Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: pbirmingham on March 01, 2002, 12:19:26 AM
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I was at Border's today, looking through one of those Osprey books on the PzKW IV that shows you everything, EVEN PARTS OF THE COMMANDER'S ANATOMY THAT SHOULD FOREVER REMAIN PRIVATE, and there were no straps or seatbelts.
I suspect that a panzer that hit a tree at any apperciable velocity, would find its crew severely fux0red.
So, I dispute any claim that, on the face of it, it is absurd to have tanks blow up when they hit trees. It is likely if a tank hit a tree at speed, most of its crew would be, as they say, hors de combat, if not dead outright.
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at 25mph? ooh those must be mined then.
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LOL, I run over tree's in my '72 Chevy (7" lift and homemade 3" tube bumper) regularly. Ususally try to keep the size about 6" diameter or under, but it will easily run over bigger trees with a little speed!
By the way, it don't go boom when I do it. Neither should our GV's. Sudden stoppage sure, but not boom.
Also, I'm not usually wearing my seat belt (unless it's serious 4X4'in). Tree's aren't brick walls you know.
ts
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Originally posted by Glasses
at 25mph? ooh those must be mined then.
Think of it this way:
When the tank hits the tree, it stops, and you keep going at 25 MPH.
25 MPH equals 11 m/s. This is how fast you'd be going after a fall of 6.37 meters, or roughly 21 feet.
I don't think it is a ridiculous notion to say that if you fell 21 feet onto whatever would be in front of you in a tank, you would likely be hurt very badly.
Planes blow up in AH when the pilot dies -- shouldn't tanks blow up when critical crew members die?
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Originally posted by tshred
LOL, I run over tree's in my '72 Chevy (7" lift and homemade 3" tube bumper) regularly. Ususally try to keep the size about 6" diameter or under, but it will easily run over bigger trees with a little speed!
By the way, it don't go boom when I do it. Neither should our GV's. Sudden stoppage sure, but not boom.
Also, I'm not usually wearing my seat belt (unless it's serious 4X4'in). Tree's aren't brick walls you know.
ts
How fast are we talking here? I don't doubt that you can hit trees, but hitting trees *fast* would be dangerous, I think. Granted, most of my driving involves *avoiding* trees, so what do I know, eh?
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Yes m8 but also position manners inside a tank these people are not floating around inside a tank or sitting upright as we are in our cars if you hit a tree at 25 MPH the guys inside the tank might be shaken but defenetly not dead it's a tank it won't absorb the main blunt the tree will but the tank and its contens won't.
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I doubt trees, except VERY big ones (and then, not sure) would have any effect over a 26 ton steel vehicle...
I don't have any data to back my doubts, but It's hard for me to see how a tree would make a tank stop, instead of being tore off, or cracked.
Cheers,
Pepe
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I cant believe we are actually debating this.
Take a 60 ton tank. Drive it at 30 mph. What is the kinetic energy of said tank?
Take a tree. Put it in the way of said tank. How big do you think that tree must be to stop the tank dead in its tracks?
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Panzer + Tree = no more tree.
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Haven't anyone seen wartime documents of panzers?
They eat trees for lunch, they just drive over them and the trees fall under.
Hitting a full sized tree at full speed however should at least shake the panzer, maybe even create a little damage.
There are some big-ass trees you know :)
At any rate the panzer should not die from the collision though.
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In worst case running over tree would cause thrown off track and immobilization.
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I can see some people have problems believing trees and hedges can stop tanks.
They should read up a bit on the Allied experience post D Day in the Boccage region.
All sorts of modifications were tried, from merely ramming the hedgerows at full speed, to welding giant hedging shears and clippers to the front of the tanks.
All failed.
Now, in gaming terms; which, longterm, gives the least frustration?
A clear and present danger :
(tree = boom);
or a hazy and undefined annoyance:
(land scape features = stuck tank, and you can't get out to see why)
Having said that, it would be nice to see some open treeless plains for the tank armadas to play on, but then boy, wouldn't the Tiffs and Shturmis have fun then......
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Now what's the difference between a tree and bocage agaion...hmmm
The analogy is about as good as comparing a tree with a large boulder.
