Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: miko2d on February 26, 2002, 09:23:46 AM
-
Industrial robots?
We are way behind Japain in that respect. More then half of the industrial robots in the world are used there.
Would replacing the workers in menial jobs with dumb industrial robots be any less controversial from the Unions point of view then moving production abroad or importing the cheaper foreign-made products?
Anyone has an idea why don't we use more robots now?
I suspect that the move of production to Mexico may be a step in that direction - once the plants there become obsolete in a few years and environment standards tighten, the production can be moved back to US to the new plants with much fewer workers.
miko
-
Robots of the World Unite!
:)
My father is an independent blasting and coating consultant for ship builders/owners worldwide. In Japan the majority of sandblasting and application of various coatings are done robotically. He has stated in the past that their yards are the most efficient shipyards he has dealt with.
-
The responsibility of Unions is to protect its workers jobs. A case in point is the Typesetters Union in San Francisco. The Examiner and Chronicle wanted to upgrade from the old fashioned line-o-type machines, which were ancient technology in the late 70s, to the more-modern IBM Selectrics. The problem the Unions had with upgrading the typesetting was the potential loss of jobs.
Management and Labor went back and forth, and may have even had a strike over this issue (sorry, faulty memory. However, they did have a strike around this time.) Eventually Hurst Publishing Corp. was able to phase in newer typesetting technology, and the Union was made happy because workers were retrained or shifted to other duties or they retired.
Modernization costs jobs so most Unions today will lobby for retraining programs for their membership. Unions form a bargaining unit, negotiate a contract with management and work to fulfill that contract. The Courts have clamped down on the "wildcat strike" option so many unions employeed, and Unions realize as much as Management does that strikes are counterproductive.
A union contract will spell out exactly what is expected of its membership. Anything that takes a job away from a Union "brother" is forbidden, and I was chastised once by a shop steward for moving several boxes (That's a warehouseman's job.)
Basically the Union will provide a competent, well trained labor force for Management in exchange for wages, benefits, parking spaces, types of soda pop in the machines, number of toilets, whatever- the Contract is hammered out between the Labor team and the Management team, and job guarantees are ALWAYS an issue.
Unions will resist any modernization that will cost its bargaining unit membership and will negotiate for retraining programs or shifts of bargaining units. That's what they are paid for by the membership to do.
-
Unfortunately, in some circumstances, unions are needed for workers to get a fair deal.
IMO - Also, and more unfortunately, unions are causing the downfall of a lot of companies. This is due to the larger, less effcient and in some cases less skilled (Less skilled workers can slide by because they don't have to do anything but work with the other guys that know what they are doing) workforce.
I had an experience like yours, Elfenwolf, at a once great Military contractor (maker of the 'Patriot' Missle system). Because of the union, a job that I could have finished myself in 15 minutes took over 3 hours to complete.
The Problem: A limit switch (electrical switch activated by a mechanical action of a machine) was not working properly.
The Troubleshooting Process:
T+0: I connected my PC to the PLC and found that a limit switch was not making contact when a conveyor arm went by.
I take out my multi-tool with screw-driver and am about to adjust the switch. A shop steward yells at me and asks what I am doing. I tell him the problem, at which point he proceeds to lecture me that this is a union shop and a union electrician will have to come over and work on things for me.
I tell him I am sorry and that I was unaware of the rules. He says it is ok and goes off to find me an electrician.
T+15: Electrican shows up and asks what the problem is. I explain what I think it is. He tells me to wait while he goes to get his tools.
Waiting for the union electrician to go get his tools so he could fix the limit switch (Of course he could have brought them when he came to go look at the machine, just in case he had to fix something. But he thought it would be better to walk all the way back to the shop to get them)
T+40: Electrician determines the limit switch is working properly and that the switch body must have moved on the bracket. To correct this, he adjusts the switch arm. The machine cycles properly and the Electrician leaves for coffee break.
T+50: The machine stops working again.
