Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Sandman on March 05, 2002, 08:13:16 PM
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Zero tolerance for child molestation.
Odd though... last year the tolerance policy wasn't zero. I wonder how many little boys it took to break the camels back. Was five acceptable before? Or was it ten? Maybe a hundred?
Celibacy is deviant sexual behavior. I don't know about the rest of you but I don't trust leaving my children among sexual deviants.
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Child molesters?
Plenty of jobs available stretching pieces of new rope.
But that's just me.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Zero tolerance for child molestation.
Odd though... last year the tolerance policy wasn't zero. I wonder how many little boys it took to break the camels back. Was five acceptable before? Or was it ten? Maybe a hundred?
Celibacy is deviant sexual behavior. I don't know about the rest of you but I don't trust leaving my children among sexual deviants.
I don't think the question was ever one of morality SandMan. I think it's a question of lawsuits and dollars and bad PR that caused the Vatican to reverse their previous stance.
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Ah... I get it... "We'll overlook the immorality because it's going to cost a lot otherwise."
Right?
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yeah, i heard today that they are going to ask them to retire.
wow! spare no discipline eh? they might even revoke their commisary privileges at that rate.
at least all those violated kids can rest in the comfort that their suffering is all part of a silent god's secret plan.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
Ah... I get it... "We'll overlook the immorality because it's going to cost a lot otherwise."
Right?
No, it's the immoral behavior that costs archdioceses (sp) so much in lawsuit settlements and bad PR. Until now SOP was to transfer sexual predators. What do YOU think suddenly caused this miracleous reversal in policy? They saw God?
You're right though about celabicy being abnormal (deviant is too strong a word) behavior. It's unfortunate Catholics don't allow priests to marry or allow women to become priests. I can understand the logic behind "Marriage To God" but in today's practical society all these antequated policies accomplish is to attract homosexual predators to the Priesthood.
Now before you rip me as anti-Catholic I recognize that the vast majority of Priests are dedicated Men of God who do our Lord's work with the understanding that once they pass on to Heaven as Martyrs they will be blessed with 72 virgin alter boys to attend them, and I realize it's only 40% or so of Priests who molest children anyway, so I don't want to paint the entire Catholic Priesthood with such a broad brush.
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Hmmm... out here in the "real" world, we transfer our sexual predators also. They get to do "penance" in a federal facility built exclusively for the purpose rather than being transferred to newer more fertile, less litigous hunting grounds.
Only 40%? :D
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Well, you guys don't realize it but theres been a toejamfight in Aussie over the current Governer General (Dr Hollingworth), he was a Archbishit or something previously and apparently turned a blind eye to some kiddie-fiddling priest.
I think Anglican or something... bah they're all the same to me.
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Its a pattern, every BBS I've ever visited where religion was brought up, it is always brought up negatively by non-believers first :rolleyes: Must be an insecurity thing.
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"Celibacy is deviant sexual behavior"
:rolleyes:
yea sure. I guess abstinence from sexual activities is "abnormal" too.... grow up.
small % of priests are pervs, just like a small % of bus drivers, teachers, politicains, name ur profession .....
A much greater % of priests are doing God's work by spreading His Word ... to those who have the need/desire to hear it.
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yea sure. I guess abstinence from sexual activities is "abnormal" too.... grow up.
Abstinence from all sexual activity IS celibacy. I'll re-phrase the above statement if it'll make you happy. "Lifelong celibacy is deviant sexual behavior." Note... I didn't say deviant sex. I said deviant behavior. Wake up. It's not normal and it can't possibly be healthy.
Read this. (http://www.angelfire.com/ga2/religious/celibacy.html)
When one looks at the history of celibacy in the Catholic Church, it soon becomes apparent that this state of life became mandatory due to financial considerations, not because priests were supposed to emulate Christ by remaining single. When one focuses more specifically upon the medieval period, we can clearly see that church property was donated by kings and princes in exchange for faithful service. A controversy arose when married priests in turn left this property to their heirs.
...and this: (http://www.mcn.org/1/aloysius/ISSUFILE/CELIBACY.HTML)
The idea of mandatory celibacy did not originate in Christianity and was, in fact, discouraged in Jewish tradition and practice. An unmarried rabbi was viewed with suspicion. Ritual purity for the priesthood was a pagan concept based on distorted views of sexuality as evil, dangerous and destructive.
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So every monk and nun who doesn't have sex is abnormal?
