Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: AmRaaM on March 02, 2002, 02:12:49 AM
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Two pilots I correspond with who flew p38s for the 433rd said if you want to read about the p38 and how it flew, to read the Nov. 1973 articles by Bodie in Airpower magazine, they are right on the money according to them. they also said the compression problem never was fully remedied.
also...how about the 2000# bombs for the p38s being modeled here !
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Could you ask them what effect the dive flaps had on compression buffeting? I know they restored lift by moving the shockwave location on the wing. Did it delay the onset or reduce the severity of the buffeting?
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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'Nov. 1973 articles by Bodie in Airpower magazine"
What? where? URL? :D :D
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I have a Nov 72 issue of Airpower with a article that talks about flying the 38 :)
Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=
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Originally posted by Tac
'Nov. 1973 articles by Bodie in Airpower magazine"
What? where? URL? :D :D
Tac, if you have Warren's P-38 book, you have the article. The book is a compilation of the P-38 articles published in Mizrahi's Wings and Airpower magazines back in the 1970s.
Indeed, Mizrahi's magazines have fallen on hard times of late. Largely due to business practices and the alienation of most of the better writers. Only Walt Boyne and Pete Bowers have contributed new articles of late. Many articles are reprints from 30 years ago, with the author's name changed... Advertisement sales are way down as well. You may be able to get copies of Bodie's articles as Mizrahi still maintains back issues. There is a website, but I can't recall the URL. Do a search under Airpower Magazine or Challenge Publications.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks for the info widewing :) :)
Guess ill save a bit for the book. Im torn between addiction to Anime and addiction to the P-38...
Why is life so damn HARD. ARGH :D
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I think there was a recent reprint or re-release of Warren's book. He may also have a few copies stored away, next time I talk to him I'll ask. Warren is getting up in years, and can be a somewhat grouchy old cuss. I try not to bother him right now, he's hard at work on a two volume comemorative about the 8th AF, this is the 60th anniversary of the 8th, and he desperately wants to get it out soon.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
I think there was a recent reprint or re-release of Warren's book. He may also have a few copies stored away, next time I talk to him I'll ask. Warren is getting up in years, and can be a somewhat grouchy old cuss. I try not to bother him right now, he's hard at work on a two volume comemorative about the 8th AF, this is the 60th anniversary of the 8th, and he desperately wants to get it out soon.
Warren re-issued the original book in softcover. He has no remaining copies of the P-38 or P-47 book, although Motorbooks has a few copies (overstock returns from retail stores).
Warren and I have worked together on piles of magazine articles. Likewise, I've done the same with Dr. Kopp (only one, an extensive P-38 piece). We both wish that I had more time to devote to research and writing together. As it is, I'm still working on a manuscript on the Berlin Airlift that's long overdue.....
Yeah, Warren can be a handful at times, but once you understand how to best deal with him, it's really easy to get along. In his own words, "I cannot suffer a fool". Warren requires that the level of BS be minimal. Honesty goes a long way with him. He tends to be slightly paranoid, so it is important to reassure him that you have only the best intentions. Yet, for a guy his age (78), he is as energetic and mentally sharp as one could hope for at the age of 65. Personally, I'm very fond of Warren. As a friend, he's a gem and much more generous than his crusty personality tends to suggest. I wish all my friends were as reliable and kind-hearted as Warren.
You can call Warren, best time is in the evening after 9 PM. This is when he likes to chat and seems to have the time for longer conversations. He just sent me the jacket art work for his 8th AF book, and I'll be putting it up on his website this weekend.
I assume that you have his phone number. If not, e-mail me and I'll send over. Likewise for his e-mail address.
My regards,
Widewing
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Oh, I didn't mean to imply that Warren was anything short of a great guy, and an invaluable friend. I seem to remember him telling me around Christmas that he knew where some copies could be had, I'm not exactly sure where they were.
Yes, Warren has been burned a couple of times, I don't blame him for being suspicious. But once you get past that, he is everything you say he is, and more.
I cannot wait to get my hands on the new book, I'm excited enough about seeing the jacket.
Dr. Kopp is also a great guy, he's been an excellent resource and a good friend. He's just as busy as Warren is. But still very generous with any help he can offer.
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Widewing what was the name of article you and Dr. Kopp did together? And is it on your website??
Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=
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Originally posted by BigCrate
Widewing what was the name of article you and Dr. Kopp did together? And is it on your website??
Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=
The title is "Der Gabelschwanz Teufel" (the Forked-Tail Devil) and it is on my site. It was also published in Airpower International magazine this past summer. Several of our surviving P-38 pilots contributed photos, including Jack Ilfrey (Happy Jack's Go Buggy)
and Art Heiden (Lucky Lady). Stan Richardson was also a major source for the article. Good stuff that should be read by HTC and considered when they get around to looking at the P-38L flight modeling again. There's no substitute for real combat flight reports. Formal test data never reflects the truth of actual combat operations. As it is, the current P-38L is poorly modeled in several respects.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing
I read "Der Gabelschwanz Teufel". It's a very nice article but I have a couple of questions about it. It states that:
The D-model was the first combat capable subtype and was fitted with self sealing tanks, detail aerodynamic changes, Dural bladed props, a low pressure Oxygen system and typically a 23 mm cannon.
It also states that the first LW kill in the ETO by the AAF was a FW-200 by a P-38D. I'm wondering if this reference to the D model and the reference to a 23mm cannon were typos.
Joe Baugher's site on US military aircraft has the following on the P-38D.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/
Changes were taking place at such a rapid rate that even the changes introduced on the P-38D did not really make it combat-ready. In 1942, the P-38 was redesignated RP-38 and the P-38D was redesignated RP-38D, the 'R' prefix meaning 'restricted to non-combat roles'. They were used strictly as combat trainers.
Warren Bodie's book on the P-38 states that no P-38D's were used operationally and that the FW-200 was attacked by 2 P-38F's and a P-40C.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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Widewing my thoughts exactly about the 38L being missed modeled!! But I'm not saying another word about it. :)
Cw
=Twin Engined Twin=
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Lol CW.
That thought never has crossed my mind. ;) :) :D
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Airpower is sold out of copies, 1975+ only avial. select dates.
I'll get copy of all them when I go down to MarchAFB. Or see if McClellenAFB still has that fat selection hidden inhouse, maybe get lucky with copy there next week.
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Originally posted by FLS
Widewing
I read "Der Gabelschwanz Teufel". It's a very nice article but I have a couple of questions about it. It states that:
The D-model was the first combat capable subtype and was fitted with self sealing tanks, detail aerodynamic changes, Dural bladed props, a low pressure Oxygen system and typically a 23 mm cannon.
It also states that the first LW kill in the ETO by the AAF was a FW-200 by a P-38D. I'm wondering if this reference to the D model and the reference to a 23mm cannon were typos.
Joe Baugher's site on US military aircraft has the following on the P-38D.
http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_us/
Changes were taking place at such a rapid rate that even the changes introduced on the P-38D did not really make it combat-ready. In 1942, the P-38 was redesignated RP-38 and the P-38D was redesignated RP-38D, the 'R' prefix meaning 'restricted to non-combat roles'. They were used strictly as combat trainers.
Warren Bodie's book on the P-38 states that no P-38D's were used operationally and that the FW-200 was attacked by 2 P-38F's and a P-40C.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
Some P-38Ds were fitted with the 23mm Madsen cannon. Several other aircraft had Madsens specified as well. None were ever used in combat.
Indeed, there were no P-38Ds in Iceland. The P-38 that killed the Fw 200 was a P-38F-5-LO model assigned to the 27th Fighter Squadron, 1st Fighter Group. Dr. Kopp's reference to it being a D model is incorrect. I will fix the error, and thanks for pointing it out.
My regards,
Widewing
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heheheheheheheheheheheheheheh ehe :D
Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=
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Originally posted by Widewing
Some P-38Ds were fitted with the 23mm Madsen cannon. Several other aircraft had Madsens specified as well. None were ever used in combat.
That's very interesting - I knew that the Madsen had been tested in the USA (it was considered for the P-39 as well IIRC) but not that it had been fitted to several aircraft - that implies a more serious intent. Can you provide more details?
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
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It's my favorite military airplane from the WWII era, and it gives me a boner thinking about it.
Thanks for the info...
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Originally posted by Tony Williams
That's very interesting - I knew that the Madsen had been tested in the USA (it was considered for the P-39 as well IIRC) but not that it had been fitted to several aircraft - that implies a more serious intent. Can you provide more details?
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine
guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
Lockheed records indicate that all 36 P-38D aircraft were built with the Madsen installation (how many were actually installed is unknown to me). Several were tested with the some or all of the guns installed. Meanwhile, the British purchasing commission placed an order for a modified version of the P-38 (Lightning I, Model 322) and specified the Hispano rather than the Madsen. This suited the USAAC, which had always wanted the Hispano, but were unable to obtain them. With the entry of the U.S. into the war, this became a non-issue.
Also using the Madsen was the Grumman XF5F-1, which was went as far as test firing early in the test flight program. Initially, the Grumman design was to have four Madsens, but there is no evidence that more than one was ever installed for testing.
I'm at the office, and I don't have any reference materials here to allow me to be more specific than the above.
My regards,
Widewing
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Thanks Widewing - if you manage to dig out any more, I'd be grateful.
