from a left hand view to a right hand view of him. He came right out where I expected him so I continued the roll,it put me right behind him, and the fight was over.
Tracking airplanes in a real fight is so much easier than any pc sim can portray with a view system, that puting hindernces in like, no six view, would be by far less realistic when you view things from a over all perception of view VS an each individual view.
Im a novice when it comes to flying under G's. When I observe the real fighter pilots pull g's and move around under hi g's it's like the g's are hardly there for them.
Most ive ever pulled was 7.5 for a brief time.
When fighting in an L39 we did some sustained tail chacing at around 5.5 to 6.5 for at least a min. This is the only time I had to realy work at fighting g's. Would relax for a sec and would need to strain and grunt back out of the tunnel / grey out.
btw grey out is realy cool if you havn't experenced it, you see perfectly fine but the hole world goes black and white.
It realy does amuse me when people bring up the sugestion of sholder straps being tight, it's not a way you would ever fight, and was one of the first things I was taught when getting in a plane to go fight with.
HiTech
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A couple of questions:
Don't ejection seats have 'reel tensioners' to tighten the harness automatically before an ejection? Or do high performance fighter pilots (F-15,16, and 18 drivers) fly with the straps tight?
HiTech. Just out of curiosity, how would you compare the idea of 'Padlock' in game to how you look around during a dogfight? Not trying to open a separate can of worms here, but just curious on how you would compare the two.
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But HT...
your neck is 1.4 times the human norm in length...
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Sundog: I have nothing against padlock. As far as realistic or not its realy a moot point, it's just an automatic function for somthing you do automaticly already. You realy don't have to think how to turn your head.
On a presonal note I think it can be a hinderance when fighting more than one person.
The problems come in when trying to implent the non lock and reaquire parts, this can be very unrealistic, for instance how do you implement a padalock system where a plane going under your nose for a bit can make you loose him? Im always open to suggestions on this. What im dead set agains is a padlock system finding a bogie for you when you can't see it, or require him when he gets hidden then comes back into view, because these can be dificault to do in real life.
As far as cable reals, they are common today, but were not in WWII.
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Thanks for the long explanation HT. That was really interesting.
Hooligan
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Thanks HT. I agree that I find it easier to use the hat views when fighting because it allows me to maintain SA. I was just wondering on many of the arguments (Which you addressed) regarding it's realism. I agree completely that it shouldn't be a pseudo RADAR tracking system. I have seen some implemented REALLY well and others rather poorly. Thanks.
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Originally posted by hitech
Im always open to suggestions on this
Opening a thread for suggestions on that.
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HT.. I really enjoyed your explanation. for a number of reasons.
Oh.. mirrors were used a lot and American planes didn't "vibrate" and pilots were likely to smash their face on the dash in a bad landing because they forgot to tighten up their straps. Anyone who wants a more resricted/harder to achieve six view is a gutless pansy or/and a LW guy.
lazs
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I believe ripsnore has outdone himself on the "content/sig" ratio.
lazs