Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FDutchmn on March 07, 2002, 10:42:27 AM
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Gentlemen (Ladies too),
This is a petition to change the name of the Hein to that of a more appropriate nomenclature. To brief you on the background of this issue, please refer to the following:
1. News (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=14616) (Prior to 1.07 release)
2. What is the Ki-61-I-KAIc (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45476) (in Aircraft and Vehicles)
The issue that is being brought forward is that the name Ki-61-I-KAIc used in AH does not seem to exist. My belief is that translations from Japanese was not done or understood correctly before which led to a nomenclature which was not existent or used in Japan.
I do find documentation referring to the Ki-61-I-KAIc as a subtype for the Hein, for example at Aircraft of the World (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/) by Mr. J. Baugher. (By the way, this post is not to criticize Mr. Baugher's work in any way.)
Here, the nomenclature uses a, b, c, d, etc as a subtype of the Hein, referring to the Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei, etc. However, this translation of the subtypes is what is actually contributing to the confusion. The "c" on the Ki-61-I-KAIc would suggest that the one we have on AH is a Hei model [the third subtype.]
The following is an example of documentation we can find in Japan on the Hein:
Source: ISBN4-7698-0911-5
Title: Type 3 Fighter Hein and Type 5 Fighter - Each Model, Combat Records, Paintings and Markings (Pages 120 - )
Author: Mr. Minoru Akimoto, an aviation researcher
(http://member.nifty.ne.jp/flying_dutchman/aces/type3and5a.jpg)
Here is an excerpt on the Ki-61-I-Hei:
(http://member.nifty.ne.jp/flying_dutchman/aces/type3and5b.jpg)
Translation by me...
"Wing mounted guns were replaced by the Mauser MG151 20mm cannons imported from Germany, making the armament two 12.7mm machine guns and two 20mm cannons. ... "
And here is the one for Ki-61-I-Tei:
(http://member.nifty.ne.jp/flying_dutchman/aces/type3and5c.jpg)
"In the beginning, this model was called the Type 3 Model 1 Fighter KAI, Type 3 Model 1 KAI Fighter, or the Ki-61-I-KAI. To improve the armament, the fuselage mounted guns were replaced with the Ho-5 20mm cannons ..."
It is the case that Ki-61-I-KAI is the Tei subtype, as referred to in documents in Japan. The "c" in itself is confusing.
Therefore, instead of using translations, I would like to suggest using the nomenclature used in Japan and write them as Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei, etc as we would pronounce them and as seen in the profiles of the Ki-61s that I posted in the thread What is the Ki-61-I-KAIc (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45476) (in Aircraft and Vehicles) This would avoid misconceptions and misunderstandings because references and documentations in Japan would directly refer to it.
I would like to start this petition to rename the Hein on AH to Ki-61-I-Tei or Ki-61-I-KAI. I prefer Ki-61-I-Tei because it was used officially.
Those who agree, please say aye! Nay's are also welcome :)
More to follow...
oh yeah... please thank Mitsu for the scanned images of the articles. He gave me a lot more, but for now I chose to show these one here because the post will become very heavy to display.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
Those who agree, please say aye! Nay's are also welcome :)
Er, how about one of these...(http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/edoom/sleeping.gif)(http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/edoom/sleeping.gif)(http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/edoom/sleeping.gif)(http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/edoom/sleeping.gif)(http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/edoom/sleeping.gif)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Er, how about one of these...(http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/edoom/sleeping.gif)(http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/edoom/sleeping.gif)(http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/edoom/sleeping.gif)(http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/edoom/sleeping.gif)(http://216.40.201.155/s/contrib/edoom/sleeping.gif)
:p
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I read it twice, and still don't understand....
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by LePaul
I read it twice, and still don't understand....
:rolleyes:
hmmm... ok...
I wanted to take this step by step but it seems I have to bring another aspect to make this case.
The Ki-61-I-KAIc as modelled on AH did not exist in reality when we take a look at documents in Japan. For example, as Mitsu pointed out, there is an issue with fuel tanks.
There are currently three fuel tanks, the Right Wing, Left Wing and AUX fuel tanks. And it carries the Ho-5 20mm cannons.
The Ki-61-I-Hei had three fuel tanks but did not carry the Ho-5 20mms (had the MG151 instead). The Ki-61-I-Tei had four fuel tanks (aft fuel tank was added) and carried the Ho-5 20mms. The fact here is that the number of fuel tanks and the type of guns it carries does not match.
Our point (mine and Mitsu's... and several other players) feel that something is not right here and can be corrected. If we can do this, then we should start by correcting the name first, so we have a common basis on what we are talking about.
I can translate the article and give a summary of the modification by subtypes and the reasons for the modifications but, well... that will take a lot of effort on my part. (I will try to do that soon)
more to follow...
