Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Midnight on February 25, 2002, 11:37:40 AM
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How About a combonation of the two?
I believe every time you hit a target (each bullet) you produce X amount of damage to the enemy where you hit him.
How about if you hit a freindly target, the system calculates the hits and if the total was enough to shoot the friendly plane down, you get a PNG warning. Then, if you do it again, you get a PNG status for 24 hours and are unable to load weapons during that period.
This could solve all the Kill Shooter whining and would prevent someone from getting a PNG status for a single stray bullet that happened to ping a friendly in the heat of battle. It would also prevent all those "Over the Shoulder" shooters from getting too crazy, as they would have to look out for PNG.
This should be far better than getting your ammo load instantly set to zero, or having your plane freeze in space for X seconds. The battle could still be finished, but when you tried to re-arm or start a new flight, you wold get "Sorry you are PNG for XX:XX minutes"
Also, all those PNG guys could fly goons if they still needed the AH fix.
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PNG? wha dus da stant for?
Broesy
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So...if you "shoot down" a friendly, you both get to continue attacking the bad guy? Shouldn't something happen to drop at least one of you out of the conga line?
Also, with Killshooter you may die, but you get to continue playing, albeit a bit wiser, instead of waiting 24 hours.
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killshooter works just leave it.
or else suffer the endless spray n pray dweebs shootin behind us to get a kill.
Let the dweebs die till the learn to refrain from this behavior..
And if you get killed by ks just like collisions it may piss ya off but you're in control. You pull the trigger and hit a friendly thats your fault.
If someone cuts you off well a bit better sa you will know when to hold on your fire.
KS mostly effects 50 cal folks. Leave how it is.........
png for what 24? hours 12? till ya up a new plane? nah just let the ks'r die
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Originally posted by Broes
PNG? wha dus da stant for?
Persona Non Grata - yeah, it's Latin I believe... it is the term we used in Air Warrior when somebody killed an Ally twice within 24 hours. With anti-fragging on most of the time, this usually happened more in scenarios and special events where fragging was possible. In the equivalents of the Main Arena, the only way someone could become PNG was by dropping bombs on a friendly. Anyone who was PNG was deprived of ammo - including bombs - for the duration of their PNG status; even gunning a bomber was not possible.
I once became PNG by accidentally dropping bombs on another bomber parked on the ground - with a gunner on board, effectively killing two people in one go! :o We used to be able to get around it by changing countries or going to another arena, but in my case I just stayed and flew Gooneys until I got my ammo back.... :)
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My brother (0osik) killshooters himself intentionally on me about once a night that we're both on. And I occasionally do it to him as well. It's a great way to end a sortie quickly.
You guys are takin this aspect way too seriously.
eskimo
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All things considered I like killshooter just fine.
Hooligan
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I have no problem with the concept of killshooter either.
My bigest gripe with KS is that it seems to do 10X damage to me when compared to the same shot hitting an enemy plane.
Example:
1/2 second burst into the tail section of enemy P-51 results in a missing elevator or other minor damage to enemy.
1/2 second burst where a few bullets happen to hit a friendly, my entire tail section is blown off.
If killshooter didn't have the damage multiplier, I think there would be a lot less whining. I mean, how many times have you taken damage from killshooter that wasn't critical? It seems like it's either all or nothing. Like in a P-51D, radiator is hit all the time, but I have never had that happen with KS, just blown off tails.
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Originally posted by Midnight
If killshooter didn't have the damage multiplier, I think there would be a lot less whining. I mean, how many times have you taken damage from killshooter that wasn't critical? It seems like it's either all or nothing. Like in a P-51D, radiator is hit all the time, but I have never had that happen with KS, just blown off tails.
This needs a response from Hitech or Pyro. Is there a damage multiplier for killshooter? I havent noticed one myself but if what Midnight says is true, this has got to go!
-Ding
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Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you... but the way I read it is this. If some new guy starts firing at ya, then he dies... so no sweat off your back, right? The problem with killshooter then is when people cut you off and fly into your line of fire. So now instead of you getting killed for this, you'd rather be basically ejected from playing for 24 hours? Is that what you're saying?
