Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: ~Caligula~ on March 02, 2002, 09:52:23 PM
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What to do with these amazinhunks?
Read here (http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/03/News/News.44410.html)
They want no peace,they just wanna kill people,jews,christians,americans whoever.I`m sure if they got what they wanted they`d just keep killing just for the hell of it.
Israel`s gonna have to come to the conclusion:the only way out is to kick them all out of the country.But guess what,no other arab country would let them in.The PLO`s been kicked out of both Jordan and Lebanon by their arab brothers,after they reallized what a bunch of amazinhunks they are.
:mad:
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So israel should kick palestinians out of palestine? They've been doing that for quite a few years now.
Can you understand why the palestinians are upset and bombing everything they see.
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Nah man ,I simply can`t understand what can possibly make someone wanna blow up childeren.
Whatever your cause is,when you do things like this,You dirty yourself and your cause and loose all your rights for anything but severe punishment.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
Nah man ,I simply can`t understand what can possibly make someone wanna blow up childeren.
Whatever your cause is,when you do things like this,You dirty yourself and your cause and loose all your rights for anything but severe punishment.
Go to your local book store and buy a book from a section called "history". It might be quite enlighting.
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Caligula you might start your studying by searching some info with Google or other search-engine with words "Shabra" and "Shatila".
Read about what happened in those camps and reply then to this topic.
Few pics from those camps: http://www.geocities.com/cahumanity/
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LOL ! Nice allies !
The Assault on the USS Liberty Still Covered Up After 26 Years
By James M. Ennes Jr.
June 1993, Page 19
Twenty-six years have passed since that clear day on June 8, 1967 when Israel attacked the USS Liberty with aircraft and torpedo boats, killing 34 young men and wounding 171. The attack in international waters followed over nine hours of close surveillance. Israeli pilots circled the ship at low level 13 times on eight different occasions before attacking. Radio operators in Spain, Lebanon, Germany and aboard the ship itself all heard the pilots reporting to their headquarters that this was an American ship. They attacked anyway. And when the ship failed to sink, the Israeli government concocted an elaborate story to cover the crime.
There is no question that this attack on a U.S. Navy ship was deliberate. This was a coordinated effort involving air, sea, headquarters and commando forces attacking over a long period. It was not the "few rounds of misdirected fire" that Israel would have the world believe. Worse, the Israeli excuse is a gross and detailed fabrication that disagrees entirely with the eyewitness recollections of survivors. Key American leaders call the attack deliberate. More important, eyewitness participants from the Israeli side have told survivors that they knew they were attacking an American ship.
Israeli Pilot Speaks Up
Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.
Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.
The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.
Key members of the Lyndon Johnson administration have long agreed that this attack was no accident. Perhaps most outspoken is former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Admiral Thomas Moorer. "I can never accept the claim that this was a mistaken attack, " he insists.
Former Secretary of State Dean Rusk is equally outspoken, calling the attack deliberate in press and radio interviews. Similarly strong language comes from top leaders of the Central Intelligence Agency, National Security Agency (some of whose personnel were among the victims), National Security Council, and from presidential advisers such as Clark Clifford, Joseph Califano and Lucius Battle.
A top-secret analysis of Israel's excuse conducted by the Department of State found Israel's story to be untrue. Yet Israel and its defenders continue to stand by their claim that the attack was a "tragic accident" in which Israel mistook the most modern electronic surveillance vessel in the world for a rusted-out 40-year-old Egyptian horse transport.
Despite the evidence, no U.S. administration has ever found the courage to ever found the courage to defy the Israeli lobby by publicly demanding a proper accounting from Israel.
How Does Congress React to These Complaints?
Most members of Congress respond to inquiries about the Liberty with seemingly sympathetic promises to "investigate. " Weeks or months later they write again to report their "findings": "The Navy investigated in 1967 and found no evidence that the attack was deliberate," they say. "Israel apologized, calling the attack a tragic case of misidentification, and paid damages for loss of life, injuries and property damage. The matter is closed.
The fact is, however, that the Navy's "investigation" examined only the quality of the crew's training, the adequacy of communications and the performance of the crew under fire. The Navy was forbidden to examine Israeli culpability and Navy investigators refused to allow testimony showing that the attack was deliberate or that Israel's excuse was untrue.
The Navy blocked all testimony about Israeli actions.
Instead of determining whether the attack was deliberate, the Navy blocked all testimony about Israeli actions. No survivor was permitted to describe the close in machine-gun fire that continued for 40 minutes after Israel claims all firing stopped. No survivor was allowed to talk about the life rafts the Israeli torpedomen machine-gunned in the water. No survivor was permitted to challenge defects and fabrications in Israel's story. Even my eyewitness testimony as officer-of-the deck was withheld from the official record. No evidence of Israeli culpability was "found" because no such testimony was allowed. To survivors, this was not an investigation. It was a cover-up.
quote is from http://www.wrmea.com/html/about_us.htm
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Go to your local book store and buy a book from a section called "history". It might be quite enlighting.
After You dude.
Why don`t you go and pick up Mark Twain`s notes on what the Holy Land looked like at the end of the 1800s.
On the account of those pictures of the 1982 massacre:
how about posting some pictures of Dresden 1945,and some pics about Vietnam.
People in sets like that diddly up.Horrible things happen,but it`s only a one time incident wich was not repeted EVER by the israelis.
On the other hand :attacks by arabs on jewish civilians have been going on for quiet some time.
diddly `em
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you are just fuming because you are a jew. don't act like you are objective and outraged...
israel started thier biggest push in months this week - what do you expect the palestinians to do? sit there and take it?
i've never understood how israel lashes out and then wails and gnashes when the arabs hit back. and all the u.s. officials said was the usual "well....try not to kill too many civilians pals. shalom, see you at temple"
you are just as hateful about them as anyone ever has been of your people. and twice as hypocritical...i'm sure you'd just as soon gas all the palestinians herr caligula-berg.
you like to fling nazi labels at everyone like a overused magic spell - look at yourself. today's israeli jew is just as good at keeping the boot on someone's throat.
guiliani, pikati, hillary clinton and a host of other israeli bellybutton kissers have all been thru to hold hands with sharon in a very visible way to their nervous napkin clutching new york constituents in the last few months - i guess that shows the arabs how neutral we are and helps them buy into the process.
stop screwing people and you'll stop reaping bad karma. (it's like getting proceeds from a high interest loan - you ought to be able to figure that out)
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(it's like getting proceeds from a high interest loan - you ought to be able to figure that out)
Oh Yeah....getting rich on the poor unsuspecting gentiles huh?
well....try not to kill too many civilians pals. shalom, see you at temple
So it`s ok to kill civilians if you`re not israeli?
If they were such noble freedom fighters why are they hiding behind kids and women.I tell You why,because they have no morals and they don`t give a damn about their own people either.
you are just as hateful about them as anyone ever has been of your people. and twice as hypocritical...i'm sure you'd just as soon gas all the palestinians herr caligula-berg.
You have absolutelly no idea of what I am.
I have no desire of gasing no-one,not even killing any way.
And I was just as outraged about things that happened in Rwanda,Jugoslavia..etc.
the arabs could live in peace with the jews,and have a lot better standard of living in Israel,than in many arab countries.If they only chilled out!!!!
They could practice they religion,go by their costums,have their buisnisses and so on.Show me an arab state with the same level of freedom for not muslims.
Even the temple mount is given to them.The Dome of the Holy Rock is off limit for jews.They can`t go there.
I`d like to see your face when You find out You can`t visit some part of the US because you`re white american.
And don`t forget:that very spot is the center of jewish history and religion.That is tolerance no other nation can show.
Had it been the other way,the arabs would have bulldozed off any temple to use the spot for whatever they want,and to show they don`t give a toejam about anybody else.Just look at all the things they destroyed in Afganistan.
yes I`m pissed and outraged (did You even bother reading the page I linked?) and I have a good reason to be.
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People in sets like that diddly up.Horrible things happen,but it`s only a one time incident wich was not repeted EVER by the israelis.
On the other hand :attacks by arabs on jewish civilians have been going on for quiet some time.
diddly `em
Here's a few more words to try with google:
Dir Yassin: around 200 people, many women and children, massacred during and after the attack on this Arab village
Qibya: raid into Jordan led by Ariel Sharon when he was a young officer. His men took 600KG of explosives, and used them to blow up houses in the village. People who fled their houses were shot. 69 civilians died.
Israel was founded on the sort of tactics the Palestinians are now using, and has used them throughout it's war on the Palestinians.
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The Isrealis and Palestinians don't want peace, they want victory. They fight for the power to dominate the other, so there will never be a real peace. You could turn the whole region into dust, and the survivors would still fight over what remains.
They are as bad as each other.
Tronsky
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Is it really so surprising that there are children dying ?
This is a war both sides are fighting and both sides are using terroristic intruments.
The Saddam-like terrorist called Sharon sends his military hordes in the arab territory to make some new massacres. (Ironic to see a jew acting like a Nazi leader in 2nd WW ehen he wanted to suppress riots in occupied territories. Maybe the israeli army should wear black uniforms with polished boots and skull-symbols in future...).
The arab terrorists in their fanatic madness blow themself up in the hope to take as many of the Israelis with them.
As long as both sides - Palestines and Israelis are dominated by their terrorist leaders there will be no peace and all the losses of the poor innocent humans become nothing more than boring collateral damage numbers in the TV news.
I just hope that the time of the more intelligent and peaceful leaders in both sides will come soon.
Until this day we see the violence and the losses on both side growing.
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Bomb the Puppy Kennels, candy factories, and only target the crippled children wing of the welfare hospital with lazer guided smart bombs.
4 wings of insane criminals will be spared, a whole wing of cancer children eliminated!
Imagine that. Then tell the turds you mean business. Certainly they would just go, “Ah toejam. The Bastards mean biznus!”
I hate Jews and the Palestine Street dancing Muslim towel wearing religion fools that did a 2 step after the Twin Towers went down and had a parade to celebrate the murder of American's for CNN.
