Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: gavor on March 05, 2002, 04:54:50 PM
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What the hell?
What happened to this world trade thing the US is so insistent on for everyone else? As soon as their industry starts screaming the government slaps a 30% tariff on all imports. What about our industry, which exports $400m worth of steel to the US? Double-standards.
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That's what happens when politicians work for the corporations and not for the people. Good thing is it usually works only for a limited time.
When countries who import goodies from U.S put a extra tariff on those U.S manufacturers will notice their stuff doesn't sell anymore.
Bad thing is if you lose your markets to another manufacturer in another country it's hard (and costs lot) to gain those markets back. Kinda like pissing to your pants in a winter: Nice warm feeling first but little later your pants will be freezed and you feel yourself stupid.
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it's a free market competition thing :)
Do as i say, not as i do.
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So much for globalisation and capitalism :p
Daff
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Probably some of the shrubs corporate cronies were losing money, can't allow that ya know.
I'm surprised he didn't let them raid the employees 401K plans before leveling a tariff.
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Dweebzel, clueless as usual, manages to spin protection of the US steel industry into something that somehow hurts US workers...
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Even funnier is Europeans whining about protectionism. You guys invented this toejam.
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I support these tariffs. The US steel industry is simply unable to compete with foreign competition that can pay its workers 50 cents an hour or less. Furthermore, steel is an important national security asset and becomming totally dependent on foreign steel would be just as bad as our dependence on foreign oil.
Free trade is good and all, but NOT at the cost of sacrificing American jobs. Why should Americans be put out of work so some Mexican or Korean can have his job? The first, primary job of the US government is to provide for the security of the American people, and if that means protecting our jobs and assets by slapping tariffs on certain imported goods, than I'm all for it.
J_A_B
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Whats the problem? U.S. Steel corps are in trouble because they are undercut by foriegn producers. U.S. is protecting their own...so?
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Protection of the steel industry. Thats fine, if the US wasnt going around telling everyone they have to join in with the globalisation thing. Free, open trade! Isn't that what the world trade organisation(mightily pushed by the US) is all about?
It's funny, as soon as it doesnt work in your favour the government changes the rules. Your steel industry is falling apart, we can import better and cheaper steel but the old corporations screamed bloody murder and pleaded for the president to save their workers and their 'traditional profession'. Woe is them.
I'm sure economically it would have been better to do nothing, but politically the president has made the right decision. And right before congressional elections too. Coincidence?
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Funked it will help steel-industry (not for long thought) but it will also hurt your export so you better hope U.S inner markets are going up and that they will stay up too.
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Sorry JAB, mexico and canada aren't included in the tariffs. And we dont pay our workers 50c an hour.
I think the idea of globalisation IS caring about workers in other countries and promoting their industries, not locking them out and making THEM lay off their people. Its supposed to be a caring sharing world not one where we have to share but you don't.
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This just in... Business is war.
There is a reason corporate sharks read Sun Tzu.
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If and when a time comes when the US needs a lot of steel and needs it fast...... say like a major war or something...... and the US has no steel industry of its own anymore..... and then suppose that the "usual" US suppliers decide that they don't want the US to get any of their steel right then..... because maybe they think the US is "arrogant" or something...
then what?
Is there such a thing as domestic industry that is vital for national defense?
That's the question, IMO.
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canada and mexico have a FREE TRADE (see NAFTA) agreement with the USA, if you want FREE TRADE with the USA you must eleminate all your tariffs on US goods, this raise was done under guide lines of the world trade org, if you don't like it , take it up with the WTO, ......it's only for 3 years anyway
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Thats a good question Toad but i think there are two points there.
One is that there probably is a domestic market in the US for other vital industries like defence. I'd say there will always be a domestic market, but that they are trying to sustain too big a market right now. Second is that countries like Australia and the UK will always be here to help you out if you urgently needed steel. I dont think we'd hold the steel ransom cos you're arrogant ;). We like you too much.