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I always was kinda fond of PNG if ya know what I mean:D
(http://www.13thtas.com/rudesig.jpg)
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The major gripe with killshooter is that people intentionally and repeatedly fly in FRONT of you when chasing a con to steal your kill, knowing fully well they dont get penalized.
OTH, the guy that has been working on the con that bounced him by bleeding the con's E off, and saddling on his 6, ready to get a deserved kill, and all the sudden WHAM! in comes the other moron in green icon from a 10k dive straight between the 2 of you and flies into your tracers.. and you die.
I think it would be best IF:
-Killshooter only "killshoots" if hit with more than 40 bullets (any caliber) in 1 second. Anything lower does no damage to the offending plane. If more than 40, the offender should get an instant BAD pilot wound. Make the sucker suffer on his way to the dirt.
This would effectively remove the penalty for hitting the moron that flew in between you and your target.
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I like Killshooter just the way it is. OK, one little modification. Turn it off for friendly chutes!
SOB
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Originally posted by Midnight
My bigest gripe with KS is that it seems to do 10X damage to me when compared to the same shot hitting an enemy plane.
Example:
1/2 second burst into the tail section of enemy P-51 results in a missing elevator or other minor damage to enemy.
1/2 second burst where a few bullets happen to hit a friendly, my entire tail section is blown off.
I've noticed the same thing, but I thought it was just me.
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Originally posted by Nash
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding you... but the way I read it is this. If some new guy starts firing at ya, then he dies... so no sweat off your back, right? The problem with killshooter then is when people cut you off and fly into your line of fire. So now instead of you getting killed for this, you'd rather be basically ejected from playing for 24 hours? Is that what you're saying?
No Nash.
I am saying that IF you hit the friendly enough that it would cause critical damge (I.E. you blasted the hell out of him) you would get a PNG **WARNING** message. Then, if you did it again in 24 hours, you would get PNG status that would last for 24 hours.
The point being that for most people, it is an errant mistake to have shot a freindly and they probably won't do it again in the same day. It's the players that just keep pulling the trigger no matter what is in front of them that need to change their style.
And also, in this setup, neither friendly would actually take damage, it would just be the offending guy that would become PNG, but only if he shot freindlies enough to kill them. See?
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Could it be that you are 10X closer to the friendly than the enemy, when you hit him?
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Originally posted by Tac
-Killshooter only "killshoots" if hit with more than 40 bullets (any caliber) in 1 second. Anything lower does no damage to the offending plane. If more than 40, the offender should get an instant BAD pilot wound. Make the sucker suffer on his way to the dirt.
Tac, this type wouldn't be as effective as what I proposed of the 'critical damage'.
Some larger guns (30mm) can kill with just three or four rounds. The cannon dweebs could fire all they wanted and not have to worry about hitting a friendly with 40 rounds.
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The problem comes in how to apply the damage when you are shooting at different plane type , i.e. you could be shooting eng 4 on a plane with 1 eng.
To over come this all damage from kill shooter is applied to the center fuse.
It never ceases to amaze me how people love to blame the kill shooter on the other guy diving in.
If the plane is above you and he is diving in, he can't even see you.
It's realy simple.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire. No if's, no ands, no buts.
For those complaning about some one flying infront of them.
Read this again.
It is the shooter responsibliyt to make sure he is clear to fire.
One more time.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
And in case you are not clear on my views on the subject.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
Think of it as an instant court marshal and a sentance of a firing squad.
HiTech
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"Tac, this type wouldn't be as effective as what I proposed of the 'critical damage'.
Some larger guns (30mm) can kill with just three or four rounds. The cannon dweebs could fire all they wanted and not have to worry about hitting a friendly with 40 rounds."
Hmm, true. Perhaps make it a 40 rnd rule for mg's, 10 rnd for cannon?
"It is the shooter responsibliyt to make sure he is clear to fire. "
Unfortunataly responsibity ends when the tracers are flying. People fly into the bullet stream.
"It never ceases to amaze me how people love to blame the kill shooter on the other guy diving in.
