Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: nonoht on July 02, 2000, 03:48:00 PM
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i wonder that seeing the squad call : WAFFEN SS.
In france Waffen SS were butchers (massacre of ORADOUR/GLANE and TULLE on june 1944)
i don't want to see these name relive in AH
These name bring Hate and facism with them...
So HTC it is possible to censure no "political correct" name in AH ?
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While I think there are limits to acceptable squad names, Waffen SS is historic at the very least.
Think of it this way- the Vikings certainly did their share of raping and pillaging, but we think nothing of naming our sports teams after them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Please, PLEASE don't bring this PC attitude to Aces High. If the name Waffen SS gets banned, who knows whats next? You cant just ban things because a certain person or handful of people find it offensive. Do you ban LW planes because they fought for the wrong cause? Do you remove the B17 because it lead to the inadvertant deaths of innocent people caught in it's bombing raids? Do you remove the gun from the soldier's hands because it sends the wrong image to youth that may be playing? Do you ban the act of shooting all-together because it is violent? War is hell. People got hurt, people got killed. That's war. Waffen SS was real, and there's nothing you can do to change that. As long as you play a sim that simulates killing another human being through whatever method, you can not complain about a HISTORICAL name in that game.
One more thing. Please don't turn this into a Swastica thread. I have talked to HiTech on this issue, and Swasticas will never be seen in Aces High, case closed. Don't argue about the Swastica, because it wont change anything.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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And they are probably all dead. It is history now - tragic and sad - but history.
Personally I don't like the squad names like "BEAT DOWN POSSE", etc. It brings a punk aspect to the sim that is unrealistic.
For now, about the only way to censor would be to provide a list of "acceptable" squad names and let groups pick. But who then decides what is acceptable? Remember, the Allies ran all sorts of firebomb raids on Berlin and Tokyo which resulted in the deaths of many innocent people. What about the squads that did that? Would those from Germany or Japan not be legitimate to ask to censor those squad names too?
Real war is hell. Real war kills people in all sorts of terrible, horrible, and painful ways. We are playing wargames on our computer and that will by necessity carry some amount of baggage of the real atrocities of war. People just need to accept that some will take offensive (to some or many) squad names or handles.
It is the same situation as putting swastikas on the German aircraft. It is historically accurate. Anyone who wants to play WWII simulations but wants to decide what is OK and not based on their own feelings in the matter is being a little hippocritical IMHO.
Some day the programs will evolve to allow you to censure whatever you wish on your own - similar to WB's "Carlin" filter. Until then people need to just deal with it.
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Kieren,
There was an SS unit called Vikings. Maybe the sports team is named after them. Coincidence or conspiracy?!
//fats
p.s. for the PC-anal people out there - I couldn't care less if it the sports team was named after my left buttock. Hey wait it would actually be kinda cool...
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Yeah but "Fats left buttock" doesn't have the same ring to it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I saw Waffen SS a few times on and off today and to be honest it did make me think about it but like everyone here's said its history, something we can learn from.
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Well if these guys are saying "Heil Hitler" or racial slurs then I can see a problem. But if they are just seeking to portray some of the Reich's most effective armored units, I don't have a problem with it.
Waffen SS were not the only combat units to kill civilians. The Japanese and Soviet Armies were guilty of this. And what about RAF bomber command and the USAAF's strategic bombing groups? Whether it's machine gunning them into a ditch or bombing them from 25,000 feet, it's still an atrocity. If you want to ban the Waffen SS name, then you should also ban the RAF Bomber Command units, 8th AF units, IJAAF units, etc.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-02-2000).]
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Waffen SS...wasnt that the militar branch of the SS?...
I mean the elite German division were SS divisions just as the Russian "guards" divisions.
Maybe you are confusing Waffen SS (pure militar force) with ALLGEMEINE SS (the force used to keep internal order and to guard the concentration fields.
I may be wrong but I think that Waffen SS was only a combat force.
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That would be Zemke's 'squad'. He was calling himself the 56th fighter group, but I think Daff mighta had some words with him about that... not sure. At any rate, he's changed the name to this SS thing. I think it's just him... mebbe someone else. We prolly aint gonna see it in another, oh, week and a half.
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I read an account where in the midst of the Battle for Rabaul, American Bomber Crews were ordered to straffe and kill all the survivors from their sunken ships (aftyer the Americans sunk the Japanese transports) the order was given becuase it was felt that the Japanese were close enough to the coast to make it there and eventually fight again. So that is what the USN and USAAC did, low level straffing runs on life boats full of Japanese Soldiers using everything from B25's to fighters. It was a massacre.
Was it neccesary? The Allied commanders thought so. Hind sight is ALWAYS 20/20. Hmmm, we should BAN all US AC, ya think?
(http://ww2.esn.net/~saved4sure/AMMO.jpg)
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If you have ethical problems with one part of ww2 recreation, how can you not have an ethical problem with the whole thing? The perfect a2a kill is one where you murder an unsuspecting pilot from behind. I recreat that as much as possible (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/eek.gif)
As long as their not spewing out racial or nazi crap it should be ok I think.
Udie
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funny how points of view differ . to me the perfect kill is where you meet him equal and beat him down.
and understanding the feelings of the people who were ruthlessly slaughtered by thos sorry sons of squeakes is both ss versions ( no shame on their decendents it was a one time gig) is hopefully eased by the fact that our grandadys hunted the great majority of the murderers down and killed um with greater kindness than they deserved.ss were not taken prisoner you know. best they got was a bullet in the head . or retirement in argentina (.00001%)
we killed um once you want to play um we will replay histry for ya hehe ...
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I guess that's what ya get when ya got Panzers in your game. They could choose to emulate a more traditional German armored division rather than the SS. Too bad.
And anyone who equates Nazi atrocities to the military acts of the Allies(or vice versa) in WWII is a complete and utter moron.
Cabby
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=44th FS "VAMPIRES"=
"The Jungle Air Force"
Welcome To The Jungle!!!"
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A very difficult question gents.
Waffen ss was the very top of the pops of the German military system.
Then again their where also knowns as men guilty to warcrimes. Then again, Im certain they ´wherent the only ones guilty of that.
Even allied groups commited crimes but where´nt convicted.
Waffen ss is a military group not the "butchers" in the concentrationcamps. These gents where not in "waffen" ss.
(waffen means weapon, right?)
I can see that people react on the word "ss", but then they have to read a little more history.
My vote to let the name "waffen ss" be valid, because it was an elite military unit.
(or more a elite branch with their own arment, uniforms, material, etc, etc.)
Crabofix
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complete and utter moron
I would reserve this term for those who equate the murder of civilians by aerial bombing with "military acts".
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-02-2000).]
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The Waffen SS were the military elite of the Wehrmacht for sure, alongside Parachute and Mountain troops.
But the SS was a political organisation. The proportion of 'true believing' Nazis, as opposed to soldiers who simply believed they were doing their duty for their country, was very high in SS formations. This largely explains why Waffen SS divisions carried names such as 'Liebstandarte Adolf Hitler' and 'Hitler Jugend.'
I think it's very difficult to seperate the political from the purely military side of things in this particular case. Calling a squad the SS, Waffen or otherwise, pushes good taste very close to the limit...
Vladd
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Im not a fan of the waffen SS. Nor the name.
Im even less of a fan of pc!
Pc is just another name for social control.
We are not sheep and looking over ones shoulder because of the group stinks!
If your going to have tank squads in AH get used to seeing the name SS.
1st 2nd 3rd and 5th SS were the best armored units from 42 on.
Before you jump on me im not a nazi or a facist wanabe.
Tolerance of the name waffen SS name imo is the PC way to go lol.
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YOU CALL THAT FREEDOM OF SPEACH ?????
This sons of bich HAVE to change their UGLY name !
My familly as lost 2 person because to this fukc* waffen SS and YES they were CIVILIAN!!
and the frontline was 400km north!
The 1st to name his squad 4° Régiment de Panzer-grenadiers SS "Der Führer" will have a VERY BAD DAY
Have a look to this pages : http://www.multimania.com/froogyfrog/index.htm (http://www.multimania.com/froogyfrog/index.htm) http://perso.club-internet.fr/acroy/ (http://perso.club-internet.fr/acroy/) http://www.fauvet.net/sf/Oradour/index.php3 (http://www.fauvet.net/sf/Oradour/index.php3) http://perso.club-internet.fr/mlacorre/colloque.html (http://perso.club-internet.fr/mlacorre/colloque.html) http://www.musee-resistance.com/index1.htm (http://www.musee-resistance.com/index1.htm)
and I just speak of France there was such crime in all Europe,Asia (japanese participation of the war effort)
Those saying that the waffen ss were proud soldier have to re-read history before trying to re-write it !
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Strange no ?
all of those who said that Waffen SS were only military unit live in a country far away of german atrocity during WW2....
In TULLE or ORADOUR/GLANE it was WAFFEN SS and not the Military police who kill all men in town and regroup all women children and old people in the church to burn it...
You said it was only Elite soldiers ??
Re-read history then...
SS is SS .
if you were is SS unit it was because you choose it... then you could go in Wermarch..
Hummm so i can call my squad "Himmler friends" cause, with you say, its only a "human"....
To bad pffffff!!!
Ask Europeen people who lost one members of their family if the Waffen SS were only a poor elite unit . I want to see the anwser
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Quote:
"I would reserve this term for those who equate the murder of civilians by aerial bombing with "military acts".
You sleeping, Funked??? War has been "Total War" for quite some time now. That means civilians get killed in war along with soldiers. It aint pretty, but hell, that's war.
Japan got nuked by a military aircraft flown by a military crew. Thus ended WWII. And my Dad, and a million other American servicemen, didn't have to assault, and ultimately destroy, the entire nation of Japan. Thank God.