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yes, let's put the "defence steel defence defensive emergency plan" into effect.
"We came to recieve the information that Al-queda and taliban are planning to STEAL ALL THE STEEL from USA !!! We have to protect outselves against such possibility by going against the very principals we enforce on everyone else. Sorry for inconvinience.
Next week timber industry which is oh so vital to national defence will get to put up tariffs against canadian wood !!! ( oh wait, we already did that !!! )
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Originally posted by fd ski
Next week timber industry which is oh so vital to national defence will get to put up tariffs against canadian wood !!! ( oh wait, we already did that !!! )
Tell me about it.:rolleyes:
It hypocracy pure and simple. Tell me again how Dubya isn't doing this for big business. Cripes, I KNOW you guys aren't that simple minded.
Can the US compete on the world market or not?
What happend to American's screaming about keeping Government out of Business....sheeesh.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Can the US compete on the world market or not?
Thats a good question. The things they do with tariffs and quotas sends the message that they can't. Obviously this can't be true? :confused:
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You planning on buying a new car, appliances, or anything that requires a large amount of steel soon funked?
I'm SURE you won't mind paying a higher price for them will you?
The shrubs a slack jawed idiot, the biggest part of him ran down Barbaras leg.
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Its very simple folks,,,,look at the value of the US Dollar vrs the other countrys currency-----
The world currency is the US Dollar but when the local currency is worth 2 x or more it is easy to see how foreign products can be produced and sold vrs a US product.
What is interesting is how the world values thier sovereign interests but invest in T-Bills and T-Bonds.
Just a thought.
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I'd HAPPILY pay more for something which uses American steel in it. US steel is invariably of higher quality than Asian or Mexican steel.
Besides, what do you suppose will happen once those foreign companies finally drive all the domestic compaines out of business? That's right, they'll charge more (for their crappy inferior product). OPEC certainly isn't giving us any huge break on gasoline! Indeed, OPEC has been known to simply halt sales to us whenever they feel like it--why would we want this sort of vulnerability in ANOTHER vital product?
Sorry to the free-trade advocates, but the US government's main concern is NOT in improving the lives of people in third-world countries. The US government needs to look out for its own citizens. If this is indeed a case of Bush cozying up to a big business, that's FINE--regardless of motive it's preserving American jobs and keeping us from becomming dependent on the whims of other nations. In this case, our government is protecting an important domestic industry from foreign price undercutting. This is what the government is there for.
Too bad they didn't do this 10 years ago.
J_A_B
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"I support these tariffs. The US steel industry is simply unable to compete with foreign competition that can pay its workers 50 cents an hour or less."
Must be all those state funded Socialist inspired welfare, health, education and retirement benefits that's forcing the American Worker fron taking his place amongst the economicaly productive workers of the world.
We shouldn't worry, they'll see it doesn't pay.
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I'd HAPPILY pay more for something which uses American steel in it. US steel is invariably of higher quality than Asian or Mexican steel.
What about when those higher costs flow down to other things, as they eventually will. Will you be happier to pay more for other products that had to pay more for their machinery that was made using expensive US steel? How do you know its of a higher quality? Did you do studies? Are you saying Australian steel is inferior and crap? If US steel is so much better than everyone elses then why isnt it selling?
Sorry to the free-trade advocates, but the US government's main concern is NOT in improving the lives of people in third-world countries. The US government needs to look out for its own citizens.
I thought the US was the biggest free trade advocate around. Wheres the logic in this? Government should stay out of business, especially if they're trumpeting about free trade.
If this is indeed a case of Bush cozying up to a big business, that's FINE--regardless of motive it's preserving American jobs and keeping us from becomming dependent on the whims of other nations.
You won't be at the whim of others, there are plenty of steel producing nations that can offer you a high quality product. Its called trade and it involves negotiations. If one nation is asking too much, buy somewhere else. I find the argument that you should protect your own and not worry about other nations to be pretty bloody arrogant and narrow minded. Last i looked this was the 21st century and we were all trying to work together.