If the plane is above you and he is diving in, he can't even see you"
Thats a bit off i'd say. Sure, they may dive into a con and not see you behind him, but they sure as heck can see the tracers you're firing his way. Point is, some people just dont give a damn and fly in there regardless. Accidents happen as well, toejam happens. But penalizing the person that didnt cause the accident by having 1 or 2 killshooter pings whacking him off the sky doesnt sound right. All I'd like to see is a few more leniency towards hits received before causing damage, give the victims a chance to stop firing before killshooting themselves (target fixation, press trigger, BIG green icon plane jumps in front split second surprise, trigger still pressed, *plinkplink* *BOOM* you go).
BTW, I see HTC staff posting a lot. Do I smell something coming up? :)
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i say we keep killshooter and not do the PNG thing. i have been tempted more than once to kill the feker that cut me off and stole one of my kills. with the PNG thing i could get my revenge. as good as it would make me feel to do that....its wrong.
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Originally posted by pimpjoe
i say we keep killshooter and not do the PNG thing. i have been tempted more than once to kill the feker that cut me off and stole one of my kills. with the PNG thing i could get my revenge. as good as it would make me feel to do that....its wrong.
Pimpjoe... with the way I am proposing, NEITHER friendly plane would actually take damage, the system would just determine you hit the other friendly enough to kill him, and then give you the message.
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Unfortunataly responsibity ends when the tracers are flying. People fly into the bullet stream.
So you wan't the kill so bad,want points so bad, that you are willing to risk killingl a friendly.
Read again.
It is the shooters responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
If some one is diving in you are NOT clear to fire.
Thats a bit off i'd say. Sure, they may dive into a con and not see you behind him, but they sure as heck can see the tracers you're firing his way.
Again .
It is the shooters responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
Point is, some people just dont give a damn and fly in there regardless.
Again.
It is the shooters responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
Accidents happen as well, toejam happens. But penalizing the person that didnt cause the accident by having 1 or 2 killshooter pings whacking him off the sky doesnt sound right.
This would be like blaming a guy for hiting your car after you just ran a red light, because "well he saw me".
Again.
You want the kill so bad,want points so bad, that you are willing to risk killing a friendly.
It is the shooters responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
All I'd like to see is a few more leniency towards hits received before causing damage, give the victims a chance to stop firing before killshooting themselves (target fixation, press trigger, BIG green icon plane jumps in front split second surprise, trigger still pressed, *plinkplink* *BOOM* you go).
Again.
You want the kill so bad,want points so bad, that you are willing to risk killing a friendly.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
Tac everything you are aguing is you wanting the kill no different then the guy diving in wants the kill.
Only thing is the other guy is in a better position for the kill than you are. What you are acusing other people of, you are more guilty of yourself.
The rule is simple.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
It never ceases to amaze me how people love to blame the kill shooter on the other guy diving in.
If the plane is above you and he is diving in, he can't even see you.
It's realy simple.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire. No if's, no ands, no buts.
HiTech
HT, I hate to be argumentative, but that sounds like BS to me.
Here is a perfect example of how others do the "Fly in front thing" to steel / get the kill.
I was in P-51 chasing a P47. we were on the deck and were going about 200 MPH. We were in a straight line flight, he was running for AA cover at the nearby depot.
Anyway, I check six and see a freindly N1K (Dweeb) coming in. I finally get within firing range of the P-47 (about 500 yards) and just as I open fire, the DWEEB KILL STEELER!!! flys RIGHT THROUGH my P-51 and causes me to be blown apart.
I think is is ridiculus to tell me that it is my fault the N1K dweeb flew through my plane while I had the trigger pulled. He saw me there and chose to fly through and get the kill without a care in the world.
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Anyway, I check six and see a freindly N1K (Dweeb) coming in. I finally get within firing range of the P-47 (about 500 yards) and just as I open fire, the DWEEB KILL STEELER!!! flys RIGHT THROUGH my P-51 and causes me to be blown apart.
Tell me again how you were not trying to steel HIS kill of the DWEEB laser 50cal p47? And how the DWEEB RunStang should have had the kill instead of the DWEEB N1k?
And tell me again how that n1k didn't hold his fire until he was clear of you?
There is Only 1 form of kill steeling that I know of and that is shooting a plane after he is all ready spiraling to the ground.
