Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Widewing on March 01, 2002, 12:10:15 PM
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I have been privy to a painstaking investigation into the crash death of McGuire, a brief synopsis of which I received today. Here's an edited excerpt.
"With regard to our continuing investigation into the crash that killed Major Thomas B. McGuire, I thought you might be interested to know that from the evidence we've gathered so far, it appears that the crash was caused by one of the engines failing to respond when McGuire increased his throttle settings when his plane began to shudder as it neared the stall speed. As you probably already know, if an engine on a P-38 were to, for some reason fail or not supply normal power while the plane is at or near the stall speed, then the plane will snap roll to an inverted position as it was reported happened to Major McGuire. The two surviving witnesses stated that McGuire had reduced throttle in order to make a tighter turn to gain the angle on the Japanese plain that was attacking Weaver, and that he increased throttle as the plane shuddered near the stall speed, and at that point, the plane instantly rolled inverted and crashed."
One of the consistant dangers associtiated with WWII aircraft engines relates to the sudden application of full throttle. It was not uncommon for an engine to briefly "flood" and stumble. If you should be below "minimum single engine speed in the P-38, and suddenly apply full power, you risk that stumble, and the result will be a snap roll, stall and spin.
My regards,
Widewing
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Why would it take so long to discover this? If it was not part of the after-action report, I can't see how an investigation can discover what McGuire was doing with his throttles 60 years later.
ra
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Errrr...as was stated above. how did they reach this conculsion?
xBAT
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how do they know the eng wasn't shot out? sounds like more a guess then anything
I've read all different things about this from him augering to getting shot down.
I doudt a pilot in a ac could know what another pilot was doing with his throttle.
Anway weren't 2 38s lost on that flight out of 4 vrs 1 ki-84?
2 others ran home........
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wasn't those 3 others newcomers?
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Lets see. What went wrong.
1. He was at or near stall speed in a P-38.
2. He was trying to turn with a Japanese fighter.
3. (not mentioned in the above post) HE DID NOT JETTISON HIS DROP TANKS!
In every instance where I've read about his death, this is pointed to as the MAJOR contributing factor to the crash. Speculation is that he didn't want to waste the gas in the hopes of finding more enemy planes during the mission.
Ouch out
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Here's the story of Mag. McGuires last combat flight. It's interesting how they allude that McGuire's death might have stemmed from his race with Bong to get the most kills before the war ended and his orders not to pickle the drop tanks out of fear of scrubbing the mission early.
The Final Mission
On Jan. 7, 1945, Tommy McGuire led a flight of four planes on an early morning fighter sweep over the Japanese airdrome on Negros Island. Flying McGuire's wing was Capt. Edwin Weaver, whom McGuire had given demerits to when they were cadets in San Antonio. Major Jack Rittmayer and Lt. Douglas Thropp formed the second element. All were veteran combat pilots. The P-38's each carried two 160 gallon external fuel tanks. They spotted a single Jap fighter coming right at them. They departed Marsten Strip around 0615 and leveled off at 10,000 feet, but in the vicinity of Negros the weather forced their descent to 6,000 feet. McGuire led Daddy Flight to an airdrome over Fabrica Strip and made a futile attempt at provoking an enemy response by circling the area for approximately ten minutes. They were now flying at 1,700 feet.
When this effort failed, McGuire proceeded to another airdrome on the western coast of the island. En route, Rittmayer throttled back while breaking through the clouds and became temporarily separated from the rest of the flight. McGuire ordered his pilots to regroup, but learned that Rittmayer's aircraft encountered engine trouble. Thropp, therefore, moved into the number-three position.
Suddenly, Weaver spotted a Japanese fighter heading in their direction, 500 feet below and 1,000 yards ahead. The Ki-43 Oscar, piloted by Warrant Officer Akira Sugimoto, passed below McGuire's P-38 before either pilot could react. Meanwhile, Sergeant Mixunori Fukuda, piloting a Ki-84 Frank, was attempting to land and noticed his comrade's plight. Sugimoto fired into Thropp's aircraft, destroying one of the turbo-chargers. The Lieutenant's first thought was to drop his belly tank, but McGuire anticipated his intention and ordered his pilots to refrain from doing this. It is assumed he issued this order to avoid an early return to Leyte, thereby scrubbing the mission.