In this case, our government is protecting an important domestic industry from foreign price undercutting. This is what the government is there for.
Maybe you think its an important domestic business but if it needs to be protected then its not as good as you think. If it can't compete anymore perhaps they should try changing.
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I just don't get it, I thought the US was all about capitalism.
The US pays their workers more, gotcha. The US also produces a fantastic grade of steel, I'm still following you. If the steel is good then it will be bought at a higher price then crap steel. And the US steel companies can afford to pay higher wages.
But if they can't the government steps in and bails them out? Okay I have know problems with this from a Canadian stand point, as we've bailed out Bombardier about a billion times. But we are more socialist than the US.
I would appreciate it if someone could explain to me how the US can be so very capitalist when it suits them, but then have the government bailout big business, when markets forces go against them. No sarcasm here.
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Unfortunately business doesn't usually care about quality. They buy the crappy Asian/Mexican steel because they have to to compete with the other guys. How it works out is most massive construction projects are performed by the lowest bidder (who bids lowest because he uses the cheapest material), so quality suffers. It's the great irony of how the things we rely on daily--bridges, buildings, signs and almost our entire infastructure--are built by the lowest bidder.
As a result of the way contracts are awarded, large scale steel companies (like say LTV) cannot really use quality as a means of selling their product. This works for small-time mills but not for major producers. What it boils down to is American companies that pay a living wage and hence have high fixed costs cannot compete with foreign companies who don't need to pay their workers so much. Should the US steel industry be allowed to collapse simply because the standard of living in other countries is so much lower?
How can you call it competition when one side has an impossibly large advantage?
Also, the argument that using higher-priced steel will result in goods costing more is false. Goods such as cars are priced based on what the market will pay for them, NOT based on how much they cost to build. GMC, for example, actually loses money on most of its small cars simply because they can't sell them at a profitable price (this is why automakers love SUV's, they use old technology and yet people pay a lot for them). Remember, pricing is based on what the customer will pay, not on how much it costs you to build the goods (another example is soda pop, it costs only about a nickel a can to make yet retails for 50 cents or more because that's what people are willing to pay). Companies won't be able to just raise their prices because their costs increased slightly (and it IS only a slight difference in the final cost) because the market won't bear it.
The main effect that this tariff might have is slightly lower profit margins for steel-using industries; consumer prices shouldn't be seriously affected and the overall economic effect on profitability of steel-using industries will be more than outweighed by the fact that the remaining domestic steel companies won't fold up.
Lastly, I agree that the US government is being hypocritical here. My opinion is globalization is the mistake and protection of American assets is the best course of action. Naturally I'd expect residents of other countries to have exactly the opposite opinion, and I hold no grudge for it. Everyone wants what's best for their country.
J_A_B
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J_A_B,
One just said that Mexico is in some free trade agreement with US...
Did you forget europe and australia?
Those are not having cheap work power or being third world countries.
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Europe and Australia are not part of NAFTA.
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Thats not the point. J_A_B is saying all other countries who produce steel are third world, have a lower standard of living and dont pay their workers enough. Well I say bollocks to that! Since when has Australia been 'Third World'! Or Europe! How can you come out and say our steel is crap!? If you can't compete, you can't compete, don't make excuses. Don't use Mexico as an example either. Once again, they didnt have the tariffs imposed so Mexican steel will be flowing over your borders just as freely.
Off topic a bit, i've always found it funny that our great armed forces always use equipment that came from the cheapest source.
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Gavor, the Aussie tariff on imported automobiles is at 15% isn't it? What's the matter, afraid to compete? ;)
Now which country was it that is 100% totally free trade? I forgot already.
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You're such a spoilsport :). Stop making me get down off that high horse.
I'll admit though that we make crap cars and most other countries make much nicer ones. Perhaps we should stop trying to compete and just focus on something else.
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Now which country was it that is 100% totally free trade? I forgot already.