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not when the other plane purposely flies through your plane from behind u and kill shoots u to get to the enemy, ive had that happen several times.
Whels
Originally posted by hitech
The problem comes in how to apply the damage when you are shooting at different plane type , i.e. you could be shooting eng 4 on a plane with 1 eng.
To over come this all damage from kill shooter is applied to the center fuse.
It never ceases to amaze me how people love to blame the kill shooter on the other guy diving in.
If the plane is above you and he is diving in, he can't even see you.
It's realy simple.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire. No if's, no ands, no buts.
For those complaning about some one flying infront of them.
Read this again.
It is the shooter responsibliyt to make sure he is clear to fire.
One more time.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
And in case you are not clear on my views on the subject.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
Think of it as an instant court marshal and a sentance of a firing squad.
HiTech
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I don't mind the normal cannon/MG killshooter but what does annoy me is killshooter from bomb-blast. Numerous times I've dropped bombs on hangars and some guy then decides it will be fun to fly through the hangar just as my bombs connect! Booom!
At the time of release of bombs it was perfectly clear but by the time the bomb had reached it's target it doesn't take much for a friendly to stray into the path of the bomb blast... before you say "It is the shooters responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire"! :)
Anyway, that's my 2 pence worth....
Regards
Nexx
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Originally posted by hitech
Anyway, I check six and see a freindly N1K (Dweeb) coming in. I finally get within firing range of the P-47 (about 500 yards) and just as I open fire, the DWEEB KILL STEELER!!! flys RIGHT THROUGH my P-51 and causes me to be blown apart.
Tell me again how you were not trying to steel HIS kill of the DWEEB laser 50cal p47? And how the DWEEB RunStang should have had the kill instead of the DWEEB N1k?
And tell me again how that n1k didn't hold his fire until he was clear of you?
There is Only 1 form of kill steeling that I know of and that is shooting a plane after he is all ready spiraling to the ground.
problem is KS only punishes 1 side, when both sides are at fualt.
the shooter is at fualt cause he fired when friendlies were too close to bullet paths. the other is at fualt for flying his plane
into a friendly fire stream. both are at fault. its a shame
only 1 gets the axe.
whels
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Lets see, we have had killshooter since the game came out in open beta a little more than 2 years ago. Why do I see more posts in the last 6 months than I did the first 2 years?
I guess things must be going good if people finally decide to squeak about something that works great the way it does. HT is right, learn some fargin discipline with you finger on the trigger.
The funny thing is, there is no real penalty for getting killshootered. Yes, you die and you have to replane. Oh well. If you decide to PNG people for this, now you have a penalty. Imagine you killshooter someone and then are forced to leave the arena or fly planes without ammo or whatever other hairbrained ideas you come up with. Do you think you are getting your $$$ worth out of the game if because of a mistake you made you can no longer really fly and fight in the arena for a specified period of time?
This idea is about as good as filling zepplins with hydrogen and putting smoking sections in the cabin.
Guys, killshooter is perfectly fine the way it is. If you don't like someone dropping in to kill your intended victim, then head to someother area. Despite how fun and addicting it is, it is only a GAME.
:rolleyes:
-math (who is trying to figure out how the hell some people die to killshooter so mucht hat they gotta squeak about it and try and justify by 2 or 3 examples out of thousands how it is bad and unfair)
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"Tac everything you are aguing is you wanting the kill no different then the guy diving in wants the kill.
Only thing is the other guy is in a better position for the kill than you are. What you are acusing other people of, you are more guilty of yourself"
Indeed, you are right.
From now on I will strive to find people that are behind a con, d300 or less away from him and shooting away.. and I will dive in front of them on purpose, with no care in the world if they get killshot, just because ill be "in a better position for the kill" than he is. No matter if it means flying into friendly, undamaging (to me) lead. I will also strive to fly through other people's planes in the same situation if I have no alt to dive with, having no care in the world that the person im flying through is firing like crazy at a jinking con.. im just getting into a better position than he is... about 2 yds closer than him for example. Its not MY fault if the guy is shooting while I fly through him either. I love the La7.