T+60: Electrician returns and determines the screws that hold the switch body in place were loose and this allowed the switch to move on the mounting bracket.
I ask him to put the switch back in position and tighten the screws. He tells me it is not his job, and the machinist will have to come do it. :rolleyes:
T+1:15: Machinist shows up and looks at the bracket. Decides he has to go back to the shop and get his tools (Another one that doesn't bring his tools to a trouble call. Did he think we called him for no reason?) :rolleyes:
T+1:25: Machinist returns with his tools. Tightens screws on bracket and then notices that the bracket is not totally square on the machine frame. Further investigation shows that the bracket is bent slightly outward.
I ask him to bend the bracket back to square. He tells me it is not his job, and the millwright will have to come do it. :rolleyes:
T+1:40: Lunch time: Delay 1 hour :mad:
T+2:50: Millwright looks at machine and sees where the bracket is bent. After going back to the shop and determining that he has no spare brackets, he decides to bend the original bracket back into place.
T+3:15: Machine will not operate properly because the adjustment made on the limit switch arm earlier has now made the switch operate too soon, because it is now too far forward now that the bracket has been bent back into the proper position.
I ask him to adjust the limit switch arm. He tells me it is not his job, and the electrician will have to come do it. :rolleyes:
T+3:35: Electrian returns to look at the limit switch. (This time he brought his screw-driver) The electrican adjusts the limit switch arm back to its original position. We test run the machine and it all works again.
T+3:50: I pack up and leave, two hours late for another appointment I had promised to make.
To make matters worse through this entire process, I had to explain to each worker what I thought the problem was and what steps were already taken to determine that. It also seemed that none of them wanted to believe my story and had to have me run several tests so they could see what was happening before they did anything to make an adjustment.
I think it is for situations such as the one above that unions get a bad name. I have seen too many where there is one or two hard workers in a group and the rest just go along for the ride, not really doing much or having much of their own skill.
Unions like that need to go.
-
Heya Midnight,
LOL great story, and the fact it is true makes it all the better. But looking at it from the persprctive of the shop steward, if I saw you weilding a non-issue multi-tool I would beg you to cease all activities concerning said electrical switch, based upon as much for your safety as for preserving the job of some dip=shit electrician who has suffered one too many blasts of 220 to the point he forgets to even bring his Multi-Meter to the show, but so what?
Ineptitude is not limited to the union sector. Ineptitude is universal throughout business, and the only constant is that the bigger the organization the bigger the ineptitude...with Government being the biggest and, thus, the most inept, BTW.
I know of several scenarios even sadder than the one you related, and in each instance the Union (remember though, therte's as many unions as there are flavors of Snapple) was the villan.
Now taking the argument that your job as an electrician, machinist or millwright is protected BY CONTRACT, where is the harm in insuring that the problem is addressed by those trained -and PAID- to respond to the problem? And please, don't insinuate that non union workers are more productive than union workers unless you have documentation attesting to that fact.
For argument's sake let's suppose that EVERY Union worker is a lazy, blood-sucking leach on American society. Let's suppose that every Union is extorting the management of whichever industry they are extorting at the moment, and thay are forcing them to hire all the lazy, greedy Union workers who will sit on their tulips and do absolutely NOTHING on their way to a generous 20 year retirement at 90% of their inflated pay.
What do I say to THAT?? HALLUELAH!!! Damn, I wish I had the negotiating team that got the Union THAT deal, because if I am working for somebody here in America today Organized Labor will do more to protect my rights as a worker than the "good graces" of some non-union corporate entity like Enron will do for me, and that's the bottom line after all.
-
I really, really hate unions but i cant be bothered writing a proper argument or tirade about it. They're like little bands of militia with a different set of laws to the rest of the country.
-
Some of the reasons that you are only allowed to do jobs that fall under your craft scope and you don't do the other crafts job.