Shouldn't countries be trying to make it better, though?
What's so bd about this is there's no attempt to justify it by claiming unfair competition, simply that American comapnies can't compete, so force prices up to a level where they can compete.
It means other countries will look for an area where they are having difficulties competing with the Americns nd slp their own duties on in retaliation.
The only good side is that it will embarress Tony Blair immensley after his support for Lakshmi Mittal, who has campaigned for the tarrifs.
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"J_A_B is saying all other countries who produce steel are third world, have a lower standard of living and dont pay their workers enough. Well I say bollocks to that! "
Please don't go down that route Gavor, you know that's not what I'm saying. I'm not even talking about other developed nations.
Britain, Germany, Austrailia, countries such as those obviously have a standard of living equal to that of the USA. You will also take note that these aren't the countires who are bankrupting the US steel industry. The problem countries are those known as "developing nations". Actually, other developed nations are also suffering a loss of industry and jobs to developing nations, and often enact tariffs of their own.
Competition is a good thing. However, the foreign steel imports which are the topic of this discussion aren't competition because it's not a level playing field. Would you consider a boxing match fair if one of the participants was permitted to use a baseball bat?
This tariff will force them to actuallly have to compete, rather than just undercutting US companies by virtue of their automatic advantage.
Again, I've got nothing against you for having a differing opinion. The interesting thing about this issue is BOTH sides are "right"....the perspective is just different.
J_A_B
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Any country who wants free trade with the USA, feel free to eliminate tariffs and duties and quotas on imported goods, and I'm pretty sure our government will do the same.
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Originally posted by Nashwan
What's so bd about this is there's no attempt to justify it by claiming unfair competition, simply that American comapnies can't compete, so force prices up to a level where they can compete.
Are you going to say that the US is the only country doing this right now?
Britain isn't protecting some industry that simply isn't competitive?
Australia?
Finland?
I haven't bothered to look on the web ... yet... but I'll wager just about every country is protecting some non-competitive industry against foreign competition with tariffs.
Is it just bad because it's steel?
Or is it just bad because this time it's the US in the news?
Or is it bad because this time it's US steel?
Yeah, this is obvious protectionism. My preference is that we wouldn't do that. However, I do have some concern in the "vital to national defense" area.
What I really wish is that if the Governement is going to protect the steel industry that it "invite" Steel Ownership, Management and Labor to a little sit down meeting and beat them over the head with the "plain truth" club. The entire industry has to realize this can't go on and on and that it's a "one time deal" so they had better get their sh*t together. In short, this protection needs to result in a more competitive industry, even if the government has to threaten or force them to it.
But that will never happen.
(BTW, I personally don't think this would have been avoided if Gore had won. I think he'd have faced the political, economic and defense realities and done the same thing. Just my opinion.
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Competition is a good thing. However, the foreign steel imports which are the topic of this discussion aren't competition because it's not a level playing field. Would you consider a boxing match fair if one of the participants was permitted to use a baseball bat?
Hehe isn't that feelthy communist talk? :D
Strange fact - FWIW - The world's freest economy, as rated by the Washington-based Heritage Foundation for the past 6 consecutive years, (the Cato Institute/Fraser Institute have continuously rated it as the most free economy in the world since 1986) is currently owned by feelthy communists - Hong Kong.
[tongue in cheek]Sadly even we poor, deluded communists in Hong Kong with our freest economy in the world don't have a truly free market economy. If only we did - then we could all buy hard drugs & nuclear weapons in our local supermarkets, and start companies that sell sewage mixed with sugar as soft drinks, and untested pharmaceuticals, with no let or hindrance. Damn! If only our repressive government would just let the all-wise consumer decide![/tongue in cheek]
OK that's enough puerile humour from me - back to the economics:
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Originally posted by -dead-
Strange fact - FWIW - The world's freest economy, as rated by the Washington-based Heritage Foundation for the past 6 consecutive years, (the Cato Institute/Fraser Institute have continuously rated it as the most free economy in the world since 1986) is currently owned by feelthy communists - Hong Kong.