:rolleyes:
*throws salt over shoulder*
Making the first 5 to 10 pings from killshooter do no damage would help a lot in preventing accidental killshooter from happening. After all, killshooter is in place to stop friendlies from shooting down other friendlies on purpose . If somoene is dumb enough to keep spraying at a con d600 away when there's 2 other friendlies in 100yds closer than he is.. well, he does deserve to get killshot.
But heck, I can only suggest, its your game. Cheers!
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Originally posted by whels
problem is KS only punishes 1 side, when both sides are at fualt.
the shooter is at fualt cause he fired when friendlies were too close to bullet paths. the other is at fualt for flying his plane
into a friendly fire stream. both are at fault. its a shame
only 1 gets the axe.
whels
Whels, the answer is in HT's post. He says that it is the SHOOTER'S responsibility to know when to shoot and when not to. Since he is the creator of the game, I would think his word is the law (whether you like it or not).
-math
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Hitech,
The difference between Tac & the guy diving is that Tac has been working on that kill, the other one commin' in didn't. I hate it when it happens too.
Other than that KS is fine by me :)
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HT you really need to take a seroius break and fly for a few days. I've had the exact situation that Midnight described happen to me a few times, and it seemed that I went boom from KS the second the other guy's prop touched the trailed edge of my 'vators. I still got the kill cause the pony I shot the wing off of hit the ground before I did.
Tac everything you are aguing is you wanting the kill no different then the guy diving in wants the kill.
Only thing is the other guy is in a better position for the kill than you are. What you are acusing other people of, you are more guilty of yourself.
Ok, Dale, here's the situation you're in (one I've been in plenty of times). You're flyin a 51D and start dancing with a 47D-30. Neutral at the start. After several minutes you've got the advantage and a rolling scissors starts as the jug tries to push you out front. A couple of evolutions, you're 300yds back, goin over the top and his inside wing dips from pullin too hard. 3-4 seconds and he's yours. At the very instant you lay down the trigger a "friendly" comes swooping in, totally misses the stalled jug, flies between you and the jug and you go BOOM. Said "friendly" then kills YOUR jug 10seconds later.
Who wanted the kill so badly that they'd kill a friendly to get it?
As you are so fond of pointing out you can't see the floor of your kite to see the "friendly" diving in and you don't know he's there til he's in your bullet stream. However he knew damn good and well that you were there, and if he had half a brain he knew you were closing on firing position and about to open up some hot death on the bandit.
Did the "friendly" KS you on purpose? You tell me as he's laughing at you when you asking why he jumped in.
On another note the 1-2 second warning is a GREAT idea. Give it a 2second amnesty to get off the trigger and if you ping a friendly again in the next 5 or 10minutes you go boom cause ya used up your warning.
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Almost correct Saw. I really dont CARE if he steals the kill, it may as well be an accident and he didnt see me. But what ticks me off is having his plane fly in front of mine and it does take one about a split second to react, and in that time you put about 3 or 4 rnds of ammo PER GUN on his plane and you killshoot yourself. None may be at fault, but one side does get punished severely. Giving some "free hits per second" before the killshooter sets in would allow me, and anyone else to stop squeezing the trigger, have the green plane in front take a few hits (that were already flying when he flew in front) and then allow ME to blast the guy on priv channel *mwahaha*.
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Originally posted by hitech
The rule is simple.
It is the shooter responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
HiTech
There are no absolutes..... Single-minded greed has its perils. Ignoring tracers is less than brilliant. This is why I leave tracers selected, so that teammates are alerted. I was annoyed when I was killfightered by a goomba who climbed right through my tracer stream, almost flying through my airplane. I could not see him below the nose of my fighter until it was too late. On the plus side, I was pleased that he had reaped his own folly. I feel no sense of responsibility towards suicidal morons......
My regards,
Widewing
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you are responsible for what happens when you pull the trigger.
SA aint just about knowing where the nme is but knowing where your friends are. If two guys are chasing a con and the faster moves ahead of a slower guy who at the same time fires its the slower guys fault. The faster guy has the advantage.
Also consider fe here the faster guy may see himself 100 yrds ahead of you. Your fe shows him "flying through you". You pull the trigger your fe sees the hits you get the damage. Its your fault. Check 6 see where everyone at then shoot. Or deal with it when ks claims ya......
