Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Lefto on May 25, 2000, 10:28:00 PM
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Anyone know the highest 5 scoring pilots from England, US, and Russia? (WW2)
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US is Richard Bong I believe.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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any chance you know the scores?
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Bong 40
Johnson 38
Kozhedub 62
If you wanted the top five they would all be Russian. Course the highest losses were Russian too.
[This message has been edited by Pongo (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Try this site: http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/aces.html (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/aces.html)
-<Meisseli>-
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If russians could shoot down all Finnish planes what they claimed then our museums should be empty... I guess same happens in other fronts too ?
Finnish pilot gets his "victory" after it was confirmated.
Staga
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NO finish claims were incorrect? hmmmm
Had to have the rusky pilots brain pan as an ashtray or no kill.
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Pongo check out that upper link...
Also we must remember that at least in Luftwaffe and Finnish Air Force your tod lasted to the bitter end...
Staga
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the three top soviet aces in WWII:
1- I.N. Kozhedub (62 kills,all personal)
2- G.A. Rechkalov (61 kills,56 personal, 5 group kills)
3- A.I. Pokrishkin (59kills, 53 personal, 5 group kills)
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There was a Brit/Commonwealth pilot who flew Hurris in North Africa and Med. that had 52 kills. Don't remember his name off of hand.
Sisu
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Many german pilots(esp successful ones) were taken away from the front for varios reasons. Your implication that the russian kill counting was suspect but that the finish (or any other nations) was not is silly to me. Bitter end has nothing to do with it.
The Fins typically fought over there own territory so I suppose that counting kills would be somewhat more accurate, but anything done by humans is subject to error or exageration. The fins are not immune to this.
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Pongo...
[cut]
"a recent study in Russian archives has revealed that Finnish fighters downed 1855 Russian planes" during the wars (winter+continuation). Finnish claims at the same time were 1807" [/cut]
Kinda strange isn't it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
And little more off topic for lighten this (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Jorma Sarvanto made a world's record on 6 Jan. 1940 when he shot down 6 DB-3 bombers in just 4 minutes
AND BTW: HE DIDN'T FLY CANNON HAWG !! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Sarvanto's Fokker D.XXI was armed with four 7,7mm Browning mg's
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/xxi.jpg)
btw: here's "our" G-2 with FAF's DC-2
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/mt222.jpg)
Nice links also..
http://www.cableregina.com/users/magnusfamily/airaces1.htm (http://www.cableregina.com/users/magnusfamily/airaces1.htm)
http://www.hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/refs/refs.html#faf (http://www.hkkk.fi/~yrjola/war/refs/refs.html#faf)
hmm... where's my lager ?
Oh btw: Books and net are full of data... All you had to do is pull it out under all that garbage... Or let others do it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-26-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-26-2000).]
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How many of those Ruskie planes were vintage WW1 I?.Not until BOB did the AXIS come up against equal AC and pilots oh and we know how that story ended.Aside from the 5-1 odds.
I luv viewing those clips of 109's bouncing biplanes musta been tuff.
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-26-2000).]
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OOPS double post
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]
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First Hartmann's kill was in 1943.Was an Il-2.
A lot of biplanes up by then, heh,torque?.
Same applies to Nowotny. some 90% his kills were in Fw190, and few of them in opening stages of the eastern campaign.
Torque...what about the "Pacific Aces"? thrown into combat against a unexperienced, worse equipped enemy. Are they pure crap because their enemies werent that good?.No, they were nice pilots and had a lot of merit!!. Same with eastern front...with the difference that russian pilots had way better aircraft than Japanese had. And better pilots in late war, too.
None of the "Pacific Aces" tallied even 40kills. Take a look and Hartmann's figures. Take a look into Steinhoff, Kuprinski, Nowotny, Galland, Bar, Rall,Moelders, Marseille (oh yes he killed 17 inutile warhawks and hurricanes in one day...but they were worse planes than the 109F, eh! so is not good!)
And What about hans-Urich Rudel?...he killed by himself...
ONE BATTLESHIP!!! (30000 tons)
more than 500 Russian tanks (I bet all of them outdated isnt it?)
more than 2000 russian vehicles
and in late 44 and 45 he flew without a leg...may I follow? he was a F·"$"% nazi pig...but he was a nightmare for Red Army.
Show me any pilot that match any of them, come on do it...or at least try to do it.
And dont tell me about Tour Of duties. German hadnt, true. THey served untill the end. But show me an allied pilot who has the same tally record in a short time as,for example, Galland, Marseille, Moelders...
German fighter aces were the best around the world, IMHO. So dont insult they memory, please.
[edit]as a side note I'll answer to your question. nearly 75% of russian planes were I-15 (or variants) and I-16. More I-16 than I-15. They were 1937-39 products. No WWI VINTAGE!. The rest were MiG-3, LaGG-3 and in a bit of more time later Yak-1...that sounds quite modern for 1941.
[edit] and I wont start telling about Channel fights in 1941-43 because there wasnt there the 5-1 odds you mean, and we all know, TOO, how that ended...for the RAF! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (BTW the BoB was a british victory. Yep...but look at 109's numbers and K/D ratio do you want?. It may SURPRISE YOU!)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Sorry RAM, but they were in a target rich envirionment. They were very good, yes. Among the best, yes. The best? Maybe.
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa got 104 before dying in a transpost plane. Thats more than 40 kills. Saburo Sakai got 63 official kills (64 in reality, B-29 <in a Zero> on last day of the war was never official). Thats more than 40.
The Battleship that Hans-Eudel got was not 30,000 tons. It was a pre-Dreadnaught. How many tailgunners did Eudel lose? How many times was he shot down?
As Johnnie Johnson said, aliied pilots didn't see that many aircraft. They had no chance to shoot that many down. After a point, the top pilots are pretty much equal.
Sisu
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Originally posted by Karnak:
Sorry RAM, but they were in a target rich envirionment. They were very good, yes. Among the best, yes. The best? Maybe.
Targert rich environtment? yes. They were outnumbered 9-1 in 1944. I call it a TRE (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hiroyoshi Nishizawa got 104 before dying in a transpost plane. Thats more than 40 kills. Saburo Sakai got 63 official kills (64 in reality, B-29 <in a Zero> on last day of the war was never official). Thats more than 40.
Dont take me wrong (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I was talking on US aces on Pacific, not Japanese. SAburo Sakai is one of my most admired fighter pilot.
The Battleship that Hans-Eudel got was not 30,000 tons. It was a pre-Dreadnaught.
Sorry to correct you, man. Rudel sank a Gangut class Battleship. 30000 tons, twelve 12 inch guns. It was "Marat" (Ex-Petropavlosk).A full fledged battleship. He sank it in a Ju87 divebomber, when he hit the forward magazines with a 500Kg bomb. It was nearly broken in two.