The United States ties for fourth on this list while China weighs in at an atrocious 121st. If, as you stated, another list has ranked Hong Kong the freest economy since 1986, this must be due more to British influence than to Communist China's influence.
The real question is how long China can bear to keep its hands out of Hong Kong's economy.
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Oh come off it Todd! Hong Kong's economy was nothing until the Reds took over!
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The funny thing about this is that the American consumers are so STOOOPID they don't realize this indicates a 30% pricerise across the board on goods with a large proportion of steel in them.
You see, 30% indicates the current differential between US and foreign steel costs. So now your manufacturers will turn to local steel producers, who were roughly 30% more expensive (and hence lost business). Your manufacturers will in turn pass this cost onto you, the consumer, who will of course now have less money to spend. Which means you will, of course, buy less, and inevitably put someone out of a job in another US industry.
Secondly, now US manufacterers have 'protectionism' forcing the business their way they can afford to relax and put out lower grade product. US Steel 'was higher grade', hence more expensive, often a good sales pitch. Now they no longer compete... vroooom down goes the quality.
Its a false economy, sooner or later it catches up with you, all you're doing is shifting the problem.
Now the wierd thing is those most affected are countries with similar costs of living to the USA, ie Aussie, NZ, Europe etc. Why can they produce it 30% cheaper? We still have to pay our workers toejamloads :) so there must be something really screwed up with your industry.
You're screwed any way you look at it - just remember you're now subsidising an inefficient, uncompetitive industry - deja vu Soviet Union.
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Originally posted by funkedup
Oh come off it Todd! Hong Kong's economy was nothing until the Reds took over!
ROFLMAO! Now that's the spirit!
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oh come on people, imported steel is uber, so bush perked it
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I just checked out the Austrailian Department of foreign Affais and Trades web site http://203.6.171.3/publications/aus_us_fta/summary2.html
It seems that Austrailia has higher tarrifs on sugar and dairy products then then the US does.
quote
Background
In 1999 Australia exported US$8.1 billion of goods and services to the United States, while the United States exported US$15.2 billion worth to Australia.
Trade with the United States is far more important to Australia in a relative sense than is Australia’s trade to the United States (see chart 2).
Australian exports to the United States account for around 11 per cent of total Australian exports and the United States is the source of nearly one fifth of Australia’s imports.
By contrast, United States exports to Australia account for just 1.6 per cent of total United States exports and Australia is the source of only 0.7 per cent of United States imports.
looks like your argument is pretty petty IMHO
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better you than us
Bush is doing what he has to do to prevent the layoff of more US workers in OUR struggling economy .... sorry.
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A strong dollar makes U.S. goods more expensive overseas and foreign goods cheaper in the US.
As Milo said:
"What is interesting is how the world values their sovereign interests but invest in T-Bills and T-Bonds.
[/b]
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Republican communists. Now i've seen everything.
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'How can you call it competition when one side has an impossibly large advantage?'
That's what I'm wondering in the MA week to week. :rolleyes:
I think the fuss here is because US broke it's own principles. They raise hell every time others have done things like this.
Well, a complaint has been made to WTO immediately, for what good that does. IMO Bush is yet again paying back the campaign funds he got from the big industry.. :)
Kiyoto, defence budget, steel tariffs..
Bad thing is that when he bends over to the tycoons, he's showing his butt to the average consumer. Can't please both.
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This may give you a better view of the US steel industry and why they may need some help
http://www.business-journal.com/SteelIndustryIndex.html
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BTW half of the steel companies in the US are in bankruptcy with the price of steel at a 20 year low. Bush bashers may say its a Bush payback to big business, but I bet some of the 100,000 steel workers would call it differently.
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How about 700,000 steel industry retirees and their families losing significant portion of their pensions and all the healthcare benefits?
How about the whole towns that live around the steel industry and it's retirees?
miko
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what exacly makes them different from all the other unemployed ?