Mostly 50 cal complain about ks from my experience they usually are spraying from behind a friendly (me) then when they get ks'd they beetch. I purposely fly into the bullet streams from the guy behind me. Maybe after gettin ks'd a few times they will learn.
It works no need to change it.
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I've killed myself because of killshooter.
I've watched guys kill themselves as they fire through me to get the guy I'm already on.
I've watched guys kill themselves as I fly through their kill while chasing mine which is going perpindicular to them.
I've killed myself doing the same.
Bullets fly, they hit a plane, someone's gotta die. This PNG may work for the lilly-livered people who don't think it's their fault, but if you depressed the trigger without checking around you first- it was your own fault for not keeping an eye out.
-SW
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everyone,
Good discussion going on here and something that has come up within our squad. I have seen all the behavior you guys are posting about here. My personal viewpoint on it, and to the guys in our squad is:
1) The MA is a 'team' player arena. That means anyone with green tags can kill someone with red tags. As such, you can't have your kill stolen, unless you took too long to kill it. That's the hardline and just the way it is. If you want something else, ask for a free for all arena. No one can steal your kill there.
2) Do I think it is in poor taste to dive and kill an enemy aircraft that a friendly has been dogfighting with the past two or three minutes finally gained position and receieved 'help' he/she didn't need? Yes, I do think it is in poor taste. Typically, I will try to stay above the fight and watch out for and other enemies coming to help the enemy already engaged or be prepared to dive in if the friendly should end up in a disadvantageous position. Having said as much, I can only control my behavior, not everyone else's. If I see people who routinely pick off targets of oppurtunity, that someone in my eyes earned the right to shoot down, I just do my best to avoid flying where those people are.
3) It's (KS) unfair. Depends on your perspective and your motivation for flying in AH. If you've paid your sub, then what is possible in AH is possible. I too whine (As much as I hate to admit it) about certain 'gaming' aspects of AH, but ultimately, it is only my behavior I can control. I have caused people to be shot down accidently by the KS feature (Mostly Squad m8s...oops) and I have been killed by it for the same reasons, but usually, the guy dives in front of me so fast, especially if I am zoomed in on the target with a very limited FOV, I don't see him until it's done and I'm dead. That's the breaks. Sure, I get angry, but like I said we each have our motivation for flying AH. For some, it's flying and respecting what others are doing. For some, it's I am here to play and shoot down the red ones, for others its hunting and stalking 'their' prey and don't like it when someone else steps in.
As such, regardless of what HTC places in the game to deal with these various 'questionable' situations, what you are refering to is behavior control and motivation. If you really want to fix the situation, make it so that once the landing gear is retracted, friendly collisions are on. That will truly force friendly aircraft to pay attention to what all the other friendly's are doing.:::Opens a whole new can of worms::: :D
If all else fails, use a hard deck of 10K. It has been my experience that you don't usually find any of your so called 'kill stealers' up there too often :) , unless his name is wingman :eek:
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I agree with everything HiTech mentioned, except for the bit about someone flying through you. If there's someone in a position to fly through your stream of bullets, then you should know you're taking a risk of hitting them, even if they have to dive in front of you for it to happen. On the other hand, I can't see how you could be responsible for someone flying through your aircraft...but I also can't think of how you'd solve this short of turning on friendly collisions in the air, and that'd just be a nightmare.
Killshooter works great. Live with the two times out of a hundred when someone either flies through you or you actually couldn't predict that someone was about to fly through your bullet stream. The other 98 times, you can blame yourself.
SOB
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I doudt any "flies through you" what you see and what the guy who "flew through you" sees aint the same therefore you have to accept what happens. If you check around you before you fire you would see a guy ready to "fly through you".
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Originally posted by hitech
Anyway, I check six and see a freindly N1K (Dweeb) coming in. I finally get within firing range of the P-47 (about 500 yards) and just as I open fire, the DWEEB KILL STEELER!!! flys RIGHT THROUGH my P-51 and causes me to be blown apart.