See, both are militant religion sand coons, bent on murder and hate.
More they kill each other, more I laugh. Have at it tards!
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i just wish palestinians would have better armament like stingers and apilas. that way we would have much cooler footage in the news :)
maybe cnn could give 'em few ?
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Yes! better weapons, and train them to shoot straight. They can’t wipe eachother out with tear gas and suicide bombs, at least not in the attrition I hope for.
Like the L.A. gangs that shoot sideways cuz it's cool, missing everything, but hitting innocent children.
Give em high end optics/scopes, high grade powder and copper bullets, and a home sniper bullet loader course.
Then commission Hollywood to make gangster rap films of angry black youth drinkin a 40 oz. while “sightin in his scope.” Good PR and and could up the kill rate, to everyone's benefit, substantially .
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Originally posted by Creamo
Then commission Hollywood to make gangster rap films of angry black youth drinkin a 40 oz. while “sightin in his scope.” Good PR and and could up the kill rate, to everyone's benefit, substantially .
lol ice t could do the soundtrack for this one too:
"i am a nightmare walkin', psychopath talkin', king of gaza just a yamulka wearer stalkin' "
instead of colors it could "kibbutz-kibbutz-kibbutz" with some scratching in the back ground.
characters like 'yosef ben-mac-dog' or 'bejamin "crazy tooth" bernstein' could go up against their rivals: 'mohammed 'lazy-dawg' achim', or 'suyleman "lil-g" rashid'
a couple of big-hearted u.n. cops can cruise around in a half-track passing out draedles trying to keep kids out the death squads. and maybe shelling out a few 'd.a.r.e' turbans and bumper stickers to the arabs...
i think you are on to something.
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Solution: One thermo nuclear device
I'm sick of Israel, and Palestine.
We send both money, as well as other Middle East nations to "help" them, but in return, we get Anti-American mantra. If we help Israel, we get flamed by all the Arab nations. If we show any kind of compassion for the Arabs, Israel whines.
And don't forget, those kind folks in Saudi Arabi are where most of the terrorists from 9/11 came from. And Kuwait...their as anti-American as ever.
So, nuke the Mid east and watch the radiation cloud whisp over Red China? Oh, gee, that brings tears to my eyes
Yes, I know, a very cynical post from someone who is tired of the same old same old between those two. They should take the gloves off and duke it out. No peace proposal has ever settled anything like this matter with Palestine and Israel. Only a military victory will quell this once and for all.. History supports that conclusion.
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So do the Jews have a right to exist and have a country?
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They do.
But do they have a right to push others out of theirs?
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Who`s pushing who?
The land of Israel was given to the jews to form a jewish state by the leauge of nations.
Since than the arabs been attacking Israel.
In my book if your country is being attacked,You need to defend it.
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it was strong armed using the same tactics the palistinians are using now. It was not given over to a couple daisy carring hand hold skippin ' round the may pole peace nics.
It was run and is run by terrorist.
I can only tell what I would do if anyone tried to force upon me the conditions that the Isrealis have forced upon the palistinians. I wouldn't stop until everyone of my oppressors were begging me for peace.
Isreali armed forces are always killing children. They round up palistinian parents put them in camps to freeze and starve then when their children get angry and retaliate with stones the Brave isreali army machine guns umm down. Then cry and scream when the ones that survive this strap nail bombs to themselves to get a little pay back.
Why dont you put up a body count that compares jewish dead to palistinian.
"I just want children to stop dying" bs they want jewish children to quit dying and could give a toejam about palistinian children.
Zionism is the equal of Nazism. So the question isnt does a Jewish state deserve to exist because all people have a right to self determination. But you never asked if a palstinian state deserves to exist.
A Zionist State does not deserve to exist.
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-Uh?!?! they where given roughly 50% of it, then in the early wars they took a lot more, wich has been accepted even by the arabs, and then took all of it in 1967, and have continously been pushing the locals out of there building those settlements.
I can´t find any logical objection to palestinians firing at ocupation forces or "settlers" (i can´t see heavily armed fanatics as civilians). I can´t bring myself to label that as terrorism. For example, the latest news about a palestinian sniper wiping a roadblock in the territories is not terrorism in my view
Suicide bombings... braindead savage terrorism, but don´t brandish killed children in front of the world when IDF soldiers regularly shoot dead 8 years old stone throwers.
Until both parts have their own f*ckheads dead/jailed/expelled there won´t be any soultion
PS. Start reading Ha'aretz instead of the Jpost, the Jpost is the voice of those who support a neo-fascist, apartheid state in Israel and can only fuel anti Israeli feelings among informed readers with it's blantant racism and bigotry. Do yourself a favor and go get your news at http://www.haaretzdaily.com
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
In my book if your country is being attacked,You need to defend it.
You are absolutely right.
The palestine territory was taken away from the arabs by some foreigners who "decided" in a "democratic" solution that the country has to be given to some strangers called "Israelis".
So - if some foreigner with more physical power comes to you and tells you that by a democratic election your country will be given to some other people you have every right to defend it.
According to own definition nothing else the arabs are doing today.
Face the truth:
The Israel of today has become a perverted thing. It is not a democratic country but a fascistoid apartheid regime ruled by a terroristic leader like Saddam Hussein, Pinochet or Milosevic.
The jewish victims of the 2nd World War are indeed dishonored by the Nazi-policy of their successors of today.
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Yes, i've been thinking about this lately. Zionist jews are acting like Nazis, national fanatics. This toejam just goes on and on....
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Caligula, do you believe the League of Nations had any right to do what they did? What they did had no legality.
Does Israel have the right to ethnic cleanse palestinian territory? Occupying land, bulldozing it and building settlements for people of Jewish faith is most definately wrong.
As i said before Caligula, can you understand why the palestinians are upset? Not to mention that every palestinian hates sharon because he is a murderer and a war criminal, does lebanon and the massacres which happened there ring a bell? (he shoulda been put to trial years ago).
but of course you're right caligula- expelling all the palestinians out of their homeland will solve the problem.:rolleyes:
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I'm pretty sure we have Israelis in AH... but I don't think I've ever heard of any Palestinians here.
I would love to hear from people from both sides who actually or recently lived over there. It would be ideal if there could be some kind of dialog on this BB between the two cultures.
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It would be interesting if words could be used to prove the point to the other side. But it seems that people have there own interpretations, and are not willing to let the others opinion in.
Everybody knows that the Jews come the land that is called Israel.
We know that because peole call Jews.....Jews. Jew is an affermation that the Jews came from the kingdom of Judah.
Anybody who is willing to read will see that Mohamad and his hoards came from the direction of Suidi Arabia (S.P.) and succed to conqure land all the way to Mogolia (Yea, I understand that it took a few generations.)
Would anybody care to know that Jews are Palastinian as much as the Muslims and Christian.
Palastine was named by Rome, so the world will forget that there was a Judah. Does anybody care that nobody cared about the Palastine part that is now called Israel. (We are aware that Jordan is also Palastine right?.) The trees were cut down by the Greeks, then the Romans, and Arabs finally made it a barren land, that is until the Jews came back home and made it green again.
The solution is simple: The people calling themselves Palastinian, is made up of about 90% of forineers who decided to leave their homeland to help disproportionate the mass emigration of Jews who wanted to come home.
Send the Arabs home, I say, which means by force. If they pull a gun, It would make sence to me. Of coarse Israel will win in the end, deffending what you believe is yours is logical. But I can't stand that Non-Jews think my land is theirs, keeping me off the parts of my land that are the most important to me. The only solution is war (sorry, Sly and the family Stoned). It is truly painful for me to live in a world where we can't trust each other, but what other choice do we have when we don't even believe each other.
--Yatziv
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I'm sick of them both. The Jews and Palestenians are the same ethinic group of people, they are both mideastern types- semites- yes the word actually includes Jews AND Palestenians. Thay are a big bickering family feud.
They are both diddlying stupid and neither side wants peace. I hope they all kill each other, they deserve it. USA should stop supporting Israel too, they are now useless to us. Thx for some small help during the cold war, good bye now.
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We should give them France.. or Canada. I mean, who lives there anyway? ;)
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But I can't stand that Non-Jews think my land is theirs,
produce a deed saying anything there was yours palistinians have many such deeds and were removed by force.
I dont care what your god promised you. If you think that those people should just bow down to your will they wont. So your people kill them and they strike back.
But dont come here with some poor persecuted jew story because the evidence over the last 40 years has proven that Zionism is the aggressor.
Of course they dont want you there ....its not like the jews came in peace...............
I believe Hitler expressed those same views when describing the impact of non-aryans and Jews in the 1930s.
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Caligula - your historical essay is extremely wrong.
The Islam conquered the lands in the middle East by assimilatiting the people who lived there for centuries. Their most effective weapon was their new religion who fascinated the people living in the region and who became tired of their corrupt rulers.
These people were allowed to convert to Islam and to become Arabs (maybe you should check, what this word means - it helps).
The Egyptians - a high culture who built the pyramides became Arabs. They didnt moved in Egypt - they were there centuries before and just adopted the new religion, language and culture.
Also the Syrians - another high culture of the region - became Arabs.
And also many other of the races in the region.
They adopted the new language, writing and religion.
There were countries and cultures who refused to be assimilated - like Iran for example. They defended their territory, their non-arab language and culture. Even when they lost the war and were occupied they saved their own language and finally drove the Arabs out of Iran. They even changed the religion and built the Shi- ite Islam - an Islam which is much influenced by the old persian pre-islamic religion.
But back to the palestines:
The Palestines - like the Egypts - lived in their region when they adopted the new islamic religion and became Arabs.
They didnt moved in the territory with the Arab conquest - they just were there and became assimilated. So they are everything - but surely not foreigners like the jewish hordes who colonized their stolen land under protection of some superpowers after WW2 because of a pervert and highly illegitime UNO-order.
The jews who arrived in the "new (stolen) land" were the foreigners. Not the palestines...