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If your saying the model doesn't coincide with the aircraft, than I changed my sleepy smiley to a plea to either A)Change the aircraft in AH to match the name...or B) Change the name to match the aircraft.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
If your saying the model doesn't coincide with the aircraft, than I changed my sleepy smiley to a plea to either A)Change the aircraft in AH to match the name...or B) Change the name to match the aircraft.
Yep, ya got it... however, the solution isn't that simple I am afraid...
Here is a summary on the situation...
Ki-61 on AH:- Number of Fuel Tanks - 3
- Armament - Fuselage mounted Ho-5 20mm Cannons x 2, Wing mounted H103 12.7mm x 2
Ki-61-I-Hei:- Number of Fuel Tanks - 3
- Armament - Wing mounted MG151 20mm Cannons x 2, Fuselage mounted H103 12.7mm x 2
Ki-61-I-Tei:- Number of Fuel Tanks - 4
- Armament - Fuselage mounted Ho-5 20mm Cannons x 2, Wing mounted H103 12.7mm x 2
The way I see it, the possible solutions are:
1. call it the Ki-61-I-Hei, change the guns to MG151 asynchronized
or
2. call it the Ki-61-I-Tei, add an extra fuel tank, and change the paint job cuz it's the one for Ki-61-I-Hei
I prefer solution 2....
more to follow....
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Thanks for clarifying
Now I follow!
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*yawn* gonna go trim my toenails for some real excitement.
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Originally posted by AmRaaM
*yawn* gonna go trim my toenails for some real excitement.
:p
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If you don't understand, carry Ki-61-I-Tei's history on the Aces High Help. :D
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How did the ammo load for the wing-monted MG151 cannons compare to the ammo load for the nose-mounted Ho-5's?
J_A_B
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i want to call it "ki61-Tei" too:)
"tei" has a little Long nosed(200mm longer nose, than earlier models called" ki61-kou ,otu & hei)
and bad Power/weight ratio than earlier models.
i want call their model types, in japanese Langage :)
(Otu, Hei, Tei)
I think, Best balance of Ki-61 was "Kou & Otu"
but without 20mm canon(i can't shot down nmes,without 20mm;)
but well turn & climb than "Tei" i think.
ki-61 's Early battle main fields is New Guinea i think.
at New Guinea, main type was ki61"Kou" & "Otu" &"Hei"
(Hei=20mm Mauser wing mounted)
Nose Wing
Kou 12.7 7.7mm
Otu 12.7 12.7mm
Hei 12.7 20mm
Tei 20 12.7mm (Long nosed +200mm)
My Best plane is ki61:) (for Lo-Alt sissers & small-R -turned~HO fight:)
& very strong for Dive~ high-G- Pull up:)
& very fast cycle canon(type-Tei's Ho-5 20mm)
(bullet is light weght=a little Lo stopping power, but very fast cycles:)
best styling Plane in WW2 i think:)
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puNT.
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Guys, guys,...
Repeat after me...
Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei,... (all with short vowel sounds)
In Japanese, these words designate the order of things. Ko would be the first, Otsu the second, Hei the third, and Tei the fourth.
So, in translations, to designate the subtypes of a certain aircraft, Ko would be translated as a, Otsu as b, Hei as c, and Tei as d.
Keeping this in mind... sorry DblTrbl, not to pick on you or anything, but from your post on Gun Synchronization (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s
=&threadid=45179)...
One source I found says that 388 Ki-61 Ia and Ki-61 Ib had the MG151/20 installed in the wings in place of the original machine guns and were then referred to as Ki-61 Ia otsu and Ki-61 Ib otsu.
"Ki-61-Ia ostu" be translated as "Ki-61 Ia b" and "Ki-61 Ib otsu" as "Ki-61 Ib b"? Kinda odd don't you think? Furthermore, replacing the wing mounted guns with the MG151/20 will make these two planes effectively the same plane with the same armament.
This is the level or quality of translations that we usually see. And from this we can safely say that "non-existing" nomenclature is being used quite often.
So, to get away from these "non-existing" nomenclatures and mistranslations, let us use the original ones that we (all of us) see in Japan, calling it by the Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei, etc.
Getting back to our subject on our beloved Ki-61s...
As Mitsu already pointed out,
Ki-61-I-Ko (Ki-61-I-a) has 2 12.7mm and 2 7.7mm.
Ki-61-I-Otsu (Ki-61-I-b) has 4 12.7mm.
This coincides with the documentation on Aircrafts of the World (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki-61.html#RTFToC1). However, in this documentation , the Ki-61s with the MG151 20mm cannons are not given a subtype of its own when it is clearly stated in the Japanese material I have presented that the Ki-61s with the German cannons installed is the Ki-61-I-Hei, a subtype of its own. I would say that if we are to translate Ki-61-I-Hei, it would be the Ki-61-I-c. Where did the Ki-61-I-c go?
