Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Nomde on September 13, 2001, 01:29:00 AM
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Heads up[/i]
This is a post leaning toward religion, if you don't like the subject, don't read further.
This is an open question so I would like only serious replies.
What if...
..We didn't respond to this recent attack
..We talked to the terrorist and resolved our differences
..India and Pakistan resolved their differences
..The Catholics and Protestents in Ireland resolved their differences
..France and Algeria resolved their differences
..White and Blacks resolved their differences
..etc, etc, etc..
It is my understanding that Man receives his spiritual energy from God and that "evil" was removed from God's presence and has no source of spiritual energy of it's own. The energy which sustains "evil" is derived from Man through his thoughts and action. Hense Jesus's reference to "if you think about killing someone, you have already done so".
With that in mind, the power which we wield is terribly awsome, because it is our very thoughts which can save or destroy us all. It could be as simple as thinking "I wish to Love" to remove the very energy which sustains "evil"
There's no doubt that the majority of us wish to live in harmony with each other, whatever your religion. Even if you're atheist you would rather live in harmony with your nieghbor than have to worry about which one you're going to kill tonight.
It appears that alot of the hatred today is revolving around revenge for a past transgression I.E. "you killed my brother so i'm going to kill yours". At some point this must stop or it will grow to destroy us all, because we are all related. (Think about it)
My heart is torn by the tragedy of Tuesday. I want desperately to avenge those attacks and I want to do it calculated and methodically, to get every last one of the bastards. Trust me, I would enjoy my work and I would place in overtime.
Why is it so hard to forgive if that's what it would take to end all the hatred? Is it that we are essentially "evil" and are destined to be removed from God's presense and suffer the "second death"? I would without a second thought, throw myself to the ground and beg forgiveness if I knew that would end all this misery. But there's the silence and uncertainty which overcome me. It's the doubting Thomas syndrome, and there lays the turmoil. My belief is no larger than this grain of sand I hold, how can I make this sand grow....
[ 09-13-2001: Message edited by: Nomde ]
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Why is it so hard to forgive if that's what it would take to end all the hatred? Is it that we are essentially "evil" and are destined to be removed from God's presense and suffer the "second death"? I would without a second thought, throw myself to the ground and beg forgiveness if I knew that would end all this misery. But there's the silence and uncertainty which overcome me. It's the doubting Thomas syndrome, and there lays the turmoil. My belief is no larger than this grain of sand I hold, how can I make this sand grow....
Not a religious person, never have been- but yes. I believe that human beings are, by nature, evil. Or if not evil, perhaps just extremely self-centered and selfish. The man behind the attack Tuesday does not see all the deaths he caused as a tragedy, he sees it as a statistic. He sees it as a means to his end of fame (or infamy).
While I do think that by nature humans are NOT what we might call civilized, we can be raised to live this way. I was raised to live this way. I want to be a police officer, I want to SERVE the community, to help people, to make the world (or at lesat some small part of it) safe. How might I be if my parents hadn't raised me the way they did is an unknowable question. I think everyone has the POTENTIAL to do acts that would be seen as "evil" by other people. I think religion is a useful tool for teaching people how to act "civilized" and become useful and productive members of society. I also feel that it is a steadying influence on society in general, perhaps acting as a deterrent to those more base desires (i.e. to inflict bodily harm on those of Arabic descent, for the only reason that they are of Arabic descent). It just isn't the Christian thing to do- moreover, it isn't the RIGHT, MORAL, or CIVILIZED thing to do.
However, I DO feel that whoever perpitrated this act of violance against our nation needs to be punished, as does the nation that harbors him. Perhaps I am not as "civilized" as I'd like to think.
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Originally posted by Nomde:
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There's no doubt that the majority of us wish to live in harmony with each other, whatever your religion.
It's just that everybody's concept and/or measure of "harmony" is radically different then everybody else's.
miko
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<<<It appears that alot of the hatred today is revolving around revenge for a past transgression I.E. "you killed my brother so i'm going to kill yours". At some point this must stop or it will grow to destroy us all, because we are all related. (Think about it)>>>
Wrong. This is by a man and group who has not acted once and will not stop until they are no longer able to. This man and group has been at war with us for years! He and it is not stopping!
We do not seek bloodlust revenge, but an act that will work towards protecting us and show to those that may have similar thoughts in the future that they bring danger to themselves.
God isn't stopping him nor is he stopping us so this must be what he wants.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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I believe that there is good in everyone, but some people, due to the circumstances in their lives, have lost sight of the light of that goodness. Some, so severely, that it seems not to exist at all. Perhaps by showing the light or our own goodness we can reach some of them.
Just my ignorant opinion.
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Originally posted by Nomde:
[QB]Heads up[/i]
This is a post leaning toward religion, if you don't like the subject, don't read further.
This is an open question so I would like only serious replies.
What if...
..We didn't respond to this recent attack
It would continue until such time as the bad guys had gotten a hold of some WMD (weapons of mass destruction) and then we'd really be in the toejam. Not to mention we'd encourage further acts of terrorism against us. Apeasment leads to bolder and bolder agression.
..We talked to the terrorist and resolved our differences
We are not in a position to give them what they want so it would be a waste of time and also encourage more acts of terrorism. You dont negotiate with terrorists, it only gets you more terrorism.
..India and Pakistan resolved their differences
Nothing would happen other than they'd stop killing each other.