News Flash!
Sex ain't everything and there are many who don't place it in the top ten in their life. The world would be a better place if more did so too....
I know this is hard to understand for some/many, but when your hormones calm down you'll get it :)
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You got it backwards
Its not the celibacy or the Preisthood that creates pedophiles, its the access to potential victims that draws them.
Pedophiles tend to get jobs that allow them to perpetrate their deviances. Coaches, clowns, daycare workers, priests, the list goes on. If you were to look into the percentage of all little league coaches that are pedophiles it would probably be higher than the national average for all other occupations, just as the number in the preisthood is probably higher.
Coaching young people doesn't make you a pedophile, and neither does celibate priesthood. They are both just attractive jobs to these sickos.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Its a pattern, every BBS I've ever visited where religion was brought up, it is always brought up negatively by non-believers first :rolleyes: Must be an insecurity thing.
that doesn't even make sense.
'spiteful' or 'malicious' would have been a better choice of words (not accurate but at least appropriate for your accusation) but i hardly see what the pagans are 'insecure' about. going against the tide of people who blindly believe? many of your believer cohorts would love to kill 'non-believers'. millions have died for being 'non-believers' i hardly see how that suggests insecurity.
i'll grant you the phrase "must be an insecurity thing" does have a lot of mileage, and is great to pull out of your bag of phrases in a lot of situations: like when a balding, newly middle-class, newly middle-age guy buys a sportscar and then talks on and on and on about it to impress his friends for example, but i'm afraid you are asking more than the phrase is capable of delivering here.
i would say another great example of insecurity would be someone clinging to the hope that some dead guy from 2000 years ago is gonna come back and make it all better some day. or fearing the uncertainty of death or the responsibility of controling your own actions or being responsible for your own deeds - that's insecurity. closing your eyes and fading off into some religious rapture and mumbling in tougues when the going gets tough - that hints of insecurity also.
pointing out that religion is a front for homosexual pedophiles (not to mention con artists, people who prey on the weak and old, dictators, etc) is called truth telling. you can tell because there are an abundance of factual examnples knocking down my door just waiting to be posted. you even refer to regular people as 'non-believers' setting a negative tone.
its just the next phase in shining the light of day on all the dark secret corners of superstition - it won't hurt - really.
;)
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Originally posted by Eagler
So every monk and nun who doesn't have sex is abnormal?
Bingo!
I know this is hard to understand for some/many, but when your hormones calm down you'll get it :)
When do you think that'll happen? I'm 40.
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Sandman, I'm 50 so don't worry, you have at least another 10 years of raging hormones to look forward to.
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Ripsnort wrote:
Its a pattern, every BBS I've ever visited where religion was brought up, it is always brought up negatively by non-believers first Must be an insecurity thing.
Umm so are you saying believers think this is OK?
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clowns? oh gawd, that scared the hell off me mwahahaha.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
Ripsnort wrote:
Umm so are you saying believers think this is OK?
No, what I am saying is more atheists, and non-God fearing individuals will attack any christian related faith first, instead of the otherway around. They are always on the offensive.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
When do you think that'll happen? I'm 40.
Getting off the viagra may help :)
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Hey, Viagra is the only recreational drug I use.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
No, what I am saying is more atheists, and non-God fearing individuals will attack any christian related faith first, instead of the otherway around. They are always on the offensive.
2000 years of murdering people who dont agree, molesting kids, squelching science and burning and torturing thinkers, bilking old ladies out of their savings, keeping 3rd world countries up to their ears in kids with threats of hell if they use birth control, making children die because their parents trusted their sicknesses to god to cure, causing teens to commit suicide because they were gay and knew their religious parents wouldn't accept them, keeping mentally ill people in holes in the ground because you thought the devil was in them, torturing people until they agreed with you...
yeah i 'fear' god plenty or at least his wacko followers...anyone who believes in a perversion like christianity should expect an attack.
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News Flash!
Sex ain't everything and there are many who don't place it in the top ten in their life. The world would be a better place if more did so too....
Eagler, if you took the Operation Flashpoint or Simms graphics engine and made it a sex simulation, it would be the biggest seller ever ;)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
No, what I am saying is more atheists, and non-God fearing individuals will attack any christian related faith first, instead of the otherway around. They are always on the offensive.
