Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: aknimitz on February 25, 2002, 11:43:04 AM
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I've been reading a couple of different threads, and thought I would start a new one offering some of my experiences. AH is my first WWII Sim. When I started here, I was using a MS Twisty Stick. Hell I thought it was great, and hell it probably was! Then I went to the Saitek Cybrog, a much improved version of the MS Twistys IMHO. Finally, a friend of mine had the Saitek X35/36 setup (but no pedals). I had been wanting to try it, so he let me borrow it.
So, here I am with a HOTAS but no pedals. Now granted, the X35 does have a rocker underneath the throtle that could be used to control rudder, but I did not want to get used to it since I knew I would be getting pedals at some point in the future. So what did I do? I flew for 2+ weeks with NO rudder. Those single two weeks drastically changed my flying style. I have found that in any given sortie, whether I get 2 or 10 kills, my rudder input is absolutely minimal. The only time I get on the rudder is to help yank a snapshot. Of course I use rudder in defensive maneuvering, but insofar as offensive gunnery goes, I've found that my two week break of any rudder control greatly improved my gunnery. Not to mention all that E you save from stayin' off that rudder.
Just thought I might offer this to those of you that are struggling with gunnery. My advice: fly one or two weeks without your pedals. I promise, when you come back, your hit % will climb and you will find yourself in better position for guns solutions a greater % of the time.
S!
Nim
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Originally posted by aknimitz
My advice: fly one or two weeks without your pedals.
But stay away from the MC 202 during this trial period.
- oldman
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LOL! :)
Well put!
Nim
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Regarding no rudder use, what about the heavier planes that ..IMHO...need rudder to assist in tighter turning? I'd love to hear more on this topic Nim
I'll give it a shot...I alrteady turned off tracers, and that's helping a bunch also....
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Red Tail
Thinking that rudder helps turn a plane is a common misconception. It does not...regardless of aircraft weight.
Rudder is used to coordinate the roll into and out of the banked attitude...that's all. Once the bank is established, rudder is centered and back stick (pitch) is used to move the nose.
See more in the recent "rudder" article at SimHQ.
Andy
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What Andy said. Rudder does not assist in turning. What it CAN do is allow you to bleed speed to help you get to your corner speed quicker. This leads people to think that the rudder is actually assisting a tighter turn, when in reality it is just allowing you to bleed speed.
S!
Nim
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All coming from a guy that kills me as easily as falling off a chair (AK) :)
Thanks, Andy and Nim. Yet another lesson learned. Seems the more I learn the more Q's I have....
Until my next posting, see you all up .
PS..and it's hard to NOT use the rudder, after using em for X years in other sims... :)
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If you keep the ball centered it reduces drag on the aircraft. If you are having better results without rudder than with rudder, you need a clinic on how to use the rudder.
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I seem to be doing just fine, although there is no doubt I have a lot to learn. This thread basically started out on gunnin' only though Funked. Not ACM/BCM. Not using my rudder for 2-3 weeks greatly improved my gunnery as now I am always in a better position to take my shots as opposed to relying on the rudder to get me into position.
Nim
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No rudder for me is an automatic RTB. I can have an aileron missing, left or right elevator missing and I'll stick around and fight. My combat geometry is more drawn out, but If the rudder goes im out.
Drex
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I regularly get kills without rudder. One thing I will RTB for, and really the only thing, is elevator. Most of my ACM involves using the vertical in some form or another, and with no elev input, I be screwed :)
Drex when U gonna kick in and start helpin' with my VTA! (Link below)! :D
Nim
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Nimitz would it be more accurate to say you regularly get kills without moving the rudder from it's auto-trimmed position?
It seems like your initial post said that you used to use rudder incorrectly and since you stopped doing that your gunnery improved. Telling people not to use rudder at all is different from suggesting they only use it properly. I realize your suggestion was a learning exercise but it might be simpler just to say the rudder should be used correctly, not as an alternative to a proper lineup, instead of the potentially misleading 'no rudder'.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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FLS,
Um, I guess I could have made clear the fact that I fly with combat trim. But for two to three weeks, I did not use any rudder input on my end. I had no pedals, and did not want to use the lever on the X35. So while the game kept the rudder trimmed for me under combat trim, I never made any adjustments while shooting or lining up for shots (or during ACM).
This showed me that much of the time, especialyl with twisty sticks, the tendency is to always twist on 'em when you are turning. At least this was my experience with a twisty. Going to a HOTAS with no rudder input device did wonders for my ACM and gunnery. It taught me to get into position to take shots without having to use rudder to yaw the plane into position. Sure I could take the same shots using the rudder, but I would be out of position and not in as good an E state as I would be not using rudder.
No, I do use rudder from time to time on snapshots and deflection shots. But many of my kills are a result of absolutely 0 rudder input (again on my end). Yes I use Combat Trim.
And when I "SUGGESTED" that ppl not use rudder at all ... I did not mean permanently. I meant as a means to teaching yourself when the right time to use rudder is and when the wrong time to use rudder is.