Rittmayer, meanwhile, had rejoined the flight and maneuvered his malfunctioning fighter to an advantageous position. He fired into Sugimoto's Oscar, frightening the Warrant Officer off Thropp's tail, but the enemy pilot didn't flee as anticipated. Instead, he turned his fighter tightly and fired several long bursts into Weaver's P-38. Weaver summoned McGuire's assistance.
McGuire's response was immediate as he turned sharply to the left, but something went wrong as his Lightning shuddered and threatened to stall. He sharply increased his turn in an attempt to get a shot at the enemy fighter, but his plane lost momentum and snap-rolled to the left. It was last seen in an inverted position with the nose down about 30-degrees.
Weaver momentarily lost sight of McGuire's fighter, but a second later witnessed an explosion. Sugimoto broke off his attack against Weaver just before McGuire's plane crashed. Rittmayer and Thropp pursued the damaged Oscar as it climbed to the north, and the young Lieutenant managed to deliver one last burst into Sugimoto's aircraft before it crash-landed in the jungle. He died shortly thereafter from six bullet wounds to the chest. Now Sergeant Fukuda arrived on scene and charged head-on at Thropp's P-38, but Weaver recovered from his ordeal in time to fire at the Frank. Rittmayer turned his aircraft to assist, but Fukuda caught the Major in a vulnerable position and fired a burst into his aircraft. The bullets struck the P-38 with telling effect, and it exploded outside the village of Pinanamaan. McGuire had crashed near this area a few minutes earlier.
Thropp's aircraft bellowed smoke from its engine, while Fukuda tried to advance on Weaver. When this failed, Fukuda chased Thropp and discharged a burst from his guns, but the lieutenant escaped to the relative safety of a cloudbank. Weaver sought to locate the Frank, but could not; he and Thropp returned to Dulag about ten minutes apart. They gave their combat reports, which disagreed on several points; and it wasn't until after the war that it became known that two, not just one, Jap planes were involved.
It can be said that McGuire was never shot down by enemy fire, only a split second violation of his rules for combat resulted in his death. Some critics have maintained that McGuire's order to keep the tanks was greedy and foolish; supposedly he wanted to score a 'quick kill' on the lone Japanese plane.
Charles Martin, McGuire's biographer makes a persuasive case for other motivations. McGuire almost certainly ordered his flight to keep their drop tanks so that they could complete their mission. There's not much question that McGuire wanted the three extra kills he needed to surpass Bong's record. But it seems unlikely that he would have been foolish enough to violate his own rules of combat in pursuit of that goal. Far more likely he thought the single Jap fighter would pass by his four Lightnings, and then he could go about his mission.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/mcg_bong2.jpg)
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
Source of article (http://www.acepilots.com/usaaf_mcguire.html)
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Hmmh, so they all were veterans.. I could swear I read somewhere that they were rookies, could be that I mixed it up to some other storie.
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Read my posts "Turning in a 38" before you read this or yall won't understand what I'm talking about. This article is from the same Airpower issue.
There was a exception to this characteristic gentle mushing in a turn. I don't know how many pilots have experienced it, but I have in the P-38G with TWO 160 GALLON auxiliary tanks installed
on the wing center sections.
I'd gone on a flight in one of our P-38s and had flown approximately two hours using gas from the auxiliary tanks. On the way back to the field, two pilots from my flight, flying P-39s tried to pull a surprise bouce of me. After surviving over two years of combat, I naturally saw them coming down on me and broke into them at the proper time, ruining their timing. Then, we turned into each other, meeting headon for the practice combat, but didn't drop the auxiliaries. This was just for fun.
I pulled into a tight vertical turn, then after about half a circle, I felt the 38 stall and begin to mush outward and down. Relaxing the back pressure, I expected the 38 to pick up the turn again. It didn't. Still in an almost vertical bank the elevators became unresponisve and I continued to mush outward and down. Cranking the wheel over, the ailerons took effect and lessened the angle of bank. As soon as the angle of bank changed a few degrees, the elevators took over again and I regained control. It had only stayed unresponisve a few seconds, but in thos few seconds I had lost nearly 500 feet of altitude.
