Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Kweassa on March 01, 2002, 04:20:05 AM
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I hear people mentioning the FMs have been changed since
AH 1.04 or something. I myself started AH when it was 1.05,
and have no idea what it was like before.
What was so different about prer-1.04 Flight Models?
Would you guys consider current models better, or the older
flight models better? And why??
Really curious.. :confused:
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As an example,
In that old version, the N1K2/Spits etc were excelent turners, but only average zoomers.
After that version these planes became what they are now.
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I loved old FMs.
N1K2 was not so uber turner.
Spit9 too I think.
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Loved old version aswell, newer version more realistic in some aspects but think that some planes have definatly been porked.
E retation in 1.03 was much less.
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The P-47 was like a chariot of the Gods'. A dog fighters dream at any alt. And the P-38 was uber and never slowed down... at all!
Westy
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The P-38 was only porked for the first week or so of its release, then a patch fixed it.
The overall FM for all planes pre 1.04 had dramatically less E retention. I liked it much better, even spits would run out of E after a few tight turns. Everyone says the new FM is more realistic, I'll take their word for it. There's no going back now, even if it was proven that planes now have too much E retention, half the players would leave.
ra
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But, what exactly was changed to have a so tremendous impact on some aircrafts handling?
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What I want to know aswell Mando, it wasn't a slight improvement in E retation, it was a leap as if you compare a Fokker Eindecker with a 109.
(almost anyway)
Remember when I was flying 1.03 near the 1.04 release, Hitech was in and tested the new FM, flying a P38.
I dind't know at the time it was him so I zoomed up ater an attack on him, in 109 G10 which was my main ride back then, he zoomed up after me and although I had FAR more speed he caught me (1.03 for me 1.04 for him) just when he was about to fire (he was stalling too) 300 on my 6, he blew up, and there was Harppa and his G2 :D
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Rudder reaction from rudder input was about 5 fold in pre-V1.04.
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Hey !
I remember that !
There was our good old friend Ibreh as well. III/JG5 was quite new then, we were only 3 of us flying .
Oh well, changing from 1.03 to 1.04 reduced our numbers to 2 :-(
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/harri.j.niemi/HarpDog.gif)
Harppa
XO
Livestock Liberation Front
-or whatever...
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:(
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It was a LW lovers dream.. every plane turned within a second or so of every other plane. Planes that climbed or accelerated well were best. A low plane could not evade from a B&Z attack. When i flew it, everyone just kinda circled at alt waiting for a plane to come along that was lower or for someone to lose a little e in a fight so that they could then bounce em. Very little acm... all "tactics"
lazs
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Well you couldn't scissor or make two turns without hitting the stall (from what I remember). Now dogfights are much better in that you can maneuver without losing too much speed.
Also, gravity was at 2x what was normal which changed my gunnery all to hell for a month or so when they changed flight models.
I like it much better now.
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The Tiffy was a right squeak to fly when it first came out, especially trying to land the damned thing.... you'd be on approach and if you weren't at the exact right speed you'd flip it over... boom! :)
In general pre-1.04 was much harder, most, if not all, the planes were harder to fly and stall horns a plenty was a common thing. Either that or the joystick I was using at the time was just far too crap! lol
Regards
Nexx
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Does anyone have the actual .exe files for the original versions of AH? I know someone posted a long time ago, but wanted to get my hands on some of those. My email is DaLadyzMon@aol.com, if anyone is willing to send me those. Thanks!
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That FM had very low E-retention, that was about it I think. There was no combat trim either.
Your plane could be going 450 mph and with a mere 45 degree turn without pulling hard the plane would slow down to about 200mph.
What was REALLY good about that FM was that the planes had real torque issues. For example, in the F4U, it was almost IMPOSSIBLE to finish the top portion of the loop unless you chopped down the throttle to about half... otherwise the torque would spin you out in a snap. Now? Now you can be at 100mph nose up in that thing with full WEP on and just feel a slight pull to the side. The spit was an incredible turner (mainly because almost every fight ended up slow and turning), but its torque wouldnt let it stallfight at the 95mph speeds it can fight at now. P-38 would dive and zoom great, but if you even dared turn or got yourself low and slow, you were screwed..just like the Jug and P-51.