If we translate the term "Ki-61-I-KAIc" back to Japanese, we would see it as Ki-61-I-KAI-Hei? I am very much suspecting that this is a result of misunderstandings in the translations.
Like Mitsu and Sekiji, I, as a member of this community, would like to establish a common ground to discuss issues of Japanese planes. Nomenclature happens to be part of this common ground.
I suspect that the reason why Asahi Journal posted the profiles of the Ki-61s with the nomenclature used in Japan was that it was also trying to circumvent all these "non-existing" nomenclatures.
As I mentioned earlier, please, let's use the Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei designations so that it coincide with original nomenclatures used in Japan.
As for our "Ki-61-I-KAIc", some of the characteristics matches that of the Ki-61-I-Tei (Ki-61-I-d if we translate it). For example, the nose was lengthened by 200mm, and they both carry the Ho-5 cannons.
Let's call our bird Ki-61-I-Tei or Ki-61-I-KAI at least. Other corrections can come later. I have seen arguments to correct the Spits in other threads, well... this argument that I am presenting here is also on the same dimension.
BTW, J_A_B, I have not forgotten about your question. Kindly let me or Mitsu get back to you.
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If were going to get that far into detail Dutchmann.. i think aces should start having,,,,
Accurate representations of the internal modeling of the aircraft.
(ie,.... Accurate instruments... languages.. for each plane, the way parts of the instruments look,.. and other signifcant pertenant relfections of what the aircraft truely look like, as to correspoond to the level of naming detail that you speak.)
How about it Hitech?.. very detailed.. cockpits.. ala IL2 to match the very specific naming conventions used for each type.. and the associated languages that are marked on each planes surface/interior?.
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Originally posted by jbroey3
If were going to get that far into detail Dutchmann.. i think aces should start having,,,,
Accurate representations of the internal modeling of the aircraft.
(ie,.... Accurate instruments... languages.. for each plane, the way parts of the instruments look,.. and other signifcant pertenant relfections of what the aircraft truely look like, as to correspoond to the level of naming detail that you speak.)
How about it Hitech?.. very detailed.. cockpits.. ala IL2 to match the very specific naming conventions used for each type.. and the associated languages that are marked on each planes surface/interior?.
Hiya jbroey3,
Thanks for your interest. I would too be interested in using gauges that shows in the metric system for example.
However, that is slightly more than what we are asking for at the moment I think. Kindly allow me to show you another side of this story, really specific to HTC...
Imagine yourself as Mitsu, for one moment, who was asked by HTC to provide him with a paint job for the Ki-61.
(Disclaimer: the following conversation is a recreation of a story Mitsu told me, can be denied by anyone, cause it's just a rumor )
Superfly - "Mitsu, would you be kind enough to provide me a paint scheme of the Ki-61?"
Mitsu - "Sure, Superfly, which one?"
Superfly - "the Ki-61-I-KAIc."
Mitsu - :confused: (I haven't heard of that before...) "Is that the third subtype or the fourth one?"
Superfly - :confused: (Why the question?... oh well...) "It's the third one I believe. Isn't it the Ki-61-I-c?"
Mitsu - "Oh, the Ki-61-I-c, then it must be the third subtype. Ok, let me go take a look... ahh this is a nice one, it's the Ki-61-I-Hei of Commander Kobayashi of the 244th Fighter Squadron."
Superfly - "Thanks Mitsu! Appreciate it!" :)
Mitsu - "Anytime Superfly! Glad to be of help!" :)
Mitsu - "Ahh the Hien is coming "
In the meantime at the HTC HQ...
Pyro - "Ok, time for the release! Superfly, you got the artwork for me?"
Superfly - "Oh yes I do, right here.. the Ki-61-I-Hei."
Pyro - :confused: (I haven't heard of that before...) "ah... which one is it?"
Superfly - "the Ki-61-I-Hei, like you asked, the Ki-61-I-c"
Pyro - "You mean the Ki-61-I-KAIc, the third subtype?"
Superfly - "Oh yeah the third one yes."
Pyro - "Good, the one with the Ho-5"
Superfly - :confused: "No..."
Pyro - :confused: "eh?"
Superfly - "no, it doesn't have the Ho-5"
Pyro - "But it's the third subtype, right?"
Superfly - "Yes, but no Ho-5"
The whole HTC - :confused:
When the announcement came...
Mitsu - "Uh, oh..." (calls on Superfly...) "Superfly... I thought you told me the Model 1 Hei?"
Superfly - "Sorry my man, we don't know what is going on. In short, we are confused, kindly forward me the paint job for the Ki-61-I-Tei, and we'll work things out on our end..."
Really, this is a problem of using several conventions to refer to the same thing.
As I implied earlier, I am sure HTC was able to find documentation refering to the Ki-61-I-KAIc which describes it the way it is modelled right now on AH. However, can we find the same plane in Japanese documents? Answer is no.