I believe what happened is this - the G forces on the partially
empty tank, forced the gas to the rear of the auxiliary tanks, through the baffles, putting a slight aft center of gravity on the airplane. This caused a slight change in the plane's attitude. The airflow burbled around the tanks and over the wing, blanking out the airflow across the elevators and resulting in a loss of control.
This would probably only happen at a fairly low speed and in a steep turn.
This is my theory only, but there was no mistaking the experience and the sudden loss of altitude. If this had happened at low altitude the aircraft would have mushed into the ground with no way of to stop it, and the results would have been fatal.
I believe this is what happened to Major Thomas B. McGuire over Cebu island on January 7, 1945. McGuire, with 38 confirmed kills, was the second ranking American ace in WW11. At the time his death, he has flown over 240 combat missions and had been in combat for a long time.
This could have happen is drop tanks were near empty and he was at low alts and pulling high Gs. Just some more to chew on :)
Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=
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would it be a bad time to say ....
Bring the KI-84 to Aces High :)
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I think McGuire was fighting Ki-43's.
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Originally posted by ra
I think McGuire was fighting Ki-43's.
Not reading the above posts, are we ? ;)
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theres "speculation" that there were 2 planes. There was a post awhile back in the o'club about this.
I think it was agreed there was 1 ki-84 mis-indentified as a ki-43.
However this story gets told 50 different depending on who you read. I've heard 1 ki-43 that actual got hits on Mcguire to 2 x ki-43 to 1 ki-43 and 1 ki-84 to 2 x ki-84s.
I think the o'club post was by F4UDOA or maybe even widewing.
Do a search its a few months old.
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Thomas B. McGuire, Jr.
His Last Mission
431ST FIGHTER SQUADRON
475TH FIGHTER GROUP
APO 72
9 January 1945
INDIVIDUAL COMBAT REPORT OF CAPTAIN EDWARD R. WEAVER
A. Mission #1-668; 7 January 1945; 431st Ftr Sq; 4 P-38s.
B. Fighter Sweep to Negros Island
C. Time of attack: 0708/I.
Altitude: 1,400 feet
D. At 0620/I, 7 January 1945, I took off as #2 man in a flight led by Major McGuire, of 4 P-38s of the 431st Fighter Squadron. We climbed on course for Fabrica Airdrome on Negros Island leveling off at 10,000 feet. West of Leyte, cloud coverage became 10/10ths at 6,000 feet and remained so to the target area. Over Negros we descended through several layers of stratus clouds breaking out below the overcast at 1,700 feet, 10 miles NE of Fabrica Strip.
We proceeded to that strip arriving at 0700/I and circled it at 1,400 feet for about five minutes. Major McGuire then set course at this attitude for the strips on the western coast of Negros. At about 10/15 miles west of Fabrica I saw a Zeke '52' coming directly towards us at 500 feet below and 1,000 yards ahead. By the time I radioed this information, the leader had seen the enemy, he was directly underneath us. Major McGuire, followed by his flight, made a diving turn to the left for an attack. The Zeke immediately dived to the left also and came around on the tail of #3 man, Lt. Thropp, who had previously been instructed by his element leader, Major Rittmayer, to change positions with him. The enemy was on the inside of this very tight turn at 300 feet and fired at Lt. Thropp. I radioed that the Zeke was directly behind us, and Major Rittmayer, in #4 position, fired a burst sufficient to make the enemy turn even more tightly and lose Lt. Thropp. That put the Zeke in range and inside of me, in #2 position. I radioed major McGuire that I was being attacked and increased my turn, diving slightly. The enemy stayed with me, but I was now inside and a little below my leader. At this time Major McGuire, attempting to get a shot at my attacker, increased his turn tremendously. His plane snap-rolled to the left and stopped in an inverted position with the nose down about 30°. Because of the attitude of my plane, I then lost sight of him momentarily. A second later I saw the explosion and fire of his crash. The Zeke broke off his attack just before Major McGuire's crash, and climbed to the North. It is my opinion that the enemy did not at any time change his attack from me to my leader. I believe his crash was caused by his violent attempt to thwart my attacker, although it is possible that the Major was hit by ground fire, which had now begun.