So - again - acoording to your own definition the palestines have the right to fight for their rights and their land.
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Caligula
seems u are surrounded by pro palestiners inthis thread :)
guess udie and mrfish have a truce ....
I have to side with Israel. They have been our allies, now and in the past, and the only country in the region that doesn't wish every American death. I applaude their patience. If Canada gotta hair up its arse and started suicide bombing the US, how long do you think til we rolled tanks and flattened every one of them?? Our land, their land, whatever... they'd be gone...
Seems there is zero control/government onthe Palestine side. Just a bunch of radicals, usually young and dumb, which would rather die a "martyr" than try to live in any kind of peace. To bad they have to kill women and children to prove their point :rolleyes:
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the only country in the region that doesn't wish every American death
The question is : what was their attitude toward American before the greation ab nihilo of the Israel state and the suport of Isreal by USA ?
Before the creation of Isreal it was often more safe for jews to be in an islamic country like Tunisia Morrocco (even Iran) than any "Catholic" country like Poland Russia and lot of other Euros country ...
In fact the term "progom" isn't arabic at all ...
I know it's like the egg and Chicken story ... who started first the Palestinian of the Jew ?
I'm perthaps biased but I do think that the sionist started it first ...
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I agree with you, straffo.
Before the land of the palestines was stolen, the arab nations were quite positive or at least neutral to the USA. (In fact most of them didnt knew that there was something like the USA :D)
Because of the history they mistrust the old colonial powers - like France or UK or Turkey - but they had no reason to hate the USA.
After WW2 the mad decision to construct Israel brought them to side with the USSR and so they became part of the cold war.
Its normal, that a country ignore crimes done by one of his own
allies.
Even today the USA is ignoring many of the terroristic acts of the
terroristic government of Israel - although some of the crimes have the "quality" of the Nazi massacres of WW2.
But its also normal, that the palestines and the arabs are not ignoring the fact that the USA - the so called fighter of world-wide-terrorism - is supporting (Israeli) terrorism.
This is a sad example how hate could be fueled to the madness we have all seen in September 2001.
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that said ... if Israel were to vanish into thin air this afternoon, do you think the Palestines would then enbrace Americans with open arms?
I don't think so, they hate us now and forever, even after any reason is forgotten. Sometimes I think they like the fight as they don't seem to have anything else to do? What do they produce as a national product? Anything beside terror and hate??
Their "fight" gives them "cause" to live ... what a waste..
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Originally posted by Eagler
that said ... if Israel were to vanish into thin air this afternoon, do you think the Palestines would then enbrace Americans with open arms?
Not today ... it take a lot of time ...
For exemple :
my grand-parent just HATE the German
my parent are not German friendly but don't hate them
I don't care of German people at all I just HATE any one who is not french (Just kidding ;))
It took a least 2 generation and a comon enemie (Varsovie pact) to overcome hate and I don't think that 100% of the French share my neutrality to the German I'm pretty sure it would be easy to find some French of my generation who hate the German more than my grand-parent ...
I don't think so, they hate us now and forever, even after any reason is forgotten. Sometimes I think they like the fight as they don't seem to have anything else to do? What do they produce as a national product? Anything beside terror and hate??
[/B]
Well actually they can't produce anything without land nor trading (correct use of the word ?)
In fact when we look at the last Arab-Israel war the main factor was not religion or Cold War ... the main factor was :WATER of the Joudain
Their "fight" gives them "cause" to live ... what a waste.. [/B]
On both side sadly :(
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Hi straffo.
You in France and I in Germany had the luck that our nations had great leaders like de Gaulle, Adenauer, Mitterand and Kohl.
These great politicians won over the hate between our people and were successful to build a stable friendship between the modern France and Germany.
In a few generations, when both countries have been fully integrated in the new unified Europe the hate of our grandparents will become a sad historical note.
Vive la France - lang lebe Deutschland :D :D :D :D
Its sad that in Israel/Palestine there are no such great and intelligent leaders who get such positive results for their people.
So the results are logical: German TV just reported that isareali military hordes killed 5 children and a woman with air-to-ground-fire.
In the next days we will surely get the next info how a palestine suicide fanatic killed some israeli children. And so on...
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I'm still astonished by what Adenauer and de Gaulle have done .
They were able to overcome almost 1 century of hate between our 2 country.
(The fact that the real French enemy is England helped IMO (J/K ;))
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Originally posted by Eagler
I have to side with Israel. They have been our allies, now and in the past, and the only country in the region that doesn't wish every American death.
LOL !
Hey Eagler, was that thing with Israel killing U.S troops in "USS Liberty" just a funny story or was it real incident?
If it is true you really don't need any enemies when your ally takes care of your ships and soldiers :D
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Couple links just for Eagler...
http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/ and http://www.ussliberty.org/
Nice allies you have :D
This (http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/images/k30000/k39927.jpg) ship sure looks like old egyptian horse transport ship ;)
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Originally posted by Staga
Couple links just for Eagler...
http://home.cfl.rr.com/gidusko/liberty/ and http://www.ussliberty.org/
Nice allies you have :D
thanks Staga
I think the British were once America's enemy too as were Germany, Italy, Japan to name a few ... :rolleyes:
At some point, you cut your losses, regroup and go forward ....
Nice to see who sides with terrorism, aka suicide bombers of women and children, and who doesn't. Wierd how Europe sees America as racist and backwards but can't seem to get itself past a basic hatred of Jews... how long have you guys felt this way?
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Originally posted by Eagler Nice to see who sides with terrorism, aka suicide bombers of women and children, and who doesn't. Wierd how Europe sees America as racist and backwards but can't seem to get itself past a basic hatred of Jews... how long have you guys felt this way?
If you think I'm racist or jew-hater you've been smokeing something else than Marlboro. Are you so blind you can't see whats happening over there?
Wake up and smell the coffee...
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>but can't seem to get itself past a basic hatred of Jews... how
>long have you guys felt this way?
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/Quarters/2130/
Wab
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If we search a bit Wabbit we will find some jew who hated the jew ...
Originally posted by Eagler
thanks Staga
I think the British were once America's enemy too as were Germany, Italy, Japan to name a few ... :rolleyes:
At some point, you cut your losses, regroup and go forward ....
Nice to see who sides with terrorism, aka suicide bombers of women and children, and who doesn't. Wierd how Europe sees America as racist and backwards but can't seem to get itself past a basic hatred of Jews... how long have you guys felt this way?
1st I've nothing against the jew 2nd I don't see all american has racist some are some not (like some French)
At some point, you cut your losses, regroup and go forward ....
That the point IMO ...when will it finally happen in middle east ?
I don't see any Adenauer nor de Gaulle in middle east :(
Nice to see who sides with terrorism, aka suicide bombers of women and children, and who doesn't
I've heard that eating fish is good to preserve memory ...
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What a sorry case you are AKWabbit. Why wonät you also check casualties of that group... They were good men fighting against russians.
Now Eagler and Wabbit: Here's something you boys should read if you think what I belive you're thinking:
The Second World War and Finnish Jewry
During the Finnish-Russian War of 1939-40 (the Winter War), Finnish Jews fought alongside their non-Jewish fellow countrymen. During the Finnish-Russian War of 1941-44, in which Finnish Jews also took part, Finland and Nazi-Germany were co-belligerents. Despite strong German pressure, the Finnish Government refused to take action against Finnish nationals of Jewish origin who thus continued to enjoy full civil rights throughout the War. There are many interesting anecdotes from this period, concerning, among others, the presence of a Jewish prayer tent on the Russian front virtually under the Nazi's noses and the food help given to Russian-Jewish POWs by the Jewish communities of Finland.
Quote from "Jewish Virtual Library; A Division of the American-Israeli Cooperative Enterprise"
In World War II, Finland was allied with Germany, and Finnish troops fought against the Soviet Union in an effort to regain the territory it lost in the Russo-Finnish War (1939-40). Fulfilling their obligations as loyal citizens, Finnish Jews answered the call to arms. Twenty-three of them lost their lives in the fighting, and most are buried in the Jewish cemetery in Helsinki. In gratitude for their heroism and loyalty in Finland's darkest hour, the country's leader, Marshal Mannerheim, paid a visit to the synagogue in Helsinki and presented the Jewish community with a wreath which is preserved to the present day as one of the most treasured heirlooms of Finnish Jewry.
Quote is from World Jewish Congress.
Finnish Jewry was spared the horrors of the Holocaust, in part due to the resolute stand of the Finnish authorities who refused to surrender Finnish Jews to the Germans.
When Himmler demanded that Finnish Jews be turned over to the Germans, Prime Minister Rangell is reported to have said that the Jews of Finland were decent people and loyal citizens whose sons fought in the army like other Finns.
Quote is from World Jewish Congress
btw one of the most beautiful girl I've ever met is a jew... ;)
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Well, we have succeeded in proving that no one is perfect and everyone has been involved in "atrocities" of one kind or another depending on who is defining the atrocity. Is there a way out?
maybe (http://www.cnn.com/2002/ALLPOLITICS/03/01/pol.play.saudi/)
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Heheheh...
Among the most dramatic potential loyalty conflicts were the encounters between Finnish Jewish officers and Nazi Germans, who were allied with Finland from 1941 to 1944. When a German Colonel Pilgrim had been rescued by a Finnish captain, then still Lieutenant Salomon Klass, the German offered his rescuer his thanks and the Iron Cross, which Klass however declined to accept. When the German heard that his rescuer was a Jew, he nevertheless shook the latter’s hand and said: "I personally have nothing against you as a Jew. Heil Hitler!" (Hannu Rautkallio: "Suomen juutalaisten aseveljeys", Jyväskylä 1989, p. 157-158) ["Finnish Jews as Germany’s Waffenbrüder"].