I am also sure that people like Mitsu will be called on again to help out with HTC, of which we would be glad to help out.
For information on Ki-61, please refer to this thread: Info on the Ki61 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47692)
Well, that's it for now...
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hehe...FD...you da man. thanks.
now it's time to change the name of the Ki-61 right? :D
also Ki-67 doesn't have full name now.
it should be Ki-67-I-Otsu. :)
-Mitsu
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I'm definately FOR changing the name of the "tony" to match the aircraft. Anything that brings more true immersion to the game is just fine with me. Where do I sign the petition??????
:)
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My brain hurts. If the Ki-61 in AH never existed, we should change it to one that did exist. Who cares what they call it, that is secondary. Let's call it Tony.
ra
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Let's learn it. :)
If you have an interest.
We can provide for you any information by internet. ;)
Mit
------------
Mitsu
Stab./JG1 "Oesau" (http://www.dd.iij4u.or.jp/~nobo/jg1/)
"Let me fly Tony, it's an Axis plane!"
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Originally posted by ra
My brain hurts.
hehehe I am sure it does. And I am sure that is the state of everyone's mind, also at HTC when they are tackling this issue.
Originally posted by ra
If the Ki-61 in AH never existed, we should change it to one that did exist. Who cares what they call it, that is secondary. Let's call it Tony.
Yeah, we can also take that approach. It's like Chicken or the Egg. Talk about the name first to clarify what we model or model it first and name it later. I opt to clarify the name first so we wouldn't have to deal with this issue over and over again.
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FD: Thanks for keeping on this, I swear i learn more history reading this BBS from people like you, than i ever could in a class :) On the subject matter, I agree. and hope HTC does change the name to more closely reflect the model of KI-61 we have. I do have a question, on the model that more closely resembles the one we have armament wise(the KI-61-I-Tei) I am curious, did the 4 fuel tanks mean the version had more fuel? what were the capacity of them then? or was it the same amount of fuel, only in 2 smaller tanks? I am sure HTC would need specifications on the tanks, and wieght distribution of fuel with them were they to correct the model we have. Also, If they do change the name, i hope before they finalize any changes they add another KI-61, and that being the -I-Hei, because it would be a shame to waste the beautiful artwork Superfly did on it. I honestly think that if they do alter anything with it, that they would change it to the -I-Hei version, and just swap out the guns, modeling another paint scheme would probably be a pain. Has anyone from HTC contacted you or Mitsu on this? Hey Pyro, HT, Any comments?
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Hiya Hamish!
Thanks for your response. :) Kindly refer to this thread too: Info on the Ki61 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47692)
Originally posted by Hamish
I do have a question, on the model that more closely resembles the one we have armament wise(the KI-61-I-Tei) I am curious, did the 4 fuel tanks mean the version had more fuel? what were the capacity of them then? or was it the same amount of fuel, only in 2 smaller tanks? I am sure HTC would need specifications on the tanks, and wieght distribution of fuel with them were they to correct the model we have.
Sizes of the tanks are stated in the thread above. The fourth tank gives the Ki-61-1-Tei 95 liters more capacity than the Ki-61-I-Hei. This was located aft of the pilot's seat if I remember correctly. We have a diagram (together with the caption) describes where it is located.
Originally posted by Hamish
Also, If they do change the name, i hope before they finalize any changes they add another KI-61, and that being the -I-Hei, because it would be a shame to waste the beautiful artwork Superfly did on it. I honestly think that if they do alter anything with it, that they would change it to the -I-Hei version, and just swap out the guns, modeling another paint scheme would probably be a pain.
You mean,... make another version of the Ki-61 and have the Ki-61-I-Hei and the Ki-61-I-Tei available on AH? Hey, that's a thought! :D Kinda want the Ki-61-II-Kai too...
To answer J_A_Bs question, as far as we know (well... Mitsu, he is more of the expert), in the autobiography of Mr. S. Koyama, pilot of the Ki-61 at 68th Fighter Squadron where the Ki-61 was used, it says that the MG151/20 on the Ki-61-I-Hei carried 150 rounds each (as compared to 120 rpg on the Ho-5 on the Ki-61-I-Tei). I am wondering if this coincides with the description Mr. Tony Williams gave us on this thread: What is the Ki-61-I-KAIc (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=45476)
Originally posted by Tony Williams
However, the Ki-61-1b was fitted with a pair of imported 20mm MG 151 cannon, chambered for a fifth round, the Mauser 20x82.
will that allow for 150 rounds on a gun? nahhh, it must be chamber where the belt was kept. this point might be irrelevant. Me no expert on guns :D
welp, that's it for now...
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HT please change the Name, this Japanwhinners makes a Luftwobble very nervous :D :D :D :D :D
my vote is change Name to Tai, and add the Aux Tank in., and give that nice Plane the right camuflough
greets
ede
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No need for apologies FD. I don't feel picked on. ;) The Hein is my favorite Japanese aircraft, but unfortunately I'm still rather ignorant about many details of its development and career in service...including (obviously) nomenclature. Credible information about Japanese planes is simply not as readily available here as it is for many allied types. At least in my experience.