How many tailgunners did Eudel lose? How many times was he shot down?
touche...he was the most shot down pilot in WWII. but compare his loss figures with his kills and harm inflicted on enemy. He was the only LW pilot awarded the Golden blades for his Knight's cross with oak leaves, blades adn brilliants. That means something (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
As Johnnie Johnson said, aliied pilots didn't see that many aircraft. They had no chance to shoot that many down. After a point, the top pilots are pretty much equal.
Sisu[/b]
I dont underestimate Allied pilots. They were skillful and wonderful sticks. Yeager, Gabreski, Johnson, Tuck...but I dont quit them any merit if they tallied say 20 kills at last days of the war, when LW was a skeleton,and a wreck.Torque did that with Eastern front LW pilots, and Early war LW pilots too. I find it VERY sad and pointless.
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Tuck an Galland got eachothers wingmen.
Galland was above with his staffel.
Tuck saw the 109s and ordered his Spits into a defensive circle.
Galland identified the lead, tuck, and dove down to get him.
Tuck saw him coming in his mirror and tightened his turn.
Galland realized that he couldn't get the leader, so he shot the leaders wingman down.
Tuck kicked back to try for a shot at the 109, but he was already away, however his wingman was still vulnerable, so he shot him down.
They found out about that after Tuck was captured in January of '42 when they talked.
Sisu
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The Marat was a pre-WW1 dreadnought, 26,000t.
From what I've read she was DAMAGED by Stukas, but survived.
RAM, what are these kill figures for the BoB? Are they taken from the 3x overclaim figures the Luftwaffe made?
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Interesting thread...a couple of quick comment's.
1) the german's had significant experience in the spanish civil war...this helped them alot in WW2 (all russian vets were killed in various purges)...many if not all of the top expertan flew in, or mentored under, Spanish war vet's. As the war progressed the quality of new pilots fell most dramatically on the german side...average life expectancy of a new pilot on eastern front in Sept 44 was 11 days.
2) German pilots had tactical advantage due to circumstance most of the time (BoB only real exception)...this allowed them to control terms of engagement till early 45 when US "roaming escort" tactics began to tell.
3) Since German tactical doctrine concentrated aircraft they traditionally enjoyed local air superiority even when outnumbered overall. The German "slash & run" tactics minimized losses due to "dog fighting" and the defensive nature of the air war maximized pilot lives...no POW's.
So...German pilots benifited from experience, training, tactics and the nature of the war. US, British, Russian...etc...learned from the germans and improved over time on all fronts.
I'd agree that the top german aces stand alone strictly based on there accomplishments, however overall the other combatant's (excluding Japanese) produced a higher overall caliber of pilot by the end of the war...as for scores, many german pilots died within weeks of being transfered to the western front..so there is an issue of overall quality on the eastern front...but the "airguard" (?) regiment's were equal to any western top line unit in pilot quality and equipment.
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My pilot can beat up your pilot.
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Geeze Ram relax.The point I was making is all though the LW pilots did have large numbers under their belts.Numbers don't tell the whole story.BOB is a perfect example,the RAF was engaging 50-100 AC against 200-300 Fighter escorts and they still managed to score more kills.The RAF beat them hands down.That was the first time a level playing field(ACs not#'s) was engaged by both and who was the victor?
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
The Marat was a pre-WW1 dreadnought, 26,000t.
I regard myself as knower of Battleships of all world. Marat was a WWI Dreadnought (Battleship) that entered service in 4/11/1914 ,named as "Petropavlosk". It was at that time a quite powerful battleship, but years ago from those from Germany and Britain.
It was commisioned as a 26.000ton battleship. After two overhauls it was rated at an operational weight of 29.620 tons. Its machinery and crew compartments were revised, boilers fitted and New mast fitted, new AAA too and modifications to the funnel.
It was a dreadnought. Not a Pre-dreadnought. It was contemporary with Warspite, Queen elizabeth, Ramillies, Royal Oak...etc. It was a BATTLESHIP (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
From what I've read she was DAMAGED by Stukas, but survived.
The hull stressed to the point of breaking in two when the magazine went kaboom.In deep waters it would have gone down just as Hood did against Bismarck, in less than 3 minutes.
It was foundered at a port so they strapped some armor to save it and make the ship lighter. Then they refloated it as a training stationary ship. Renamed Volkhov and send to strappers in 1950. It was no longer a combat unit. It was regarded as sunk, and I believe that as it was erased as an effective combat unit, it can be assigned as a kill.
RAM, what are these kill figures for the BoB? Are they taken from the 3x overclaim figures the Luftwaffe made? [/b]
Those aren't kill figures. The 5/1 odds were given by torque as the numbers of the luftwaffe versus the RAF in summer '40 in BoB (and they are wrong, LW was some 2300 planes strong and RAF some 700).
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]
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Geeze Ram those are total number not engaging numbers.The RAF never engaged in big number until the end when they had the BIG-WING formations.The begining small squadrons of RAF AC were engaging huge numbers of LW.Plenty of time 30-50 RAF AC would fly against massive formations of LW.Plus if the LW was so good how come they never invaded Britain?
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-26-2000).]
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The RAF overclaimed in the BoB as well.
Sisu
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Originally posted by Torque:
Geeze Ram those are total number not engaging numbers.The RAF never engaged in big number until the end when they had the BIG-WING formations.The begining small squadrons of RAF AC were engaging huge numbers of LW.Plenty of time 30-50 RAF AC would fly against massive formations of LW.Plus if the LW was so good how come they never invaded Britain?
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-26-2000).]
First-Because Goering stupid close-escort tactics
Second-The lack of endurance of Bf109E made impossible long escort missions, nor air superiority. That was something that RAF pilots used for they advantage.
Third- Kriegsmarine would never have been able to invade Britain. The royal navy was enough to make it impossible, as in summer 1940 germany had NO battleships or Battlecruisers ready for action (because norway invasion Kriegsmarine was in its lowest point of the war until April '45)
Fourth- There was a complete lack of planning. France fell so fast that even Wehrmatch High command was amazed. They were caught by surprise and Seelowe was never a REAL plan but a "imaginary" invasion.
Won or lost, Bob would have never been followed by an invasion. There was even a huge lack of shipping to do the disembark. There were even Rhin-fluvial barges in the OOB!!!!
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Ok one more time Geeze Ram (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Hey I'm ok!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Only answering to your posts, nothing more (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Really BoB was near won by LW...Hitler's stupid order to bomb London saved RAF...but not U.K. because Germany was never able to launch the invasion.
As I said Bf109 K/D ratio on BoB was a quite good one, more knowing its endurance problems and that they flew over enemy country. The problem was the Bf110...and German bombers...those were tactical close support planes, never Strategic Bombers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
So Seelowe would have never happened, regardless of outcome of BoB. IMHO.
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Originally posted by Karnak:
They found out about that after Tuck was captured in January of '42 when they talked.