1. Professional courtesy: if you do work that falls under another’s jurisdiction then the lines behind who does what becomes blurred and soon different crafts are forced to try to undercut each others wages to get the work. If you are union you are united you don't compete with each other; you compete with non-union workers and other companies.
2. Quality: many people who think they can do a task well are actually just so clueless as to whats involved that they have no idea as to the actual level of their incompetence.
3. Liability: if the product fails and it becomes known that the task was done by someone who was not assigned to it or has not been qualification tested, there is a huge liability issue.
There are other reasons but I’m getting tired and don't feel like getting much farther into it. Some times the rules are a pain and seem very stupid but they are there for a reason.
-
Dumb, thats why people stay dumb and dont become multi skilled. I'm creating a utopia where there are no unions or dumb people. In fact, i'm not sure i'm allowed there myself.
-
My story and my feelings in no way imply that non-union workers are any better by default. There are just as many unskilled workers who are not union.
I am indicating that in a union, you are protected from showing your true lack of skill by the experienced hard workers that are in your group. That, coupled with the labor laws within the union make the un-skilled worker very difficult to fire or get rid of.
-----
Capt. Apathy, you must be in a union, or are pro-union.
At the time of this incident, I had over 4 years experience with automated machinery, industrial electronics and computers and machine tool wiring.
The simple and small problem of the limit switch in NO WAY warranted that 3 different workers, from 3 different trades come to work on it. The idea that a person is only able to work in one very small area of tasks is totally ridiculous.
If I were allowed to work on the switch myself, I could have solved the problem and been done a lot faster than 4 hours.
Why is it that a plumber can put up pipes that are soldered together, but a pipe-fitter is needed if the pipes have threaded ends? WTF is up with that? A pipe is a pipe until you start getting into specialty applications.
-----
Here's another union story...
A pipe-fitting company used to do all of our process gas piping in the plant I worked at. They had very specialized knowledge and tools in order to do the work they did. (Sonic welding, double lined stainless piping)
In any case, the plant across the way (Same company) had a union shop (Our plant did not).
They needed to install the same type of piping for a new machine that was going in. Common sense was to have the experts go over there and install the piping.
The union threw a fit and got their way, the experts were not allowed into the building to work on anything.
A job that the experts would have finished in about 5 weeks was still barely started in 8 weeks. The union people had no specialized skills and experience with making the sonic welds, and many pipe joins had to be re-done due to stress failures in pressure testing.
After 14 weeks and way over budget, the project was completed. When I left the company, there were still problems with failed valves, incorrect flow volumes of critical gasses, etc.
------------
-
Also, I want to make it clear that I am not against unions.
In some places they are very much needed to keep the workers safe and paid well for the jobs they are doing.
It is when they start thinking that THEY own everything around the job-site and thet THEY are the top priority and everyone else can wait for them.
When they are like that, it's like they are spoiled little brats. Don't dare to tell them they did something wrong, it's all the company's fault. Don't dare to ask them to work a few extra minutes into break time, even if the job at hand is critical.
Some unions are like gold-digging women. If you pay them what they want, give them all the benefits they want and let them come and go as they please, they just might put out for you. Then, they sucker you into a deal and as soon as they think they have the right position, they stop putting out and walk off with half your money (Budget for the project)
-
Unions made sense when there was an "Evil Boss Man" exploiting dependent workers.
Well know companies need to show a profit to satisfy investors (stock holders).
The company I last worked for installed automated systems.
We worked at a huge plant that made gypsum board (drywall)
The plant was 300 yards long and it had manable stations that we were replacing so instead of 10 guys per shift to run this part of the plant it would take 2. 3 shifts 30 guys to 6 guys. We made all kind of other upgrades to that plant to eliminate even more excess labor.
This plant was bought out by a larger coporation and prior to these upgrades it was "profitable". However these upgrades ensured its future at a higher profit level and made it more attractive to investors.