I didn't feel Sandman was "attacking" the Catholic Church. He was commenting on current events is all. For that matter Mr. Fish didn't attack Christanity either as much as he presented his viewpoint, at least until his last post. Rather I agree with him or not I feel he has a right to express his opinion. Please, don't be so insecure in your faith.
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My background is Irish-Catholic. Based on my experience, in Parochial school, as a small boy. I would as soon send my kids to the Teliban, for an education, as the Catholic church.
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I've never met a Catholic that wasn't repulsed by this type of behavior (Priest/alterboy). The strange thing is... I haven't met any that were suprised by it.
It would be nice if the Catholic church actually acknowledged the problem and took measures to resolve it. I guess finally deciding to remove the "troublemakers" is a good start... Its about 400 years too late IMO.
AKDejaVu
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I received an excellent education in parochial school. As I stated earlier, this has nothing to do with the Church, and everything to do with the choices made by pedophiles.
The Church doesn't have a pedophile problem, it has a problem with the way it has dealt with pedophiles.
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Originally posted by mrfish
2000 years of murdering people who dont agree, molesting kids, squelching science and burning and torturing thinkers, bilking old ladies out of their savings, keeping 3rd world countries up to their ears in kids with threats of hell if they use birth control, making children die because their parents trusted their sicknesses to god to cure, causing teens to commit suicide because they were gay and knew their religious parents wouldn't accept them, keeping mentally ill people in holes in the ground because you thought the devil was in them, torturing people until they agreed with you...
yeah i 'fear' god plenty or at least his wacko followers...anyone who believes in a perversion like christianity should expect an attack.
Imagine a world without religion all together! (the number would be 100 fold in regards to death, no morals means death to many, think long and hard about this one, religion has saved many more people than it has killed. it just can't be measured)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I received an excellent education in parochial school. As I stated earlier, this has nothing to do with the Church, and everything to do with the choices made by pedophiles.
The Church doesn't have a pedophile problem, it has a problem with the way it has dealt with pedophiles.
Wow! We agree on something! :D
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oh, i see. humanity wouldn't be capable of having a moral foundation without religion.
it's not that our invented religions already echo our inherent understanding of morality.
all religion is - is the value system we already know is right backed up by threats and illusions of superiority to it's members.
any good that religion brings could be accomplished just as easily without the dogma. charity? goodwill? helpin' your neighbor? all of that can be accomplished of our own volition. do you need threats of hell? i don't but some people don't motivate them selves unless threatened i guess.
i don't think the vast native populations exploited and destroyed by missionaries because they already had a sprituality would agree with you anyway.
i don't need an imaginary friend to be decent to people. the logic of the act is enough.
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>Eagler, if you took the Operation Flashpoint or Simms graphics
>engine and made it a sex simulation, it would be the biggest
>seller ever
(Wabbit ponders the money to be made from a new line of force-feedback devices....) :D
Wab
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I'd like to think we are more defensive than offensive.
Plus who attacks who? I don't come knocking on your door telling you that you will be punished for believing in god. I have on the other hand answered my door to hear how I will burn in hell if I don't believe.
Ripsnort wrote:
Imagine a world without religion all together! (the number would be 100 fold in regards to death, no morals means death to many, think long and hard about this one, religion has saved many more people than it has killed. it just can't be measured)
[/b]
Your kidding right?
Plus I think you are wrong in equating morality with religion. Just because I don't believe the same as you does not mean I have no morals OR that you moral standards are better than mine.
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Heyas Mr. Fish.....
Just curious.....what do you believe in? Where do you go when you die, or do you believe we just get planted and that's it?
A truthful answer would be appreciated rather than spinning this off as so many usually do:)
Thanks
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Im a recovering Catholic myself - was brought up that way and in my youth had such interesting questions as "Doesnt the Bible stand opposite certain scientific constants?" snuffed out of me. In my mind there are three types of religious minions - any religion has them: Type 1. Dont give a watermelon - he goes to church/Temple/Mosque on some Sundays/Saturdays/Whateverdays, Christmas, and Easter - does the whole family church thing maybe but doesnt follow the rules set forth by the religion. Type 2. I should give a watermelon - Feels guilty about lack of association with the church - usually in his late 50's when he starts to need something to look foward to after death - everlasting life is a good choice, right? Hell do the church thing, some community events, hand out communion and maybe even preach a little bit - "spread the word" if you will. Type 3. Fanatical, fundamentalist, maniac, born again, fake. Here is the creme of the religious crop... he follows his religion to a T in his mind and in his speech... but not in his actions... this point is non-negotiable. There exists not one person that "lives by the book" end of story.