:D
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I'm not a big "conspiracy" promoter, but I frankly believe the crew's version of the incident over the Israeli version -- which is fairly weak in a number of areas and has changed repeatedly over the years. The motive is clear, and the event quite acceptable from a "why would they..." standpoint if you go from the premise that the Liberty was supposed to just disappear into the ocean one day. The problems only begin for Israel when the crew proved that the U.S. Navy worships damage control like no other sea power in the world, even on an old WW2 converted cargo vessel. Check out those sites Eagler, there’s even a strong anti-democrat angle at work with the story
I also don’t like the smear campaigns from Israeli supporters who seem to blindly accept Israel's position over that of American combat heroes. The common practice is an attempt to smear the crew as rabid anti-semites (including the Jewish members apparently) when the story is brought up or when memorials are proposed, like the library in Wisconsin. Yield the big Anti-Semite card to shut up the debate. During the History channel documentary, one Jewish crewman made sure to display his Cross of David when being interviewed.
Charon
Here is the gist of the attack, but the site is worth checking out. It's a lot of material to work through, but well worth the effort.
Eric Margolis, Toronto Sun, April 29, 2001 Toronto Sun | April 29, 2001 A new look at Israel's bombing of the USS Liberty By ERIC MARGOLIS Contributing Foreign Editor On the fourth day of the 1967 Arab-Israeli War, the intelligence ship USS Liberty was steaming slowly in international waters, 14 miles off the Sinai Peninsula. Israeli armoured forces were racing deep into the Sinai in hot pursuit of the retreating Egyptian Army. Liberty, a World War II freighter, had been converted into an intelligence vessel by the top-secret U.S. National Security Agency, and packed with the latest signals and electronic interception equipment.
The ship bristled with antennae and electronic "ears" including TRSSCOMM, which delivered real-time intercepts to Washington. It was to monitor communications of the belligerents in the third Arab-Israeli war: Israel and her foes, Egypt, Syria and Jordan. At 0800 hrs, 8 June, 1967, eight Israeli recon flights flew over Liberty, which was flying a large American flag. At 1400, waves of Israeli Mystere and Mirage-III fighter-bombers attacked with rockets, napalm, and cannon, concentrating on the ship's antennae and electronic dishes. Liberty was left afire, listing. Eight of her crew lay dead, 100 wounded, including Commander William McGonagle.
At 1424, Israeli torpedo boats attacked, raking the burning Liberty with 20 and 40 mm shells. At 1431 a torpedo hit the Liberty amidships, where the signals intelligence systems were located. Twenty-five more Americans died. At 1515, the crew were ordered to abandon ship. Israeli warships poured machine-gun fire into the life rafts, sinking two. As American sailors were being massacred, a rescue mission by U.S. Sixth Fleet carrier aircraft was aborted on orders from the White House. An hour after the attack, Israeli warships and planes returned. Commander McGonagle gave the order to repel boarders, but the Israelis, probably fearing intervention by the Sixth Fleet, departed. Liberty was shattered but defiant, her flag still flying.
Israeli attacks killed 34 U.S. seamen and wounded 171 out of a crew of 297, the worst loss of U.S. naval personnel from hostile action since World War II. Less than an hour after the attack, Israel told Washington its forces had committed a "tragic error." Later, Israel said it had mistaken Liberty for an ancient Egyptian horse transport. U.S. Secretary of State, Dean Rusk, and Joint Chiefs of Staff head, Adm. Thomas Moorer, insisted the Israeli attack was deliberate. So did three CIA reports. One asserted Israel's defence minister, Gen. Moshe Dayan, had ordered the attack. Reports that the savaging of Liberty was deliberate were hushed up by President Lyndon Johnson and Defence Secretary Robert McNamara. The White House and Congress accepted Israel's explanation. Israel later paid a token reparation of US$6 million.
But surviving Liberty crew members would not be silenced. They kept demanding an inquiry and tried to tell their story of a deliberate attack to the media. Israel's government worked behind the scenes to thwart these efforts, going so far as having pro-Israeli groups accuse Liberty's survivors of being "anti-Semites" and "Israel-haters." Major TV networks cancelled interviews with the crew. A book about Liberty by James Ennes was dropped from distribution. The attack on Liberty faded into obscurity until last week, when intelligence expert James Bamford came out with Body of Secrets, his latest book about the National Security Agency. In a stunning revelation, Bamford writes that unknown to Israel, a U.S. Navy EC-121 intelligence aircraft, flying overhead, electronically recorded the attack. The U.S. aircraft crew provides evidence Israeli pilots knew they were attacking a U.S. Navy ship flying the American flag.
Why try to sink a vessel of a benefactor and ally? Most likely because Liberty's intercepts contradicted Israel's claim, made at the war's start on June 5, that Egypt had attacked Israel, and that Israel's air assault on three Arab nations was in retaliation. In fact, Israel began the war by a devastating, Pearl Harbor-style attack that caught the Arabs in bed and destroyed their air forces. Washington had warned Israel not to invade Syria, which had remained inactive while Israel fought Egypt. Bamford says Israel's planned offensive against Syria was abruptly postponed when Liberty appeared off Sinai, then launched once it was knocked out of action. Israel's claim Syria had attacked first could have been disproved by Liberty. Liberty's intercepts also may have shown Israel seized upon rising Arab-Israeli tensions in May-June, 1967 to launch a long-planned war to invade and annex the West Bank, Jerusalem, Golan and Sinai.
Far more shocking was Washington's response. Writes Bamford: "Despite the overwhelming evidence that Israel attacked the ship and killed American servicemen deliberately, the Johnson administration and Congress covered up the entire incident." Why? Domestic politics. Johnson preferred to cover up the attack rather than anger a key constituency and fiscal backer of the Democrats. Congress was even less eager to touch this "third rail" issue. Commander McGonagle was quietly awarded the Medal of Honor for his and his men's heroism - not in the White House, but in an obscure ceremony at the Washington Navy Yard. Crew members' graves were inscribed, "Died in the Eastern Mediterranean." A member of President Johnson's staff believed that Johnson offered Jewish liberals unconditional backing of Israel, and a coverup of the Liberty attack, in exchange for liberals toning down their criticism of his policies in Vietnam. Israel, which claims it fought a war of self-defence in 1967, will be displeased by Bamford's revelations.
Those who believe Israel illegally occupies the West Bank and Golan will be emboldened. More important, the U.S. government's coverup of the premeditated attack on Liberty has now burst into the open and demands an investigation. After 34 years, the voices of Liberty's dead and wounded seamen must finally be heard.
Eric can be reached by e-mail at margolis@foreigncorrespondent.com. Letters to the editor should be sent to editor@sunpub.com.
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Hey thats why I posted the link. It had that stuff about the fins not murdering their own jews.
But of course, they were aiding and abbetting a country that was murdering them by the millions.
They had no moral qualms about putting on Waffen SS uniforms.
But other that that, they were squeaky clean. :)
(The only reason I wind you up staga is because you're so much fun to watch spin around in circles. Zieg Heil!)
regards,
Wab
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I imagine that anyone who wanted to could claim that their lands have been illegaly occupied. Why is that term is used so freely when describing the mid east clusterdiddly?
The borders of most of the countries in the Mid east are nothing more than a colonial redistricting project started by the Allies after the war.
Hell The UK occupied most of the free world at one time or another. The US was formed after taking land from the Brits (who took it from the indians) Empires have expanded and withdrawn for centuries and I imagine Israel's tiny little empire will withdraw someday also.
Might may not make right, but it tends to be the way things have been done through out history. Face it if the parties of the mid east wanted peace they were a signature away (arafat's) slightly less than 2 years ago. You can disguies your hatred for the Jews or the Palistineans in any retoric you care too, but the bottom line is that Israel is there to stay. Killing 20 people here or 20 people there is not going to force them out. The same goes for Israel, they can blow up as many houses as they want, but the Palistineans are not going anyplace.
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So AKWabbit did you read those quotes and if you did what do you think about them?
I would also like to hear your thoughts about our army now when you learned that we had also jews fighting against russians.
never mind; I type too slowly... I spent too much time to search more information about few things. Maybe I'll post them later ;)
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plato postulated that people's unhappiness arose from their ignorance and seperation from truths.
it's nice to hear people starting from square one and reasoning out their opinion on the middle east - regardless of the outcome.
sadly a few will always go straight to their guidebook of acceptable patriotic statements on israel and quote verbatim the same ol' song and dance about how buddy buddy we are with them. why do you say that? because that's what your father or the guys at the mill said? is it really that much easier to just spit out the provided answer? you get kicked outta your football buddies circle if you don't take the right view?
it doesn't seem worth it really, because keeping public opinion placated and blind only delays the problem.....we wouldn't be worried about mending fences with the arabs if we had thought it through honestly in '48 and every year since. in the end the people have to do the mending or the dieing - not the opinion makers. whther they get it right or wrong they still toss our masses into the blade to solve it.
a few policy makers tend to keep those ideas circulating. how they stir a nation full of minds in such an easy hypnotic fashion has always intrigued me. finally the populace gets sick of hearing about war and death and takes an honest look at the problem.
isn't it funny how when that big public push comes the ideas seem to take a 180? put down your ditto and think man! your mind can be a point not just an open door.point it at the issue for real.
skewed news coverage isn't even softening the growing awareness of israeli sin. look at the former pattern:
day one: israelis rocket some houses. = corresponding news story: "israel struck at terrorists"= public apathy, brain discards story and waits for sports scores
day two: palestinians fight back with a bomb = corresponding news story: evil terrorists initiate attack against israelis, world stunned, outraged and confused. "we just dont understand..."= public outrage sabre rattling
i guarantee you that 80% of americans never made the connection. but they will. moreso every damn day and that gets a :D
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alright, where's udie? :)
I was gonna stay out of this thread as it is old rehashed jibberish which doesn't accomplish dink but raise somes blood pressure, but it was one sided, all against Caligula so I jumped in with my 2 cents. Well maybe .05 cents ...
all - as we are really all the same in the end.. just our ignorance keeps us separated.
maybe our grandchildrens' grandchildren will see a peaceful world .... somehow I doubt it, too many make a living out of division.