Cc I remember reading that (Tuck was an awesome Spit pilot), and I remember too the passage relating Tuck's ditching. He had truly bad luck, with his Merlin Dying because ack when straffing (a train I recall isnt it?). He had to ,literally,insult his wingman to make him break and return to base, as he was done. Then when trying to ditch he saw a AAA battery that started to fire at him. He straffed it with the last rounds he had and ditched...
He then saved his life somehow when some German AAA people came to kill him because what he did to their battery. Dont recall what exactly happened but the germans found something funny there and started to laugh.
I call that a tricky ditch (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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<<what about the "Pacific Aces"? thrown into combat against a unexperienced, worse equipped enemy>>
This statement is only accurate in describing the late Pacific war.
When the Pacific war began Japanese pilots were among the best in the world. It took something like 5 years of rigorous training to go from cadet to active fighter pilot in the Japanese Navy/Army. Also, many of the Japanese fighter units had actual combat experience before December 7, 1941.
Meanwhile, the US Navy and Marines were not training nearly enough pilots to meet the Japanese in the air. Bomber and transport pilots had to be quickly re-trained as fighter pilots.
As far as equipment goes, the Zeke was considered better than anything in the US arsenal in most ways. The US Navy had only recently given up biplanes. And Japan had the advantage of numbers.
The late war Turkey Shoots happened because in the early war a few outnumbered Navy, Marine, and Army pilots flying mediocre planes killed most of the experienced Japanese pilots, and Japanese industry couldn't put out a world class plane in the numbers required to match America's industrial abilities. The Turkey Shoots came AFTER the butt whooping.
ra
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Agreed RA. 100%.Is my fault not to have expressed it better.
Japanese navy pilots were to be really feared until they were slaughtered in useless and tiring attacks on Guadalcanal, flying from Rabaul. After that they were done as a fighting force (with few exceptions of course).
But from mid'43 onwards Japanese pilots were green quality...and in that period was when the P38 (the plane that most aces created in Pacific T.O.),F6F and F4U (a big improvement from F4F)came into action. And the Japanese standard navy fighter was to be the A6M3 until more than 6 months after these planes came into service...a6M5 was an improvement...but not by far enough.
Before the Solomons campaign the thing was REALLY tough for American pilots. After that things were much more easy, but I never said that American late war aces on Pacific had less quality or merit than the early ones.
That was my point when I compared PTO with Eastern FRont.
Sorry I didnt explained it better before.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]
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not use on those but the altime ace is a german i believe. i i can fing the web site i saw it on i'll post it. he had a most impressive record for kills. it seemed unbeleivable...
UNC...OUT!!!
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Uncle, the "recordman" Ace of Aces fighter pilot of all times is Erich Hartmann, LW pilot on Eastern Front in WWII.
352 Kills, mostly in Eastern front, but I believe at least 2 of those kills are P51s scored in very last days of WWII, when he was flying his Me109G14.
A truly amazing number...even more if we see that his first kill was in mid '43!!!
I think that Germany has the top ranks aces in Fighter aces(Hartmann), Tank aces (I am playing blind in this one but I am pretty sure that it was a Tiger commander) and Submarine skipper aces (Otto Kretchmer with 350.000 tons of allied shipping more or less).
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-26-2000).]
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RAM, I agree with most of what you're saying, (although I still don't think the Marat actually sank), but
First-Because Goering stupid close-escort tactics
I must take issue with. Up to the point the pilots started to fly close escort, the 109s had been having a relatively easy time of it, engaging only when they had the advantage. After that point, Luftwaffe bomber losses went down, as did their losses v the RAF overall. 109 pilots may not have liked it but it was a sensible tactic.
The BoB was not a strategic bombing offensive until the last phase, which the Germans turned to because they had not been winning with their earlier tactics. The losses the Germans had been suffering up till they turned on London were too large for them to sustain. Whilst this was also the case for the RAF, British fighter production was running at 4 times the German rate, and many shot down RAF pilots were able to fly again. Switching to all out attacks on London was necesary for the Germans because they no longer had enough fighters to cover all their spread out raids in force.
The range of the 109 was not really a factor. They had sufficent combat time over England, the only thing longer range would have given them would have been the chance to attack targets deeper inland, where the odds would have been even futher against them.
Operation Sea Lion was a real plan, the Germans even went so far as to strip river barges from all over Europe to transport troops. It was to have been carried out after the LW had destroyed the RAF, so the LW would have had the task of keeping the RN out of the channel. In hindsight the plan looks stupid and would almost certainly have failed, even if the Germans had won the BoB, but at the time Hitler and co took it very seriously. They even planned the civil administration of occupied Britain.
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Top tank ace was not a tiger- it was a sherman M4A1 that fought in normandy. Poor girl had 14 confirmed german tank kills before she and her American crew were killed. The commander's name I can't remember but he learned his "method" from watching Canadian tank crews in the battles after D-Day. Canadians developed tactics of running two tanks quickly across open areas where a german tank was hiding and when the tank started tracking them a third would drive straight at it firing at the bottom of the turret. The record holder improved on it using his M4A1 instead of the smaller canadian sherman's.
But this is also subjective. There could probably have been a higher scoring german tank commander on the eastern front however I don't think enough survived to record their personal kills. I know the german units in russia had extremely high kill rates during the beginning of the war (which reversed by the end muhahaha).
BTW my info comes second hand from a book on Canadian units in normandie, can anyone provide more details?
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
I must take issue with. Up to the point the pilots started to fly close escort, the 109s had been having a relatively easy time of it, engaging only when they had the advantage. After that point, Luftwaffe bomber losses went down, as did their losses v the RAF overall. 109 pilots may not have liked it but it was a sensible tactic.
yes...maybe...but numbers arent all. Ask RAF pilots how they wanted 109s, attached to theyr bombers, or in free-jagd.
And Jagdwaffe felt they had lost the initiative from that exact moment. What can seem a wise tactic regarding numbers, was a wrong on regarding morale, IMHO.
The BoB was not a strategic bombing offensive until the last phase, which the Germans turned to because they had not been winning with their earlier tactics. The losses the Germans had been suffering up till they turned on London were too large for them to sustain. Whilst this was also the case for the RAF, British fighter production was running at 4 times the German rate, and many shot down RAF pilots were able to fly again.
Umm yes and no...German's attacks were doing real harm to RAF tactics. Theyr fields were being hammered time after time...and the pilots started to become really tired. Plane replacements were OK...but not so Pilots! RAF was being stretched to breaking point, when the target shifted from RAF to London. And ,with not some shame in them, RAF staff took london attacks as a big air breath. IF LW would've continued attacks on RAF objectives, it would have won the BoB.
And regarding Strategic targets...well main objectives were RAF fields, but Ports, convoys and factories were hit from the very start...and those are Strategic objectives.
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The range of the 109 was not really a factor. They had sufficent combat time over England, the only thing longer range would have given them would have been the chance to attack targets deeper inland, where the odds would have been even futher against them.