Investors aren't just 4 rich guys they are everyday people. The money generated from these types of investments is far greater then simply keeping the plant open to ensure these 30 folks their jobs.
The unions do protect the narrow interests of thier members but at the expense of the nation at a whole.
Companies are forced to move plants oversees. Ofcourse they dont lower the price of the product but it increases profitability and attracts greater investment.
Also the union guys at that drywall plant would steael our tools or hide them and just intefere costing the company money. There interests only extended to the end of their nose.
Anyway the point is most of these large companies are publicly held and the folks who are chosen to run them have to before anything else take that into consideration. Even if that means dismantling and selling off the factory piece by piece to ensure future investment.
-
A brief thought. Safety should be the concern of the company and this should be a strictly enforced law, not an excuse for the union to gather more members(and membership fees).
I'd say the health of the company itself should also be protected. I agree that the workers are important but in this age aren't companies mature enough to do that themselves. If the unions had their way they'd have all companies over a barrel, banging them as hard as possible. How does this help people in the long run? If the company collapses from the heavy union demands or strikes, what happens to all the workers?
On another note, I just found out our leftist Labour party(pro-union) will expel any sitting member who votes against the party line when passing a bill. The right standing party(who i always vote for) allow members to vote with their concience(sp?). I'm really beginning to hate leftist/socialist groups. Oh no! I'm turning into Grunherz!
-
Wotan, "Evil Boss Man?" IBM just got sued in San Francisco for laying off higher paid employees and transfering lower paid ones out to S.F. Enron just ripped off ALL of its workers.
Companies relocate to the biggest scam of all, though- the Free Trade Zones established by the NAFTA accord. Pay workers 50 cents an hour, no ecological concerns, no OSHA concerns, no tarriffs on importing their Made in Mexico goods- toejam, "Evil Boss Man" is alive and well, and living in a Free Trade Zone South of the Rio Grande.
Job safety?? Job safety is a big Union issue, but a bigger issue is job hazards. Black lung disease, chained emergency exits in a chicken processing plant during a fatal fire, biohazard handling- Unfortunately Unions are too busy with the hazards of a workplace to worry about rather a handrail is properly installed on a stairway. That's the OSHA people's job.
About "leftists"- Unions are bipartisan. If they support a canditate it is based upon his voting record on labor issues and nothing else. The fact that they support more Democrats than Republicans is due to the fact that Republicans are anti-Union to a large extent. However, the average Union member is approaching 50 and many are retired military working in civilian jobs on a military base. These guys are NOT leftists.
My support of Unions is based on the erosion of the middle class here in America. Sure, you can always find some slob willing to do the job cheaper because he has an old lady on welfare and he believes the American Dream is coming home to his rented apartment on Friday nights with a 12 pack of beer and an eighth ounce of green bud, but I believe we can all do so much better. I like my neighborhood and I like the fact Union membership makes it possible for so many to enjoy the REAL American dream, which is home ownership, a good education for our kids and job security.
-
I believe unions ARE lefist, more power to the workers, down with the upper/middle class! Sound familiar? Maybe things are different here in Australia but i doubt it. Unions are a part of the Labor party, lots of parliament members are ex-union bosses.
I'd say the American dream thingy is a bit dated isnt it? Once again though, im not American so I dont understand the great American dream thingy. I'd say its better to encourage people to make more of themselves than just buy a house, have kids send them to school. I don't wanna offend anyone so i'm going to shut up about this one.
-
Originally posted by gavor
I believe unions ARE lefist, more power to the workers, down with the upper/middle class! Sound familiar? Maybe things are different here in Australia but i doubt it. Unions are a part of the Labor party, lots of parliament members are ex-union bosses.
I'd say the American dream thingy is a bit dated isnt it? Once again though, im not American so I dont understand the great American dream thingy. I'd say its better to encourage people to make more of themselves than just buy a house, have kids send them to school. I don't wanna offend anyone so i'm going to shut up about this one.