If your nation is intent on world domination by force-of-arms, as Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan once were, be prepared to have your nation burned to the ground. Something for maniacal Dictators and their sheep-like populations to think about.
The days of nice little "battlefield manuevers" involving soldiers in colorful uniforms are long over. War sucks. And using the "SS" in a game is silly and offensive to many.
Cabby
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cabby, not defending nazis but....
ou argue against your own point. You say war is ugly, and then justify the nuking of civilans, or the firebombing of Bremen, and whatnot. I might just as easily say "war is ugly" and use it to justify killing Jews.
Atrocities or not, the Waffen SS were not butchers primarily, but soldiers. There is no denying they did horrible things - would that not make it even more satisfying to shoot them down, and then kill their chutes? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
I am very much against this PC "we tell you what you can handle to hear" attitude in general. LIFE is harsh. If one has a hard time dealing with facts of the past, one should not repress them back as much as possible. The path forward *must* be objective enlightenment - be it about drugs, prostitution, war crimes or squad names.
SQUAD NAMES! Geesh, how important is that? Waffen SS did exist, they were fanatic and well trained and equipped. It's not as though someone has an historically inaccurate squad called Nigga Killas.
Where do you start and where do you end? Are you in your country not allowed to have nationalsocialistic sympathies? Are some ideologies to be Verboten? Trust me; the lure of the ideologies will only grow as we try to keep them in the dark. And because of the lack of light, we won't even see it.
If Waffen SS is to be a verboten name, so should JG2. I am quite sure there were some dedicated nazi's there. Some probably killed a few innocent or defenseless men and women intentionally.
I loathe it, but I want to keep it out in the open, where people can have it exposed for what it is, and where it can be discussed. Putting your head in the sand and screaming "you are a meanie" just doesn't cut it in this world. Better to hold head high and do a frontal assault on the enemy. or, in my case, pretend to be conqureed and then sneak up and stab the f***ers in the back (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
Oops, there I went again. Will quit now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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(now that I'm more calm (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
For me it's not a question about squad name but more what they represent I'll do no diffence between "nigga killa" and "Waffen SS" both name are ugly to me !
I've nothing against JG* or KGsomething but the Waffen SS have done lot of horrible think in France Russia ...and it was not some but the whole Waffen SS.
The most horrible was that there was some french it this division (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) mostly the "malgrès nous" comming from Alsace (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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well I'm a german, and I must say to me the term Waffen SS is offensive.
Yes, the Waffen SS was the military branch of the SS and not the one guarding the concentration camps, they were combat troups and probably even the best ones germany had after '42. But they were still part of the SS, germany's elite group filled with fanatical nazi's, completely indoctrinated with Hitler's beliefs and therefore believing that people in russia, france, norway, poland etc. were not innocent civilians but germany's racial enemy's...
That's why I can fully understand nonoht's and straffo's point of view, members of the Waffen SS might have been soldiers, but they WERE all believing in nazi ideals and THAT is the point. I do have a problem with people intentionally calling themselves after a group that was made of dedicated nazi's, soldiers or not.
Santa you're right, its pretty likely that there were some dedicated nazi's in JG2, but when you guys chose that name for your squad you wanted to call yourselves after the famous Luftwaffe Jagdgeschwader 2, that way honouring the great pilots that fought in it and the men that thought they were serving their country, NOT the ones believing in Nazi ideals. This is obviously different with the guys that formed this "Waffen SS" squad, they called themselves after a group of believing Nazi's, which in my opinion is a pretty clear statement.
And no, I'm not trying to suppress historical facts, I'm very much for objective discussion of this topic, but calling a squad "Waffen SS" isn't making it subject for objective discussion in my opinion, its just plain offensive.
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Redwing
Commanding Officer
Red Dragons Aces High Division
www.reddragons.de (http://www.reddragons.de/aceshigh)
(http://www.reddragons.de/aceshigh/stuff/sig.gif)
[This message has been edited by RDRedwing (edited 07-03-2000).]
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Just to make a point clear :
I've nothin against german people (I fly with them in glider (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif))
I've a good brunch of friend who are German people and I now they are NOT Nazi (in general they are the opposite!)
I can understand the admiration for the pilot of the german army like Galland,Priller they were doing their duty!.
But I can't understand the admiration of some of the low level representant of mankind like Goering,Himmler,Mengelle.
Last since when the Waffen SS as something related with LuftWaffe ? I've never heard of SS LuftWaffe !
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This is my personal opinion,
I agree on PC dangers, and for this and only for this i can accept a name like that can exist in AH.
BTW I want to express my scorn to those idiots that choosed tht name.
Ive just readed again the chapter -Occupation and repression- of John Keegan's "the second world war". This was tge text i used for my contemporary history exam, and is still considered one of the best works about ww2...In this chapter u can find well explained how the german elimination system worked in the eastern front.
Here's some facts (from the book):
1- waffen ss were supposed to attend courses and pass exams like "nazionalsocialistic ideology" ...wich comprehended themes like racial hate and indifference to the human life.
2- Himmler talked of the SS (not specifying wich part of em) as better than other wariors because able to kill anyone without felling mercy...his words:"..able to drag away a children for his mother hands and kill him in front of her.."
3- in the estern front the front was divided in a first and a second line..those 2 lines were often distant many kms (it was a movement war)..in the space between em all happened...
4- but were not spontaneous acts of by then inhuman soldiers, they were well organised from germany. The troops used were the waffen ss because they were usually very mobile elite troops (panzers and panzergrenad.) wich were not usually used to hold the front but to lead counter offensive--->so during the long periods when the front was immobile they were used very effectively (thanks to their well trained lack of mercy) not only "to kill civilians", but to perpetrate genocides, rationally projected and organised by their loved nazi leaders.
PS I do agree completely with nonoht, defendin those waffen ss are once again people from contries that have not experienced the german occupation...I am Italian our country and our civilians experienced both US carpet bombin and waffen ss massacres...but almost all our grandfathers consider waffen ss war crimes more shamefull...The sudden death in a carpet bombing is maybe different from dying lookin while some joung inhuman beings rape your woman and kill your child.
PS My grandfather fought in Ukraine, where was seriously wounded and earned a silver honour medal...although the fascist regime managed to wash is brain so well during his Farnesina college years, so that he remained a fascist..he remember with suffering and shame the things he saw in that "noone's land" in Ukraine, the people he remember were wearing an helmet with a white double ss painted on it..i said helmet)
Busc
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Originally posted by Vladd:
The Waffen SS were the military elite of the Wehrmacht for sure, alongside Parachute and Mountain troops.
Actually I got this wrong. The Waffen SS were not part of the Wehrmacht, the armed wing of the German state at all: They were the armed wing of the Nazi Party. The fact that they fought alongside the Wehrmacht does not change this fact. This makes them quite different from a unit like JG2, IMO. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Prior to and during the early part of the war, prosepective candidates for the Waffen SS had to have an 'Acceptable' political outlook and be able to provide evidence of an 'Aryan' origin back to 1800. Draw your own conclusions.
I'm not demanding the name be banned. I'm just very dubious as to why anyone would want to belong to a squad with such a name.
Vladd
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Guys.
Offensive or not, these units were real. These units were soldiers who believed in what they fought for, and they were bloody good at it, unfortunately.
The men of Waffen SS had a strong belief in the nazi ideology with all its twisted twirks and warps, no doubt. So had the U-boat crews (with a few captains being the exception).
The bombing crews dropping bombs and killing tens of thousands over Italy, France and Germany had a very strong belief in their ideology, i.e freedom and democracy.
I have no idea about how many innocent civilians the Waffen SS executed with military precision. I DO have an idea how many the American bombers killed in the very same way - planned and executed in cold blood, be it from some 25k up in the air. The firebombing of Dresden took 30 000 innocent women, children and elderly men's lives (no young men there since all where fighting).
Yet I feel compelled NOT to loathe thse pilots, even though they knew exactly what they were doing. A dead civilian is a dead civilian, be it in the name of freedom or the name of racial purity.
One of the worst possible enemies of democracy is censorship. I understand that some people find the name Waffen SS offensive - I personally don't, and I live in a country that was ocupied during WWII, and my grand grand father was a resistance man storing explosives under my grandmothers bed. But. Offensive as they may be to some, if we start on this journey, we will never stop. I occasionally find the word Christian offensive (I am sure some of you have met the Christians I'm talking about, if not, go to http://www.godhatesstudmuffins.com (http://www.godhatesstudmuffins.com) and http://www.tencommandments.com). (http://www.tencommandments.com).) And Jew, and Muslim. Hell, throw in any organised religion and I'll probably dislike it, due to the way it is used by some to control the masses and propogate hatred and bigotry. Power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely and all that. The Christians in particular have a very bad track record going back in time, yet I do not think we should censor that word. I even loathe the word "dweeb".
Censor anything, and you've started walking down the path that leads to units like Waffen SS. There is, however, a difference between Waffen SS and my fictional squad Evil Atheist Conspiracy Lion Feeding Squad (Death to All Religions). The latter has one intent only; to be offensive, whereas the former can be both. I.e what we must establish here is intent, and if it is malicious, we deal with it *as a group*, not by censorhip.
It's the principle of censorship I am against, and I will even defend freedom of speech even though it sometimes repulses me. And would probably fight and get injured (only the good ones die young, and I am not one of those (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) for someone's right to use the words Waffen SS.
To me, nazism is another ideology amongst others, but being amongst the worst of them. No educated intelligent emotionally stable man will adhere to it due to its inherent flaws - if we call it what it is instead of hiding it because we are sensitive to such issues.
No, I haven't got any relatives I know of that got killed by the nazi's. Only relative I have who fought as an active soldier fought for the Wehrmacht and was killed in 1944, and that is one distant relative.