Tell me again how you were not trying to steel HIS kill of the DWEEB laser 50cal p47? And how the DWEEB RunStang should have had the kill instead of the DWEEB N1k?
And tell me again how that n1k didn't hold his fire until he was clear of you?
There is Only 1 form of kill steeling that I know of and that is shooting a plane after he is all ready spiraling to the ground.
I fought that P-47 down from 20K when there was not one other friendly in the sector. I turned and fought with him for about 3 or 4 minutes before we were at ground level and all options of going vertical were gone. I chased him through a canyon slowly gaining on him for another 45 seconds. When I finally got within guns range, and was ready to pull the trigger, I deserved to get the kill.
The N1K Kill Stealing Dweeb (He is, there is no maybe) Saw me chasing that P-47, saw me taking a shot here and there while I moved in for the kill and INTENTIONALLY flew right through my plane, From Behind so that he could get in front and shoot down the P-47 before I did.
Now I saw that N1K when he was still 5.5K away from me and the P47. I looked back every few seconds to make sure no enemy were closing in on my six to shoot me while I chased the P47. I saw the N1K getting closer.
I should not have to expect to see the ugly green nose of a N1K fly through my cockpit as I am pulling the trigger to kill my quary.
Tell me in all honesty if you think that the above scenario doesn't sound like kill steeling, or just plain unsportsmanlike conduct on the part of the N1K pilot. I am not sure of the exact count, but there were plenty of other enemy planes around that the N1K could have gone after, he chose to get the low slow P47 because it was out of E and had no where to go. That, HT, is pure garbage.
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Persona Non Grata didnt work worth a damn when I flew in Airwarrior. The AW pilots have forgotten the people that would ping you several times, enough to damage you and make you ineffective but not enough to kill. People flying would do it and people would park in GV's on the runway and do it.
Killshooter works well and is the only viable option. I have only died to Killshooter twice. Both happened in furballs where someone zipped in front of me and I pinged them by accident.
Learn to live within the system you have, this part is not going to change.
Drifter
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Originally posted by Mathman
Lets see, we have had killshooter since the game came out in open beta a little more than 2 years ago. Why do I see more posts in the last 6 months than I did the first 2 years?
Maybe because there are 300+ players in the arena now, compared to maybe 100 in the past? :rolleyes:
The concentration od planes in any given area is 3x what it used to be, Mathman... Do the Math, statistcally, the percentage of people being affected by KS will go up as the number of planes goes up.
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Suggestion : When you see a green icon in front of you lay of trigger ;).. And if your too late your too slow, and i guess you need to be dead? :D
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Originally posted by Midnight
Maybe because there are 300+ players in the arena now, compared to maybe 100 in the past? :rolleyes:
The concentration od planes in any given area is 3x what it used to be, Mathman... Do the Math, statistcally, the percentage of people being affected by KS will go up as the number of planes goes up.
I understand that, as I have died more to killshooter than prior to the influx of all the people. I am talking about the fact that people seem to be whining about this as if it were a new thing just recently implemented. Guess I should have made that clear. Before, someone would post a thread and offer an alternative (similar to the HO/ramming threads that pop up every once in awhile), we would debate it, and it would be decided, by many of the poeple that seem to think that it is a bad idea now, that it is the best solution to what could be a very big problem.
Anyways... time for my solution...
With that point you made, wouldn't a better solution instead of whining about KS and trying to find an alternative solution (that probably won't work as well as KS does in terms of keeping friendlies from killing each other) be to get bigger maps? Increase the area of the map and put more bases in, the concentration of planes per unit area will decrease. I believe that is what they call inverse variation, but then I could be wrong. :rolleyes:
Didn't someone official post that we will be getting bigger maps soon anyways? That should cure the problem if what you say is correct (which I think it is).
-math
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I think the idea of killshooter is fine. But the damage you do to your own plane when shooting a friendly should definitely be tuned down a lot. Should be the same as the damage you would do to an enemy.
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midnight... I admit to being very disapointed in you for not sending me the firearm and ammo that you promised. I admit to thinking that you were not being honest. Now I see that you needed the firearm and ammo for yourself but.... Now that you have used it to shoot yourself in the foot can you send it along?