The info I posted in that other thread was the most detailed I could find with a quick web search. It was from a site for scale modelers and I was a little skeptical of its accuracy but decided to throw it out there anyway. I might also clarify that it called the variants in question "Ki-61-Ia (modified) or (otsu)", and "Ki-61-Ib (modified) or (otsu)". The use of both terms and the ( ) was/is a little confusing to me. I don't speak Japanese and figured it was being translated for ignoramuses like myself so I just posted the "otsu" part. In any case, my main motivation for posting was to shed some light on the number of aircraft that recieved the MG 151s, as Mitsu's post before mine did not give a specific number, iirc. 388...was that part right at least? :D
BTW...great info in this thread, and I agree completely. If the model doesn't match the name...FIX IT!! And while you're at it HTC...why not just give us a couple more Kawasakis. I'd love a Ki-61-II (which one had 4 Ho-5s? Did such a creature acually exist? )and a Ki-100.
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FD, did Mandoble put you up to this?
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Originally posted by Seeker
FD, did Mandoble put you up to this?
Cant get it Seeker ...
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Originally posted by jbroey3
as to correspoond to the level of naming detail that you speak. the very specific naming conventions used for each type..
This comment has been kinda bothering me a bit, cuz I am not a historian and not at all knowledgable into WW2 aircrafts, so I have a question...
How many naming conventions are there for an allied aircraft, especially that of the British and the Americans and Canadians where it uses the English language to begin with? Isn't there only one for one specific plane?
Please enlighten me...
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Originally posted by Hamish
Has anyone from HTC contacted you or Mitsu on this?
bahhhhh,
unfortunately no... I hope they are reading this thread...
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Originally posted by Wulfmen
HT please change the Name, this Japanwhinners makes a Luftwobble very nervous :D :D :D :D :D
bahhhhh... we are the whiners from the rising sun
hiya ede!
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Originally posted by DblTrubl
If the model doesn't match the name...FIX IT!!
the key is whether HTC will buy into the credibility of our sources... I am sure their have thiers...
Originally posted by DblTrubl
I'd love a Ki-61-II (which one had 4 Ho-5s? Did such a creature acually exist? )and a Ki-100.
According to the material that I translated, there were eight Ki-61-II created by January, 1944 at which time the project was cancelled. It does say that the armament was the same as the Ki-61-I-Tei and that plans were made to have four Ho-5 cannons. But because the engine for it, the Ha-140 had some difficulties...
The first prototype of the Ki-61-II-Kai was made on April 1944, using the airframe of the Ki-61-I-Tei. The material did not say anything about the armaments.
Production for the Ki-61-II-Kai began in September 1944, and a total of 374 airframes were produced but because of the Ha-140 having difficulties, only 99 of those airframes got engines. The rest was used for the Ki-100.
well that's it for now...
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Originally posted by Seeker
FD, did Mandoble put you up to this?
Mandoble? nahhh it was Mitsu
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whining sun :D
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Japanwhiner? :)
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I am sory I missed this thread, I agree compleatly, it explains why I cant seam to find this plane (the exact model in my books)in my books, Also I would rather stick with the Ho-5 canon I prefer it to the MG 151/20.
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sorry i tried to 'get interested' in this but that damn exciting paint drying on the wall keeps putting me off :D
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Originally posted by hazed-
sorry i tried to 'get interested' in this but that damn exciting paint drying on the wall keeps putting me off :D
Woh... come back from a business trip to NY and find this thread revived... :D
Brady, thanks for your interest. :) I have contacted Superfly and also sent an email to Pyro on this. I hope they will work on this soon.
Hazed, kindly allow me to summarize this for you.
The Issue: The Ki-61-KAIc cannot be found in the Japanese documents, neither the name or the plane as modelled on AH.
The Problem: This arises from the fact that the nomenclature used to identify the planes do not coincide between American sources and Japanese sources, possibly due to bad translations.
My approach: Two steps - 1. Establish a common ground in this community on what plane we are talking about. Basically agree on the name and nomenclature used to call our planes. 2. correct the modelling to reflect the plane.
My proposal is to call it the way the IJAAF called it way back when, using the Ko, Otsu, Hei, Tei designations to refer to subtypes. In the case of our beloved Tony, it would be the Ki-61-I-Tei. Then we add the extra fuel tank and correct the paint scheme.
I shudda made it more simple in the first place... but kinda got involved in all the documents and everything else... :)
that's it for now...
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FD, That's great!
:)
-Mitsu
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I've only ever known that plane as a "Tony" or "Hien", and presumed that the later was a more accurate name for it, being the Japanese name for it (I thought). I hadn't a clue that might not be the case!