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This (http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/04/News/News.44530.html) is just as diddlyed up as what the palestinians did.Whoever is responsible must pay for it.
But as in the past it`ll be just the start of the next cycle of death and suffering.
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Originally posted by Eagler
maybe our grandchildrens' grandchildren will see a peaceful world .... somehow I doubt it, too many make a living out of division.
I do agree (on the doubt)
Didn't wait the proof long ...
Originally posted by ~Caligula~
This (http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/04/News/News.44530.html) is just as diddlyed up as what the palestinians did.Whoever is responsible must pay for it.
But as in the past it`ll be just the start of the next cycle of death and suffering.
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It seems that a lot of you didn't read the last part of my message.
I have a story and you have a story. You don't except mine and I don't yours. The only answer is ridding the land of the Arab foreighners, and readmiting those who are willing to help build up Israels economy and security. Yes that means war.
There is not point for me bringing a deed, because you will throw it out, out of not wanting to hear me.
The Torah is my document, but that is a silly thing....right?
There is a lot of archeological proof, that my ancestors lived there.
But, that is neither here or there, because you couldn't give a dang. Lets fight, we'll send the arabs packing and get it over with.
Maybe we can finally be friends.
--yatziv
btw:this isn`t me but a friend of mine who read this tread ,and wanted to reply
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Of course the Jews come from that area who in their right mind would dispute this fact. Jews are mid eastern people, they are the same ethnic group as the Palestenians. But this also means that the Palestenians are from there too.
Listen you two will have to learn to live together, because one side can't kill all the other side while one isn't allowed to.
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if instr(1,"Of course the Jews come from that area who in their right mind would dispute this fact. Jews are mid eastern people, they are the same ethnic group as the Palestenians. But this also means that the Palestenians are from there too. Listen you two will have to learn to live together, because one side can't kill all the other side while one isn't allowed to. ","Communist",1)>1 then
"Welcome back Grun"
else
"Syntax error, does not compute !!! Halting Kernel"
end if
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
This (http://www.jpost.com/Editions/2002/03/04/News/News.44530.html) is just as diddlyed up as what the palestinians did.Whoever is responsible must pay for it.
But as in the past it`ll be just the start of the next cycle of death and suffering.
Yes, terrible accident
the difference i see though, is that one side apologizes for killing innocents and I'm pretty sure someone will be held accountable for the misdeed, (even if its just a written record of an oral reprimand in the tank commanders file), while the other side targets women and children, cheers each of their deaths and exalts the murder as a martyr and national hero..... :(
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Yes, terrible accident
the difference i see though, is that one side apologizes for killing innocents and I'm pretty sure someone will be held accountable for the misdeed, (even if its just a written record of an oral reprimand in the tank commanders file), while the other side targets women and children, cheers each of their deaths and exalts the murder as a martyr and national hero.....
Aggreed
Besides that the IDF`s intention was to kill a hamas leader, not just random civilians like the arabs usually do.
If any of You can`t see the difference,than I don`t know what`s wrong with You people.
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"The Torah is my document, but that is a silly thing....right?
There is a lot of archeological proof, that my ancestors lived there. But, that is neither here or there, because you couldn't give a dang. Lets fight, we'll send the arabs packing and get it over with."
that's why: an unguarded moment of truth-telling, not the phony apologies and excuses offered to satiate the west.
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Hatred
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What the hell is wrong with that post in your eyes fd ski?
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Originally posted by mrfish
"The Torah is my document, but that is a silly thing....right?
There is a lot of archeological proof, that my ancestors lived there. But, that is neither here or there, because you couldn't give a dang. Lets fight, we'll send the arabs packing and get it over with."
that's why: an unguarded moment of truth-telling, not the phony apologies and excuses offered to satiate the west.
Quite a bit different tone from his 1st post..........
now its "Why dont they just let us kill them peacefully"
Esther was a good book :rolleyes:
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Wotan said :
Quite a bit different tone from his 1st post..........
now its "Why dont they just let us kill them peacefully"
Esther was a good book
Well that is the point isn't it. Again you aren't listening, we are just arguing our points. The EU the Arab sumit think it is all right that the Arabs murder Jews. I am not talking about murdering anybody; I would perfer that the Arabs go to their own lands (Jordan, Syria, Lebonon,etc) in peace, but it seems that every body is picking a side. Or at least that is the way I see it. I am an American, that means I believe in the inaliable rights of humans, and I can't see that the mideaster countries try to apperciate human lives except in Israel and Turkey. America is the Head country because its righteousness, and America is on the side of Israel for that same reason too.
I have excellent arguements against Arabs occuping my land, but the point is we don't see each other eye to eye. What other option do we have except war.
Wotan please don't point out the meanings you think you understand about the holy history of the Jews. I am taking the opinion that you are a gentile or a unlearned Jew. And as such your interpretations of a story that was wrote by Jews for Jews to understand and use; I feel you miss understand the meanings intended, because of cultural and national differances.
A little insight Haman wanted to murder ALL the Jews. We Jews are not interested in Murdering anybody, just living a natural safe life in our own counrty.That meant Jews had to destroy Haman and he`s followers.Arabs are trying to destroy Israel and the Jews in that region.Something has to be done. If that takes the expoltion of Arabs, (I stress not murder) then so be it. Repeat Haman wanted to send the Jews to the after world. I hope you can start to see the difference.
--Yatziv
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ
What the hell is wrong with that post in your eyes fd ski?
it's because you just come with a wise statement (and you've not exploded like usualy :)):
Listen you two will have to learn to live together, because one side can't kill all the other side while one isn't allowed to.
Wich is the forgotten goal (by both sides of the conflict)
Personnaly I just hope that Palestinian and Jew can live together in peace but it's not likely :(
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This is for people who have not made up their minds in this matter.
We read in the book of Nehemiah that the Arabs attacked Jews in Judah and Sumerian. It is very similar to what they are doing today except for two major parts. 1) They (the Arabs) didn't have explosions 2) they didn't attack from with in the borders of modern day Israel. The reasons are simple 1) there where not explosive at that time period 2) The Arabs had to travel from their land into the Kingdom of Judah to attack Jews. Proof that they Arabs where not in the land at the time.
We read in the Josephus’s book “The Jewish War” that the Jews had to mount an attack on the Arab because, the Arabs where raiding the villages within the Kingdom of Judah.
We know that the Jews where not forced out en-mass till appox. 168 C.E. There where still a large community of Jews in the province of Palestine (as the Roman Emperor Augustus called it.) until the 4th century C.E. At that time the land held little Jews, Christians and pagans. The land became barren because there wasn’t anybody to tend the fields or replant the trees. The land of Palestine/Judah/Israel became a desert.
Israel and Jerusalem never held a special place to the Arabs. (Arabs are the people that the media convinced the world to think as of Palestinians)
When Mohammed sought to convert the Jews in the 620s C.E. , he adopted several Jewish-style practices - a Yom Kippur-like fast, a synagogue-like place of worship, kosher-style food restrictions - and also tachanun - like prayers while facing Jerusalem. But when most Jews rejected Mohammed's overtures, the Koran changed the prayer direction to Mecca and Jerusalem lost importance for Moslems.
Jerusalem regained stature a few decades later when rulers of the Umayyad dynasty sought ways to enhance the importance of their territories. One way was by building two monumental religious structures in Jerusalem, the Dome of the Rock in 691 and Al-Aqsa Mosque in 715. Then the Umayyads did something tricky: The Koran states that God took Mohammed "by night from the sacred mosque in Mecca to the furthest (al-aqsa) place of worship." When this passage was revealed (about 621), "furthest place of worship" was a turn of phrase, not a specific place. Decades later, the Umayyads built a mosque in Jerusalem and called it Al-Aqsa. Moslems since then understand the passage about the "furthest place of worship" as referring to Jerusalem. But when the Umayyads fell in 750, Jerusalem lapsed into near obscurity.
The Crusader conquest of Jerusalem in 1099 evinced little Moslem reaction at first. Then, as a Moslem counter-crusade developed, so did a whole literature extolling the virtues of Jerusalem. As a result, at about this time Jerusalem came to be seen as Islam's third most holy city. Then, safely back in Moslem hands in 1187, the city lapsed into its usual obscurity. The population declined, even the defensive walls fell.
Only when British troops reached Jerusalem in 1917, did Moslims reawaken to the city's importance. Palestinian leaders made Jerusalem a centerpiece of their campaign against Zionism. When the Jordanians won the old city in 1948, Moslems predictably lost interest again in Jerusalem. It reverted to a provincial backwater, deliberately degraded by the Jordanians in favor of Amman, their capital. Taking out a bank loan, subscribing to telephone service, or registering a postal package required a trip to Amman. Jordanian radio transmitted the Friday sermon not from Al-Aqsa but from a minor mosque in Amman. Jerusalem also fell off the Arab diplomatic map: the PLO covenant of 1964 did not mention it. No Arab leader (other than King Hussein, and he rarely) visited there.
The Israeli conquest. When Israel captured the city in June 1967, Moslem interest in Jerusalem again surged. The 1968 PLO covenant mentioned Jerusalem by name. Revolutionary Iran created a Jerusalem Day and placed the city on bank notes. Money flooded into the city to build it up. Thus have politics, more than religious sentiments, driven Moslim interest in Jerusalem through history.
We see from this discussion that the Arabs have a masculinity problem. Like taking a ball from a child who didn't even notice the ball till you started to play with it. To add fire to insult, the weakest nation in the world(Jewish) the wonders and parasites of other nations, defeated the “mighty” Arabs. Of coarse I understand that it must hurt their feelings. But, I can’t feel sorry for them, they have theirs I want what is mine. G-d how long did we wait and the thousands of prayers, to return to see our home land.
--yatziv
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
There is a lot of archeological proof, that my ancestors lived there.
There is a lot of archeological and historic proof that my ancestors discovered, lived, evangelized and colonized actual USA territory (including Alaska), so be ready to evacuate cause u are living now into a spanish crown territory :p
Then some indian will come to us and will tell us the same story and so on.