[/b]
disagree 100%. 109s had only 20 minutes over England...at cruise speed...many times LW bombers reached their targets alone because the escort had to break towards home. That was a REAL problem for 109s as anyways they had to do no fuel landings and ditches because they used to ran outa fuel despite their efforts.
Operation Sea Lion was a real plan, the Germans even went so far as to strip river barges from all over Europe to transport troops. It was to have been carried out after the LW had destroyed the RAF, so the LW would have had the task of keeping the RN out of the channel. In hindsight the plan looks stupid and would almost certainly have failed, even if the Germans had won the BoB, but at the time Hitler and co took it very seriously. They even planned the civil administration of occupied Britain.
It was a REAL plan...where in Hitler's mind?. yes he put a directive ordering the concentration of barges and all shipping that could be available on Dover Straits...only to be killed by RAF jabo sorties.
Wehrmatch and Kriegsmarine always thought that was a suicide plan. Luftwaffe pilots had learned enough in Dunkerke to know that it was unrealizable. Goering didnt, tho.
I still think that if BoB was to be won by germans, still seelowe would've never been launched...and if if had been launched the war would've been 2 years shorter... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by Sorrow[S=A]:
Top tank ace was not a tiger- it was a sherman M4A1 that fought in normandy. Poor girl had 14 confirmed german tank kills before she and her American crew were killed
I know at least 3 tiger crews with more than 100 tank kills in Eastern front, Sorrow...and I think there were more than those. Maybe the one -day -top score was that. but on a career, not, thats for sure
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Originally posted by Torque:
How many of those Ruskie planes were vintage WW1 I?.
In November 1939 when "WinterWar" starts FAF had about 100 planes and part of them were already out of date. At same time Russians had over 1000 planes in Finnish front.
In February 1940 russians made over 17000 war flights to the Finland with about 1500 planes. FAF dropped about 750 Russian planes when own losses were 61 planes. Because FAF's planes could only protect Southern Finland Sweden send one flight unit to protect northern Finland.
When ContinualWar begun in summer 1941 FAF had 230 fighters and 37 bombers.
25.6.1941 Russians attacked with 300 planes to 19 cities and towns. At first day of "air war" FAF dropped 26 enemy bombers w/out own losses.
Planes in 1939 - 1940
Fokker C.X (DiveBomb.) and C.V.E liaison
Blackburn Ripon IIf ---''---
Junkers K 43f --- '' -----
Junkers F 13
Gloster Gladiator Fighter
Fokker D.XXI --''---
Bristol Blenheim Bomber
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Planes 1940 - 1945
Curtiss Hawk 75A (P-36)
Caudron Renault C.R. 714
Brewster b-239 (F2A-1 Buffalo)
Lavotshkin Lagg-3 (Captured)
Heinkel HE 115
Fokker F VIII
Polikarpov I-15 Bis, I-16, I-153 (Captured)
Hawker Hurricane I and IIA
Gloster Gauntlet
Douglas DC-2
Westland Lysander
Koolhoven F.K. 52
Fiat G.50 "Freccia"
Jaktfalken II (Only 1, Donated by Sweden)
Morane Saulnier Ms.406+410(Caudron C.714)
Morane S. 406 improved with russian engine "Monster-Morane" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Dornier Do-17 z
Junkers Ju-88a
Iljushin DB-3 (Captured)
Tupolev SB-2 (Captured)
Curtiss Warhawk P-40M (Captured?)
Messerschmitt Bf-109 G-2(48pc),G-6(111pc) and G-8(3pieces)
FAF had to use captured planes because it couldn't have planes elsewhere.
Few others too but too tired to write (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
So Torque... How about that vintage thing (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Finnish, German and American aces of WW2
http://www.jyu.fi/~mg/history/comparison.html (http://www.jyu.fi/~mg/history/comparison.html)
I need a lager NOW ! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Staga
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-26-2000).]
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The only time the RAF came under real pressure was when the bombing raids concentrated on airfields, and the bombers were closely escorted by 109s. If close escort was a mistake then why is that the only point when the LW looked capable of winning? Prior to that the RAF had been able to disrupt the raids aimed at airfields.
Raids on convoys on ports were designed purely to bring the RAF up to fight, therefore can't be considered strategic. The raids against factories were aimed at aircraft and aero-engine plants, just an extension of the counter-air campaign the BoB began as.
Still don't accept about fuel. There may have been some advantages, but there would have been disadvantages too. The LW managed to put pressure on the RAF, that pressure would have been lessend by drop tanks. LW pilots would have flown fewer, longer sorties, which would have meant fewer combats against the RAF yet tired the LW pilots as much as the shorter more intense sorties did. The RAF pilots, on the other hand, would have flown less sorties, meaning more time for recovery. It was only that intense pressure early in September that gave the LW any chance. Also, drop tanks would have meant combats deeper inside Britain, which would have reduced the German pilots chances of getting home with even minor damage. If you get engine trouble over Dover you have a good chance of getting back to France. Not if it happens over Birmingham.
AT the begining of September the RAF was losing pilots at an unsustainable rate, but so were the Germans. In fact, by mid Sept the Luftwaffe had less operational 109 pilots than the RAF had fighter pilots. The balance was still in Britains favour.
Sea Lion may have been a stupid plan, and British Army wargames of it since the war have always ended up with the German invasion being defeated in 7-10 days, but it was a real plan, and Goering assured Hitler that once air superiority was won he would keep the RN out of the channel. Hitler after all believed his equally stupid boasts throughout the war, eg. at Dunkirk, Stalingrad, and later on in the BoB when he promissed to destroy London and bring Britain to it's knees.
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Okay... One more...
Maybe Michael Wittman (k.i.a. near Caen 8.8.1944) could be the "Tank Ace".
Most of kills in eastern front.
141 tanks and 132 antitank guns
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/wittman.jpg)
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RAM, what happened was as follows:
He tried to destroy his maps and aircraft by lighting the maps on fire and stuffing the burning maps into the Spit Vb's fuel tank, but the German infantry saw that and fired a shot near him to disabuse him of that notion (which it did <I've seen photos of his fighter after the Germans hauled it off> ) so he turned around and tried to hide the 29 swastica's on the Spit's nose with his body (he thought they might be agered at the sight of that). When the Germans got up to him they were shouting at him in German and hitting him a bit. He thought they were pissed because of the quad 20mm truck he'd just destroyed and its crew which he'd killed (he was dazed from the ditching as his head had hit the reflector gunsight). They hauled him over to the truck and he was thinking they were going to lynch him. But instead he realized they were slapping him on the back, pointing at the truck and saying "Gut shot englander, gut shot". When he looked at the truck, he realized one of his 20mm rounds had gone down the barrel of one of the 20mm guns on the truck, splitting it back like a banana peel, something you only see in cartoons. They were actually congratulating him on destroying the truck and its crew.