When the Zeke broke away to the North, I also turned in that direction and joined the remainder of the flight as #3 man. We all chased the enemy and Lt. Thropp, in #1 position, got in a burst just as the Zeke climbed into the overcast. A second later, as we turned to the South, the Zeke reappeared to the East and headed toward us. It got a burst at Lt. Thropp from 1000 o'clock high and I saw a slight amount of smoke come from Lt. Thropp's left engine. Pulling up my nose, I got a short burst from 30° below. Then I followed Major Rittmayer, the #2 man, in a 180° turn to the right to pursue the Zeke, who swung around and again attacked from 1000 o'clock high as we jettisoned our auxiliary fuel tanks. I saw hits on Major Rittmayer and again pulled up my nose turning to the right for a burst from 30° below. The Zeke, also being closed on by Lt. Thropp who was now above, behind and to the left of me, made a diving turn to the right from him and headed North. Lt. Thropp had continued his turn and started home with a bad left engine. The Zeke swung on his tail and fired just as Lt. Thropp entered the overcast. I was too far out of range to fire as the Zeke also climbed into the overcast, breaking off toward the South. I circled the bottom of the overcast for approximately three minutes waiting for the enemy to show himself again. Thinking that he might be above, I climbed through the overcast and looked for him there for a few minutes. Lt. Thropp radioed that he was all right and on his way home. I then gave up the hunt and set course for my base at 0715/I, landing at 0805/I.
EDWIN R. WEAVER
Captain, Air Corps
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WHAT REALLY HAPPENED (http://www.aerothentic.com/articles/McGuire.htm)
"He did not type up or sign any individual combat report. The combat report with his name on it was made up by someone else.
He later saw Weaver's combat report and was surprised to see so much detail in it. He also can not corroborate what Weaver says he was doing after the first engagement with the bogie."
Ah, the controversy and the mists of time. ;)
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that link is what was posted (quoted) exactly in the o'club by someone a month or so ago...........
Thanks for the link..........
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What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire?
A) The Ground
B) Pilot Error
Hooligan
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Originally posted by Toad
WHAT REALLY HAPPENED (http://www.aerothentic.com/articles/McGuire.htm)
"He did not type up or sign any individual combat report. The combat report with his name on it was made up by someone else.
He later saw Weaver's combat report and was surprised to see so much detail in it. He also can not corroborate what Weaver says he was doing after the first engagement with the bogie."
Ah, the controversy and the mists of time. ;)
That little excerpt came to me from Alan K. Roehrich, who is currently working with Mason investigating and writing the definitive account of McGuire's crash. When the report is ready, I'll post it on the Planes and Pilots of WWII website thanks to the kindness of Roehrich and Mason.
My regards,
Widewing
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A subsequent interview of Captain Weaver had quoted Weaver as saying that McGuire called for a diving turn to the left (a Luffberry), and had reduced his throttle settings in an attempt to slow enough to increase his turn. The Ki-43 flown by Sugimoto, according to Thropp, attacked Thropp first, as McGuire and Weaver were turning to engage. However, Sugimoto broke off his attack on Thropp and dove on McGuire and Weaver. Weaver called "he's on me now" just as Thropp had turned onto Sugimoto's tail, and saw that he was diving on McGuire and Weaver. Thropp had been preparing to warn Weaver and McGuire when Weaver called out, and Thropp was diving on Sugimoto.
Of the four pilots, Thropp was the least experienced, and the lowest in rank, with Rittmayer and McGuire being majors, Weaver a capt., and Thropp a lt.