How many centuries has been these territories living without any contact with the Jewish comunity? Is a religion a major cause to ask for a country ownership? Are the mormons going to ask for a country cause all they are mormons? Are the christians going to ask their rights over actual Israel territory cause their religion was born there?
IMO, separatism based on religion is just a cancer, one of the major cancers in human history.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
...There is a lot of archeological proof...
You care ... I don't
This who was 1st here discution is simply childish , idiotic,anecdotic and lead to war .
Fact is that YOU (*) have to live together PERIOD.
But it suppose to get ride (on both side) of your wacky dirigeants.
(*) Israely and Palestinian
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Caligula why don't you own up to the fact that Jews and Palestinians are the same people? toejam Arafat and Sharon look like brothers for god's sake. You both belong there, you have to figure out a way to coexist.
There will be no fantasy mass expulsion of Palestinians from the area in long term nor any fantasy mass extermination of Jews in the long term, why can't you people figure this out?
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There will be no fantasy mass expulsion of Palestinians from the area in long term nor any fantasy mass extermination of Jews in the long term, why can't you people figure this out?
Good diddlyin question dude.
Why don`t You give them some guidelines on how to start?
I think exporting some leftover Hippies would be a good start.
People would get high,drop acid,sing around the campfire and stick flowers in the gunbarrels together.
God...if it was only that simple.
I`m just as sick of this whole ongoing BS as You are,I really am.
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by Tamir Sorek. Sergeant 1st class. Army Intelligence. IDF.
In 1967, a new state was born in the Middle East on territory that was known by the Jews as the "Land of Israel" and by the Arabs as "Palestine." This state was established as an outcome of the forced unification of a number of territories that before then had been ruled by different states. The three most populated areas in the new state were: the territory ruled by Israel from 1948-67, the West Bank, formerly under Jordanian rule, and the Gaza Strip, formerly under Egyptian rule.
The administrative and symbolic contiguity that was established between the state of Israel and the new state caused many to assume that these two political bodies were identical. In fact, June 1967, led to such a qualitative change that it is necessary to look at the new body as a different state entirely. This is in reference not only to the tremendous territorial gains nor to the fact that its population was about 1/3 the size of the state of Israel. The most important element of all was the complete renunciation by the new state of its ambition of being for the most part a democratic state. In truth, the state of Israel was not a model of democracy. A military government ruled over its Arab citizens and they suffered discrimination in contrast to Jewish citizens. That being said, the declaration of independence, which was the closest thing to a constitution for the young state, expressed a declared readiness to found a democratic regime that protected the rights of all persons irrespective of race or religion. In that context, the end of the military government in 1966 ushered in the possible beginning of a process that would have turned the state of Israel into the only democracy in the Middle East.
The new state that was established, "the State of Greater Israel," was not bound by the declaration of independence of the State of Israel and did not aspire to be a democratic state. The borders of this state as presented, for example, on the weather forecasts in the press, radio, and television, included the entire territory between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. In geography and "Homeland" classes, students in public schools of this state learned about the borders of their country that extended from the Mediterranean to the Jordan River. Afterwards those same students learned about the principles of democracy in civics classes: the form of government in which the people elects its rulers. What was never taught in those schools was the simple fact that the system of democratic rule was applicable only vis-?-vis part of the territories that the state ruled. The fact that about ¼ of the residents of the new state were denied civil rights, could not elect their rulers or be elected, and lived under military rule was left out of the lesson plan.
Over time it has become clear that the distinction between the two forms of rule is not necessarily territorial. A significant number of residents from the territory under the authority of an elected parliament moved into the areas under military rule—the West Bank and Gaza Strip. And miracle of miracles, those residents continued to preserve their right to elect and be elected as well as other rights—for example freedom of expression and freedom to organize—which were kept from the older residents. This is how two groups came to be in the areas under military rule—Jews, who enjoyed full civil rights, and in contrast, Palestinian Arabs (upon whose confiscated land the new residents settled), who were denied all civil rights, including the right to immigrate to the civil part of the state. At the schools of those with rights they continued to teach that discrimination on the basis of racial, ethnic, national or religious background is a horrible thing against which human beings must struggle. In that context many hours were devoted to studying the racism that was aimed at the Jews in Europe, yet no classes were devoted to discuss the condition of the non-citizens of the state, residents of the West Bank and Gaza Strip.
The uprising of the deprived habitants of "the Greater State of Israel" in 1987 was inevitable and self-evident. Since then, some serious attempts have been made to settle the issue. These attempts failed because of the shortsightedness and irresponsibility of leaders from both the deprived and the privileged camps. However, until now, the deprived habitants are still desperately demanding their rights. The obvious facts that their uprising includes hideous assaults against innocent privileged people do not subtract from the legitimacy of their claim for freedom from non-elected rule.
The people upon whom the responsibility for suppressing the uprising has been inflicted are the students of the confusing educational system of "the Greater State of Israel." That system on the one hand preached democracy and condemned discrimination based on racial origin, yet on the other hand drew maps that gave legitimacy to a non-democratic racist regime. Today, hundreds of diligent students who learned the essence of democracy in civics classes are demanding to implement its principles in reality, or at least not to demand that they defend in practice the existence of a non-democratic regime. By this deed they are accused by the right wing of treachery and by the left wing of undermining the principles of a democratic regime (!)
There are those who do not rank civic equality and democracy high on their list of values. With those people, of course, I can hardly establish a dialogue. It is still possible to argue with those who still believe in democracy about the desired form of implementing its principles. One large state in which all of its citizens would enjoy equal rights, or division into two independent states in which its own citizens will enjoy equal rights. Yet there is one thing about which there can be no argument: whoever refuses to take part in denying civil rights to millions of people does not endanger democracy, rather he fights for it.
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The PLO are tools. They're simply being used to keep the area unstable and in choas. Certain powers want/need this for various reasons. The worst thing that could possiably happen for some IS peace. The sad thing is that niether side seems to see this. They simply repeat the SOS over and over...
xBAT
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escalating by the minute ....
so what happens when Israel pulls out the stops and eliminates Palestine, basically "conquering" the land mass and taking over, (whats left) having complete control of the area...
what will the countries that back Palestine do?
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Israel screwed up when they didn`t give citizenship to the arabs after the war in 1967.But You can`t forget that these were the people who were about to destry Isreael and "push the jews into the sea".
The argument is not about wether the jews or arabs were there first.It`s about how one side would treat the other if they were in power.Looking at other arab states it`s obvious that non muslims have no rights and are treated like crap by those governments.What would be the point of Israel if it`s government would persecute jews ,just because they`re jews.
Besides that the arabs don`t want a joint government and country where jews and arabs live together,they want the jews out of there or dead.
In the peace process in the previous few years the palestinians were just about to get all the rights and privileges of a jewish citizen of Israel,but they didn`t want it.While they had autority over the west bank and Gaza they did absolutelly nothing to bring up it`s economy,and they remained in poverty.They kept on harrasing Israelis by terror attacks to the point where the patience ran out.
They want the jews out of a land they have allready conquered for islam.In their mind Islamic land can not be given up,no matter if it`s absolutelly no use for them.
Israel was founded so the Jewish nation that was scattered all over the world (yes it`s a nation ,not just a religion) can have it`s own country and don`t have to be in the mercy of some foreign country`s non jewish government anymore.
Israel is there to stay,and it`s a huge stain on the arab`s pride.
That country is so small compared to the arab world.If all these arabs are so uncomfortable under a non muslim rule,why can`t they just move a 100 miles in any direction ,and be under muslim rule?Or mellow out and start the peace-process again,but on a secound tought I doub`t anyone would trust eachoder anymore after all the horror both sides caused to one and other.
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What a ridiculous argumentation.
The Arabs are not a homogene race or nation.
The land of the Paestines belongs to them. It was stolen by an illegitime UNO-resolution and for decades they have to suffer under israeli terror.
Your suggestion would be as logical as the following:
Let the UNO decide per majority that the jews can live in the territory of the Netherlands.
The people who lived there before could go to the neighboring countries - these are also white christian nations - so whats the problem. They have so many land - so surely they wont oppose this idea and give happily the foreigners their land.
Lets face the fact:
As long as Israel continues its terror it will not integrate in the region and be a foreign body. A foreign body which needs supports from outside to survive.
Today the support from the european countries and also in Germany is reduced more and more.
And finally - maybe in decades maybe in a shorter time - this foreign body will fall under the pressure.
If the Israeli government continues to act like the leadership of Nazi Germany decades before in the occupied territories, it deserves this fate.
The only chance for both people to live in peace in the region will come, when moderate and intelligent politicians act - like DeGaulle and Adenauer after WW2.
But when the radical faniatics on both sides continue their mad work Israel will finally be destroyed.
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so what happens when Israel pulls out the stops and eliminates Palestine, basically "conquering" the land mass and taking over, (whats left) having complete control of the area...
what will the countries that back Palestine do?
Israel has already done that, and it didn't solve anything.
There are about 4 - 4.5 million Arabs living in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.
What do you suggest Israel does with them?
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oh i see so your phony-ass god told you israel was yours forever so that's your authority.
obviously with that mindset you would never accept the arabs living there as anything but slaves so don't pretend there's a peaceful solution. you shot doen the resolution to share in '48 and you never had any intention other than conquest. but you zionists were total wussies about it because you had to have the UN do all your dirty-work.
no wonder the bible, torah etc are all so full of strife, war, cheating, backstabbing and smiting - a god invented by jews to express their fantasies.
i'd recognize israel in a second if you all promised to move there and stay out of my country.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
Israel has already done that, and it didn't solve anything.
There are about 4 - 4.5 million Arabs living in Israel, the West Bank and Gaza.
What do you suggest Israel does with them?
I don't know. I was thinking more along the lines of total domination whereas Israel sets up a police state, they in turn go door to door and dig out any against the "new" government, etc...