But I am not trying to make an emotional beg to the heart argument. My whole foundation rests on the idea that censorship to protect democracy or anything else does just the opposite. Censorship to protect sensibilities the same.
To end it up, I feel there is a difference between censorship and some of the hate crime laws, but that is an entirely different matter.
Hope I haven't inadvartently offended anyone belonging to the religions I mentioned; the vast majority of theists I've met have been good people with objective minds and I even *gasp* like some of them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif).
This is my position, don't hate me for it. I just have issues, but other than that I am the normal non friendly StSanta you'v grown to loathe.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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[This message has been edited by snag (edited 07-03-2000).]
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Originally posted by cabby:
And anyone who equates Nazi atrocities to the military acts of the Allies(or vice versa) in WWII is a complete and utter moron.
Cabby
Cabby, i assume that you are referring to me when you made this statement. Which I can only guess you are misunderstood??
I am a true Patriot, Red, White and Blue in my veins bud. I am a proud member of the USAF for the last 12 years and unless God interveins will retire. I can assure you that I wholly appreciate what those military members before me sacrificed. So When I made my post I was just making an argument that History has happened--it is not subjective, but objective. For those that have their feelings still hurt over what happened in WWII, I say remember it, learn from it, but GET OVER IT! I lost people too in that war.
Liberal Ideals are vague at best, I am so sick of this PC attitude.
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Hi all ,
i agree totally with nonoth here.
Although it's hard to find a war that's not a crime it's a little different with Waffen SS.
Waffen SS weren't only elite units. Their members were the prototyp of Adolf Hitlers strange ideas of a new class of human beings, that should have the natural right to rule the world.
That included the right to commit every crime to enemy military personal or civilians
you can think of.
And the Waffenn SS committed a lot of very ugly and evil crimes during the whole time of WW2.
Members of the Waffen SS "Totenkopfverbände" also run the concentration camps.
The Waffen SS is a shame in the history of mankind and especially of german history.
Most of their nembers were the badest amazinhunks.
I simply can't understand people who like to use that diddlying name for their squad in AH.
And i think it shouldn't be aloud too.
If i see any of the Waffee SS types of pilots i will shoot their chutes that#s for sure. : O
blitz Germany
[This message has been edited by blitz (edited 07-03-2000).]
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Agreed 100% with RDRedwing .. i couldn't put it better.
oh and btw .. I AM over it .. but there will be things in Human history that won`t be forgotten and therfore will always cast a black shadow (and thus be offensive by nature to some people) ... so is the use of Waffen SS as a Name -> forbidden by law btw in Austria.
Phillip "Duckwing6" Artweger
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I think you are all jumping the gun, if the Waffen SS members want to form a historically based squad then let them, if however they start following the ideals of this squad and start yelling 'Heil Hitler' over the main arena channel then I am sure not only will the community act but HTC will act as well to put these guys out of the game.
AGW must be quiet, Cabby the troll has popped up
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While studing society, I have come up with several universal laws that apply to humans when living in groups. The first of these, "Wmutt's first rule of social interaction", is:
For every freedom, there is an equal responsability.
So while we now have the freedom to name our squads whatever we choose, be it Waffen SS or Fatty's left Buttock, or whatever, we will loose that freedom when we give up the responsability of using names that are reasonable in nature. As to who is to decide what 'reasonable' is, that falls to each one of us to independently decide. Personaly, I don't think I am too offended by Waffen SS, but I could see how might terrebly offend some persons, so I would not choose it.
I equate it to the current anti-smoking laws here in California. As long as some moron insists that his personal right to light up in a crowed movie theater is more important than his responsability to behave in a reasonal manner with reguard to his fellows, we need a law saying he can't. It's sad, but it is product of society.
So what we should do is inform this Squad leader, in a polite and civilized manner, that the name he has choosen will offend certian persons. Then if he is not the moron from my above example, he will change it. If not, maybe we, as a group, do not have the responsability to have such freedom.
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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels
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Hi all
about the SS / Waffen-SS:
the original waffen-ss was the personal life guard of adolf hitler, the SA was the "political fighting unit" of the party before the WWII. in the beginning afaik the SS was 1 regiment strong, the "Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler". This regiment became later the wellknown 1st SS armoured division. Simply said mr. himmler (reichsfuehrer SS) decided that he wants an own army of his men, politically loyal to the nazis. Thus more and more units were raised, beside others for example one unit was recruited by the guards of the concentration camps, i think it was the 3. SS division "totenkopf". they were fighting units , but they were very fanatic, and as nonoht and straffo said they committed many warcrimes. as far as one can read most times they were often very hard fighters, but most of them were this not because of a good training (like f.e. the paratroups) but because of there fanatical mind and ofcourse because of their equipment that was allways the best. If i remember right i read that if there were supplies available the first to get them was the waffen SS. many of this units (not all) were guilty for committing warcrimes. but in one thing nonoht is wrong: they were not all volunteers, to the end of the war they were recruited like the soldiers of the wehrmacht, because they have to keep the numbers up, and this was not longer possible with volunteers.
as far as to the squad name "waffen SS":
i dont like it, and as soon as i have the feeling that there will be rassism in this game (or in WWII online later) and HTC don´t react to it i will be out. But right now i think (at least i hope) these are some young guys who don´t have the knowledge, they only like the name because it was feared.
cya
ibreh
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For what its worth,
I am against exercising limitations to what people can call a squad. If the name is offensive, they will be ostracized and hopefully will change it or leave. If they begin verbally attacking people in the community, thats completly different and actions should be taken against the individual.
My 2cents,
Jarbo
[This message has been edited by jarbo (edited 07-03-2000).]
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While the Squad name may not be offensive to Americans (and AH is a american game), it is offensive to others. Myself included.
Az
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I make it quick
I disgust the SS. Its make no difference is it the Waffen SS or the "normal" SS. They where all killers. Remember Warsaw ghetto. They are the shame on the German people. To make them equal to the Vikings is not right. In the time of the Vikings there was almost no kind of Civilisation in Europe. On the same you could spit on the Crusaders, who organised the greatest massacre of Civilians during the siege and capture of Jerusalem.
And another thing, SS didn't have any Airforce. For that was the Luftwaffe up.
So if you let that such names apeare in the AH, tomorow they will march through the Streets again.
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The only solution I can see is to make a list of units during ww2 that committed horrendus acts and ban the names. That should include Russian, German, Japanese, US, British and any other country involved. We can make a web site and document the atrocities.
Or we can forget about the whole thing and file it under "it's only a game". To pick on just German units is a diservice to history and to those who suffered at the hand of evil - evil has no borders.
Either way I'll be happy.
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as a german i must say, i was shocked when
i saw this squad name.
when i'll meet someone of this squad, i'll
hunt him down, even when i have to fly a pony
for this hunt.
shame on this guy, knowing nothing from history.
these squad or unit names may be the reason
why i'll NEVER join WWIIOL when out.
------------------
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/habichtnew.gif)
"Die Ta 152 war meine Überlebensversicherung in den letzten Tagen des Krieges" OFw Willi Reschke, Ritterkreuzträger, 38 Abschüsse
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The way this Zemke character acts and talks, he's probably a teen (or young adult), maybe on a 2-week free trial account.
Would such a character want to create a true historical squadron for the values it lived by? I strongly doubt. (Someone mentioned he used the name 56th FG for a while, when there already was one around?) The name was rather chosen for its image.
I don't think we're looking at this from the right perspective.
This is rather an act from an immature mind.
In fact, I've been playing for only 3 weeks, but I find disquieting to see behavior that you see in Quake games (I know from experience). Strong language, disrespect for others, childish reactions to losing, unwarranted agressivity. I.e. immature behavior.
I'm not saying I'm seeing a lot of it, but just enough to get uncomfortable.
This totally free and ridiculously easily accessible two-weeks free trial bothers me a lot, because it means we get young Quakeheads who have no respect for others, and won't abide by common sense and decency.
I never made much use of the .ignore command in WB, but I think I'll have to use .squelch pretty regularly in AH.
Don't get me wrong. It's not that I don't want to see youngsters in AH. I had/have young squaddies, and they're both class acts (<S> Rendar/Ruskis and Gallan!) Heck, I'm only 32, I still feel young.
But when I fly, it's for fun, for comradeship, and I expect adult behavior from my opponents, and mutual respect. We unfortunately can't expect that from most Quakeheads.
I'd really like a .squelch file that automatically loads on entering the arena, please.
Say, I'm looking at the Squad roster, and the Waffen SS disappeared. No squad with Zemke as CO anymore...
Good.
IMHO there is a limit to what "free speech" should mean.
One's freedom of speech ends where one's neighbor's rights begin.
------------------
DrSoya
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF [AH]
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF [WB]
Part of the Northolt Wing (http://www.raf303.org/northolt) (First Polish Fighter Wing)
[This message has been edited by DrSoya (edited 07-03-2000).]
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Gentlemen.
I am sorry for putting in my "small" thoughts about the name of the certain squad "waffen ss".
I also reacted strongly when I first saw the name pop up after a "kill".
But after thinking more about it and about the very elitegroup the waffen ss was during the wwII, I reconsidered, even if it was with mixed emotions.
Yes, SS means the dirtiest scoundrels that ever walked the earth. Volunteers for their beleifs in the nationalsocialistic doctrine.
After reading, some of the replies to this thread and thinking a little more about it, I strongly apose any politicalnames of any kind, being used as part of a squadname.
(This means also the word "soviet" etc etc..)
Crabofix
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Look, I don't like the guys choice of such a blatantly racist and inhumane unit to name his squad after either. He obviously did it as an antagonistic means of getting attention, or maybe he's a nutjob bigot or something. It doesnt' matter . People lets not be nazis about this, I believe in everyones' right to free speech no matter how wrong they are . It is fascist to censor words, even if those words reflect fascist ideals .