Down with the MIDDLE CLASS?? Gavor, the Unions ARE the middle class!! Well, at least in America, anyway. I'm sorry to note that only the bicycle messengers and fast food workers are organized in Australia. And knowing that your country is run by former fast food union thugs makes me glad you don't have atomic weapons.
Gavor, I have seen your homeland- I watched every episode of "Survivor 2- The Outback"- so I understand you are prone to flash floods and fire storms. Of COURSE you have so much more to do with your life in Australia than I do here in America. Usually you have to run for it! If it's not the most deadly of snakes in the world, of which something like the top 20 are in Australia, it's having your two cities overrun by out of control bands of jackrabbits and kangaroos. At least we in America managed to control our native animal problem, the Buffalo, Wolf and Grizzly Bear. Hey, you dudes are whimpin out to JACKRABBITS!! If Australians were all that tough there wouldn't be a kangaroo left alive.
Of COURSE you can't understand the Great American Dream thingie. You aren't American, bud. My American Dream is to buy a home, raise a family and have a decent career. You're Australian- hell, you can't even get a drink at the local watering hole without fear of getting eaten by a Croc. Your dream is much more primal than mine- I hope to buy a new Taurus next year, you hope a dingo doesn't drag off one of your kids- but if I were in your situation, facing poisonous snakes, crocodiles, hungry dingos and angry rabbits and kangaroos I'd think the American Dream was frivilous too.
-
:)
Depends what middle class means to you. Middle class to me are people with average office jobs who live a normal life of house car family etc. To save arguing lets drop the middle class bit as different people have different interpretations.
We dont have nuclear weapons cos we dont wanna be blamed for destroying everything when some guy with more stars than brains decides to hit the switch cos he's got a nice bunker to hide in, and #*&$ the rest of the world. Besides, the country isnt run by the labor party, its run by the Liberal party(a misnaming as its actually the conservative party.)
The rest of your post im ignoring as a humorous poke at Australia. However, i dont think that dream is 'frivolous' i just don't believe it should be the only thing people want. I want a nice house to live in and a car and kids, but my plans dont stop there. They dont even start there. Those things are a by-product of the more interesting stuff i wanna do. This is a hijack, back to union talk.
-
I'd say the American dream thingy is a bit dated isnt it?
Ya very dated, things like safety and dignity in the work place, a living wage to provide a stable home to raise kids in, maybe even sending 1 or 2 of them to collage if they work hard and help with the costs. How passe.
-
It is to me. The safety etc in the workplace isn't what i meant. Only the house, car bit. A safe and responsible workplace along with a decent wage are a right that should never be taken away.
Stable home and kids etc etc is ALL that people seem to settle for. I'm not coming out and saying its a bad thing, just the ideal that its all you should aspire to. Thats all im challenging.
-
It’s not that it's all you should aspire too, it's that it is the minimum you should settle for.
And as far as people saying unions aren't necessary and how people can have a safe environment and decent wages without them, it's crap. The only reason non-union places have those things is that they have to compete with union companies for employees, also there employees would vote a union in if not treated reasonably fairly, so even if you aren't union, like it or not you benefit from them.
I’ve read the posts above about how the union rules don't work; here’s another point of view.
When I married my wife her step dad had a good union job in manufacturing. He used to always complain about how the union was just taking his dues to support union officers, and how 'they' never did anything for him.
(Actually it really irritates me when union people complain how the union never does anything for them. They are the same ones who never go to meetings or participate in any way. There is no them in union it's us, and if you don't participate or try to guide your union to what you think is right then you're nothing but a whiner, please shut up)
Anyway after almost 30 yr. at his job the company sells to a non-union company. He’s requested to write a letter explaining why he's valuable to his company and why they should continue to provide employment.
So he writes the letter and keeps his job. But they don't want to provide health insurance to so many employees so while they are still working the same man-hours at the plant they are working 6 10-hour days a week per employee to make up for the ones they laid off. He now works 150% of his previous hours and takes home about $35 a week less.