Religion as an outdated social control device has about 500 years of existance left IMHO. Obviously we can get very deep into the reasons for this, but the main reason will be our own advancement as a species. Once we can answer questions like "where did we come from?" or "how did this occur?" we will no longer have any need for these silly tales of creating worlds and life in 7 days, water into wine, etc. The human race has a very interesting period of time before it - unfortunatly none of us will see it. A second period of enlightning will erase all need for religion as its purpose will have been fufiled by our own people.
As interested in this topic as I am, I have a far greater interest in how religions came about - this is a far deeper argument - one requiring a great deal of speculation and use of logic (sorry fanatics). If this thread curves toward that direction, Ill share some of my thoughts on the matter.
Mazz
<-TFC->
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I am the last person who should be defending religion. I think that religion is responsible for slowing the progress of humanity by hundreds of years, HOWEVER, most of the morality taught in the Bible is quite good.
Read the "Sermon on the Mount" for clarification.
Religion is (has been) bad, belief in a power other than yourself is not. Morality can be drawn from many sources other than religion.
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Imagine a world without religion all together! (the number would be 100 fold in regards to death, no morals means death to many, think long and hard about this one, religion has saved many more people than it has killed. it just can't be measured)
Hehe, I couldn't let this one slide.
What a bunch of crap.
(http://www.tektalk.net/right2.gif)
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Koala, that flag you proudly fly in your signature? This country was founded on christianity. think about that for awhile. Freedom of religion.
I am by no means an extremely religious person, and I'm not that fond of organized religion, but I am a God-fearing person. That in itself has kept me from getting a stranglehold on pencil necked geeks like yourself ;)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I am the last person who should be defending religion. I think that religion is responsible for slowing the progress of humanity by hundreds of years, HOWEVER, most of the morality taught in the Bible is quite good.
Read the "Sermon on the Mount" for clarification.
Religion is (has been) bad, belief in a power other than yourself is not. Morality can be drawn from many sources other than religion.
REPENT - THE END IS NEAR! :)
First I agree with weazel and sandman on the Bob Byrd thread - now with MT here - excuse me while this little catholic boy runs to confession :)
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>This country was founded on christianity.
Didn't realize we were a Theocracy.
Wab
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
>This country was founded on christianity.
Didn't realize we were a Theocracy.
Wab
"God" is in the consititution, your money, just about everything in your life. Learn to accept it. Or try to change it. Thats whats great about this country, your free to try.
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Celibacy actually means the state of not being married...It is used now to mean abstinance from sex, but that is only because so many people used it out of context that it has become an accepted meaning.
As far as Catholicism goes....I don't think that hypocracy exists in a more pure form.
I suggest a read of "The Malleus Mallificarum" to anyone that thinks otherwise.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
"God" is in the consititution, your money, just about everything in your life. Learn to accept it. Or try to change it. Thats whats great about this country, your free to try.
WRONG. God is not mentioned. Not once in the Constitution of the United States (http://www.house.gov/Constitution/Constitution.html), not in the Preamble (http://www.nara.gov/exhall/charters/billrights/preamble.html), nor in any of the 27 amendments (http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.table.html#amendments).
"In God We Trust" didn't show up on our money until 1864. Our founding fathers had absolutely nothing to do with it.
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As someone whose family was persecuted, by the KKK, for being Catholic, I would like to give a FINGER and a hearty diddly YOU to several on this thread. You know who you are.
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Hope that wasn't aimed at me... :eek:
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I think it was directed at anyone who said anything negative about Catholics...
I hope that you don't think I am KKK though Funkeup...nothing could be further from the truth. I just happen to think that the Catholic Church is hypocritical.
:(
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"I would like to give a FINGER and a hearty diddly YOU to several on this thread"
""God" is in the consititution, your money, just about everything in your life. Learn to accept it"
"That in itself has kept me from getting a stranglehold on pencil necked geeks like yourself "
lol - those must be christian ideas...