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hey hey
in this moment a squad does not exist in arena that it is called waffen ss .
lampo
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Primo Gruppo Caccia
-=Asso Di Bastoni=-
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Plus, there already is a squad named,
no squad because Pyro made him change i
Squad CO:
Axiom
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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This is an extension of the swastika argument.
I have read a little history, and had some discussions on the WWIIOnline UBBs concerning the Swastika and the SS Units.
I can apprieciate the offense taken by the individuals who lost family at Tulle or Orandour/Glane.
In my opinion, it is important to discuss the Swastika and the SS Units. By sharing the information about NAZISM, Racism, and what these units did we can all learn something.
I find Warmutts and St. Santa's post particularly enlightening.
I reserver the right to take offense at the Swastika and those units that choose to use SS identifiers. I am not prepared to sweep them under the rug, hoping they go away.
Read and Learn people, read and learn, and apply your knowledge. The SS were not the good guys, anyone who joins a unit using a SS unit identifier should be ready to accept an amount of derision. I only hope they can bear it like Jackie Robinson who was the first African American Baseball player, and a classy dude.
As to all the folks offended by the SS unit designations, learn to fly better, learn where the SS flyers are, shoot them down, unmercilessly.
Those who do not remember the past are condemnd to repeat it!
Remember the Swastika and the SS units and what they did, share that information, don't hide it hoping it will go away.
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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Political Correctness shows its ugly face yet again. A new level of the obsurde has been reached, for Cod's sake furget about it. If they want to call themselves Waffen SS or I bomb yer bellybutton till ya firebomb burn civilians it's ONLY A FRIGGIN GAME NO MATTER WHAT YOU NAME A SQUAD THE FINAL OUT COME WILL BE YOU SHOOT ME I SHOOT YOU . Get pissed at that squad you nail it with all you have. Don't start streching the concept of what is right or wrong with what has actually happend in real life . If it offends you tough luck, if they are not directing anything directly towards you ,you do not need to worry or complain, let them be...If i recall this is not comunism or some sort of cheap dictatorship ,again just let them be.
In regards to calling the SS butchers(I'm not defending the SS in any way) is highly hypocritical hence the civilian losses inflicted on the german people in the war by the Allies was in vast quantities ,burned bodies destroyed towns and killed children..So don't go biased and say oh the German people had to pay for supporting such an evil man..but still they were innocent civilians mostly women ,old men ,and children
Both sides did horrible things even those famous squadrons in the MA.
[This message has been edited by Glasses (edited 07-04-2000).]
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Glasses ,
for me it's not a matter of what the regular allied or german soldier have done during their duty.
I know as others that war is violent and cruel!
It's 1st the respect for the fallen,
2nd a way to learn to some history impaired that they are wrong,3rd avoid advertisement for an ugly political system ,4th I'll be equally shocked by a "Ku Klux Clan" squadron so I will not be involved such a game.
And yes the Waffen SS were having a deliberate criminal behaviour during the war it was a part of their training/choice!
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besides all the political arguments - I follow Redwings post here 100%!-, The "waffenSS" wasn't even 1 Military Unit, like a squad, at all.
I am wondering what kind of people and why they come up with such a name.
Maik
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Okay, I say ban FUBARS while your at it.
It doesn't mean Fixed Up Beyond All Recognition.
The First word is offensive to me BAN IT!
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(http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1/dtahcard.gif)
"Downtown" Lincoln Brown.
lkbrown1@tir.com
http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1 (http://www.tir.com/~lkbrown1)
Wrecking Crews "Drag and Die Guy"
Hals und beinbruch!
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While this is a little off topic the subject at hand, somewhere along the way a comparison came up of the allied air crews and the Waffen SS.
I look at it this way. To those who have never been to a holocaust museum. GO. It may make you sick to your stomach but it something that must be done to remind us of the past.
I think the comparison was really ridiculous. Alot were fighting just to preserve their way of life, in the case of Europeans, namely the British who were forced to fight off an invasion, and the rest of Europe that had already lost their homeland. Most of the Americans were drafted, and were their because they had to be. I can't think of any allied crew that stated they felt what they were doing was "right" morally, and had the basic mindset that if this wasn't stopped here and now, it never would. Ask any bomber crew about moral during those raids. It's not like the highlight of their day was killing civilans.
In the case of the SS, I am baised from knowing many holocaust survivors in the Houston area and a neighbor who survived iterogation by an SS officer in early '44.
These people had no problems taking orders, they lived them. (But considering many had grown up in the Nazi political machine it's not suprising).
It's in the past, and hopefully will never happen again.
But when looking at it in hindsight, I find it troubling that people who were fighting for their way of life, or forced by orders are compared to people who willingly commited such act without question, reason, or morals.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled PC issue flame war.
- Jig
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"GO. It may make you sick to your stomach but it something that must be done to remind us of the past."
Exactly the same can be said about the A-bomb museum in Hiroshima.
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
"This is Yardstick. Follow me"
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TY downtown! My point exactly.
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Sorry Jig, but i disagree...
Do you think it's obeying orders or defending homeland:
[list=1]
- Strafing civilian columns of escapees from front line (and if you ever fly at low alt, you know that you CAN see if they are civilian or not).
- Carpet bombing a city without any military objective as escuse (Dresda's citizen can tell you).
- Rape womans and kill mens when "liberate" a small town (happens lot of time in Italy, especially with the colonial troops the Free France sent there).
- Hold in a lager american citizen because of their japan origin (lot of them died).
[/list=a]
And so on...
The point is: war is hell, and nobody can say "we have done the right think in the right way", the big difference between allied and axis was the first win and the second loose, and from the beginning of humankind, who loose is the bad guy, the winner is the good guy.
I am glad the allied wins, because i dont like the nazi and fascist doctrine, but the price was high, and we dont have to hidden this with old propaganda stuff.
Atrocities are common in both parts in every war fought in world, but the winner tend to "forget" the think they have committed, and point the finger on those of the looser.
Before jumping up and flame me, i invite you to think about the different way you see two very similar wars: Vietnam and Afghanistan.
In the first you see the colonialist nation as the "good ones" and the rebels as "bad guys", 'cause USA was the colonialist nation.
In the second the nasty and freedom killer USSR is the bad boy, and the fierce and good people of Afghanistan are the good boys, because USSR was the West country's enemy.
But both of them where the same old dirty colonial wars.
Fact is that Nazi make genocide, this make them different?
If you look back on history, you'll see:
Armenian
Kurds
Native americans
Crusades
Early christians
and others, for sure... somethink to think about.
I am not justifying the horrible thinks the Nazi did in WW2, i want to be clear in this
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/mad.gif)
Just to let you know was'nt the first time, and (sad think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)) was not the last.
Stopping to be OT, if someone want to form a squad named after some Waffen SS unit, this is an historical sim, for me is not a problem.
If someone else, shooting at my chute, says "this is the end Italians deserve" (i start worrying a little (and this has happened), but it's still a game (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif).
When, watching news, i see people walking down the road in the uniform of the KKK, i start wondering about the mother of stupids, always pregnant.
Finally when i see people of a strong italian party, now selfcalling democratic, passing near a famous building in Piazza Venezia in Rome acting the Roman Salute (the salute Nazi and fascist share), i understand the thinks are not changed, or changed only in appareance.
Is not the name that make the difference.
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Actually, the first Genocide of the 20th Century was the Armenians (in Turkey) 1,200,000 dead. To this day, the Turks deny it. When it happened, the world turned a blind eye.
Interestingly, when Hitler's closest advisors querried him on the Jewish question and how it would make Germany look in the worlds eyes, he replied:
"Who remembers the Armenians?"
Meanwhile, we are still Allied with this country (strategic ports) when they have not made even an apology or reparations for this crime. Not only that, they're at it again. This time slaughtering Kurds - whole villages! I've personally seen pictures that people have risked their lives to smuggle out of that country documenting these atrocities.
Last time I heard, the US was a democracy. The will of the people through government. I find it hypocritical to jump on this fellows bad taste in a game, when in real life with real lives you sit by and watch.
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My first thought - there's always one, groan. I would have thought anyone against historical fascism would be the first to promote freedom of speech and freedom of choice.
Don't make the mistake of thinking that the Allies were all clean - Remember, history is written by the winners. Rewritten even by Hollywood - Showing U110 being relieved of Enigma secrets (actually the bi-gram tables) by US, when all that happened ages before US invited the Japs to Pearl.
It's a game, it's a name, no-one's getting hurt, so just leave 'em alone.
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The Nazi's hold the record I believe, 5 million or so?
BTW you don't have to win a war to write history.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"One more dead brain cell and you're a talking monkey."
Yankee
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I would think that german players would be upset. For the number of Germans the SS killed (jews, gypseys, gays, political dissadents, ect. If for no other reasons.
I cant imagin a free internet being available under the nazi system. They might even have chucked a few of you fellows into the ovens.
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I was trying not to defend the Americans, or any of the allies for that matter, just trying to give it another prespective. Alas I'm baised, as I said, because I've met quite a few Holocaust survivors, and several old gentlemen with the 8th AF. While it is only a small prespective I view it was valid because they lived it.
Death is death, be it instant vaporization or, fear of death every moment in a concentration camp. May death be all around, watching and wondering if today will be the day, or from a empire that has been warned of complete destruction but insists of sacrificing it's people's lives to embrace it's crumbling empire. Death lurks in the house of the German family hiding in their stair well, as it does to their counterparts in Britain, and the GI in the foxhole, or the soilders marching in the bitter Russain winter, those on the ships at Pearl, the Uboat crews hunted from above, the exhausted German pilot squeezing in one last sortie for the fatherland, the tail-end charlie. Death is everywhere, for that is what war is.
It comes down to one thing, a man fighting for his beliefs, alongside men who believe the same.