I'd say go with original Japanese documents, if possible. Use the Japanese nomenclature, and if us lazy English-speakers still prefer to call it by the US codename for the plane sometimes, that's down to personal preference, but I for one WOULD like to know the proper nomenclature, just as I do with LW and RAF planes.
Now, if we can only get those crazy Americans to use some kind of sensible nomenclature instead of their half-arsed system... ;-) ... *
:-)
Esme
* I seriously do NOT understand the system(s?) used by the US in WW2. How come both the Wildcat and Corsair are F4's? Crazy!
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I guess this is just like us Americans arguing about, "Whats the difference between the F4U-1 and the F4U-1D"
....But in Japanese.
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Originally posted by LtHans
I guess this is just like us Americans arguing about, "Whats the difference between the F4U-1 and the F4U-1D"
....But in Japanese.
Not quite, LtHans.
The F4U-1 and the F4U-1D existed... however, the Ki-61-I-KAIc does not, while Ki-61-I-Tei (or Ki-61-I-KAI) does.
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punt
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hello
I propose another problem about HIEN(Ki-61).
It is expression of a radiator.
The rear is wide opened for the radiator of HIEN(Ki-61).
I expect that a perfect HIEN TEI type(Ki-61-Tei) will be reproduced.
Also a name(it KAIc now.), paint(it Hei type now), fuel(it Hei type now), and a radiator(it has closed now)!!
But there is a good method.:D
It packs a nose of an airplane 200mm.
And the machine gun is changed into Hei type(Ki-61 hei(Ki-61-Ic)) equipment.
We are convinced by doing so, without changing a fuel tank and paint.
- Tatyu
TOKYO SHOCK BOYS [Houchi Play]
Give me the Hien strong against TnB
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Originally posted by Tatyu
radiator(it has closed now)!!
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=48184
same report here.
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Please modify Ki-61 flaps shape.
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=432101)
(http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/attachment.php?s=&postid=432105)
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pull up
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FDutchmn,
Excellent post on the way to disagree with the way something is represented in AH by trying to post factual documents. I am not an expert on japanese aircraft so I have no opinion on whether a change needs to be implemented. Just saying that trying to prove your case with fact rather than the usual "I know this plane outurns that plane cause I am an awesome sim pilot" is rereshing.
Jarbo
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Kaboom.
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puntski ;)
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
Yep, ya got it... however, the solution isn't that simple I am afraid...
Here is a summary on the situation...
Ki-61 on AH:- Number of Fuel Tanks - 3
- Armament - Fuselage mounted Ho-5 20mm Cannons x 2, Wing mounted H103 12.7mm x 2
Ki-61-I-Hei:- Number of Fuel Tanks - 3
- Armament - Wing mounted MG151 20mm Cannons x 2, Fuselage mounted H103 12.7mm x 2
Ki-61-I-Tei:- Number of Fuel Tanks - 4
- Armament - Fuselage mounted Ho-5 20mm Cannons x 2, Wing mounted H103 12.7mm x 2
The way I see it, the possible solutions are:
1. call it the Ki-61-I-Hei, change the guns to MG151 asynchronized
or
2. call it the Ki-61-I-Tei, add an extra fuel tank, and change the paint job cuz it's the one for Ki-61-I-Hei
I prefer solution 2....
more to follow.... [/B]
Better stay with solution 2... if you let them stick anything German in it... you will have shorter range and less lethality. But that is another issue. Try and get the long range Hispanos.....
(heya FD)
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So, at least, Ki-61's name and fuel issues would be solved in V1.10??
I need info...:(
I am a pilot of the Imperial Japanese Whiner Force. :rolleyes:
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jarbo, thanks for the plug... I worked on this thread ;)
hiya soup! yes I would like to go with option 2 as well :)
Mitsu, hey we the Whiners from the Rising Sun :D
should HTC make changes according to what we suggested, they would need to do the following:
1. add fuel tank - which would mean to re-calculate the fuel load and its effect on the Flight Model
2. change the paint scheme
3. migrate the directory for Ki611c to Ki611d
no word on whether HTC will do this or not yet...
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i think 2. and 3. should be reversed.
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ahhh Mitsu, if this was to be placed in the order of priority, I would have it in this order... plus I forgot to mention the most important thing...
1. Change the name of the Hien to Ki-61-1-Tei, on the game and the websites,
2. Migrate the directory for Ki611c to Ki611tei
3. add fuel tank - which would mean to re-calculate the fuel load and its effect on the Flight Model
4. change the paint scheme
hehehe not the ki611d cuz it can lead to confusion, which is the main argument of this thread :)
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punt for patches or new version. :(
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I've been flying this plane exclusively this tour just to check it out and it's a sweet plane. I don't know much about it, but it seems like a reasonable request. I have a question about the Ho-5 cannons. Are they the Browning copies that were made larger? And do you have any ballistic info on them? They seem to pack a great punch. Was the engine a copy built DB601 or 603? Thanks.