You were right about the rest, including the train. Unfortunately, a 20mm round through the Merlin will tend to kill it. One thing to note though, is if Tuck had been fighting over his own territory as the Germans were he'd have been in the air again within 1-2 weeks and would have almost certainly gotten more kills. He also had to sit out the Battle of Britain and stabilize 257 Squadron which was cracking up. He'd been given command of it because of his prior good record and the fact that he could speak Russian, and 257 had several Polish pilots. He got his first Battle of Britain kill on September 15, by which point it was pretty much over. Funny thing is, it was ground fire that knocked hum down. No enemy aircraft ever kept him down.
Wing Commander Robert Roland Stanford Tuck, DFC with two bars, DSO with bar, 29 kills, captured in 1942, escaped in 1945. Born in 1917?, died in 1987.
Sisu
[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 05-26-2000).]
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I remember watching a DOC about the Easternfront. There was a gun camera clip of a B 109 bouncing a few biplanes. The commentary was how the LW had a major advantage in air superiority,technically and in numbers. Furthermore said was the fact that LW pilots were very successful in acquiring may kill sorties against such inferior ACs. I wasn’t too aware of the politics of the eastern front. In August 1939 Germany and the Soviet Union signed a non-aggression pact. In a secret additional protocol to this agreement the Baltic states were annexed to the Molotov - Ribbentrop pact allowing the Soviet Union to seize them upon the German invasion of Poland. One of those countries was Finland.Heh guess the Finns were the good guys for awhile. Stalin was more of a menace to his own people than Hitler was. After the war effort that ended at Finland's defensive victory the Soviet military command, weakened by Stalin's purge, came under severe criticism. For instance the air force operations were judged as failures. In spite of their thirty times higher numbers, the 44,000 bomber sorties of the Soviet Air Force could not paralyze the Finnish warfare capability or collapse its economy. The war ordeal only strengthened the people's morale.
Hence the Russian Airforce had so been purge where the pilot base skill level was very low.Those returning pilots from the Spanish civil were also arrested and usually imprisoned, Stalin was a funny bloke. That said Staga you ready for what I’ve found ok here is just a small bit.
(http://members.home.net/ereid/i15andreevprev.jpg) Polikarpov I-15 (http://members.home.net/ereid/falco_37.jpg) Belgian Fiat CR.42.
There was lots more but I hate long posts.
Five Fiat CR.42s took off from Brustem at 06:05 to provide cover for the airfield. The first patrol (Lieutenant Charles Goffin and Sergent Delannay) tangled with some Bfl09s east of Waremme. Delannay's aircraft was shot down. He baled out and as he descended was mortally wounded by a shot from the ground. Goffin had better luck and damaged a Bf109, which left the fray trailing a long plume of smoke. This plane appears to have been a Bf109E flown by Leutnant Erwin Dutel from 2/JG1, whose aircraft was hit and he was forced to bale out over Aix-la-Chapelle (Aachen). Dutel had been a part of nineteen Bfl09s escorting forty Ju52s in the St Trond/Tongres. The German fighter pilots repored that they encountered five "Gladiators" of which one was shot down.
During the Winter War Avdeyev served in the Leningrad area in the 153 IAP as a Lieutenant and was later promoted to Starshiy Leitenant and Flight commander.
After the German attack on the Soviet Union, the 153 IAP defended Leningrad City using I-153 Tchaika biplanes.
One day his flight attacked a formation of Ju88s protected by Bf109s (approx. 20 aircraft altogether). He shot down one of the bombers in flames but his aircraft was damaged by return fire and caught fire. He continued however to attack and shot down another bomber before he bailed out and parachuted to safety.
Jean de Callatay served with the 3/II/2 Aé equipped with Fiat CR.42 at the time of the German invasion of Belgium in May 1940.
In the early morning on 10 May the IIème Group was ordered to evacuated from Nivelles to Landing Field No 22 at Brustem.
When the last aircraft were preparing to land, the flight led by Capitaine Callatay spotted a formation of Ju52/3ms over Tongres. The transports were from 17/KGzbV5 tasked with dropping dummy parachutists. The three CR.42s took on the Ju52s and Callatay scored hits on a Ju52 near Alken at 05.30. This aircraft crash-landed at Maastricht. The Belgian pilot were immediately pounced on by escorting Bf109s from I/JG1 and the three Belgian pilots broke off the engagement and headed back to Nivelles thinking that the field at Brustem had been put out of action by German bombers.
Callatay was later credited with a destroyed Ju52/3m.
On 14 May he claimed a Bf109E of 8/JG3 over Fleurus at around 13.00.
Callatay ended the war with two biplane victories.
Here is a list of the Russian biplane pilots
Alexei Khlobystov - 1 biplane victory / 7 total
Nikolai Lavitskii - at least 1 biplane victory / 24 total
Mikhail Mudrov - 1 biplane victory / 30 total
Alexandr Silantyev - 1 biplane victory / 8 total
Ivan Grachev - 1 shared biplane victory / 18 total
Colonel Fedor Arkhipenko, 129 GvIAP, 30 and 14 shared victories.
Colonel Andrey Baklan, 32 GvIAP, 22 and 23 shared victories.
Colonel Ivan Baluk, 54 GvIAP, 25 and 5 shared victories.
Major Vladimir Chensky, 116 GvIAP, 16 victories (biplane victories claimed while flying I-15!).
Lieutenant Colonel Nikolay Delegey, 508 IAP, 15 and 3 shared victories.
Major Nikolay Dmitriev, 5 GvIAP, 15 victories.
Lieutenant Konstantin Kiranov, 875 IAP, 16 victories (biplane victories claimed while flying I-15!).
Captain Sergey Kiselev, 162 IAP, 16 victories (biplane victories claimed while flying I-15!).
Colonel Peter Kolomin, 162 IAP, 16 and 7 shared victories (biplane victories claimed while flying I-15!).
Lieutenant Pavel Lovchikov, 271 IAP, 15 (4 of them in the Winter War) victories.
Colonel Vasiliy Matzievich, 26 GvIAP, 16 and 6 shared victories.
General Sergey Mironov, 153 IAP, 18 (2 of them in the Winter War) victories.
Colonel Aleksey Murashev, 3 GvIAP, 22 victories.
Captain Viktor Orlov, 113 GvIAP, 16 and 6 shared victories.
Captain Dmitriy Oskalenko, 26 IAP/PVO, 15 victories (KIA in combat with JG 54 on 26 September 1942).
Major Ivan Pishkan, 91 IAP, 16 and 35 shared victories.
Colonel Vladimir Snesarev, 11 GvIAP/SF, 16 and 8 victories shared victories (biplane victories claimed while flying I-15!).