I guess I have no real problem with "Waffen SS", although the name is not offensive, the images it provokes are. As long as their can be a bomber squad called "The Lucky Bastards Club" I recommend the PC brigades lay down their arms. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And if I ever make it to Japan I will visit that museum, as with any other historical sight that I can manage. Same goes with Europe. The Holocaust museum in Houston is on no historic grounds. It is on the outskirts of a Jewish community who payed for, and run it. But for what it's worth it, it is no different looking into those pictures than it is walking on the beachs of Normandy, the Arizona, Hiroshima, Berlin, London, Bastonge, Stalingrad, or place where such horrible things happen.
- Jig
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Originally posted by Minotaur:
The Nazi's hold the record I believe, 5 million or so?
BTW you don't have to win a war to write history.
more then 6 million (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
And that's just Jews.
- Jig
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I think the name is immature and stupid but I would fight to the death for the right of this immature, stupid person to name his squad whatever immature, stupid name he desires. Do I like neo-nazis? Lord, no. But do I like living in a country where they have the right to assemble? Very much so.
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I don't understand what all the fuss is about. It doesn't matter who names their squad what. What's past is past, and let it be. If someone want's to name their squad "Jew Killers", that is a little extreme, and I know no one would approve. But if someone names their squad after a historic squad, that's a good thing, because it's sorta like keeping the history alive, no matter what the squad's name is. None of our generation pays any respect to those who fought is war, living or dead, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) and I like seeing historic squads in these virtual WWII sims. It doesn't matter what the name is. It might mean that someone is paying respect to those who died in combat. That's what I'd do.
Aaron "texace" Giles
the only 15 year old in the
>>457th BG (H) "Fait Accompli)<<
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Actually, the Nazi's do not hold the record. The Soviets got them beat with an estimated 20 million killed by the infamous purges and "restructuring". Of their own people even, but hey, they were allieds and who cares about commies anyway?
I say ban all Russian aircraft. And all Russians ;D
If there ever comes along a squad with a name I find particularly offensive, I'll hunt it every time I log on. I believe there are several of us who would and in the end, the dweebs would get tired of being gangbanged (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
In other words; they have the freedom to call themselves what they want, I have the freedom of reacting to it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 07-05-2000).]
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Lets just forget all the history and say that nazis are bad, nothing else, because it seems to hurt too many to talk about it.
..then after we forget that, lets prepare for the next hitlers coming.
If we forget the things, how do we know what to be afraid of?
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The Nazi's hold the record I believe, 5 million or so
Small potatoes compared to Stalin & the red army.
Just inside the east German border with Poland, the town of Nemmersdorf was the first to fall into the hands of the victorious Red Army. Overrun by
General Gatlitsky's 11th Guards Army, his soldiers set about raping, looting and killing with such ferocity that eventually discipline had to be
restored to force the soldiers back to fighting the war. When the Soviet 4th Army took over the town five days later, hardly a single inhabitant
remained alive. Women were found nailed to barn doors after being gang raped, their bodies then used for target practice. Many women, and girls as
young as eight years old, were raped so often and brutally that they died from this abuse alone. Children were shot indiscriminately and all those
trying to flee were crushed to death under the treads of the tanks. Forty French prisoners-of-war were shot on the spot as spies after welcoming the
Red Army as liberators. In other East Prussian villages the same scenes were witnessed, men and boys being castrated and their eyes gouged out
before being killed or burned alive.
Of course, nothing justifies Nazi action. Just pointing put that unfortunately, they don't hold any record.
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Well we have certianly gratified zemkes lust for attention. Which was the only reason he would have named his squad waffen ss in the first place.
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Originally posted by Pongo:
Well we have certianly gratified zemkes lust for attention. Which was the only reason he would have named his squad waffen ss in the first place.
I could not aggree more. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"One more dead brain cell and you're a talking monkey."
Yankee
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Got to remind that allied bombings (mainly american and then british) caused over 3 million civilian casualties, which of most were innocent.
Allies werent any god sent angels either.
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Hmmmm, this one comes down to a business decision...
How many players would walk away from AH if the Waffen SS is permitted to stay? And how many players wouldn't subscribe to AH because it permitted the above squad name?
Now how many would quit if the SS name is banned? (probably 0)
Think its pretty obvious what will happen
SKurj
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I love history, always have and always will. I fly for the most part strickly german aircraft as I have always had a great respect for many of the great Luftwaffe pilots and their planes.
But I got to tell ya, I dont like the squad name Waffen SS and I would ask that these guys seriously consider changing it to a more historically accurate Luftwaffe Fighter Group, like the JG2 has done. Just do it out of respect for the many people that WWII has scarred, especially some of our European Sim members.
I realize it is a free society in the US but with that freedom I would hope also comes some compassion and understanding.
As for me, I will continue to fly Luftwaffe, Im bombing base 26, ect.. not Kursk. Its a game, but a game with (IMHO) no room for the SS.
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/jag1.jpg)
[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 07-05-2000).]
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Originally posted by texace:
if someone names their squad after a historic squad, that's a good thing, because it's sorta like keeping the history alive, no matter what the squad's name is. None of our generation pays any respect to those who fought is war, living or dead, (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) and I like seeing historic squads in these virtual WWII sims.
Aaron "texace" Giles
the only 15 year old in the
>>457th BG (H) "Fait Accompli)<<
Thankyou texace (and Kats, who also had very good posts). I am glad to see people with more than two brain cells still outnumber those with less than two brain cells in this community. The fact that this thread has gone on so long is actually good. Look at all we have learned, and remembered. Funny how people today want to use WWII for entertainment value, but don't let anyone have a squad name that makes people remember what is was actually all about. I am 100% American not some nazi nutt as the hysterical masses have assumed. It's amazing a simple "name" in a "game" gets people all fired up, yet they could care less(speaking to the U.S. audience) when a certain polititian virtually hand delivers nuclear weapons to the communist Chinese OR when he puts forth an agenda to make sure lawful citizens have no right to carry fire arms. Well I could go on but I am late for work.
Oh yea, I named my "squadron" becuase I dive tanks alot. Not sure "I" like the name, it is great when I am in a pnzr, but does not sound right when I am in my 109. Well if "I" do change it , it will be becaue "I" don't like it...
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Zemke, many many thanks for assuming that there are people who have 2 brain cells, I assume I am one of them.
If you would step a bit out of your US-centric view you maybe would see that there's a world outside where such a squad name is highly offensive.
The oh so liberal US citizens have strong problems with sex, cussing words and others, which I can respect. To me, hearing someone say diddly isn't in any way embarassing or offensive, and I certainly don't use these words in RL.
So just FYI, playing games with SS squads is offensive in other areas of the world, may it be germany, may it be france, poland, russia or others. If your more than 2 brain cells can't grasp this I can't help it.
Pissed off, Az
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381st BG (H)
"Triumphant we fly"
-
Az
Now you're holding back again.
Let the guy know what you REALLY think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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I don't know how you have learn history my dear Zemke but you would better re-read your books.
And I hope that one day you should take the time to visit us in Europe and learn why we are so upset.
btw you have perhaps more than 2 brain cells but you are suppose to use it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Originally posted by StSanta:
Now you're holding back again.
This is a classical no win situation. Everyone looses. What's more to say, except that I've lost it already?
Az
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381st BG (H)
"Triumphant we fly"
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How ridiculous, just plain ridiculous, that someone would object to another using HISTORICALLY CORRECT INFORMATION in choosing a name for their squadron in a SIMULATED WORLD which contains equipment modeled around THE SAME PERIOD IN HISTORY. Thats like me getting riled about a squadron called 'The Drunk Drivers'. If you do not agree with those who have formed a squadron and chosen a name then do not ask to join because you obviously would not like it, but LET THEM BE. Who knows, maybe they ran across the name in a history book and it sounded 'cool' or 'neat' or they thought it was 'the bomb', but whatever their reason its THEIR squadron. As long as they conform to the rules concerning gameplay here and conduct themselves accordingly then its NOBODY elses business WHAT they call their squadron. Just remember this, its up to the folks that run this to decide what's what. Now if by chance they feel for some reason a name is inappropriate then thats that. They have a business to run AND they have the final say. In closing, quit LOOKING for things to whine about, theres already a generous supply of that in the world dude.
This is terrible, my first post here was not supposed to be like this. Oh well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Razor
Doverdawgs
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Lighten up people...Zemke's obviously not a hate monger, and isn't looking to glorify what the SS squads did. That's a historically accurate name for a squad in a WWII sim, and he chose to use it.
And Az, I'm American and I'm not liberal. I also don't agree with people wanting to limit someone's freedom of speech just because they don't like what they're saying. You don't like it, tough titty, get on with your life...I'm sure you value your freedom of speech just as much as I do, regardless of where you're from, so don't expect someone to give theirs up just to make you "feel better".
It's late...I'm going to bed! Feel free to flame me...should be fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
SOB
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I am a liberal American.
I find the name to be offensive, but tough, thats the nature of Freedom of Speech and I'll live.
I do think that it would be polite and considerate of Zemke to pull the name, but I do not believe that he should be forced to pull the name.
BTW, one of my conservitive friends was watching me play tonight and saw Zemke's squad name. He thought that the name was offensive to comment about without my saying anything (he was a platoon commander of M1A1 Abrams in Germany in the late '80s and early '90s and has studied tank warfare quite a bit). In his opinion the name was insulting and inappropriate. I mention this to point out that this is not a liberal vs. conservitive issue.
Sisu
-Karnak
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I believe that anything goes.
But you will have to face the concequenses.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
I am a liberal American.
I find the name to be offensive, but tough, thats the nature of Freedom of Speech and I'll live.
I do think that it would be polite and considerate of Zemke to pull the name, but I do not believe that he should be forced to pull the name.