Btw he now really miss's his union.
The thing is that when unions are working well you never notice them you only notice problems and conflicts.
In my trade union craftsmen are generally much more skilled than the non-union. I see many of the guys who we won't dispatch to jobs because they are incompetent working non-union project in the mills where I work.
While we provide a pool of skilled craftsmen who know each other and know each others strengths and weaknesses, most non-union contractors know a few 'craftsmen' and the rest are provided by the known guys FBI (friends, brothers and in-laws)
We (and all the other crafts unions I have knowledge of) allocate a percentage of our dues to provide training to any member who desires it to keep us up to date on new processes and procedures, also about 25 cents an hour goes to pay for training of apprentices.
If a guy is lazy or just plain stupid the odds of him making it through the first 6 months of his apprenticeship is quite slim.
Also the non-union companies have another neat trick I forgot to mention. Most don't provide benefits until you've worked for them for 90 days. So unless you are one of the very small core group, they lay off all employees after 85 days or so, and they cycle their workforce so they hire you back after a couple weeks so you never get benefits or any sort of pension.
In the union our employers pay into OUR health insurance and pension (it's ours we manage it ourselves the company has no say and cant invest it for themselves) payment is based on a per hour rate so if you work for a different employer every month you still have benefits. Many non-union people work full time (overtime all the time) but they go from project to project employer to employer being cycled through the system and never getting befits or any kind of retirement plan. And they can't really take care of their own retirement because their wages are much lower because they are competing with the guy they work next to for the same job.
-
Ok, I've got to chime in
I was totally anti-union up to a year ago. I got a job in the evenings at UPS and had to be a Teamster to get the position. Grumbling under my breath, I became a Teamster.
$420 initiation fee, $33 a month dues....they don't take the $420 all at once (if you wanna pay it all and have it paid for)...they nail you for $25 a week until you pay the Initiation Fee (which is non-refundable after 6 weeks) and THEN, you have to pay any and all back dues you didnt pay while you were paying the initation fee. So with all these great deductions, myself and other new guys were unloading package cars in 80-95 degree weather, high humdity and at the end of the week, we had a $65 paycheck to show for it. Many of the guys who started new with me said to hell with UPS and the Union. $8.50 an hour for back breaking work, dues/initiation deductions just was too much for some of the guys to deal with. I stuck it out.
(Now, I'm 45 pounds lighter)
Anyways, in my case, after I'd been at UPS for several months, my supervisors told me of an upcoming postion they wanted me to apply for. I did. They told me I was a "slam dunk" for this job. And, for several months, I was back patted and told how great I'd fit into this new position. Well, guess what. Human Resources states that the job in question is only for Non Union staff. The Supervisors who made all these great promises vanish, and deny making any such promises. The Union rep tells HR that if I wish to leave to take the job, they have no problem with that, they want to see me suceede whether its Union or Non Union. Nope, they wont. A huge pissing match ensues between the Teamsters, telling UPS they are dicks for lying to me, and UPS putting their hands over their ears and humming loudly "us did what?"
During all of this, I gained a lot of respect for the Union. To date...
1) They have always treated me with respect
2) They have never lied to me
3) They always return my calls promptly
4) They always call me "Sir" on the phone
5) They genuinely care, they called me repeatedly at home when I was injured to make sure all was well.
UPS, on the other hand....
1) Suffers from "too many cooks in the kitchen". 4 Supervisors, all saying different things. Sup 1 says "do this" Sup 2 says "No no, I said do this" Sup 3 says "Ignore Sup 1, to this now or else". And the comedy continues. No organization
2) UPS prides itself it talking to its employees, stating that it wants to buy X amount of new jets, cars, diads (handheld pcs) and such. Meanwhile, we have unloading equipment that is 40 years old, unsafe, people injure themselves badly on these things monthly, it seems. The UPS building itself is a disaster waiting to happen. We have conveyor belts that are so old, they are glazed over like rubber, that have diffulty griping boxes to move them along the line. While UPS dreams of buying more jets to carry more load, they ignore our pleas to fix the broken equipment. Settling, instead, on dealing with injuries and ignoring the issue. After all, a field full of jets gets them more PR/visibility than fixing equipment that moves packages.