Shouldn't they "adapt" to the economic realities to the market ? The supply/demend thing ?
Why aren't janitors protected ?
How about hotel workers ?
What makes steel special ?
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My heart bleeds, miko2d. Those towns would only be experiencing a situation replicated over the entire developed world. You're nothing special.
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It's the unions fault - everyone back to that thread :)
I did hear that the steel workers make on average 56% more than the rest of the manufacturing industry in the US ....
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Any country who wants free trade with the USA, feel free to eliminate tariffs and duties and quotas on imported goods, and I'm pretty sure our government will do the same.
Funked, do you really believe this?
Gavor, can you tell us a story about tariffs on pork?
BTW, US represenatives already threatened Russia for refusing from importing American chicken meat. Funny, isn't it?
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It's hardly a backroom deal with big business, it's a very public cave-in to very public pressure from the unions.
Though I agree it's a bad thing, I'm suprised to hear from so many closet capitalists. Apparantly Bush is too compasionate to the american working man?
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Just to clarify why i'm making a fuss about this. mrsid2 said
I think the fuss here is because US broke it's own principles. They raise hell every time others have done things like this.
..and he's right. Its not so much the tariff thing, although it irks me because i'm Australian :). If the US government wants to push global trade so hard they should practise what they preach, not pander to the steel belt workers ahead of your congressional elections in November.
Pork tariffs Boroda? I'm not sure, do we have tariffs on pork? Interesting. If you have some numbers on that I'll gladly discuss it with you.
Lastly, to JAB...
Again, I've got nothing against you for having a differing opinion. The interesting thing about this issue is BOTH sides are "right"....the perspective is just different.
... :). Don't mistake my strongly worded statements as attacks on your opinions or your character. I'm just arguing about what I believe, I like a good arguement/discussion and you're providing one. Thanks ;).
You say that countries such as mine aren't the ones bankrupting the US steel industry, yet we still have tariffs on our exports. Actually to be totally truthful we only have tariffs on half of it, our slab steel remains tariff free.
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Originally posted by Dowding
My heart bleeds, miko2d. Those towns would only be experiencing a situation replicated over the entire developed world. You're nothing special.
But we are! Or rather they are. Those guys "over the entire world" do not vote in USA while people in those towns do. They do not care if your heart bleeds, they care what our president and congress do.
Many americans, myself included, do not support that decision. I expect that your governments will start retaliating.
Apparantly Bush is too compasionate to the american working man?
No. He is just too pragmatic. Those union workers were getting extra benefuts by making US steel industry less competitive through resisting modernisation, promoting ineficiency and driving up costs. The fall was predictable and now they want the government to bail them out at the expence of other US workers who will suffer from the trade war, higher steel prices, etc. Laws of economics dictate that increased reward comes with increased risk. If I do not save my own money and hurt my company, I run an increased risk that my pension plan (actually I do not have any) may fold.
If republicans do that kind of stuff, I might as well be voting for democrats.
Of course sometimes it is impossible to compete against low paid or slave labor with no environmental costs or government subcidies. Tariffs are a good idea in that case but they would have to be directed against specific countries, not general.
miko
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Allow me to change just a very few words and see if it doesn't read just as well......
"No. He is just too pragmatic. Those steel company managers were getting extra benefuts by making US steel industry less competitive through resisting modernisation, promoting ineficiency and driving up costs. It's much, much easier just to drive your company to the brink and then move the business offshore to an underdeveloped country where the government doesn't care what you do to the workers. The fall was predictable and now they want the government to bail them out at the expence of other US companies who will suffer from the trade war, higher steel prices, etc. Laws of economics dictate that increased reward comes with increased risk. If I do not save my own money and hurt my company, I run an increased risk that I may have to raid the worker's pension plan to insure that I get my golden parachute.
If republicans do that kind of stuff, I might as well be voting for democrats."
:)
Not pointed at you miko.. .just the average US manager.