BTW, one of my conservitive friends was watching me play tonight and saw Zemke's squad name. He thought that the name was offensive to comment about without my saying anything (he was a platoon commander of M1A1 Abrams in Germany in the late '80s and early '90s and has studied tank warfare quite a bit). In his opinion the name was insulting and inappropriate. I mention this to point out that this is not a liberal vs. conservitive issue.
Sisu
-Karnak
yup
good post
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I am in favor of free speech, however, I find other names such as 'noshit' and a few others just as offensive as Waffen SS, however, where do we draw the line? Once the lines drawn, it can transition from a democracy to a dictatorship real fast without free speech.
My step-father has always flown the Southern battle flag, its his way of saying "I'm a rebel, and I don't conform to your way, I conform to MY way"....now he gets called a racist...is he indeed a racist? Hell no, the furthest thing from it!
I say let people name themselves or squads whatever they like...when they start figuring out that folks like me are ignoring their squad, comments on text buffer..maybe they will get a clue.
"We were having a beach party, everyone showed up in colorful beach attire...then one gentleman showed up in a suit, everyone greeted him, but ignored him after that, he eventually understood that to be part of the party, he must dress for the texture of the party...he left and then came back an hour later in a swim suit..."
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 07-17-2000).]
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Yeesh! What is the purpose of a squad name?
For some it's to be historic..for others it's a joke(ie The New Baby Harp Seals) but for all of us it's to say I'm a part of this group of guys/gals and we are better than you.
So what if they call themselfs something offensive? They have that right just like the rest of us had the right to call ourselfs what ever we wanted.
I don't know the historic value of the name and frankly I don't care..I'm here to play a game and to have fun.
I don't care if you call yourselfs "The guys that think Mighty1 is a big dick" squad. It really doesn't matter.
I'm sorry for all of you who lost family and friends in ANY war but come on look at what type of game you are playing...it's recreating the worst time in our world's history.
I think we need to worry less about what past names meant and worry about what they mean now.
Do the guys that fly in this new squad ACT like the original squad..probably not. Do they spread hate and promote real life violence..probably not.
So what is the harm in using the name?
I'm sure if we really wanted to we could find something wrong with every historically accurate squad in here.
------------------
Mighty1
The New Baby Harp Seals
"Come try to club THIS Seal"
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Here's some more food for thought....
Assuming we get more ground vehicles from HTC, there will probably come the day where we'll be setting up historical re-enactments of famous tank battles, like Kursk. Are we going to keep the historical names of the Russian units present, yet change the names of the Waffen SS units to something generic?
Perhaps a compromise could be...
Historical Waffen SS unit names would only be allowed for historical scenarios, and not for general use in the MA.
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Nothing important really
[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 07-17-2000).]
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Am I wrong, or weren't american bombers ordered to target civilian targets at times during the war?
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Follow-up of nothing important
[This message has been edited by AKSeaWulfe (edited 07-17-2000).]
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Some of you are using freedom of speech in the wrong context. Freedom of Speech, given to us in our Bill of Rights was/is freedom of speech without government intervention. So you could say, for example, President whomever ain't worth diddly without getting hung.
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
Freedom of speech without personal responsibiltiy is BS.
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Apache
~XO~ VMF-323 Death Rattlers
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
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Originally posted by AKSeaWulfe:
I am an american, but I don't place myself in any political party. I'm not an anarchist, but politics simply don't interest me. Perhaps they will later on in life.
With all due respect, Wulf, you just described a majority of German folks with your statement above in 1930, most were not interested in party lines or politics, most wanted to have a 'better life'...by ignoring and not analysing their countries politics at a time of turmoil...well, you have read the results.
Politics: Get involved, or lose your freedoms.
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Geeze, lets all spin our wheels in the big "pollitically correct " mud puddle at once.
Most of these young folk couldnt give you 3 historically accurate accounts on the whole of WW2,, others could, but my point is...
Its a NAME of a squad IN A GAME!!!
They probably like the emblem or saw it on the discovery channel or something. JUST a name means nothing, if they spout hatred, then THATS a problem and should be dealt with accordingly. Hell, my last name used to be Reich,(was changed at ellis island via typo) and I have 2 older brothers, which makes me the 3rd Reich of my family. You gonna ban ME cause of a NAME???!!!Worry about actions, not names. ty AKelfy (Doug)
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Well put AKelfy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Originally posted by Apache:
Freedom of speech without personal responsibiltiy is BS.
I agree...who's he hurting? If someone doesn't like it, they can ignore him, insult him or kill him in the arena.
SOB
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Gents,
I don't personally believe in censorship of any kind regardless of how idiotic someone's point of view is. The ACLU makes sure that every one has the right to their opinion. The ironic thing is that the ACLU was founded by many Jews and other minorities that are targeted by much of the free speech that they fight to protect.
However some of the people have to stop hiding behind the umbrella of free speech and expression. A little reality check for all those people who claim to be part of the "Waffen SS" in the "game" or not. Guess what, you have some issues to deal with buddy. If your screen name is Hitler, you have problems. The fact is that you relate to something in that group weather it is historic or you just like the snappy uniforms. The Nazi party and it's insignia only ever stood for one thing and for the rest of history it will only ever stand for one thing. If you think you can hold a pile of toejam in your hand and call it flowers go right ahead. It's still toejam and it still smells like toejam.
For the record I have NO problem with anyone flying german A/C or tanks. I have read the JG26 war diaries and I know that soldiers have responsabilities. Even the Israeli Air Force flew BF109's early in their history. I have a Volkswagon and I served 4 years in the USAF. It does not conflict as I hold no grudge toward the German people. But if you choose to wear or represent the Nazi point of view in a game or otherwise. Guess what, that's part of who you are.
F4UDOA
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Yes, AKelfy is too good for Aces high, please ban him so he won't shoot me down anymore.
Thanks~!
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Originally posted by SOB:
Well put AKelfy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I agree...who's he hurting? If someone doesn't like it, they can ignore him, insult him or kill him in the arena.
SOB
My point is, free speech isn't the issue. That's a smoke screen & most of ya know it. SOB, you asked the pertinent question. Who is he hurting? Is he hurting anyone at all for that matter? I don't know. Guess we would have to ask those that it truly affects, not just those that have opinions. We just went thru a difficult situation here in SC. African Americans take issue to the Confederate Battle Flag. Kinda stupid to most of the white's (Apache not included), but ask an African American and see the difference. But hey, it's just a FLAG! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Apache
~XO~ VMF-323 Death Rattlers
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
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you have
some issues to deal with buddy
Well D'uh!!!!!!!!!!! Here we are, grown men pretending to be fighter aces and shooting down people on-line from all over the world. Web sites, emails, chats, conventions, squads................
Anyhow, so what's your point?
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Only solution seems to be to totally ban historical squad names.
Well, even that might open a possibility to invent clever names to resemble historical names.
So, squads should be assigned either random large numbers (> 10000) or random PC-checked names by the system. OK, lets drop the name thingy, not everyone will agree that they _are_ PC!
Leave the system as it is now. Arguably many Allied unit names should be banned, too.
As to why there might be squads with historical ground unit names; you must have noticed that there are _vehicles_ in AH now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Excellent thread this... all sorts of spin.
Count the responses - I think democracy has spoken and the name's OK. Get out of that!
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At first I thought this was some attention hungry punk trying to be offensive etc. etc... But I don't think that's the case anymore.
I don't know what the Waffen SS represents to people now... but it's a fact that there was a 1st Waffen SS Panzer Division. We have the Panzer here in Aces High.
The Waffen SS also combat tested and fought with the Ostwind. We are getting that in the next version.
It's a perfectly legitimate name.
We love the tools of war but try to ban the names of the units that used them? Hypocritical?
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Ouch, good points Travis & Nash.
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Apache
~XO~ VMF-323 Death Rattlers
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
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I guess I'm too far to one side of the point of view here. I think the confederate flag is perfectly OK. I don't even have a problem with the KKK marching down main street, as long as they filled out the permits, and are being peaceful. Doesn't matter if they're scumbags, they have the right to do it. As long as their actions don't result in someone truly being hurt.
SOB
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The 5 posts since my previous post were a logical , well thought-out perspective, and I appeciate the input to MY input=)...I DIG seeing the thought processess behind the monicers, its just that I believe, that its like anything else... something may sound cool untill you have actually BEEN there, then IT SUX in real life!!! War movies and cool lookin uniforms rule untill you see someone in one of those "cool uniforms" execute someone without mercy, trial,or option. Allways remember, and never forget, this is a game. And PLEASE limit your excess testosterone to combating acts of blatent hatred and singlemindedness in our communities and schools in real life, and NOT......
because someone chose a name of a combat unit
that USED to exsist 50+ years ago..If we have a problem with a squad name, ASK THEM ABOUT IT EVERY TIME YOU SEE THEM, and see if they are nazi lovers or just young men on an innocent quest for fun...
More than my 2 cents worth (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
AKelfy (Doug)
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Personally I see nothing wrong with offensive names. If you ban one offensive name, then why not ban ANY potentially offensive name? Personally, the squad name "Fat Drunk Bastards" offends me greatly, but I don't let it bother me--because the people who thought up the name weren't trying to be offensive. I certainly don't want to see that name banned because I happen to think it's utterly tasteless.
The Aces High community--with constant flamewars like this one--is what drove me away from this game like a week after I first subscribed to it. This childish whining--which is as prevalant in the game as in these boards--totally ruins the game for me. I went back to Air Warrior, which is definately an inferior game, just to avoid this pointless and destructive mud-slinging. Calling each other "dweeb" and "hacker" is about the worst that happens in AW. Not so here.
If you don't like something, deal with it. Don't squeak and moan and cry loudly so as to upset everyone around you. THAT is offensive to all.
"Waffen SS" won't keep me out of AH. "Fat Drunk Bastards" won't keep me out of AH. A squad named "I raped and tortured 4 niggaz before pissing on a Star of David" would not cause me to avoid AH although I might puke at the thought of seeing it.