The ONLY thing I miss from that FM is that Torque. I dont believe its the CTrim that took the torque away, I can take off with a non-trimmed (all tabs centered) F4U and do a loop with full wep on making the top part of the loop at 100mph without getting into a really nasty spin.
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I had every single version and little update and patch but all disapiered in Hard drive crash :(
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What was it like?
It was better.
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it was the time where no fighter could fly a sustained turn with more than 2G...
The P38 introduction.... i ll never forget it :)
niklas
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Originally posted by Pongo
What was it like?
It was better.
I disagree. I think that not being able to do more than two evasives without the stall horn blaring in your ear was not better. As with any version it has a bit of a learning curve to it when they make big changes .. now I'm so used to this FM that I prefer it over the old one.
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Originally posted by DaLadyzMon
Does anyone have the actual .exe files for the original versions of AH? I know someone posted a long time ago, but wanted to get my hands on some of those. My email is DaLadyzMon@aol.com, if anyone is willing to send me those. Thanks!
I have version 0.49 onwards still on my hard drive. I did have some earlier releases but they seem to have been deleted.
Regards
Nexx
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I liked the pre 1.04 FM better, as I think it was better suited to fighting over the internet.
F.
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pongo and furious are right it was better.
I dont recall losing 200mph in a 45 degree turn though. the 205 was the toejame then...........
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Originally posted by Furious
I liked the pre 1.04 FM better, as I think it was better suited to fighting over the internet.
can you explain? I am not asking this to start and argument, but I want to know what you mean by better for internet fighting.
I honestly don't remember much of the old FM except you could not evade worth a damn. Once you tried turning you stalled after about 11/2 turns. I don't remember being able to scissor like you can now either.
The way it is now a fight can last for a lot longer and you can be much more aggresive in your maneuvering without fear of losing control. I also remember much higher fights than this model (which is not a bad thing about the old way).
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Planes pre-1.04 had too much induced drag when pulling g's. This was proven by flight test data as well as engineering analysis. Some of our better community scientists and historians made a very good case for the change. HTC listened, evaluated their research and their mathematical model, and made the fix.
I have to admit I was against it at first because I was under the common delusion that harder is more realistic. But the evidence just kept piling up that something was wrong with the game, and I realized that my preconcieved notions were wrong. The FM change clearly improved historical accuracy, and that is always a change for the better.
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Skernsk,
Not to start a whole big fight, but I "feel" that the 1.03 flight model kept folks honest within the context of an internet connection based game. The direction changes were slower and it "seemed" to be smoother.
I "think" the fights last longer now because outlandish manuevers, that the internet can't keep up with, have little or no effect on the users plane. And because the internet can't keep up, the normal clues as to direction of flight and change of direction are gone.
How many times have you seen a spit just floating in space in front of you? You know it has pulled some high G manuever,but you have no idea what it was and you won't for a second or two. Now he is into his second manuever and you haven't begun to counter the first.
The pre 1.04 model exacted a greater price on the plane for that manuever, which I "believe" lessened the delay of the internet's impact on the game. (Is that a comprehensible sentence?)
...or perhaps its just misplaced nostalgia. I do, however, really miss all that tourqe. It was a freaking accomplishment to get a F4U in the air and back down safely. Hell, I used to have fly the 109g10 off the bases with cliffs to get it airborne. After 1.04 it all seemed so simple. I guess you can put in the camp of "screw realism" on this issue; I liked it more challenging.
F.
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IMHO Pre-1.04 skill just wasn't as important in the fights. Because the planes bled energy so rapidly it was much easier to use a superior energy state to kill an enemy. It was much harder to get out an attackers way, much less turn the tables on them. Pre-1.04 AH was easier if you only accepted fights when you had an advantage. It was much harder if accepted fights on all terms.