..The Catholics and Protestents in Ireland resolved their differences
same as above
..France and Algeria resolved their differences
Who cares about what happens to the damn frogs. Save'd 'em twice in 1 century and they're still rude.
..White and Blacks resolved their differences
..etc, etc, etc..
We have differences?
My belief, man is essentially good but the competition for scarce resources, ie. food, shelter, security, and the fear of losing them makes him behave in an evil manner. There are of course some leaders who are simply mentally unbalanced and for a myriad of reasons other people follow them though not necessarily because they simply want to commit evil acts.
CRASH
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Nomde my Grandpa told me once "If is the biggest word in the English language” He wasn’t being cynical. He was teaching me about the human race. We are unfortunately what we are. Some good and some…
Enough Said
Goat Out
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Let me ask you this nomde.
If i were to live this way would it garentee my safety? or the safety of my family?
Im sure there were many people amongst those killed in the recent terrorist attack who were God loving people.Possibly some that felt as you do.Who protected them?
and simply if it was you working a normal day and was violently killed, what is the universal sense to it all?
Im disillusioned with it all to be honest.
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Unfortunately Nomde the people who have commited these acts can not be negotiated with. They want nothing less than our death & destruction as individuals, states, and a nation. They see the USA as "the Great Satan", and are determined to drag us down to their level.
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peace is the dream of the wisemen
war is the history of man
sometimes you just have to kill people
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Nomde
I'd be nice but we ain't there yet. Several more rounds of good ole enlightenment are in order first.
I believe you can talk your way through/out of most things but not this. Terrorism is a plague on this earth that needs to be erraticated once and for all. Maybe at that point the rest of us can live in peace as brothers..
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the airlines and school system have forced enough of this brand of religion on us for my lifteime... they have assured us that the only people around us that will be armed are the bad guys. doesn't seem to work out no matter how many signs we put up asking em to behave.
If the bad guys know you will fight back they become polite and well mannered.... sorta like getting religon for all practical purposes.
lazs
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Man is neither evil or good. Those words are human constructs and very relative to a given situation.
As a humanist, I still believe that the basic drive in humans is to improve, not to destroy. I don't buy the Judeo-Christian postulate that we're all sinners and all bad, and all in need of divine assistance. To me, such a derogatory understanding of the human condition can only make the situation worse; not only are we bad by design, we're also supposed to be guilt ridden about it.
The less we depend on the divine for help on improving ourselves, and the more we personally try to, the better. Action speaks louder than words, or wishes. This is just a pragmatic approach
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..We talked to the terrorist and resolved our differences
We are not in a position to give them what they want so it would be a waste of time and also encourage more acts of terrorism. You dont negotiate with terrorists, it only gets you more terrorism.
We do not want to give them what they want. They want to kill - it's that simple. You want to die? I don't and I'm prepared to fight against anyone who thinks they can take lives. To think that they have some sort of other "agenda" is naive to say the least.
You want to make a statement of your "unhappiness" with America's policies? Hire a transport plane and fly it into a Statue of Liberty. Minimal loss of life - maximum impact. They hijacked passenger planes and flew them into the WTC. Aim? To kill as many as possible. They flew around Washington - the President (thank God) was not "home" so they hit another building which would be full of people at the time. You still want to "negotiate" with them? Try changing medication - the stuff you're on is not working.
:eek:
Why is it so hard to forgive? Is it because some things are unforgivable? This "turn the other cheek" attitude is exactly what they want... And you just wait and see the hordes of lawyers emerging from under some slimy stone to "defend" those arrested in connection with the last Tuesday's events... Rabid dogs are exterminated so should these creatures be.
:mad:
[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: -lynx- ]
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O'Club
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To the terrorists who undertook the attack on the WTC recently what they were doing did'nt constitute a crime. In their minds what they were doing was attacking the United States of America. The people in the WTC were not innocent civilians but the enemy, the economic machines powering the might of the US. That was their view I would imagine. I don't believe they were evil at all, I think they simply live in a world so culturally different from the people of the US and most of the rest of the world that for us to understand them or their acts is impossible. I'm sure in their world they will be regarded as hero's, not madmen.
However, the US and the rest of the world need and expect, due again to our culture and beliefs, revenge and self-protection and this can only be acheived by retaliating against these types of actions. I don't believe that we will ever be able to make these people feel apologetic or sorry for what they have done, just as they will never be able to make us understand why what they did was necessary.
I don't believe there is a solution to this problem at all. However I do feel that retaliation will bring some closure and a feeling of justice done for the American people.
Just my opinion, btw Urchin I agree totally with your initial post.
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I dont agree that folks want to live in harmony with everyone else. They wont to live in harmony with folks who think feel and act like them.
There are certain things in life that are just intolerable for me put up with. I am not one to "go along just to get along" and i'm not alone.
In this world as well as the universe in general might makes right period.
In each person family culture there is a "will to power" the need to dictate the course of life in a way that best serves that particular cultural interest.
America has it army corps and cannoneers to protect and expand its will to power or it better terms "american intrests".
Force rules all organic life and great sorrow is the elixr of change. Sorrow is what motivates man to act. Out of mans sufferage comes some of his greatest works.
Should we desire to eleminate suffering?
Nature in her eternal wisdom makes no false judgements. Her decision are just even when dreadfull. Should we desire to change the nature of things to satisfy us all? Is it possible? How far are willing to comprise for "harmony"?
all your theological ideas and wishfull thinking (faith) has done very little to supress mans true nature.
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Thank you all for your insight and responses. Please let this thread die and take it to the "O club"