From what I see, working at UPS for a year now, the pros to UPS are...
1) Pension potential
2) Health/Dental benfits for part time workers
3) Never ending vaudville of "UPS Management"
The Cons are...
1) Its the most grueling, physical job Ive ever worked. Its pretty intense
2) Low pay. $8.50 an hour. :( The kids up the street at Mickey Dees are making that, as is the kid herding shopping carts.
Like i said, I started out being totally anti-union. But, seeing how they stuck up for me and how quickly management went from my "friends" to "who are you?" educated me quickly.
I know ever union and employer is different. There is always that one slacker who, if it weren't for the Union, would be fired and out of a job. Those types make unions look bad.
Anyways, thats my 2 cents. I just got home from UPS and washed 10 trucks (30 footers...)....I'm tired and need my Ar234 fix ;)
-
I'm at work so you'll have to excuse that this jumps around a bit. I'm writing it in between trying to work.
It sounds to me like we agree that its the minimum to live some sort of comfy life. Everyone should have that same opportunity. Its just that i've gotten the feeling sometimes the American dream was pushed as the be all and end all of life. Get a job, pay taxes, have kids, get a mortgage...and forget the rest of your dreams. Maybe its just a perspective I have from being foreign :).
I think circumstances are a little different here in Australia. Companies here aren't geared to look after people for their whole life. As an example, health insurance isn't company provided. We have strict unfair dismissial laws. As I understand it the situation with people being kicked out after 85 days couldn't happen. These laws are so strict they're thinking about revising them a little. Once employed its almost impossible to fire someone.
Also, we dont have pensions anymore. Part of our wage is paid into a superannuation scheme. Theres no government pension once you retire either. Every worker has to organise his or her own retirement.
On a personal note, i'd rather negotiate my own job conditions and entitlements. In the past if I havent liked where i work or the conditions I work under I've quit. I won't give a bad employer the satisfaction of coming to them and asking for more when they know they're screwing me over. They'll only try it again.
Unions here are more like an organised militia, without the guns. As soon as a company doesnt bow to union demands everyone goes on strike. If someone doesnt they will be intimidated by other union members until they do. Theres a commission at the moment looking into the bullying and intimidation used by one of our unions.
I dont have first hand experience, i've never been in a union. But I do have parents who ran a small business and I know the problems they experienced. The unions were determined to get what they wanted even if it meant sending the business to the wall.
Lastly, I respect everyones opinion on this subject. I'm not telling you you're bad or stupid for joining a union, just that I personally hate them and will never join one. Some careers have workers that need a body to negotiate for them and while the principal is fine, but the reality of how our unions work is not. They're standover men who'll happily grind an industry to a halt if they dont get what they want. Maybe it's different here.
-
In the beginning, there were no unions.
What brought them about?
Do relatively happy, contentented works feel the need for a union?
What is the catalyst that makes them unionize?
It's piss-poor management that causes unions. Mistreatment of employees causes the employees to band together and form unions.
If Management treated the regular workingman the way Management would expect to be treated in a similar situation you'd never see a Union anywhere.
Unfortunately, once you get a Union it means the trust is totally gone and you'll have the Management v Union situation from then on.
Been a few hundred years but new Managers seem to feel the need to reinvent the Union wheel all the time.
The only thing worse than a Union.... is NO Union.
-
Originally posted by Toad
In the beginning, there were no unions.
What brought them about?
Do relatively happy, contentented works feel the need for a union?
What is the catalyst that makes them unionize?
It's piss-poor management that causes unions. Mistreatment of employees causes the employees to band together and form unions.