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rude: i don't know, but the whole process of being born, living in a dynamic universe and dieing is pretty amazing and that's enough for me.
i think religion is an awakening in a society - when they realize they are a part of something bigger or how complex everything is. the method "religion" just handles the whole thing poorly imo. it wasn't bad for a first try but it's time to grow up.
all the god stories i hear are about gods zapping people and turning them into things and getting jealous over each other and mortals and smiting enemies....would perfect beings really act like that?....they are just echoes of our fears and hopes.
you don't need dogma to have a metaphysical position. all the material in the universe gets eaten up by stars and spit out again and again, the atoms you are made of will be around in some form anyway so you'll always be a part of this system god or not. how consciousness fits in seems irrelevant somehow.
as far as morality goes i think most of us have an instinct for morality - it's not completely relative, i mean it's only grey around a few of the edges not all of them. religion treats those grey areas by chopping them off.
how many people, how many countries would start rampaging out of control without religion? if you even say one, then we are a sad-assed species and we need to make some serious changes...
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I am a God-fearing person. That in itself has kept me from getting a stranglehold on pencil necked geeks like yourself ;)
LOL see? Some people NEED religion to dictate a proper moral conduct. Ripsnort, without even realizing it, has made a point for the pro-God side. Of course MOST of us don't use violence to settle disputes, but then MOST of us don't threaten those we don't agree with.
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Originally posted by funkedup
As someone whose family was persecuted, by the KKK, for being Catholic, I would like to give a FINGER and a hearty diddly YOU to several on this thread. You know who you are.
Father Mcnamara would be very angry with you.:rolleyes:
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KKK persecuting Catholics? Am I just uneducated in this matter or doesn't the KKK uphold Christianity in their warped form? Sorry, but it just sounds like Hitler persecuting Germans... either way that was an idiotic comment... you know who you are.
Mazz
<-TFC->
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Saurdakar you obviously don't know what the diddly you are talking about so why don't you stick it up your bellybutton until it tickles your tonsils?
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funkedup uh...are you a priest?
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Looks like the time is ripe (again) for some potentially offensive quotes from the vast archive (http://www.hedning.no/hedning/arkiv/cookies/) of Det norske Hedningsamfunn (The Norwegian Heathen Society) [btw, StSanta, if you've not already familiar with the archive, I do suggest that you take a look]:
Popes in their notorious infallibility have something to say:
"We [Catholics] are also under an obligation to keep secrets faithfully. And sometimes the easiest way to fulfill that duty is to say what is false, or to tell a lie."
[Catholic Encyclical X, 195]
"So that a false statement knowingly made to one who has a right to the truth will not be a lie."
[Catholic Encyclical IX, 471]
Of religion and the US constitution:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof."
[First Amendment, Bill of Rights, U.S. Constitution]
Muslims trying to out-do their christian brothers:
"The earth is flat, and anyone who disputes this claim is an atheist who deserves to be punished."
[Muslim religious edict, 1993 Sheik Abdel-Aziz Ibn Baaz Supreme religious authority, Saudi Arabia]
St. Augustine makes a point about converting people:
"It is indeed better (as no one ever could deny) that men should be led to worship God by teaching, than that they should be driven to it by fear of punishment or pain; but it does not follow that because the former course produces the better men, therefore those who do not yield to it should be neglected. For many have found advantage (as we have proved, and are daily proving by actual experiment), in being first compelled by fear or pain, so that they might afterwards be influenced by teaching, or might follow out in act what they had already learned in word."
[St. Augustine, Treatise on the Correction of the Donatists (417), p.214]
Some more or less famous Americans also had something to say about religion:
"...the path of true piety is so plain as to require but little political direction."
[George Washington, 1789, responding to clergy complaints that the Constitution lacked mention of Jesus Christ, from "The Godless Constitution: The Case Against Religious Correctness," Isacc Kramnick and R. Laurence Moore W.W. Norton and Company 101-102]
"If they are good workmen, they may be from Asia, Africa or Europe; they may be Mahometans, Jews, Christians of any sect, or they may be Atheists...."
[George Washington, to Tench Tighman, March 24, 1784, when asked what type of workman to get for Mount Vernon, from "The Washington papers" edited by Saul Padover]
"The way to see by Faith is to shut the eye of Reason."
[Benjamin Franklin, Poor Richard, 1758]
"I cannot believe in the immortality of the soul....No, all this talk of an existence beyond the grave is wrong. It is born of our tenacity of life---our desire to go on living---our dread of coming to an end. "
[Thomas Edison, quoted in "2000 Years of Disbelief, Famous People with the Courage to Doubt", by James A. Haught, Prometheus Books, 1996]
"´In God We Trust.´ It is the choicest compliment that has ever been paid us, and the most gratifying to our feelings. It is simple, direct, gracefully phrased; it always sounds well -- In God We Trust. I don´t believe it would sound any better if it were true."