Tony Williams
Author: "Rapid Fire: The development of automatic cannon, heavy machine guns and their ammunition for armies, navies and air forces"
Details on my military gun and ammunition website:
http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk
Military gun and ammunition discussion forum:
http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/
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Originally posted by Tac
Lol CW.
That thought never has crossed my mind. ;) :) :D
Have you ever experienced this in the P-38L?
I enter a dive from 7k, by 4k the controls are locked, and I can't pull out with trim before augering. I find this to be a serious error in the modeling. At 4k, critical Mach is about 515 mph. I never exceeded 460. Even if I did reach critical Mach, the controls should not lock-up. Granted there would be some buffeting, but total loss of control, no. Naturally, the dive recovery flaps are useless.
My regards,
Widewing
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I find that the dives flaps make it noticably easier to pull out. The dive flaps don't cause the pitch up in normal flight that's been reported by P-38 pilots but they do restore pitch response to the stick in compression. The P-38 operating manual states that employing the dive flaps after compression will initially increase the buffeting before reducing it. In AH the buffeting seems unaffected by the dive flaps. In dives to compression I find you can pull out with trim with or without dive flaps after losing pitch response in the stick. Auto trim to level or speed will also recover the dive.
Was the 460mph TAS or IAS?
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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I have been messing with this. When I can find time to fly. :(
The 38 driver in WW2 were taight to roll the plane to one side right?? I can't remember where I read that. I'll look for it tonight.
But anyways I enter a dive start to start a slow roll to one side.
I have dive flaps deployed and I have combat trim on and throttles at 20" of manifold pressure. I can keep control with some buffeting but its not bad. And I'm at bout 425 TAS or around there. It seems to work but I have only done it at low alts mostly below 14k. I haven't tried it above that seeing how most of my fights are at 20k with some damn alt monkey :). I'll look around and try to find where I read that about rolling the plane in a dive tonight and post it. And what else is missing in the flight models is that there is not buffet at low speeds.. The 38 gives some warning before a stall by a wing dipping. but thats it there should be warning buffet to. Or at least i think.
Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=
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This is it. http://yarchive.net/mil/p38.html
That site talks bout all kinds of 38 stuff! clover leaf turns, diving a 38. 38 vs german and allied planes and it hugh I have only read bout half of it. I havn't been able to perform aclover leaf turn yet.
I don't know if the 38 will let me in AH or its just my motor skiills haven't developed yet or what. And you don't roll just to one side
you roll from left to right or vice versa. here is what the site saidsThat's pretty much true of any fighter of the era, and not unique to the P-38.
It's well documented that P-38 pilots in the ETO were afraid to dive after
German fighters, who quickly realized that fact, and took advantage of it. The
problem was not so much the P-38 as the familiarization of the pilots with the
characteristics of the P-38 and how to handle them. In the case of a dive from
high altitude in a P-38, the procedures was throttles to idle--let gravity do
the work--when buffeting begins, bank right and left to slow the descent (doing
this also helps you keep an eye on what's going on around you). Pretty
straight forward. Why this wasn't practiced in the ETO is a question, but much
the USAAF did, fighter-wise, in the ETO is questionable.
Note also that if a pilot is intent on following an e/a all the way down in a
dive, he doesn't necessarily have to have a superior dive speed to his foe (in
fact, if he does, he will very likely overshoot), but he does need to be able
to keep him in sight until his foe pulls out of his dive. Actually, being some
distance behind your foe in a dive rather than being right on his tail is the
best position to be in, because it means he has most likely lost sight of you
and presumes himself safe, and, once he levels out or begins to climb, his
speed bleeds off rapidly while you still have the downhill advantage. More
than one Lightning pilot in the Pacific was downed by a much slower diving Zero
that persisted in following him down and then reeled him in once he leveled
off. That's why the veteran P-38 driver in the Pacific would immediately go
into a corkscrew climb at the completion of a dive in order to clear his tail
of any trailing e/a.
It also has a good bit of tactics used in WW2.
I'll try this next time I'm flying.
Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=
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Nice link! thanks! :)
Widewing: The AH 38 will not break 510mph in a 90 degree power dive with WEP on unless you start said dive from 27k (and you reach about 540mph..but when you hit around 15k-12k the 38 will hit a wall and almost instantly slow down to below 500mph). Dive flaps now only give you back like 5% of nose control. Which is fine by me, its almost like the effect it should have if the IRL 38 had deployed the flaps BEFORE the dive (but in AH it does it the moment you deploy them flaps, no matter the speed). The 2nd effect is the one I sorely want (deployed after dive pulls nose up 2-4g's).
The supertrim control allows you to pull out of the compressed dive much quicker than the current dive flaps anyway. I dont even bother to turn on the little light bulb any more. Also, if you can map your alierons and elevator trim to your stick (I got them in my joystick's hat), you can manouver the 38 when compressed... just like any other plane can (aka, 410mph zekes turning hehe).