Hooligan
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It was more fun to dogfight before. Less frame rate dependent. Gunfire was more predictible. I dont know what is more realistic but I enjoyed the game more then. You could actually force the energy out of the bad guy before. With some bad guys its nearly imposible now.
More skill to fly now..I think not. It still comes down to accuracy and fire avoidance. Accuracy I have never really gotten the hang of since. Fire avoidance has changed from a desparate move or two befor you paid the price to endless out of plane manuvers and bobbing bad guys...
Like I said, I have no idea what is realistic. Just what I like.
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Pre-1.04 the A6M couldn't break turn its way out of a paper bag. This will tell you all you need to know about the Spitfire's ability to not break turn out of a paper bag.
Because the turners couldn't hope to evade the BnZers it made the BnZers very proud of their K/D ratios. It fed into their preconcieved notions of how easy it was to kill Spits 'n Zeros.
The fact is that it took disipline and teamwork to kill the turners in reality. Disipline not to be suckered into a turn fight and teamwork to setup the shot.
In pre-1.04 AH it just took not being a horid shot. A good shot would get the turner nearly every time. There was no danger of being suckered into a turn fight because there was no way for him to turn out of your way more than 2-3 times and hence no inclination to try to pull your nose over him to lead a shot, accidendily bleeding E.
Pre-1.04 was a cakewalk if you flew fast BnZ aircraft, it was torture if you liked things like the A6M5b.
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I kind of miss the pre 1.04 typhoon .
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CC Karnak, thats why I didnt like it at first. But the Torque man.. the torque! It was THERE. Now that someone said about landing and taking off the F4u.. I actually had to get TORQUE (the pilot) to show me how the fek to take off in that thing. I was ramming the hangars and flipping over all the time. And in dogfights.. you were more afraid of your own engine than of the con attacking you :) I loved it.
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Don't agree Karnak, I often held up a gang of 3 sometimes 4 B&Z in the spit 5, simply making hard turns, easier now, yes, impossible back then? No, harder yes.
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if someone was above you in any plane you were dead if he was a decent pilot. Everyone knwe this and the whole game was simply everyone keeping their distance till they could get an advantage. It was a LW pilots dream and every bit as phony as Hans-Joachim Marseille's kill record.
lazs
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Ladies and gentlemen....
The lazhole has opened !
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Geeeez Laz, I've always known you were stupid but this is really takes the price.
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I seem to remember hitting con's at D2.0 or so in B17 pre 1.04,i'm glad this is no longer the case :)
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Only hit them at 1.5 now :)
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Hmm.. according to all these helpful info, current FMs seem more
reasonable, I guess.
But what interests me is the 'torque' part.
I think I also heard someone mentioning there was no combat trim then. Could it be the torque is less noticed because of existing combat trims?
I remember some dufus keep mentioning the torque forces were all wrong in this game, and I had to point it out that with combat trim turned off and all trims neutral, the planes are influenced by torque realistically. The guy obviously didn't see that his plane was in fact under automatic trim..
Could it be the case now?
ps) but still, after testing zooming vertically with N1K2s with combat trims off.. I say it's still too less of a torque :)
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Kweassa the torque on the F4,as mentioned above was really nasty and cool :),there was no way you could throw the throttle around without getting some really serious feedback,i really enjoyed it,i wonder did it get changed when the carriers came out,or after that,i can't quite remember.
rgr wilbus,but only if they come dead 6 on me
Just my 2c (maybe that should be 7 cents,dern that exchange rate)
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You should see 0.33 version takeoff torque !
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With a bit of hunting on my part I could prolly find and send ya a copy of V1.04 so you could see for yourself.
I know I've got every version from beta up on CDrom, it's just a matter of hunting thru em all :)
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wilbus... just be glad they don't model the thirty calibers after Hans-Joachim Marseille guns...
lazs
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Check General Discussion forum, posted links to 049 and 1.00
Nexx