As to knowing whether McGuire's engine was shot out, Weaver stated on seperate occasions that Sugimoto did not fire at McGuire, and in fact did not have a shot at him. This is in contrast to Thropp, who stated he felt that Sugimoto had a good angle and the proper lead for a shot at both. However, Thropp says he could not tell if Sugimoto ever fired. Weaver also never mentions Sugimoto ever firing on him, although at least one account has Sugimoto firing several long busts into Weaver's plane. there is also no report of such damage to Weaver's plane.
If you'll read the story in the link Toad provided, you'll see that it appears Thropp was upset with Weaver for telling him to RTB, instead of joining up with him. You'll also notice that Fukuda says that a Japanese pilot claimed to have shot McGuire down. However, Sugimoto was shot down, and the Fillipinos shot him to death when he crash landed, so there is little chance of a claim by Sugimoto of shooting McGuire down. You'll also notice that Rittmayer reported engine problems, but Thropp states he felt Rittmayer had no such engine problems. Thropp says he never saw McGuire crash, or even stall, and in fact, he thought that Sugimoto had shot down Weaver. However, Weaver was very close to McGuire, and stated on several occasions he saw Mcguire, saw his plane shudder, then saw it snap roll to the left, and he lost sight of it while it was inverted and nosed down 30 degrees.
Rittmayer was shot down by Fukuda. An interview of Fukuda done years ago states that Fukuda saw Rittmayer as the planes passed nose to nose, and described Rittmayer as wearing a crimsom scarf around his neck. Rittmayer wore no such scarf, and as the head on burst from Fukuda hit the center nacelle of Rittmayers plane, it is believed that Rittmayer was killed instantly by the burst he took from Fukuda on the head on pass.
There is no "speculation" of there being two Japanese planes, there were two Japanese planes, the Ki-43 flown by Sugimoto, and the Ki-84 flown by Fukuda. It was not at all uncommon for U.S. pilots to I.D. any Japanese single engine fighter as a "Zeke", and the two Japanese planes were painted similarly, and as such, since they (the two Japanese planes) were never both in view of the P-38s at the same time, it was assumed by Thropp and Weaver that there was only one. However, Fukuda was in one and Sugimoto in the other, and witnesses on the ground DID see both Japanese planes at once.
Another note about the article found at the link provided by Toad. That article was published long before any conclusion was reached by David Mason (in fact, Mason's investigation is open, and on hold as he serves the military under private industry contract since 9/11/2001). The investigation by Mason is by no means even close to complete. Mr. Mason contacted me with several questions about the P-38, and about tests that may or may not have been performed. At that time, _AFTER_ that article was published, Mason was looking into the theory that McGuire experienced a structural failure resulting in wing seperation. I forwarded his inquiry to Widewing, Warren Bodie, Stan Richardson Jr., Art Heiden, and Dr. Carlo Kopp. The theory of wing seperation (which was brought up by witnesses who found a large section of wing some distance from the crash set) was set aside, as Stan, Art, Warren, and Dr. Kopp all four stated that they knew of no such seperations outside of terminal compression dives (certainly not the case here). At this point, both Stan and Art said that the only way they were ever able to stall a P-38 and have it snap roll inverted was to turn extremely hard into a dead or shut down engine. What happened to McGuire was far outside the normal flight characteristics of a P-38, even heavily laden, so long as both engines were running and at equal power output.
As far as knowing what another pilot was doing goes, read the story that Ack-Ack provided the link to. Not only did other pilots hear McGuire throttle up, but he throttled up, yanked his plane around sharply, at low speed and low altitude, and successfully attacked the Japanese fighter.
McGuire was not flying his own plane, but rather the plane of Hal Gray Jr. There has been some arguement over what plane McGuire was flying and what was on the nose, however at the bottom of this page: http://www.475thfghf.org/legacy.htm ,you'll find that Major General Hal Gray Jr. states that it was his plane that McGuire was flying. As Mcguire was tough on planes, and his crew was very meticulous ("McGuire's Pudgy IV" to a back seat only to Mcdonald's "Putt Putt Maru" when it came to new parts and repairs, McDonald was the CO, but McGuire supposedly had a better ground crew), there is some speculation as to whether Gray's plane had ever been pushed as hard as McGuire pushed it. Although McGuire and his crew did check Gray's plane out late into the night before, McGuire had evidently never flown it before.