This pitiful flaming and arguing and complaining is what will keep me away. Calm down already! It's not real life, its only a game! Sheesh! Play it, don't dictate how others play it.
Ex acount holder "Belanger"
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100!!!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Udie
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101
I also find the name Fat Drunk Bastards utterly offensive, and I personally thing they should boot that bunch of sissies outta the game! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
SOB
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I too find the name 'Fat Drunk Bastards' utterly beyond the pale. Where did it, the community, go wrong? That name offends my sensibilities, my sense of decency and all that is good and just and well dammit those bunch of f#$cking two bit dimestore beeatches can kiss my arse. <kghgkhgeehee>
[This message has been edited by Nash (edited 07-18-2000).]
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Originally posted by ExBelanger:
"Waffen SS" won't keep me out of AH. "Fat Drunk Bastards" won't keep me out of AH. A squad named "I raped and tortured 4 niggaz before pissing on a Star of David"
The FDB is an humourous squad (IMO) with bad taste, I agree.But I've not historic refences of this squad durring WWII they have no commited mass executions ...
But the 1st and 3rd squad are simply the same ! Do you were aware that the SS were
instruct to not take "colored" prisonners ?
If you can keep playing with squad name like that and left AH because of whinning what kind of elastic/variable education have you ?
this thread is not about POLITICALY CORRECT but more about education and respect for the fallen.
Nash
This is not about 1st Waffen SS Panzer Division but more about Waffen SS wich is a generic name and not an historic squad name like JG2 for exemple.
[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 07-18-2000).]
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ExBelanger,
I disagree with your interpretation of this topic discussion. It is in no way a flamewar or mudslinging. This is the community speaking out, pro or con, using the forum in the way in which it was intended.
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Apache
=XO= VMF-323 Death Rattlers
VMF 323 Death Rattlers Web Site (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache)
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I guess where you stand on this issue depends on where you sit.
I'm an American far removed in both time and geography from the horrors of WWII.
Thanks to Warbirds and Aces High, I have dramatically increased my knowledge of World War II.
For example, I was ignorant of the existance of a German unit named Waffen SS until the name became controversial.
I wish that Aces High would be devoted to historical reality, because it is so educational and immersive. I want historical terrain, historical units, historical markings and historical performance models.
Anybody should be able to come into Aces High and say to themselves, "Wow, so this is what is was like!"
The world today has changed so dramatically since WWII that the danger doesn't lie in allowing groups to name themselves after despicable organizations, but in forgetting that these organizations existed.
Somebody has to be the bad guy in any game. Somebody has to be the enemy!
To deface aircraft and sanitize culture from that era is the wrong thing to do, from where I sit.
At the same time, I do have deep respect for the feelings of our dear friends who have personally suffered at the hands of the enemy, whoever that may have been.
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cgunthr.jpg)
332nd Flying Mongrels
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this thread is not about POLITICALY CORRECT but more about education and respect for the fallen.
That depends on your point of view STRAFFO, but lets talk about your point of view. If this thread is about respect for the fallen, why are you trying to make sure we forget about them?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif)
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you want me to forget my own familly ?
NO WAY !
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As I'm not American I don't care of PC that's the problem of the American not mine.PC is roadkill as it disguise the truth under words without real sense!
It has appared somewhere in this thread by someone who has not taken the time to read the whole messages.
I just can't support someone to glorify nazism in any way (incentive or not) that's for me the real point. And I've not reacted against JG2/JG54 or other axis (not nazis) squadron.
Why the hell don't you have choosen the name III./Pz.Rgt."Großdeutschland" for exemple ? I've nothing to say about this squad ...
What I reproach to you is that you have choosen a generic and infamic name!
But don't take it personnal it's not intended to you.And I can live with your squad name the good point is that has provoqued a debate between lot of us.
(sorry for my english I'm a poor French bastard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) )
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Zemke something you should think about:
Follow the three R's: Respect for self, respect for others and responsibility for all your actions.
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JG 2's current cannon magnet
Milo
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My $0.02
To sanitize or otherwise cencur history is to rewrite history for those exposed to the sanitization who do not have the knowledge to question it.
To take that a step further: Those who do not remember history (as it really happened) are condemned to repeat it.
Thus it is in the best interest of humanity that the horrible attrocities of WWII never be cencured, hidden, or otherwise sanitized.
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I am brazilian and sincerely I really try not to care as much as americans do to what is politically correct. But in my opinion we should show more respect to the people who has had such past experiences.
What is in a name? Well, lots of meanings. There´s nothing wrong flying a plane like a BF 109, as long as it has not a swatska. There´s nothing wrong driving a Panzer either. They are both only equipments, machines ... But when you choose a historical name to your squad you´re doing an option for something who has a meaning, no matter what you think. It´s obvious that when you choose this name you certainly feel you are paying a tribute to their history, actions included - bad or not.
>The only solution I can see is to make a
>list of units during ww2 that committed
>horrendus acts and ban the names. That
>should include Russian, German, Japanese,
>US, British and any other country involved.
>We can make a web site and document the
>atrocities.
That´s not a bad idea, Kats. But if nobody wants to do it, we could at least take it seriously when someone points out a real case.
Last but not least, I agree the best way to deal with these things is not to ask hitech to censor it but to discuss it here in a public forum, in which everybody can express their feelings and beliefs, something that will allways enrich our experience. If we can do a honest and free discussion, I am sure that in most cases people will understand these points when they show themselves strong and fair.
fradim
[This message has been edited by fradim (edited 07-18-2000).]
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Well I think this thread has pretty well seperated people for what they really are. I don't think there is any doubt after a quote
like what Exbelanger has to say . A squad named "I raped and tortured 4 niggaz before pissing on a Star of David" would not cause me to avoid AH although I might puke at the thought of seeing it.
And Zemke you speak for yourself, although your lack of anything to say makes me believe that you couldn't express yourself anymore than you have without exposing yourself as A. An Idiot or B. A wanna be Storm Trooper with real issues.
This is not about freedom of expression because there is no expression. It is here to get a reaction and that is what they have done. The answer, ignore them completely including anyone in there squad and offer no other communication during the game or on the Boards. In anycase I hope there is no more confusion about what these individuals are trying to express.
History is what it is. It will not change to glorify the acts of what was really the worlds largest army of thieves and prophetiers in the history of the world. The Nazis Killed so they could steal and have no witnesses. They stole from an entire race of people and many countries along the way. People like that make me sick as do people who trivialize the single greatest conflict between a clear right and wrong the world has ever known. If you still think it is so trivial why don't you go to a veterns group meeting and tell them about your feeling Zemke. See how trivial they feel towards you.
Later
F4UDOA
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Originally posted by F4UDOA:
And Zemke you speak for yourself, although your lack of anything to say makes me believe that you couldn't express yourself anymore than you have without exposing yourself as A. An Idiot or B. A wanna be Storm Trooper with real issues.
Too funny. Other people were defending me so well I seldom felt need to comment.
In anycase I hope there is no more confusion about what these individuals are trying to express.
You mean we are trying to express that WW2 was much more than a nifty backdrop for a flight sim? Ok we are not confused any more. Thanks, ta ta... run along and play now... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
History is what it is.
I didn't know that....... No, really, I didn't... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
If you still think it is so trivial why don't you go to a veterns group meeting and tell them about your feeling Zemke. See how trivial they feel towards you.
Wait I'm confused (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/confused.gif) First you blast me for not commenting, then you imply you know what I "think" ? Your a funny man, what do you think guys should we take him seriously?
Ok I am not trying to start a flame war(another reason I have not been commenting to much on this thread)but I could not resist this once.... So respond if you must, you probably won't get a response from me
Later
F4UDOA[/B]
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Originally posted by straffo:
Why the hell don't you have choosen the name III./Pz.Rgt."Großdeutschland"
Because that is way to much to type...
What I reproach to you is that you have choosen a generic and infamic name!
Well I needed to think of something fast, I have been considering changing it to the "1st or 2nd waffen ss panzer division" (still alot to type, I hate long names) or mebe "Kampfgruppe Peiper"
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You would better to avoid using KG Peiper
read this 1st : http://www.users.skynet.be/bulgecriba/thetrap.html (http://www.users.skynet.be/bulgecriba/thetrap.html)
Sad indeed (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) no prisonners ...
why don't you choose an Heer pzr div ?
[This message has been edited by straffo (edited 07-19-2000).]
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LOL this thread is tooo funny, some kid "bates" the community with his little "game name" and we all fall for it. Well I agree with Apache, just forget it and he will go away like "kids" needing attention he is eating this up.
BigJim
PS You can squelch me again anytime Zempke LOL
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Hi zemke,
i don't know u in real life and i have no reasons to think that youre a bad boy there
but to choose the name "Waffen SS" simply wasn't a good idea.
For many americans that name seem to be ok, but many of the pilots flying against/with you are from europe and for most of these the name "Waffen SS" has a very bad taste.
Italy,poland,greece,jugoslavia, france, netherlands, russia, belgium, tscheholovakia ,to name a few, suffert a lot from the "Waffen SS" units.
In germany + austria the name is banned and the "Waffen SS" is classified as a criminal organization.
Using that name for your squad you hurt the feelings of many players here very badly and it sure takes away a lot of fun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
I don't think you wanted that when you choosed that name.
Please think about it and change that name.
blitz
[This message has been edited by blitz (edited 07-19-2000).]
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I can't wait till there is a Vietnam era sim and I can call my squad the Kmher Rouge FG.
-Westy
(has about this much >< respect for Zemke and his squad.)
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I have a suspicion that this is one of the AGW posters that flamed AH, and is now flying AH, trying to save face by not admitting his true identity (i.e. 'I was wrong about AH'), but yet hates our community for what AH has exposed within the other flight sim communities, a sense of insecurity.