Additional pilots with biplane victories:
S. Ya. Zchukovskiy - 4 biplane victories / 4 total
Aleksey Artamov - 3 biplane victories / 3 total
Mikhail Maksimov - 3 biplane victories / 3 total
V. Makutin - 3 biplane victories / 3 total
Peter Samokhin - 3 biplane victories / 3 total
B. N. Surin - 3 biplane victories / 3 total
A. A. Artemyev - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
L. G. Butelin - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
I. I. Drozdov - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
Leonid Ivanov - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
P. A. Kuzmin - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
M. F. Savtchenko - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
Zavgorodniy - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
K. Zcherdev - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
Pavel Borisov - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
Nikifor Ignatyev - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
Alexandr Korobitzin - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
A. I. Pachin - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
Lavrentiy Borisov - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Nikolai Cherkasov - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Alexandr Evstigneev - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Filimonov - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Shota Gogmachadze - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Leonid Khomutov - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Vasiliy Kuroedov - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
Dmitry Semenikhin - 1 shared biplane victory / 1 shared total
A number of other Belgian pilots scored biplane kills during the German invasion in May 1940.
Jean de Callatay - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
Charles Goffin - 2 biplane victories / 2 total
Etienne Dufossez - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
Werner de Mérode - 1 biplane victory / 1 total
Sources:
Christer Bergström's forthcoming book on the air war on the East front, 'Black Cross Red Star; German and Russian Fighter Pilots in Combat'
That's a helluva of alot of sorties wouldn't you say,not to mention the kills scored against 109's pretty impressive.
Facts are facts and the German lost BOB,the team with the more skillfull players won end of story.Make all the excuses you want RAM.
Frankly I don't know how anyone can idolize any persons connected to the Nazi regime. These feelings come from losing relatives in the fight against the Nazis to preserve WORLD democracy.They gave up their tomorrows Ram so you are able to post here today,instead of being in some Nazi interment camp somewhere pondering your future. Then again that depends on what country your are from.
Man I'm tired
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Facts are facts and the German lost BOB,the team with the more skillfull players won end of story.Make all the excuses you want RAM.
The German team played with inadequate players and continuous tactical disadvantage. Start a soccer match between F.C. Barcelona and a second division soccer team with a 0-5 score favoring the second. Who will win?...nothing to do with the "best skilled" but with the "best advantage". Radar, english channel and inadecuate german planes gave that advantage to british.
And they still RAF was on the edge of losing the battle.
Frankly I don't know how anyone can idolize any persons connected to the Nazi regime. These feelings come from losing relatives in the fight against the Nazis to preserve WORLD democracy.They gave up their tomorrows Ram so you are able to post here today,instead of being in some Nazi interment camp somewhere pondering your future. Then again that depends on what country your are from
Spanish, with one Grandparent "dissapeared" bacause "political disidence"with Franco's fascist regime when my mother and uncles were only tiny little kids and my grandma was 23 year old. And that in a country burnt after a civil war.
dont try that way torque, I exploded in flames once and I dont want to do it again.
Many LW flyiers were deeply anti-nazi.
Many LW flyiers (Rudel between them) were convinced nazi party members.
But hey were skillful and I admire that skill. If some of them were nazi pigs I dont like that, but I still admire their acts.
BTW I DO admire allied pilots too. But it happens that the one fighting agaisnt the odds,knowing there was only defeat at the end were German ones. And they kept on dying defending their country. Not the diddlying nazi party.
I admire that kind of bravery-and so I admire that kind of pilots.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Originally posted by Torque:
Frankly I don't know how anyone can idolize any persons connected to the Nazi regime. These feelings come from losing relatives in the fight against the Nazis to preserve WORLD democracy.They gave up their tomorrows Ram so you are able to post here today,instead of being in some Nazi interment camp somewhere pondering your future. Then again that depends on what country your are from.
Same here Torque... Just change that Nazi-word to Commie...
I can't understand people who "Idolize" russians in ww2... After all they attacked Finland (David and Goljat huh?)
My grand parents live'd in Viipuri in Karelian isthmus in their own piece of land.
Also some of my relatives are still there...
6 feet under.
Only true reason why Finland joined with Germany was because other western countries didn't send help or warfare(but Sweden). At that time Germany was only country who could sell panzers, food and other "goodies".
I know in States and britannia there were some general money-rising campaigns for Finland and thank G for it... Better something than nothing.
I'm so f%&&¤ing happy I can live in a free country what those Commies couldn't get ever occupied. They could only rape our country economical but thats another story.
(http://www.kolumbus.fi/staga/aces/flag.gif)
Staga
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Sorry Lefto we "Hi-Jacked" your topic (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Staga
(I feel sorry because most of "Red Army" soldiers didn't ever know why they attacked Finland.
Specially sorry for those 23000 men who died in "Raatteen tie" near Suomussalmi. Those divisions came from Ukraine and in "good 'ole CCCP" not even their museums "remember" to mention those men...)
Some pics from "road to Raate"
http://www.lukio.palkane.fi/raate/raate.html (http://www.lukio.palkane.fi/raate/raate.html)
If you are interested about "Winter War" check this link.
http://www.winterwar.com/Mainpage.htm (http://www.winterwar.com/Mainpage.htm)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Hehh..
Time to have my trip to Estonia...
You know that country which Soviet union occupied 17.June 1940 and which get back its freedom in August 1991 ?
Of course russians send lots of Estonian people to Siber to work in salt mines...
so there were countries which fight for their own freedom... Some of them succeeded, some not. Estonian Army had only about 15000 men and russians send over 25000 to invade... wtg...
That might be one reason I hate "GangBangers" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
You can see I'm very patriotic but I'm not a Nazi so if it come to your mind forget it just now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Staga (edited 05-27-2000).]
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I agree totally with you Staga on the Russian issue. The Easternfront did get twisted in a weird way and the more I read about the FINs (thz for showing me this) I was very impressed. History shows Stalin was more of a world tyrant than Hitler was. Anyone that opposed repression in my heart is a hero. Soviet Union was kicked out of League of Nations. The choice was the lesser of two evils. Stage I must admit things would have been very interesting if the Allies did support Finland<S>. Boggles the mind how some Russians still feel Stalin was a savior when his purges of their Force certainly cause major defeats.
"Many LW flyers were deeply anti-nazi.
Many LW flyers (Rudel between them) were convinced nazi party members.
But hey were skillful and I admire that skill. If some of them were nazi pigs I don’t like that, but I still admire their acts"
Ram that denial clause you apply to the LW pilots is very weak. I really don’t care about their personally opinions. They participated in the Nazi regime activities, they took orders from the Nazi party hence they are Nazi. Your lame excuse for them insults the intelligence of the free world. I don’t care if they were fighter pilots escorting bombers to Denmark to terrorize and kill civilians, or sowing buttons on SS uniform in Germany.
"The German team played with inadequate players and continuous tactical disadvantage. Start a soccer match between F.C. Barcelona and a second division soccer team with a 0-5 score favoring the second. Who will win?...nothing to do with the "best skilled" but with the "best advantage". Radar, English Channel and inadequate German planes gave that advantage to British.
And they still RAF was on the edge of losing the battle.”
RAM, interesting to see how this analogy would apply to the attacks on Denmark, Norway, Greece and Belgium.