Not that I think this is the solution but I see this as a possible course of action given Israel’s superior military might. Then they would be in total control, control of any and all news/reports coming out of the area and would handle the problem even rougher than they are doing now.
Doesn’t Palestine worry about this? Wouldn't what they have now be better than that? Do they think/know the neighboring countries would rush to their aid militarily?
Just questions that I don't know the answers to. I'd really be pissed if this were to escalate into WW3 or the like... just hard to comprehend countries smaller than the size of some of our states with populations the size of our cities causing all this trouble and unrest for the entire world...
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Israeli supperior military strength comes directly from the us.
I would support the us suppling the palistinians with the same military capabilities as the Zionist State.
That way you wussies could feel better when the violence between equal military forces. Maybe that would shut up half the folks who say "Israeli Violence" is justified because it originates as a military excersive. They always ignore acts of Israeli militant violence.
These same people ignore the fact that the palistinians are only resisting with the tools they have.
Eagler please describe when Israell has proven to be our friend? Its currently a one sided affair. The US providing the tools they need to maintain their racist Zionist state. Not only is this wrong and against what America claims to stand for but it guarrantees the same problems the US now faces in the middle east.
The palistinians are just goy, cattle to be put down to make room for the racist Zionist philosphy to expand.
Read about the liberty in the links above......
what a friend we have in Israel. lol
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I don't know. I was thinking more along the lines of total domination whereas Israel sets up a police state, they in turn go door to door and dig out any against the "new" government, etc...
Like I said, they already tried that.
Go and read up on the conditions in the Gaza strip and West Bank in the 70s and 80s under Israeli occupation.
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The Core of Muslim Rage
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
The latest death toll in the Indian violence between Hindus and Muslims is 544 people, many of them Muslims. Why is it that when Hindus kill hundreds of Muslims it elicits an emotionally muted headline in the Arab media, but when Israel kills a dozen Muslims, in a war in which Muslims are also killing Jews, it inflames the entire Muslim world?
I raise this point not to make some idiot press critique or engage in cheap Arab-bashing. This is a serious issue. In recent weeks, whenever Arab Muslims told me of their pain at seeing Palestinians brutalized by Israelis on their TV screens every night, I asked back: Why are you so pained about Israelis brutalizing Palestinians, but don't say a word about the brutality with which Saddam Hussein has snuffed out two generations of Iraqis using murder, fear and poison gas? I got no good answers.
Because the real answer is rooted in something very deep. It has to do with the contrast between Islam's self-perception as the most ideal and complete expression of the three great monotheistic religions — Judaism, Christianity and Islam — and the conditions of poverty, repression and underdevelopment in which most Muslims live today.
As a U.S. diplomat in the Middle East said to me, Israel — not Iraq, not India — is "a constant reminder to Muslims of their own powerlessness." How could a tiny Jewish state amass so much military and economic power if the Islamic way of life — not Christianity or Judaism — is God's most ideal religious path?
When Hindus kill Muslims it's not a story, because there are a billion Hindus and they aren't part of the Muslim narrative. When Saddam murders his own people it's not a story, because it's in the Arab-Muslim family. But when a small band of Israeli Jews kills Muslims it sparks rage — a rage that must come from Muslims having to confront the gap between their self-perception as Muslims and the reality of the Muslim world.
I have long believed that it is this poverty of dignity, not a poverty of money, that is behind a lot of Muslim rage today and the reason this rage is sharpest among educated, but frustrated, Muslim youth. It is they who perpetrated 9/11 and who slit the throat of the Wall Street Journal reporter Danny Pearl — after reportedly forcing him to declare on film, "I am a Jew and my mother is a Jew."
This is not to say that U.S. policy is blameless. We do bad things sometimes. But why is it that only Muslims react to our bad policies with suicidal terrorism, not Mexicans or Chinese? Is it because Arab-Muslim conspiracy theories state that Jews could not be so strong on their own — therefore the only reason Israel could be strong, and Muslims weak, is because the U.S. created and supports Israel?
The Muslim world needs to take an honest look at this rage. Look what it has done to Palestinian society — where the flower of Palestinian youth now celebrate suicide against Jews as a source of dignity. That is so bad. Yes, there is an Israeli occupation, and that occupation has been hugely distorting of Palestinian life. But the fact is this: If Palestinians had said, "We are going to oppose the Israeli occupation, with nonviolent resistance, as if we had no other options, and we are going to build a Palestinian society, schools and economy, as if we had no occupation" — they would have had a quality state a long time ago. Instead they have let the occupation define their whole movement and become Yasir Arafat's excuse for not building jobs and democracy.
Only Muslims can heal their own rage. But the West, and particularly the Jewish world, should help. Because this rage poses an existential threat to Israel. Three broad trends are now converging: (1) The worst killing ever between Israelis and Palestinians; (2) a baby boom in the Arab-Muslim world, where about half the population is under 20; (3) an explosion of Arab satellite TV and Internet, which are taking the horrific images from the intifada and beaming them directly to the new Arab- Muslim generation. If 100 million Arab-Muslims are brought up with these images, Israel won't survive.
Some of this hatred will remain no matter what Israel does. But to think that Israel's exiting the occupied territories — and abandoning its insane settlement land grab there — wouldn't reduce this problem is absurd.
Israel cannot do it alone. But it has to do all it can to get this show off the air. It would take away an important card from the worst Muslim anti- Semites and it would help strengthen those Muslims, and there are many of them, who know that the suicidal rage of their fanatics is dragging down their whole civilization.
From the NYTimes (http://www.nytimes.com/2002/03/06/opinion/06FRIE.html)
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"The Core of Muslim Rage
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN"
- and you don't think the author's name reveals a bias?
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- and you don't think the author's name reveals a bias?
And you don`t think there`s truth in what he has to say?
mrfish u`re one bigot antisemitic,racist son of a squeak.
a shame of human kind.
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Originally posted by mrfish
"The Core of Muslim Rage
By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN"
- and you don't think the author's name reveals a bias?
LOL
Yes mrfish - you are right.
The article has many faults and is not worth of further comments.
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" is "a constant reminder to Muslims of their own powerlessness." How could a tiny Jewish state amass so much military and economic power if the Islamic way of life — not Christianity or Judaism — is God's most ideal religious path?"
i'll tell you how, the u.s. gave them their military and their country with dollars from the fruits of american labor and industry. even the technology you dangle over the arabs was bought by u.s. workers.
no wimpy, flacid little seinfeld or woody allen would last a minute against your average arab without a u.s. made f-16 to protect him. what'r they gonna do whine them to death!?
i think it's perfectly legit to point out that it is a jew reporter writing a piece about how the arabs can make things all better in the middle east. like we didn't get enough of that from larry king, wolf blitzer, greenfield at large...and all the anonymous writers hiding behind them...ad nauseum
no doubt you'd rather the masses never noticed that.
your parasitic people have milked the good natured (if not very critical) american public for long enough.
they never meant for the palestinians to go through all that, they just tried to help you out with a homeland. you may underestimate how hard the public can react when they realize they've been taken. they are only generous to a point and then even the good ol boys will start to catch on.
the u.s. isn't entirely in your pocket yet schmutz.
at heart the american people don't want to be a part of this charade in the middle east...they just want to do what's right - eventually the bought-and-paid-for politician's magic tonic will wear off. what will happen to israel when you are left alone there to reap what you've sown.
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Ok here are more texts from "antisemites". Read them carefully as I think they are far better qualified to speak about the matter than some fat bellybutton lobby payed columnist.
Asaf Oron. Sergeant 1st class. Infantry. IDF
http://www.seruv.org.il/signers/AsafOroneng.asp
Dan Tamir. Captain. Paratroopers. IDF
http://www.seruv.org.il/signers/dantamir.asp
Tar Belo. Staff Sergeant. Armored Corps. IDF.
(This one cries 'Nam! in your face)
http://www.seruv.org.il/signers/TalBeloeng.asp
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
And you don`t think there`s truth in what he has to say?
mrfish u`re one bigot antisemitic,racist son of a squeak.
a shame of human kind.
So is this that "Antisemitic" card everyone is talking about when pro-israel people run out of excuses :D
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CC - its their last kind of argumentation - but meanwhile no one take this serious anymore, especially when you see day by day that israeli military hordes behave in the same terroristic matter like the Nazi troops decades before...
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
And you don`t think there`s truth in what he has to say?
mrfish u`re one bigot antisemitic,racist son of a squeak.
a shame of human kind.
tss tss ... pretty low argument ... in fact I don't see any in your post :)
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tss tss ... pretty low argument ... in fact I don't see any in your post
I don`t really care what You see in that post.
mrfish have stated in many of he`s posts how much he dislikes jewish people and jews as a nation.That is what`s called antisemitism.
Jews as a nation have survived for some 5000 years.There`s no other nation on earth that can come even close to that.So they must be doing something right.
He calls jews parasites.
How about all the Noble price winners and all the other inventions (stock market,court of law etc.) that were first created by the jews long before the western civilization risen?
How about jews helping founding the american revolution?
There`s quiet a lot that human kind owes to the jewish people,
but jews have allways ended up as scapegoats,blamed for the troubles of the world,for the simple readon of being different.
It`s easy to kick back in your cozy SF apartment and bash on people who`s country is in constant war.But I`m yet to see any constructive idea about what needs to be done.It`s all about who`s doing what wrong,and a frenzy of tossing (seemingly) legit
points at jews about how bad they really are.
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Personnally I don't care of the opinion of mrfish.
I stronly disagree to what he said in the 2nd post.
But you overreacted before his 2nd post.
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
It`s easy to kick back in your cozy SF apartment and bash on people who`s country is in constant war.But I`m yet to see any constructive idea about what needs to be done.
yeah? and where are you? helping your own people out in israel or stirring up anti-arab sentiment with your big "we'll kick their bellybutton speech"?
i don't care if you call me antisemitic. the only problem i have with that label is the fact that people automatically lump you with the nazi's and white supremicists.
as long as you realize i have nothing to do with those doctrines you can call me whatever you want.
i judge every people by their deeds caligula and have no apologies to offer for that.