[Mark Twain, from "Mark Twain´s Notebook"]
Even some Europeans had something to say:
"Most of the great men of this world live as if they were atheists. Every man who has lived with his eyes open, knows that the knowledge of a God,his presence, and his justice, has not the slightest influence over the wars, the treaties, the objects of ambition, interest, or pleasure, in the pursuit of which they are wholly occupied."
[Voltaire]
"He who begins by loving Christianity more than Truth, will proceed by loving his sect or church better than Christianity, and end in loving himself better than all."
[Samuel Taylor Coleridge (1772-1834), English poet, critic. Aids to Reflection, "Moral and Religious Aphorisms," aph. 25 (1825; repr. in Works, vol. 1, ed. by Professor Shedd, 1853)]
"O mortal man, think mortal thoughts!"
[Euripides, Alcestis, l. 799]
"We must conduct research and then accept the results. If they don´t stand up to experimentation, Buddha´s own words must be rejected."
[Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama, _Time_ April 11, 1988]
Then a few choice words from a man who put his money where his mouth is:
"Writing for a penny a word is ridiculous. If a man really wants to make a million dollars, the best way would be to start his own religion."
[Scientology founder L. Ron Hubbard, 1949, then just a science fiction writer. Quoted in the New York Times, July 11, 1984, from James A. Haught, ed., 2000 Years of Disbelief]
Whew. And there's a lot more where those came from, more than enough for a hundred threads like these ;)
Now, let's see if we can get this thread to degenerate into a full blown flamewar (remember the E vs C thread), gentlemen, do your worst :cool:
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OK Maybe I overreacted. If you want to piss on clergy who molest kids, I'll join right in. If you want to piss on anybody who belongs to the Church, my comments stand.
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Noooooooo, funked, what are you doing -- you are trying to destroy what was the beginnings of a flame fest to remember :D
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My apologies for my attitude yesterday. Its just that when folks attack ones religious beliefs, I get alittle defensive. Why someone has to go out of their way to justify their beliefs is beyond me. I realize that some go to great lengths, from this message board to the folks ringing your door bell and trying to convert you. I think ones beliefs whether pro-God or anti-God are very sacrid and should be respected by all. If you go looking for a fight, you usually find one. Same goes when you go around bashing ones beliefs for existence on this planet. Best to leave it alone.
and again I apologize if I offended anyone.
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Here is an absolute truth for you guys...accept it or not, it will not change the fact that it is still the truth.
Religion is man made...has nothing to do with God nor his will for us. Jesus Christ himself hated...yes that's right, hated the Pharisee's. They were the Priests and religious men of that day and not unlike today, were full of lies and deceit which served only themselves. Jesus said the following regarding religious men.....
"But all of their works they do for to be seen of men"
There will be a judgement someday, and EVERY knee will bow. It will not matter what ANY of us think...the self righteous spewings of man will never change Gods word and the truth in it.
May God have mercy on us all.
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"Same goes when you go around bashing ones beliefs for existence on this planet. Best to leave it alone. "
Now, that's rich coming from you.
Daff
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Not sure what you said Daff, BBS squelch works great :) But I would imagine its sarcastic.
to you anyway.
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Koala, that flag you proudly fly in your signature? This country was founded on christianity. think about that for awhile. Freedom of religion.
This country was also founded by slaveowners. So what??
I fly the flag because I'm a proud American, who defends your right to be a Christian. But I equally defend the right of someone to be an agnostic, atheist, or Druid as well.
Your "religion = morals" line is just crap. Some of the most "moral" people I know are agnostics and atheists. And some of the slimiest people I know are so-called "Christians" who think they can treat others like crap because they are "saved".
And oh, by the way, I grew up in a devout Catholic household, and was a Catholic altar boy, attended a Catholic grade school, as well as a Catholic high school, so spare me the lesson on morality.
I am by no means an extremely religious person, and I'm not that fond of organized religion, but I am a God-fearing person. That in itself has kept me from getting a stranglehold on pencil necked geeks like yourself ;)
If you are serious here, and your "fear of God" is the only thing that keeps you from murdering people, then I truly feel sorry for you.
(http://www.tektalk.net/right2.gif)