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punt
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Lol..Nice thread!
I'm just starting to appreciate this plane.Nice nose cannons and just plain cool vibe to fly!
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punt.
.tnup
p
u
n
t
.
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:(
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Punt:)
I whine for the Empire as well......
and other underrepresented countries:)
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adding another strong point :)
.
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correct Ki-61-I-Tei's paint scheme... :)
C.O Kobayashi, 244th Sentai.
(http://www.uranus.dti.ne.jp/~mitty/battoutai/images/JT14.jpg)
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hey Fdutchman, are you dutch? cause im to
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Change it please.
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Only one thing....It's not "Hein" it's: "Hien", pronounced "hee-en". (Alllied code name "Tony".)
MRPLUTO, VMF-323 ~Death Rattlers~ MAG-33
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Originally posted by MRPLUTO
Only one thing....It's not "Hein" it's: "Hien", pronounced "hee-en". (Alllied code name "Tony".)
Thanks MrPluto, that was a typo and we caught it a while back... but we could not edit the title once we submitted the thread.
Originally posted by frank3
hey Fdutchman, are you dutch? cause im to
Sorry, frank-san. Me no Dutch. :D
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Oops..Thought this was the KI-84 thread.
My appologies..
:cool:
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interesting reading
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What a crib of a German design!
I hope they remove the Ki-61 from AH altogether.
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Originally posted by Nath[BDP]
What a crib of a German design!
I hope they remove the Ki-61 from AH altogether.
Nath,
you have a problem with the Ki-61?
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troll alert...
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FDutchmn,
NathBDP either has a longstanding problem with the Japanese (I've never seen him say anything nice, or nuetral, about them) or he is a dedicated troll on the subject.
Personally I think he has a problem with Asians. The best solution is to ignore him.
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rgr that Karnak, Mitsu. Thanks.
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I vote change the name.....or the plane whichever is neeeded to make the correction.
Hajo
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Do I have a problem with the KI-61? Yes.
I believe that HTC shouldn't waste their time on a plane that was so worthless/unimportant in real life, as it is in AH. I would rather have them work on planes from combatants that actually knew how to build effective weapons and use them effectively as well.
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Originally posted by Nath[BDP]
Do I have a problem with the KI-61? Yes.
I believe that HTC shouldn't waste their time on a plane that was so worthless/unimportant in real life, as it is in AH. I would rather have them work on planes from combatants that actually knew how to build effective weapons and use them effectively as well.
Your opinion is noted. Thank you.
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AYE well if we want to please mitsu and we all do ;).
Im sure hitech as soon as he is told and realizes [If he hasnt already] he will change if not it is his decision and im all for it due to the fact i dont fly the dang thing.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
Your opinion is noted. Thank you.
Try fact.
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Originally posted by Nath[BDP]
Try fact.
Well, Nath[BDP], with all due respect, sir, if you really think so, please initiate another thread and make your case there as your wishes of removing the Ki-61 is not within the scope of this one.
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Originally posted by Nath[BDP]
Try fact.
No that was an opinion, here is a example of a fact.
Fact: Nath[BDP] is a complete imbecile. I actually found this definition for "fact" at dictionary.com. You have quite a reputation for stupidity! Congrats .
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rolf
I should prolly wait and see if more come out ze hills first, but....
a plane that was so worthless/unimportant in real life, as it is in AH
...
planes from combatants that actually knew how to build effective weapons and use them effectively as well.
fact
its also a fact that HTC won't bother with the Ki-61. I'm probably actually helping you.
I'd like to see the Ki-84 before we get any more Nipponese copies of German a/c.
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Originally posted by Nath[BDP]
its also a fact that HTC won't bother with the Ki-61. I'm probably actually helping you.
I'd like to see the Ki-84 before we get any more Nipponese copies of German a/c.
You mean like how the bearcat was a copy of the 190?
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Thrawn, Nath[BDP],
Please keep the discussion on topic.
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Originally posted by FDutchmn
Thrawn, Nath[BDP],
Please keep the discussion on topic.
Okay.
Yes, I believe FDutchmn finds me very sexy. Oh yeah, and fix the Ki-61's name please.
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NathBDP,
Just one point, but the only thing the Ki-61 has in common with the Bf109 is the engine. The rest was an original design, not based on the Bf109.
If using the same engine makes an aircraft a copy, the Spitfire is a copy of the Hurricane and the P-51A is a copy of the P-40.
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Karnak, you know what they say...let sleeping dogs lie. :rolleyes:
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plueeeeeeezze :)
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Let's call it a Tony and leave it at that :)
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Originally posted by EDO43
Let's call it a Tony and leave it at that :)
oh yeah we could do that... but I'd rather call it with a more specifically... I mean, we would like to be specific about Spitfires, Bf109s and F4Us, no? :)
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*punt*
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Nath,don't be so egotesticle...