I'll bet you dollars to donuts he is an ex-warbirder that we all know by another name. I seriously doubt that anyone would innocently use Waffen SS in their squad name, and then defend it without knowing how the community would react to it. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~
Panzer Group Afrika~15th Panzer Division~[/i]
Click here for VMF-323 Death Rattlers info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/vmf323inquirer.html)
Click here for VMF-323 Website (http://home.earthlink.net/~bkapache/index.htm)
Click here for 15th Panzer info (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/panzerinquirer.html)
(http://ripsnort60.tripod.com/ripsnort323.gif)
"Dissing me here will get you no where, and your clan of AH'ers can't
help you here pal. You are in my house now, and the maturity level here
sees past your chirade. Don't tread on me buckaroo!
MG(Macboy) July 7th, AGW
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 07-19-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 07-19-2000).]
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Originally posted by Zemke:
Well I needed to think of something fast, I have been considering changing it to the "1st or 2nd waffen ss panzer division" (still alot to type, I hate long names) or mebe "Kampfgruppe Peiper"
Hehe well I gotta hand it to this guy, he almost had me going until this little pearl.
Since he is so obviously out only to stir, I'm quite surprised by his restraint. After all, he could have called his squad simply 'The Heroes of Oradour,' if he wanted something truly historical; perhaps 'Provisional IRA Air Combat Wing' for a more contemporary flavour, or maybe something to 'honour' the Libyan terrorists who blew up the 747 over Lockerbie. Closer to home, perhaps 'Trenchcoat Mafia' would do the trick?
Zemke, if the KG Peiper reference was meant to be some kind of joke, it only confirms the unbelievable bad taste you posess.
Still, I dont believe in censorship. Call your squad anything you please, and experience the result.
Vladd
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Originally posted by straffo:
[Bthe Waffen SS have done lot of horrible think in France Russia ...and it was not some but the whole Waffen SS.
[/B]
I am so sick of this bullshi* i cant take it anymore. You pc salamanders make me sick. You cant bunch all of the Waffen-SS in to one group. Im sorry if you had family members lost to a group less than a quarter of the whole of the SS that were sick murdering bastards. Not every SS Soldier was a fanatical hitlerite wanting onyl to murder everything that moves. the 17th SS Panzergrenadiers never committed one atrocitie and were station in france. You cant say the whole SS was bad, because its a lie. I have the deepest respect for al the honest SS soldiers because they were the bravest best fighters of al the war. I know ill get flamed for being a nazi, and you pc losers can go ahead, but i am NOT a nazi.
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Meine Ehre Heisst Meine Treue
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"...and you pc losers..."
MG!!!!!??????? Back so soon?
-Westy
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"The Lucky Bastard's Club" would be a nice scenario bomber squadron, no?
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Wow. It is alive!
Return of the dead thread, part III (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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To the dear "SS Soldat"
So if you have enough of this , why don't you just leave and go play with other sick guys? I wouldn't mind, realy, never to hear from you and your "Comrades" again.
My best regards
Metronom flyin as Sailor
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Well lets put this in a nutshell......
Censorship BAAAAAAAAAAAAAD!!!!!!!!!!
If you hate this squad this much then make it your liftime goal to hunt them down and kill then thats....... GOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOD!!!!!!!
LLB OUT!!!!!!!!!!
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tell me metronom, whats so wrong about what i said ?? is it bad that i respect people who love their country so much as to die for it, and have no respect for the people who just write them off as murderers ??
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Meine Ehre Heisst Meine Treue
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Oh geez here we go again. I though this thread died weeks ago. Here, I'll put this to rest once and for all.
Why don't we just remove every single German aircraft because it may have been flown by a Nazi.
Then, we'll have to remove the bombers, cause they killed innocents.
Then, we'll need to remove he fighters because they killed someone.
That leaves the C-47. And we'll need to remove it cause a reckless pilot crashed and killed a bunch of guys.
Now all we have is a bunch of guys paying for a look at the scenery. We'll add new planes and call it "Cessna's High, the world only nonviolent combat simulation" Wouldn't that be fun.
What's past is past people, let it be. And let this thread die peacefully.
(texace dons firesuit and holds a whole hog waiting for the flames and lunchtime) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Lt. Col. Aaron "txace-" Giles of the 457th BG
"Fait Accompli"
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'Nutshell" huh... that fits (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) You know why we need government? We fail to govern oursleves. Here's how, in a perfect world this should have gone down:
"Hey Zemeke, Your squad name makes some of us a little unconfortable, you think maybe you could look at changing it please?" This to be followed by a polite explaination of why it offends.
Zemeke:
"Oh, sorry, I didn't mean to offend, I'll see what I can do. Thank you for bringing that to my atention."
(then Zemeke, wanting to find acceptance and friendship in his new hobby would try to find a name that didn't make him a target and trigger 125+ message arguments)
See, that simple! just people governing themselves. But instead we have a perfect example of why we need big opressive governments. It's all about responsability people. Does Zemeke have the right to name his squad Waffen SS? Of course, and I'll gladly lay down my life to preserve that right. But even more important than that right, is the resopnsability of Zemeke to, in the excerise of his right, not be hurtful toward his fellow members of society.
'Cause that's how those rights go away.
This isn't about his rights of free speech, or the Confederate Battle Ensign (the flag of a forgien country when you think about it. so I guess it shouldn't have been flown over a state capital. BTW, that is the only valid arguement for it's removal in my opinion.) or the Waffen SS, or their actons. It all boils down to one person's selfish attitude of not respecting the feelings of his fellows.
wmutt
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wmutt:
Of course, you know that *I* can govern myself. It is *most others* who cannot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Pyro -
Please lock this thread.
Thanks
Sour
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Sour
JG-2 Richthofen (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/sour.jpg)
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Lock it up....
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
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Don't lock it! I love reading text that comes from the anal regions of some people! If it smells like sh*t, and looks like sh*t, then, it must BE Sh*t!
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Or an Allied Opportunist wearing cologne (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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Originally posted by SS Soldat:
tell me metronom, whats so wrong about what i said ?? is it bad that i respect people who love their country so much as to die for it, and have no respect for the people who just write them off as murderers ??
Respect. It is a very great and sensible thing. But to respect someone he must deserve it. Please don't forget who started the war. I respect the German Soldier but not the SS. It isn't the same.It never will be. My Family suffered a lot in the past , 3 members where tortured and shot by the SS because they loved their country. From where i come from the people are still spittin if you mention the SS. They are a symbol, a symbol of the evil. And you must understand that your callsign and from others like you will always offend someone.
So, this is the last time im in this thread.
P.S. About takin out German planes from this Sim. Why? The Airplanes are not to blame. The Machine isn't responsible for its master.
And my apology for my bad english.
Metronom
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<belch!> That's my new take on this...any opinions? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
SOB
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Yes, SOB...<Phffffffffffftttt....> Any questions?
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Originally posted by SS Soldat:
I have the deepest respect for al the honest SS soldiers
HONEST SS Soldiers. And there were special groups created for the sole purpose of killing ie einstatzgruppen, totenkopfverbande etc.... More likely than not your family was hurt by these guys, and these guys were not just regular old soldiers. Most of them were criminals pulled out of penitentiares and given a uniform. They put them behind the lines and said here kill everyone we tell you to. And the soldiers did not start the war, hitler did, and he was a f***ing sick psychotic. They jsut carried out their duties like good soldiers. Not all of them were bad, but yes, some did kill innocents, but what the history books dont tell you, is that some of the times, it was under extentuating circumstances. I am not excusing what they did mind you.
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Meine Ehre Heisst Meine Treue
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Saw a German documentary about the SS a few days ago.
Apparently, the SS troops weren't that well liked amongst Wehrmacht soldiers. Some officers even wrote to Hitler repeatedly calling them a disgrace and whatnot, but got the reply "you cannot win a war with salvation army methods". Normal SS troops also had a high casualty rate compared to the Wehrmacht, especially in the early days.
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StSanta
JG54 "Grünherz"
"If you died a stones throw from your wingie; you did no wrong". - Hangtime
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I think I'll start a squad called the KKK. We won't be the mean KKK who killed people, we'll just be the nice KKK who live peacefully with their neighbors.
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You can in no way compare the Waffen-SS to a bunch of red neck hillbillies who burn crosses and kill black people. Western society has brainwashed people throguh high school history classes in to thinking that all the germans were murderous pigs. The germans were very good and documenting things, and the documents show that not every SS soldier was a bloodthirsty killer.
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Im post #142 I'll be back, to see if I can get us up to 200 before Monday.
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You can in no way compare the Waffen-SS to a bunch of red neck hillbillies who burn crosses and kill black people.
Actually, we can.
Western society has brainwashed people throguh high school history classes in to thinking that all the germans were murderous pigs.
Actually, that's not true. I personally have been taught that the SS were murderous pigs. I don't know that I've ever heard all Germans were in the SS. BTW.. Germany is a part of Western Society too.
The SS and KKK are very similar. The SS was a bit more ideological... but the KKK makes up for it by being just a bit more ignorant.
The germans were very good and documenting things, and the documents show that not every SS soldier was a bloodthirsty killer.
No.. just most of them. Of course.. the few that weren't were noteworthy to the German people.
I've never held a grudge against anyone for being German. I don't know if I could say the same if I found out they were SS.
AKDejaVu
[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 08-12-2000).]
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Das Waffen SS waren blooded Mörder kalt.
Yes I speak a litte Greman too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
I read the Waffen SS were murderers, so what? I know some poeple here lost family to them, but what's past is past, leave it alone. At least we've learned something.
This thrad need to be locked, now.
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Lt. Col. Aaron "txace-" Giles of the 457th BG
"Fait Accompli"
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