Lets not also forget that Germany had been planning WAR aggression for many years. The Allies were scrambling to catch-up. Compare flight time hours for pilots of both sides of the BOB. This compounded with the numbers superiority puts your German tactical disadvantage to rest.
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-27-2000).]
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Wow...
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Torque:
Ram that denial clause you apply to the LW pilots is very weak. I really don’t care about their personally opinions. They participated in the Nazi regime activities, they took orders from the Nazi party hence they are Nazi. Your lame excuse for them insults the intelligence of the free world. I don’t care if they were fighter pilots escorting bombers to Denmark to terrorize and kill civilians, or sowing buttons on SS uniform in Germany.
Of course if in your country somehow a Nazi party raises to the power and start a war, and call you to files, you'll surely say "no" and let you be shot because insubordination.I am quite sure you would, eh?. And you wouldn't follow an order from your superiors because the high command was nazi. YEs pretty sure you wouldn't.
And you are telling me that Allied pilots were assasins and SOBs because they escorted bomber missions to Japan...missions that consisted on dropping thousands of tons over civilians...or what about Dresden mission pilots?...they were ALL ASSESINS!! isnt it? both bombers and their escorts. Of course. Thats why Harris and LeMay were included in
Nurenberg trials and judged for "crimes against the humanity" huh?...or did they were considered as national heros?...ummm maybe i need my memory pills here!!
You say I am insulting people and world's intelligence! Then What are you doing?! EH? tell me, were allied crews of bombers over Japan and Germany ASSASINS!? WAR CRIMINALS!? they followed terror bombing orders. Should they have REFUSED to follow the orders? REALLY?.
NO THEY WERENT. Harris and LEmay were criminals, yes, but the ones who followed the orders werent. Escorting crews on Dresden adn HAmburg bombing werent assasins, too. And LW pilots werent, for the same reasons. Nor soviet ones, neither.
It is incredible how has war developed. 5 centuries ago if a Feudal Boss made war to another, raped his women, burnt his fields and killed his servers, but let the Feudal enemy boss alive, without eyes and tongue, he was seen as an example of clemency.
Once century ago British troops beaten a hole country because his emperor didnt want British to drug his citizens (CHina opium war). That was seen as an "war of example".
In World War two, at the start, Blenheim bombers didnt dare to drop their bombs over the pocked battleships anchored there because they feared to kill civilians. three years later they were dropping hell over Hamburg three days and nights in a row.
In 1944 and 45 thousands of American B29s destroyed 95% tokyo with low level bombings because a General decided that precision bombing (his job) was too difficult because jet stream. So he killed millions of civilians instead.
Terror bombing and Nazi acts werent only in german side, torque. ANd you know it. You are saying that I insult people's intelligece saying I admire people's acts regardless of their ideology.
you are insulting MY intelligence and using demagogy here. I didnt expect that from you, Torque I thought you were an intelligent and decent guy.
"The German team played with inadequate players and continuous tactical disadvantage. Start a soccer match between F.C. Barcelona and a second division soccer team with a 0-5 score favoring the second. Who will win?...nothing to do with the "best skilled" but with the "best advantage". Radar, English Channel and inadequate German planes gave that advantage to British.
And they still RAF was on the edge of losing the battle.”
RAM, interesting to see how this analogy would apply to the attacks on Denmark, Norway, Greece and Belgium.
[/b]
Attacks on Denmark Greece and Belgium endired less than one month of the ENTIRE war.And over Denmark there weren't even air battles AT ALL! Norway had heavy RAF support, and was a difficult task for Germany. Tell me how many kills got hartmann over Greece?.And MOelders? NOwotny? Galland? Bär? Rall? tell me torque. NONE of them scored in those campaigns. (I consider BElgium as France campaign)
Lets not also forget that Germany had been planning WAR aggression for many years. The Allies were scrambling to catch-up. Compare flight time hours for pilots of both sides of the BOB. This compounded with the numbers superiority puts your German tactical disadvantage to rest.
yes they were preparing for war for years. Hitler was. But his country was regarded by his advisors that wouldnt be ready until 1944 to a war against France. That answers all to your states avobe.
And avobe "my" German tactical disadvantage at rest, is not a rest, is my POINT!. Since the start I said that LW had better pilots over Britain than RAF had. Because experience, because training because ANYTHING. at that moment they were best pilots than RAF's PERIOD!
So you give me the reason.
"Never in the field of human conflict was so much owed by so many to so few."
That was the only intelligent and non insulting statement in your post. ANd that says all about it.
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What if's are pointless as in real life you will find that every moment the smallest elementary particle makes a descision and as such the universe splits - this happens to every particle as such we have an almost infinite (but not) number of different universes - this is the multiverse theory.
Why is it relevant? well the LW obviously made tactical errors during the BoB. Stating that if the LW made no tactical errors they would have won the BoB which is frankly ludicrous idea. The fact is the LW met for the first time a well trained enemy with equal aircraft capabilities and lost for host of reasons despite their numerical superiority if you take away these reasons it is easy to say well then they would have won but as you take away the reasons the LW didn't win you completley change the enviroment of the engagement and as such you have a completley different set of reasons why the LW lost or won.
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Of course if in your country somehow a Nazi party raises to the power and start a war, and call you to files, you'll surely say "no" and let you be shot because insubordination.I am quite sure you would, eh?. And you wouldn't follow an order from your superiors because the high command was nazi. YEs pretty sure you wouldn't.
Not sure if I read you right on this but
Who would stay in such a country or support such a political platform for that type of occurrence to arise. That’s a very big and long”somehow” Doesn’t happen overnight.
And you are telling me that Allied pilots were assasins and SOBs because they escorted bomber missions to Japan...missions that consisted on dropping thousands of tons over civilians...or what about Dresden mission pilots?...they were ALL ASSESINS!! isnt it? both bombers and their escorts. Of course. Thats why Harris and LeMay were included in
Nurenberg trials and judged for "crimes against the humanity" huh?...or did they were considered as national heros?...ummm maybe i need my memory pills here!!
You need to remember Ram who started the war.
It was the only way and weapon with which the Allies could defeat them at the time. The Germans started it, and they were only reaping what they had sown.
How can one compare the Allied bombing campaign to the German? Germany was bombing civilians to pursue world domination and enslavement. The Allies bombed to shorten War and to save countless numbers of lives. The citizens of the allied countries didn’t appreciate sending their children to die on foreign soil. Bombing Japan and German civilians would end the War sooner and stop a lot of unnecessary death and destruction. The allies just did a better job, having being taught by the Germans in 39
In 1944 and 45 thousands of American B29s destroyed 95% tokyo with low level bombings because a General decided that precision bombing (his job) was too difficult because jet stream. So he killed millions of civilians instead.
Americans suffered heavily in the Pacific-Island Theatre in 45. Bombing to save American GIs on the ground. Japan could have surrendered at any point. American loses were projected to be in the 100 000s if they invaded Japan. The reason the Japanese suffered was not the Allies fault. They just wanted to get the War over quickly and with minimal lose of life.