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A panzer, that can be killed by hispanos,
MUST explode by touching a tree.:D
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Long time ago I made toothpicks from a telephone pole with a Datsun 180B 2D HT SSS in a side slide in a rain. Even that lightweight rise-burner was drivable after that crash :D
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One of my hobbies while growing up in Alaska was buying cheap junk cars and beating the crap out of them. I typically paid between $20 and $100 per ride and bought at least 20 of them for the sole purpose of trashing them. Most of the time my friends and I would use them for jumpers, but we would also ram things, usually trees, they are so plentiful in Alaska. I can assure you, from personal experience, that even a little 2000# VW bug, Datsun, Toyota or crap Fiat can take out a surprisingly large tree, or even a good size stand of 15' to 20' trees. Even at speeds of 20 to 45 mph, drivers and passengers survive quite well and the cars usually keep on ticking. We never chose trees big enough to stop a car, but still it was surprising how big of a tree a car could knock down. A 5000# Cadillac seems to carry enough energy to kill trees beyond what we were willing to dare. I can recall preparing myself for a hell of a violent jolt, that would only result in a thud and perhaps broken windshield.
I have also had the opportunity to "play" with a medium size bulldozer. They certainly don't go as fast as cars, or even a panzer, but they sure can knock over a big-assed tree without even slowing down.
So back to the original statement: Panzer + Tree = Boom...?
Perhaps, if it's a really big tree and the panzer (or other GV) is really moving.
The smaller trees in AH should behave as a "bump" IMO. A car could probably take them out.
The bigger trees (the palm and the big dark leafy ones) probably would stop any GV in AH. The trunks appear to be at least 3 or 4 feet in diameter. Would they cause a GV to explode, or kill the crew? I doubt it.
IMHO,
I would think GVs in AH should be able to bump into anything at 15 mph without damage.
Hitting a big tree or building at 15 to 24 mph should disable the driving ability of the GV.
Hitting a big tree or building at 25+ mph, perhaps could kill the GV/crew.
eskimo
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Uncle Sam used to pay me to drive Tanks over trees. Granted my tanks were twice as heavy as those in WW2, but trees DON'T kill tanks, period.
During M1 driver training, the tank in front of me had some trouble and the lane was too small for us to go around it. My Tank Commander instructed me to turn left 90 degrees and go forward. I looked left and saw nothing but forest, but my TC assured me there would be no problem making a path through the trees. There wasn't. Trees DON'T kill tanks, and they DON'T kill tank Crewmen as long as the crewmen have the sense to hang on.
Fix it.
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Originally posted by ZOSO
Uncle Sam used to pay me to drive Tanks over trees. Granted my tanks were twice as heavy as those in WW2, but trees DON'T kill tanks, period.
During M1 driver training, the tank in front of me had some trouble and the lane was too small for us to go around it. My Tank Commander instructed me to turn left 90 degrees and go forward. I looked left and saw nothing but forest, but my TC assured me there would be no problem making a path through the trees. There wasn't. Trees DON'T kill tanks, and they DON'T kill tank Crewmen as long as the crewmen have the sense to hang on.
Fix it.
Now there's and expert opinion!
Thanks for chiming in ZOSO, you've been there!
eskimo
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If you know it is going to go BOOM, best advice is don't touch the tree with the GV.
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Originally posted by pbirmingham
Think of it this way:
When the tank hits the tree, it stops, and you keep going at 25 MPH.
Actually, the tree bends and breaks, slowing you only a little. I've hit trees in tanks before (granted, they are a lot bigger than the Pnz IV) but unless it's a really big tree, you barely notice.
HaMmeR
www.netAces.org - Tactics, Plane Data, and More! (http://www.netaces.org)
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Originally posted by xHaMmeRx
Actually, the tree bends and breaks, slowing you only a little. I've hit trees in tanks before (granted, they are a lot bigger than the Pnz IV) but unless it's a really big tree, you barely notice.
HaMmeR
www.netAces.org - Tactics, Plane Data, and More! (http://www.netaces.org)
Well, we've had two tank drivers say it doesn't work the way I thought it did, so that pretty much settles it. I defer to the experience of those who've been there.
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it would have to be one big-ass tree to hurt a tank. Even a WWII tank. Like maybe redwoods, but I've nothing like a redwood in the AH arena's.
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Theme music for GV'ers....
"George of the Jungle"
Watch out for that tree!!!!
There are lots of problems w/ GV's. They'll be fixed sometime soon...I hope.