There is a great deal more research and investigation to be done before this matter is truly settled, if it ever really will be. In all honesty, unless McGuire is wherever you feel "Heaven" exists, and you are fortunate enough to meet him, you'll never know for sure, since McGuire took the answer to that question to his grave.
Big Crate, I'd like to see the rest of that article, and see who it is attributed to if you don't mind. While it is a somewhat valid theory, what happened to McGuire was described much differently. All the same, information is information, and I'd like to see it, since it provides a theory that cannot be dismissed out of hand.
I hope to provide more at a later date, if anyone is actually interested.
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"There comes a time when every fighter pilot needs a long rest, no matter how good he feels. The edge goes from his sharpness.
McGuire violated one of his cardinal rules of never going into combat with drop tanks still attached, particularly at low altitude. I think what happened to me in that steep turn, with belly tanks installed, happened to him at the relatively low speed he appearently was flying when his P-38 lost altitude and rolled up into a flaming ball.
Based o on the accouts I've read, McGuire at an altitude of about 200 feet, made a steep turn to take a zeke off another green pilot's tail and mushed into the ground. McGuire's long combat tour had taken the edge off his alertness, causing him to forget to drop his tanks before tackling the Zero and indirectly lead to his crash."
Well thats the rest of that part of the article. Tho some stuff doesn't match up to what yall posted. I think this is what happened. Because the 38 was stable in stall and it wouldn't try to snap roll on you in a stall. But if the center of gravity shifted aft slightly it would make the 38 unstable like in the P-51d. If you didn't drain the rear tank on take off. The 51's CG would be shifted aft and the 51 would become unstable and wanted to swap ends on ya while turning.
And I experienced this in the MA.. I was flying a 38 loaded with 2 1000lbs eggs. And was jumped by a spit. I didn't want to dump my eggs cause I needed to hit a base with them. So i fought the spit loaded up with eggs. Everytime I pulled a certain amount of Gs in turn a trn the plane would snap roll inverted (as stated above). But if I relaxed back pressure on the stick I would regain control. But with a loss of a couple of hunderd feet of alt. Finally I just got pissed and dumped my eggs and fought the spit. I know this is only sim. But the flight models are pretty close to the real things I think.
I know this is just my thoughts on things but it seems likly this could have happened.
PS if anyone wants copy of my Airpower article I would be happy to copy it and send it to yall.
Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=
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(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/mcg_bong2.jpg)
These guys look like runner-ups for Mr Ugly of US armed forces, that's for sure ;)
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Ugly but armed. :D
What men do you find attractive?
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Doesn't matter, armed or unarmed. These are lightyears away from leather wearing teutonic knights.
No woody here ;)
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Originally posted by BigCrate
Based o on the accouts I've read, McGuire at an altitude of about 200 feet, made a steep turn to take a zeke off another green pilot's tail and mushed into the ground. McGuire's long combat tour had taken the edge off his alertness, causing him to forget to drop his tanks before tackling the Zero and indirectly lead to his crash."
He didn't forget to drop them, he ordered his flight not to pickle the drop tanks. Some speculate that he didn't want to drop the tanks out of fear of scrubbing the mission early, others speculate that he didn't expect to be caught up in a dogfight but rather thought they'd score a quick kill on the what they thought was a lone Japanese fighter.
Well thats the rest of that part of the article. Tho some stuff doesn't match up to what yall posted. I think this is what happened. Because the 38 was stable in stall and it wouldn't try to snap roll on you in a stall. But if the center of gravity shifted aft slightly it would make the 38 unstable like in the P-51d. If you didn't drain the rear tank on take off. The 51's CG would be shifted aft and the 51 would become unstable and wanted to swap ends on ya while turning.
And I experienced this in the MA.. I was flying a 38 loaded with 2 1000lbs eggs. And was jumped by a spit. I didn't want to dump my eggs cause I needed to hit a base with them. So i fought the spit loaded up with eggs. Everytime I pulled a certain amount of Gs in turn a trn the plane would snap roll inverted (as stated above). But if I relaxed back pressure on the stick I would regain control. But with a loss of a couple of hunderd feet of alt. Finally I just got pissed and dumped my eggs and fought the spit. I know this is only sim. But the flight models are pretty close to the real things I think.
Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=
Being heavy with either ordinance or drop tanks isn't a prerequisite for this type of stall/spin. It can still happen on a clean P-38, you can see for yourself flying offline. Take up a P-38 with 25% fuel and climb up to a couple of thousand feet. Now start turning the P-38 in ever tighter circles so your energy bleeds away and you are forced to use your flaps to keep on the edge of a stall. With your speed at or very near stall speed and the stall buzzer is screaming, tighten your turn like your pulling hard for a lead shot on an imagined enema and you stall out. The result will be a snap roll to the side of the dipped wing and if not recovered quickly enough, a really nasty spin.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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if you change power settings in a multi engine aircraft while below minimum single engine control speed in a tight banked turn and one engine responds instantly while the other engine lags in reving up you will be as dead as McGuire if you are at low altitude.
but i think he knew better than to shove in the power to quickly anyways. although he was not in his usual ride, he borrowed another pilots plane.
I still think he got clobbered by the ki84 that showed up since mcguire was in the best position to shoot the ki43 the flight attacked first.
who do you kill first in a dogfight? the enemy on your friends tail.
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Originally posted by Citabria
but i think he knew better than to shove in the power to quickly anyways. although he was not in his usual ride, he borrowed another pilots plane.
I still think he got clobbered by the ki84 that showed up since mcguire was in the best position to shoot the ki43 the flight attacked first.
who do you kill first in a dogfight? the enemy on your friends tail.
Actually, if you read about the incident at Tacloban, (look at the link at the bottom of Ack-Ack's post) you'll see an example of McGuire firewalling the throttles at low speed and yanking his plane around to get a shot. He was in full landing trim with gear and flaps down and at part throttle. He nailed the Tojo he was after.
No, McGuire was not hit by Fukuda in the Ki-84, Fukuda did not enter the fight until _AFTER_ McGuire had already crashed. Fukuda, in the Ki-84 killed Rittmayer, he did not get McGuire. McGuire never got position and a shot on Sugimoto, he died trying. McGuire crashed first, then Fukuda entered the fight after Rittmayer had already shot Sugimoto up. Fukuda said he "thought" Sugimoto might have hit McGuire, so did Thropp, but only Weaver was in a position to have seen what happened to McGuire. Rittmayer may have seen it too, but he's dead, Fukuda killed him that day.
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I would have to agree with akak. It is hard to keep a P-38 in a tight turn with drop tanks plus the fact of him being in a long combat fight could have played a factor in his death. It's just hard to say as investigations in those days weren't as thorugh nor did they have the equiptment to help in those investigations either like we do today. :(
I just hope someday, we will find out what really happened that day of his death as i know there are a lot of unanswered questions. :cool:
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Actually, if you read about the incident at Tacloban, (look at the link at the bottom of Ack-Ack's post) you'll see an example of McGuire firewalling the throttles at low speed and yanking his plane around to get a shot. He was in full landing trim with gear and flaps down and at part throttle. He nailed the Tojo he was after.
No, McGuire was not hit by Fukuda in the Ki-84, Fukuda did not enter the fight until _AFTER_ McGuire had already crashed. Fukuda, in the Ki-84 killed Rittmayer, he did not get McGuire. McGuire never got position and a shot on Sugimoto, he died trying. McGuire crashed first, then Fukuda entered the fight after Rittmayer had already shot Sugimoto up. Fukuda said he "thought" Sugimoto might have hit McGuire, so did Thropp, but only Weaver was in a position to have seen what happened to McGuire. Rittmayer may have seen it too, but he's dead, Fukuda killed him that day.
Furthermore, McGuire's wreck was later examined and no battle damage was observed or reported. I can think of a dozen reasons why any engine would fail to answer throttle. Any one of them could have caused the crash. It's happened to me, although under much less critical circumstances (failed throttle linkage, number 2 engine).
My regards,
Widewing
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Hitting the ground......