Nim
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I got all that from your initial post Nimitz and I thought that was clear in my response. What I apparently didn't make clear was that since you have taken it upon yourself to help newbies you might want to make those points clearer to them since it seems like even Drex, who is not a newbie, misunderstood your 'no rudder' reference.
Whether you trim the rudder with auto-trim level, combat trim or manually is besides the point, the point is that the rudder is properly trimmed and is being used. I'm not pointing that out to criticise you but to clarify rudder use for those 'struggling with gunnery' whom you started this thread to help.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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The ONE time I got to really fly a small cessna, the pilot told me we would not use the rudder once we were airborne. And we did not, until we landed. Is that normal flying?
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Originally posted by Eagler
The ONE time I got to really fly a small cessna, the pilot told me we would not use the rudder once we were airborne. And we did not, until we landed. Is that normal flying?
Some people would say it's normal airplane driving but not flying. The design of modern small aircraft lets you fly with your feet on the floor at cruise speeds. They are designed to minimize adverse yaw and are very stable and easy to fly. It's likely the pilot made sure the rudder was properly trimmed.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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Aknimitz,
Damn son, you know as an okie we workin' the farm everyday milkin' the cows. I need your phone number in DC. Just started some training films. Going to do all the planes. P47, f6f done.
Give me a call 800-378-2533
Drex
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Same for me, I consider my ac crippled if the rudder goes.
I can't hit a barn door without rudder. And my gunnery is usually somewhere near 0.1 or even better..
AKNimitz you said you improved your gunnery, give us some evidence - numbers? How much your accuracy went up?
Edit: I checked your tour stats, so far the change doesn't seem to show in stats. However you have better than average gunnery it seems.
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Let's summarize:
Rudder = GOOD!
No Rudder = BAD BAD NASTY YUCK!
Any questions?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Before this experiment I was consistently around 7-9 %. Since my changes I am anywhere from 13-19%.
FLS, I am still confused. There is no way to turn off rudder, correct? So of course the rudder is always giving some type of input. When I said in my initial post was
My advice: fly one or two weeks without your pedals. I promise, when you come back, your hit % will climb and you will find yourself in better position for guns solutions a greater % of the time.
TO me this clearly meant dont use your rudder input device for a coulpe of weeks. Drex I dont think misunderstood my post. He simply said that he cannot fly as he likes to fly without rudder. I am just different, I can. The loss of the rudder to me is not as devastating as say an elevator.
And the intended recipients of this information was not newbies. Newbies are not the only sticks that struggle with their gunnery. I know sticks that have been in AH for over a year that struggle with their gunnery ... I was just offering one of my experiences as something some of them might try to make improvements.
Nim
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Speaking of films... I haven't heard back from you yet on the films I sent you, Nimitz. Speak up, boy! I know unemployment is a lot of work and all, but surely you can find the time to check out the films and get back to me. :)
Edit: I also made a film awhile back of me looping and doing silly, seemingly impossible things in a C-47. Want it?
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Mrsid - you didnt look very carefully at all then. Look at my hit % for Tours 13-17, average was 8.08%. Then look at my hit % for Tours 22-26, an average of 14.02%. Thats almost about a 75% increase. My friend, you dont think thats an improvement worth commenting on?
Nim
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Levy,
Honestly I havent gone through all those films. Most of 'em are pretty long, and consist of kinda the same stuff right? Its hard for me to watch someone else's film and figure out what to say about it. I was kinda waiting on the film editor to come out so I could break them up into pieces. Should I just pick a couple of them and tell you which ones so that you could comment on 'em?
Nim
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Originally posted by aknimitz
Should I just pick a couple of them and tell you which ones so that you could comment on 'em?
Yeah, I thought that was the original idea. Pick the ones that you think are appropriate and let me know what they are, then I'll write up a description of them for you.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Ah, ok. I probably did say that and just forgot at one point :) I'll shoot you an email this evening hopefully on the ones I pick.
Thanks
Nim
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We probably can skip Levi's films. All those fuggin' curse words and all.
Thumbs down
Drex
Film Critic
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FLS, I am still confused. There is no way to turn off rudder, correct? So of course the rudder is always giving some type of input. When I said in my initial post was
My advice: fly one or two weeks without your pedals. I promise, when you come back, your hit % will climb and you will find yourself in better position for guns solutions a greater % of the time.
My response was: I realize your suggestion was a learning exercise but it might be simpler just to say the rudder should be used correctly
Not using your pedals will only improve your shooting if you are in the habit of using the rudder incorrectly.
If you manually trim the rudder to center it's effectivly an extension of the vertical stabilizor so you could in a sense consider it turned off.
Of course if you're flying the P-38 there is no need to trim the rudder for different speeds like there is with single engine fighters.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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Originally posted by Drex
We probably can skip Levi's films. All those fuggin' curse words and all.
If you only knew how right you are. ;)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Nim, has Drex seen your definition of Dweeb? :)
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cc he has. Anyone that plays Natural Golf in my books qualifies as a dweeb. Until he beats me in golf, it stands!
Nim