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:/
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Yay.
As far as I'm concerned, each plane should be named by its native country's nomenclature. I would even like to see the name with Japanese characters (with english in brackets to the side).
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bump!
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what a dumb plane
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bump
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
I've been flying this plane exclusively this tour just to check it out and it's a sweet plane. I don't know much about it, but it seems like a reasonable request. I have a question about the Ho-5 cannons.
Raubvogel,
Sorry I missed your questions...
Originally posted by Raubvogel
Are they the Browning copies that were made larger?
Yes, they are derived from the Browning machine guns. If you refer to my thread,
Info on the Ki-61 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=47692) The Ho-5, like the Ho-103 (Type 1 12.7mm fixed mount machine guns), was a 20mm cannon derived from the American Browning design.
and website, The WWII Fighter Gun Debate (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/fgun.html) The Army used the 20mm Ho-5, that was derived from the Browning .50, and was probably the best Japanese fighter gun of the war. It replaced the older Type 97, which had been derived from an anti-tank gun. The Ho-5 was lighter than the older gun, but the cartridge case was reduced from 125mm to 94mm, and muzzle velocity suffered accordingly.
Originally posted by Raubvogel
And do you have any ballistic info on them??
The Ho-5 shoots at 850 rounds per minute with a muzzle velocity of 750 m/s according to The WWII Fighter Gun Debate (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/gustin_military/fgun.html). I think Mr. Tony Williams will be a better source on this topic.
Originally posted by Raubvogel
Was the engine a copy built DB601 or 603?
As stated in the Kawasaki Ki-61 Hien (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ki-61.html#RTFToC1), the engine used for the Hien is the Ha-40, a licensed version of the DB601A. Most Japanese fighter aircraft had been powered by air-cooled radial engines. However, the German Daimler-Benz DB 601A liquid-cooled, inverted-vee engine (which powered the Bf 109E) had attracted considerable interest in Japan, and a license had been acquired in April 1940 by the Kawasaki Kokuki Kogyo K.K. (Kawasaki Aircraft Engineering Co Ltd) to build the German engine in Japan under the designation Ha-40. A Japanese technical team brought back a set of blueprints of the DB 601A and a few examples to serve as production patterns. The first prototype Ha-40 engine was ready in July of 1941, and the first examples began to roll off Kawasaki's Akashi engine production line in the fall of 1941.
Well, that's it! Kindly let me know if you have any other questions. I hope HTC would correct this issue soon. :)
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100!
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Damn it Mitsu! I had my eye on 100 until I need to punt this thread again... but then again... this is 101. ;)
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boot!
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Punt!
Gora HTC,koitijikan toitumeruzo!
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Hrm... this thread has been around for a long long time, but I haven't seen any replies from HTC. Does anyone know if they are intending on fixing this? Of course, I agree that they should modify the current KI-61 to match one of the actually produced variants. It is just odd that this hasn't been fixed yet. It really is synonymous with calling a "P-51B" a "P-51 Type 2", and putting it in the game with a Merlin engine. Can you imagine how many people would be going off about that :eek:
I also agree about changing the model versioning to reflect the Japanese method. Translating specific things like this can be tricky, and it seems prudent just to avoid it completely. With that being said, I must point out that goofy translations occur no matter what direction you are going. Enjoy the attached image :D
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gotta luv some of those engrish :D
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:cool:
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I aint giving up yet... PUNT!!!:D
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We wantsss it! My preciousssss! :D
Please change the name of this beauty :)
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Nice pix.!
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Can you say... PUNT :D :o
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Change the name PUNT :p
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punt
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FDutchmn,
I'm willing sign a petition or whatever is, I support that Bring Hein to AH2 and we need more Japanese fighter/bomber/tanks for every area.
!!
Rafe
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Sugoi ! :D
This is like a Japanese business meeting. It goes on and on and on and nothing ever gets decided or done! Maybe HTC doesn't want to break the wa?
HTC: Please put this on the "To Do" list. :)
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eek gadz! my old thread is revived! this is great! :D
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HIYa FD!!..Long live the thread!!!:D
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Night of the Living Thread.
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We're all gonna go to hell for raising the dead back to life :D
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Lisa: Dad, we did something very bad!
Homer: Did you wreck the car?
Bart: No.
Homer: Did you raise the dead?
Lisa: Yes.
Homer: But the car's okay?
Bart and Lisa: Uh-huh.
Homer: All right then.
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Gentlemen and Ladies too,
Thank you all for your support. Pyro has implemented the changes we asked for from AH2 Beta 37. The name has changed to Ki-61-I-Tei and the missing fuel tank was added. Skins we just have to provide them with one. Thank you once again. m(__)m
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Heck.. :D It only took 120 replies
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WTG FD!..:D