If Management treated the regular workingman the way Management would expect to be treated in a similar situation you'd never see a Union anywhere.
Unfortunately, once you get a Union it means the trust is totally gone and you'll have the Management v Union situation from then on.
Been a few hundred years but new Managers seem to feel the need to reinvent the Union wheel all the time.
The only thing worse than a Union.... is NO Union.
Well said!
-
well put toad.
btw One thing I forgot to mention in the reasons for not doing another crafts works.
Union jurisdiction over work is negotiated and informed by contracts. In other words the company signs a contract saying they agree to exclusively use members of a the union for certain tasks. the company egrea to this when they sign the contract. for you to do another crafts work violates this contract.
it's like a restraunt who agree's to only sell pepsi and in return gets certain perks or lower prices in exchange. then one day the get an opertunity for a bargain deal on coke. just because it would be better economicly for the company to buy coke instead of pepsi that day doesn't give them valid reason to break their contract.
Companies make exclusive contracts with each other all the time; it's only when they are asked to honor their contracts with workers that they whine about it.
-
Originally posted by Toad
The only thing worse than a Union.... is NO Union.
OK, you came here to repeat the same mantra from your previous thread on unions.
How about the real question I asked here? You argued that firing US union workers to give jobs to mexicans is bad.
How about firing US union workers to replace then with robots? Would you or the unions argue against that? If so, I'd like to hear the arguments from you as you were most vocal in the previous union thread.
miko
-
What actually happens Miko is what happened at GM when they began to use industrial robots.
There's an existing contract that covers who or what will do particular work. When the contract nears the expiration date, negotiations begin. In negotiation, Management and the Union work out a program for replacing human workers with robots. There are/were several methods; retraining of workers, replacement via normal attrition, replacement possibly via enhanced attrition like early retirement programs, etc. I don't know the details about how they did it at GM but I know it got done and continues to get done.
If you're asking if I'm opposed to robots the answer is no. I don't think it's smart to stand in the way of "progress". At the same time, I don't think the human workers should be instantly sacrificed in the name of "progress and efficiency". There is always going to be a "transition period".
That's what negotiations are for and about; working out problems in a mutually agreeable way.
-
Unions cannot do anything more for an employee than management can. The trouble is that too many Managers never seem to realize this. Any company that is strapped with a union work force probably deserves it.
-
Originally posted by midnight Target
Unions cannot do anything more for an employee than management can. The trouble is that too many Managers never seem to realize this. Any company that is strapped with a union work force probably deserves it.
Welcome to UPS ;-)
-
"Of COURSE you can't understand the Great American Dream thingie. You aren't American, bud. My American Dream is to buy a home, raise a family and have a decent career."
Good grief! Is this what the younger generation believes the "American Dream" has become?
If so, how far we have fallen!
A man who dropped out of school in the 6th grade to work in the fields full time, (dawn to dark was the work day) decided there had to be something better. He jumped a freight west and there learned a new trade.
After learning, he got married and began to build his own business, his wife was his secretary as he did not write well and could barely read. As the years went buy he learned to read and write and whatever else he needed to know. He started a number of satellite businesses and became a millionaire before he was 50.
A different man got off the boat in New York, couldn't speak english, and had no money. In 11 short years he was a millionaire and a recognized star world wide. (Arnie the Barbarian still can't speak english according to the "educated" :) )
These are stories of the "American Dream" ... house, wife, 2.3 children, dog and two cars in the garage are just Joe 6 packs' delusion.
Just my opinion ... I could be wrong.
And has nothing whatsoever to do with the Union. :D
-
Well, what do YOU think the American Dream is? Nice post, Mister Bill, but the American Dream has been amended from taking over the world through the free enterprise system to economic survival in the onslaught of the attacks on the Middle Class. Sorry, bud, but I'm bellybutton deep in alligators. It's hard for me to remember my original purpose was to drain the swamp.