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Seems to me when I ran a 'dozer the summers between my soph and senior years in college, that when ever I ran over a tree it buckled very quickly and without dignity under the combined weight of 21 tons. While never having driven a tank, the dozer I operated hardly jolted on trees under 12" in diameter, and noticeably "bumped" when they were over that. I have never driven a tank, but the theory between the operation of the two is the same, and I feel the added 5 tons of the Pz-IVh would do nothing but help it.
SAY NO TO TREE VS. TANK EXPLOSIONS!!!!
:D
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but the trees are pretty... save the rainforest!!! :D
-Raus
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At worst what I think could happen is the tank would flip and the tank would be disabled but its crew not killed ro you'd be stuck like it has been said before.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
One of my hobbies while growing up in Alaska was buying cheap junk cars and beating the crap out of them. I typically paid between $20 and $100 per ride and bought at least 20 of them for the sole purpose of trashing them. Most of the time my friends and I would use them for jumpers, but we would also ram things, usually trees, they are so plentiful in Alaska. I can assure you, from personal experience, that even a little 2000# VW bug, Datsun, Toyota or crap Fiat can take out a surprisingly large tree, or even a good size stand of 15' to 20' trees. Even at speeds of 20 to 45 mph, drivers and passengers survive quite well and the cars usually keep on ticking. We never chose trees big enough to stop a car, but still it was surprising how big of a tree a car could knock down. A 5000# Cadillac seems to carry enough energy to kill trees beyond what we were willing to dare. I can recall preparing myself for a hell of a violent jolt, that would only result in a thud and perhaps broken windshield.
I have also had the opportunity to "play" with a medium size bulldozer. They certainly don't go as fast as cars, or even a panzer, but they sure can knock over a big-assed tree without even slowing down.
So back to the original statement: Panzer + Tree = Boom...?
Perhaps, if it's a really big tree and the panzer (or other GV) is really moving.
The smaller trees in AH should behave as a "bump" IMO. A car could probably take them out.
The bigger trees (the palm and the big dark leafy ones) probably would stop any GV in AH. The trunks appear to be at least 3 or 4 feet in diameter. Would they cause a GV to explode, or kill the crew? I doubt it.
IMHO,
I would think GVs in AH should be able to bump into anything at 15 mph without damage.
Hitting a big tree or building at 15 to 24 mph should disable the driving ability of the GV.
Hitting a big tree or building at 25+ mph, perhaps could kill the GV/crew.
eskimo
why do i see the words 'Jack Ass'??
Revs chainsaw up @ BS80tx
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Bendover,
Is this a tree hugger comment?
I've been to England.
Have you been to Alaska?
Any idea how many trees are in Alaska?
Ay Idea how big Alaska is?
In many places, trees are just big weeds.
Anyway, yes, I am a love muffin.
eskimo
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i'm on about the MTV program 'Jack Ass', where a bunch of crazy arse Americans do stupid stuff, very funny thou, guess its the american version of slap stick:cool:
and no, i'm not a tree hugger
and i haven't yet been to Alaska, btw, you haven't happened to see Artlaw wondering about the woods have you?
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Oh that Jack Ass,
I love that show, only have seen it twice I think.
My youth basically was a Jack bellybutton marathon, I really should be dead by now several times over, hehe.
BTW, the best car jump I ever made was in Britain, in the Lake District. My sister and I had a little Ford rental car on a one-lane road. There was a place where the roads actually hit 30 degrees, and signs noting it. Ever been there? Anyway, I found a great downhill/level/downhill and you could see for miles to make sure that there was no traffic (like 1 car an hour in December). We sailed that little Fiesta off the level part and landed way the hell down on the 30 degree slope. Destroyed the entire underside of the car. Muffler, shock struts, floor pan, oil pan, basically everything on the bottom of the car was mashed and bent. Dang thing still drove but was totally screwed up, hehe.
I measured one typical jump that I made in Alaska once, 65 feet.
That was a piddly Girl-Scout jump compared to that one in the Lake District. It must have been several times as long.
Now I get my thrills pretending to crash planes on a computer, LOL.
eskimo
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hehe, i live near the lake district, never been thou, or have i.....
but there is one of those slope-level-slope things near me, old rail way crossing, but you'll have a hard time jumping down it cos its narrow, and has parked cars all along (pub, scrap yard, and some business)
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Even a WWII tank
Tiger 63 tons
Königstiger 77 tons
Jagdtiger 79 tons
Ferdinand/Elephant 78 tons
M1A2 Abrams 68 tons
T-90 55 tons