Do you need an FFL number?
lazs
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Originally posted by CavemanJ
HT you really need to take a seroius break and fly for a few days. I've had the exact situation that Midnight described happen to me a few times, and it seemed that I went boom from KS the second the other guy's prop touched the trailed edge of my 'vators. I still got the kill cause the pony I shot the wing off of hit the ground before I did.
First, just wanted to say I've seen HT and Pyro both on line quite a bit lately in the CT, so Dale has been flying plenty.
Second, Killshooter is really simple and we all know how it works. I can't remember the last time I actually died to killshooter... I don't understand the big deal. I avoid the conga-line situations and hence it's rare. Sure, it has happened very rarely where somebody dove in unseen by me... but that's a problem with my SA as far as I'm concerned... if anybody can dive in without me seeing them, it could just as easily be an enemy. I pay attention to that, and it looks like a friendly is diving into the fight I be careful with the trigger. It's the shooter's responsibility to make sure it's clear to fire. :p Works for me.
Third, killshooter is just fine. No need for HT to spend valuable resources on reworking something that already works. There is much more cool stuff I'm sure he could be working on that we would appreciate a LOT more.
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It's part of the game that just one of the parameter we have to deal with
Sometime it's injust ... like a disco when your are on the six of that juicy Goon soon about to drop at your town ... sometime it's deserved...
But in any case it's just a factor you have to manage ...
Like kill stealing ...
Originally posted by Saintaw
Other than that KS is fine by me :)
tss tss
Leche-botte ;)
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Originally posted by hitech
It is the shooters responsiblity to make sure he is clear to fire.
It is the other guys responsability to make sure to not cross friendly bullet streams.
Our virtual world view system is too much limited to be able to aim at the enemy and, at the same time, to look for some mates diving from our six to cross in front of us. What about if the friendly is comming up from below our plane? Are we going to roll to check all directions and then fire?? If you see a friendly in a clear shooting possition, it is YOUR responsability to not interfere with his bullets path because you are behind (faster or not) and so you will have a much better view of the situation.
In some cases you have dweebs, well, not really dweebs, just people starting to learn the game that move at your six and start spraying through your plane trying to hit the enemy. Most if not all these cases are just that, newbies trying to learn even to land their planes.
The responsability si TOO difusse to decide cleary where is the blame. I'll repeat, as always, that setting to ZERO the shooting ammo clips is more than enough.
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Originally posted by Lephturn
but that's a problem with my SA as far as I'm concerned... if anybody can dive in without me seeing them, it could just as easily be an enemy.
Of course this is NOT a SA problem, you count the enemies, you count the friendlies, you know there are only friendlies in range behind you, or you know that no enemy behind you is able to catch on you so you concentrate in the following 10 seconds into killing the enemy at your 12. Blaming in the SA is extremely simplistic.
To make the things even clearer.
While you are pursuing an enemy at D800 You look at your six and you see only a higher friendly at D1.5. You can't know whether he is aproaching or not because your are not going to keep looking at that friendly for 5 secs to see any possitive/negative variation in distance, you simply will concentrate into aiming and shooting down the enemy.
But if the dot at your hi six is RED, your priorities will change a lot. Now you will be very interested into that dot's closing rate instead of just keeping centering the enemy at your 12.
In the first case, if the friendly decides to dive on your target, the responsability entirely of him. He can see you pursuing the enemy and into guns range, so, if he decides to dive, he is risking the killshoot.
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Killshooter DOESN'T work but, then again neither did PNG. So I say just leave killshooter as it is. There isn't enough SA in the arena to control a person or persons from flying in front of you intent on stealing your kill; that argument just won't wash.
What will stop people from flying in front of you is to get them to learn how to fly with a bit more etiquette. Some of this can be cured by squads doing some training among themselves. Others will always do it because thats what they do. Just remember them, write their handles down and remember them. When you get your revenge, remind them why you, your squad and countrymen didnt support them; hopefully they will change countries to Bishland or Nitwit land and poison their skies :D
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WHINEDOBLE,
Whatever dude... this is the way it is. Changing it would be a waste of resources... it's just not that big a deal to me, and I think HT has far better things to spend his time on. KS works well enough for me.
Lephturn