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"So is this that "Antisemitic" card everyone is talking about when pro-israel people run out of excuses"
Precisely! :D
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1st off German Jews and those Jews from eastern Europe are not blood decendents of the ancient hebrews .
They can be ethnically traced back to the Khazars, a warlike Gentile nation from Southern Russia who converted to the Jewish religion in the eigth or 9th century.
However it is this Branch of the Jewish Nation that are the die hard Zionists and that formed the terrorists gangs and did most of the dirty work wresting Palestine from the Arabs.
As for you peace loving Torah reading types......it is the torah which being full of murder and violence that tells the story of the Jews. But it is the Talmud which drives them
The Talmud can be compared to Hitlers Nuremberg Laws........
Its full of hatred for non Jews or goy as they call us........
Any blood claim by modern jews is absurd considering there is very little blood to link them to the original Jews. In fact there probrably more blood linking Palestinians to the ancient Hebrews there there is linking them to modern jews.
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1st off German Jews and those Jews from eastern Europe are not blood decendents of the ancient hebrews .
They can be ethnically traced back to the Khazars, a warlike Gentile nation from Southern Russia who converted to the Jewish religion in the eigth or 9th century.
However it is this Branch of the Jewish Nation that are the die hard Zionists and that formed the terrorists gangs and did most of the dirty work wresting Palestine from the Arabs.
As for you peace loving Torah reading types......it is the torah which being full of murder and violence that tells the story of the Jews. But it is the Talmud which drives them
The Talmud can be compared to Hitlers Nuremberg Laws........
Its full of hatred for non Jews or goy as they call us........
Any blood claim by modern jews is absurd considering there is very little blood to link them to the original Jews. In fact there probrably more blood linking Palestinians to the ancient Hebrews there there is linking them to modern jews.
Wotan Mark Twain once said "It is better for people to think you are stupid, then for you to open your mouth and prove them right."
The more you quote the Jewish holy books, the greater your ignorance comes through. So for the sake of humility stop trying to use the Torah and the Gemara for your referances. I woud not be suprised if you have never seen a Talmud in your life.
There where many genetic experiments done, with Jews form Persia (Iran), Italy, Gemany and Russia. These test prove that these Jews are closer in relation than the Gentiles they lived among. There is a Jewish look and mannerisms that are similar among Jews around the world.
Stop your nonsence, it doesn't prove any thing, except your ignorance.
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Sir Richard Francis Burton's The Jew, The Gypsy, and El Islam
in the chapters entitled "The Jew and the Talmud" and "The Continuity of Tradtion" give a scholarly, objective and dignified view on the relations between Jews and Gentiles.
The anti-Zionist American Jew Benjamin Freedman in the book Facts are Facts published in 1955 review fully the origin, content and authoritative status of the Talmud.
Both Freedmon and Burton are in agreement and quote extensively from Talmud text. Many of them can only be described as rabidly racist, full of the fiercest hatred of Gentiles.
It asserts that the Jews alone are the children of God (priestly caste), that they alone are men, human beings, that Gentiles are only a higher order of cattle (goy) meant to be milked by Jews, that they exist to be the tools and Slaves of Jews, that to a Gentile a Jew is under no moral obligation what ever: he may lie to him, make promises and give pledges to him that he has no intention of keeping, may cheat him, rob him, even murder him - and morally it is all right, all right before his God.
Slay thou the best amoung the Gentiles, and of the best of serpents bruise the head
Zionists push for the imperialistic expansion of Isreal at the expense of the Gentile (goy) Palestinians.
Can you recite Kol Nidre for us?
I am not gonna fill this thread up but the fact is you came here with this post to exact sympathy for those poor unfortunate Jews who suffer under the evil Palestinian terrorists. Leaving out the racist Zionist philosphy that has brought this on. Also ignoring the terror of Isreal on the Palestinians.
I'll leave you with a quote from Ben Gurions Diary dated May 21 1947....it may shed some light on why arabs have opposed Isreal from the beggining.
The Achilles Heel of the Arab coalition is Lebanon. Muslim supremacy in this country is artificial and can easily be overthrown. A Christian State ought to be set up there.....We would sign a treaty of Alliance with this State. Thus when we have broken the strength of the Arab Legion and bombed Amman, we could wipe out Transjordan; after that Syria would fall. And if Egypt still dared make war with us, we would bomb Port Said, Alexandria and Chaldea on behalf of our Ancestors....
The Zionist state of Israel never had any intention of living "peacefully" amoung Arabs. What Gurion described about Lebanon was what happened later on. It ended up costing America much more then money. It joined us with the Christian Revolutionaries in lebanon and their backers Isreal. As a result the Marine barracks there was made a target.
The Zionist state of Israel was born out of terrorism and it wallows in it today. Except that America has chosen to back the oneside and that makes us enemies of the Arab world.
I am not a Talmudic Scholar thats for sure , I wouldnt be able to stomach the training, but I have read enough to know what drives the Zionist. Its the same thing that drove the Nazi.....hatred for everything that doesn't orignate from its own.
Lets face it Israel would still be killing Palestinians whether they fought back or not.
Before you use the Jewish trump card "Anti-Semite" let offer this
"An anti-semite was at one time someone who doesn't like Jews....Now an anti-Semite is anyone the Jews don't like"
Whats is happening is Israel today is the realization of years of pent up Talmudic hatred.........
Thats it for me I suggest letting this thread die.....as I will never except your Gods will or your view of the world.......
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Wotan,
That was my first statement on this message board. We are not here to convince each other, some are here to express their pent up anger. Other, to open the mind of the people who are involved because the gravity of the situation.
In the Talmud you will find all the different opinions, then the learned men of the gen, decided what is moral.
It is a true quote from the Talmud, even with it's crude translation.
But that was the topic of the discussion, and if you where to read the decussion through to the end, the sages of the generation said that the opinion of cheating, lying, killing etc. the gentile world is not occording to the direction that G-d wants us Jews to follow.
Again you will not except this entery but for the sake of others who read our little spat, I would like them to get the full picture insetad of the narrow one you have choose.
Ben Gurion's quote: I wonder how you would feel toward your neighbors if they attacked you. Remember the point of war is making sure YOU survive.
--yatziv
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
There where many genetic experiments done, with Jews form Persia (Iran), Italy, Gemany and Russia. These test prove that these Jews are closer in relation than the Gentiles they lived among. There is a Jewish look and mannerisms that are similar among Jews around the world.
Stop your nonsence, it doesn't prove any thing, except your ignorance.
When you use the notion of "race" wich is an complete non-sense I cannot differentiate you from others using the same mean to proove inferiority/superiority of one "race" over another.
The notion of race is complete roadkill any educated people now that it simply DON'T exist.
I would like to see statistics of the number of Palestinian and Isrealy killed since 10 years just to know if what we currently see is not a "Sharon" effect but I've been unable to find any.
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Well, to hijack the thread to more hypothetical realms, what do you think the result of 6th fleet aircraft over the besiged USS Liberty would have been?
The IAF pilots are generally regarded as most skilled in the world. It could be a myth, buta long series of campaigns tend to "prove" that, however esqued the plane sets might have been in those particular conflicts.
So my question is: what aircraft would 6th fleet throw at the strafing Mysthéres and MirageIII? And could they make a difference or would they just make for an embarrasing american defeat in the air as well?
The Dassault Mysthére was pretty old by then, but the MirageIII, if armed with Matra Magic missiles, could be a really deadly foe. I'm not quite sure of what aircraft the american carriers of the perios were fielding, as well as what kind of armament they would carry.
No flames pls, just speculating wildly :D.
Regards,
Romeoman
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Originally posted by ~Caligula~
There where many genetic experiments done, with Jews form Persia (Iran), Italy, Gemany and Russia. These test prove that these Jews are closer in relation than the Gentiles they lived among. There is a Jewish look and mannerisms that are similar among Jews around the world.
From all the ridiculous statements you wrote - this is surely the most one.
The last time when scientists tried to define the jewish race it was during Nazi-reign in Germany.
They defined the jews as a subrace with big noses and so on. Just try imagine how stupid this was - to define a race. An absolute nonsense.
There dont exist a jewish race, a aryan race or whatever.
This is only for stupid racists who want to show that one group is superior or inferior.
But its also intersting that the Israelis or their sympathisants now try to use the same Nazi-definition methods.
Here a race there another - here the good one - there the bad one - lets start the selection progress and send the bad race away...
What a nonsense !
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Who`s talking about races here?
Cretainly not me!!!
Those studies were made to find out how closely related are the different groups of jews that were living far away and isolated from eachother.With no intention of proving any racial superiority.
So when they do DNA checks on mummies that supposed to prove that the egyptians were some kinda uber race???
It`s called science in case You didn`t know.
You are just proving how ignorant ,stupid and closeminded You really are by twisting my words around.
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You are closely related to the ape also.
But fortunatly the Ape don't wrote the Bible.
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HeadNazi:
White Men! White women! The swastika is calling you. The Jew is using the black as muscle against you. And you are left there helpless. Well, what are you going to do about it, whitey? Just sit there? Of course not. You, are going to join with us. The members of the American, Socialist, White peoples party. An organisation of decent, law abiding white folk. Just like you.
I pledge allegiance to Adolf Hitler.
Nazis:
I pledge allegiance to Adolf Hitler.
Head Nazi:
The immortal leader of our race.
Nazis: The immortal leader of our race.
Head Nazi: And to the order for which he stands.
Nazis: And to the order for which he stands.
Head Nazi: One great cause,
Nazis: One great cause,
HeadNazi: Sacred and invincible.
Nazis: Sacred and invincible.
[Jake and Elwood are caught in a traffic jam caused by the Nazis.]
Jake: [To a patrolling officer] Hey, what's going on?
Officer: Ah, those bums won there court case so their marching today.
Jake: What bums?
Officer: The diddlying Nazi party.
Elwood: Illinios Nazis!
Jake: I hate Illinios Nazis.