You are saying that I insult people's intelligece saying I admire people's acts regardless of their ideology.
you are insulting MY intelligence and using demagogy
No it was the “I didn’t like the party but I went for the ride anyhow” flavor. I said they were all Nazi regardless. The demagogy you refer to is history.
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 05-27-2000).]
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I find incredible that, after seen many times that History is the best teacher, some of us still refuse to learn from it...or simply ignored it.
Originally posted by Torque:
Not sure if I read you right on this but
Who would stay in such a country or support such a political platform for that type of occurrence to arise. That’s a very big and long”somehow” Doesn’t happen overnight.
Who would stay?. You. Me. Everybody. Or are austrians letting everything and going from their country because an ex-SS is now in the power????. Would you sell everything and go to another country where you know noone and it is a new life for you?(and see if inmigration lets you go in it)?. I mighty doubt it.
And about the "big and long somehow. dont happen overnight"...well I guess that in 1928 when in REichstag Nazi party was a 5% that was a long somehow, too.
And when Spanish Nationalists started the 1936 rebellion they never thought that Franco would put a 35 year fascist dictatorship...
And what about Austria? 6 months ago WHO would've told that Hayder, an Ex-SS would raise to power?...and THAT HAPPENED OVERNIGHT!
You feel too comfortable, Torque. These kind of things happens by surprise because NOONE thinks they are possible. And they are. May God protect us, but thery are PROBABLE. Maybe not in your country but yes in other's
You need to remember Ram who started the war.
It was the only way and weapon with which the Allies could defeat them at the time. The Germans started it, and they were only reaping what they had sown.
How can one compare the Allied bombing campaign to the German? Germany was bombing civilians to pursue world domination and enslavement. The Allies bombed to shorten War and to save countless numbers of lives. The citizens of the allied countries didn’t appreciate sending their children to die on foreign soil. Bombing Japan and German civilians would end the War sooner and stop a lot of unnecessary death and destruction. The allies just did a better job, having being taught by the Germans in 39
Heh...yes I know that argument and excuse me, from my point of view is pure S$$t. So if your nighbour comes with a shotgun and fires to your wife and kills her you get a shotgun and move to your neighbour's house and shot her wife?...that is the argument hiding in your answer "they did it before so we could do it too". Sorry Torque the world doesnt work that way. If american pilots made terror bombing they werent more innocent than the German pilots that did it before. And the High COmmand that ordered those bombings were EXACTLY same guilty than the other's one. You say that American people suffered bad in 1945. Sure. That is a war, Torque, is suffering. But if you say that german pilots were assassins and war criminals because they followed terror bombings orders in first war year, then I say that american pilots bombing Japan in 1944 and 45 were exactly same guilts (IMHO none of both were. High commands were,not pilots). There is no redemption is "they did it first". So dont hide behind that argument, is worth nothing.
No it was the “I didn’t like the party but I went for the ride anyhow” flavor. I said they were all Nazi regardless. The demagogy you refer to is history.
Some were nazi. A lot weren't. YOu dont have to think as your government to take the weapons and figth for your country. Tell me Torque ,in Gulf War EVERY and ALL of US soldiers were REpublicans?. because Bush was republican and sent them there. Were republicans because they follow orders of a republican president?. No.
Same with Germans. German Army had still a lot of influence from Prussian army. Prussian army was and iron-one. it impulsed obbey and following orders over anything, torque. And German generals were raged against hitler. And they still obeyed them because their career and militar oath told it clearly "to obey superior's orders". That was an honour oath, and germans took it until death. Many disagreed with Hitler's orders and political views. Still they obeyed. They were officers and they HAD to do it.
Still in 1944 there was a BIG plot against Hitler. I am sure I am not wrong if I say that 80% German high officers knew about it. and some 40% supported it, giving active support to the plot. Only Nazi-convinced officers and SS officers were let apart. 80% torque. 80% non-nazi officers. And they payed a high tribute.
Still that wasnt my previous point. If a Nazi pig like Rudel killed a battleship, two cruisers ,several destroyers, 500 tanks. 2000 vehicles and countless enemy's lives, I have to admire that kind of skill, regardless of his ideology. He was skillful and I admire the Skill not the man.
If you dont see the difference is not my problem. Still, I want you to understand it.
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-28-2000).]
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Sigh how did this topic go from a quizpop question, to which country had the best pilots, to a political debate about the rights and wrongs of WW2?
How can you compare pilots, aces? You just can't. I admire alot of famous pilots and it doesn't matter if they are/were German, British, American, Japanese, Italian, Russian, Finnish, etc, etc. Even if you disconsider different tactical methods, places of flying, length of TOD's or lack of, different planes, personal kill saldo,etc you just can't pit one ace against another and say well this one is the best. They were all different people with a certain mix of talent, coolness of character and maybe above all luck.
Then you guys start throwing in little pieces of 'historic fact' that tends to support your own personal opinion and think that this will convince the other guy of your views. Of course not cause the other guy just throws in his own little fact, etc, etc. The BOB just doesn't tell anything bout which ace was better. Even tho it was an airbattle, and it was the 'finest hour' tactical and strategic elements were so much more important that it's just plain stupid to prove your case on this battle.
Then it all turns into something political.
Ram says that 80% of the LW pilots weren't nazi's. That's stupid. People got caught up in the war and adjusted. If Germany had won I don't think Galland would be the notorious anti-nazi, good buddy of allied aces we now know. Hell had Germany won I would have spoken German and if not a nazi would have shud up and adjusted cause if I did not I would have been send to work as forced laborer or maybe even in the camps. (talk about a nightmare).
Then you 2 go on bout warcrimes and little boy. Torque talks about the A-bomb saving lives. Of course it did but that's not the whole story (little fact to prove torque's case). Just some little bits of info (that btw don't prove a thing)1) Truman wasn't elected into office as president. 2) Truman knew about Sovjet intentions in the far east (just look at what happened in E-Europe). If you realy want to prove a case do some research, have fun the next 10 years (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Realy guys you are not getting anywhere. Ram you still 'bite' to soon... unhook it bro (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Torque you sometimes have the effect of a fox in the chickencoop... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
You guys both have different backgrounds and opinions... that's the way it should be... just leave it at that.
'Preachermode' out.
Bee
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Originally posted by JENG:
Ram says that 80% of the LW pilots weren't nazi's. That's stupid. People got caught up in the war and adjusted. If Germany had won I don't think Galland would be the notorious anti-nazi, good buddy of allied aces we now know. Hell had Germany won I would have spoken German and if not a nazi would have shud up and adjusted cause if I did not I would have been send to work as forced laborer or maybe even in the camps. (talk about a nightmare).
No, Bee. I say 80% of Wehrmatch High Officers in 1944 knew about the plot against Hitler, and 40% supported it actively. The other 40% remained silent because, although they agreed that Hitler was leading Germany to destruction, some didnt want to be part of a confabulation to kill a superior, some didnt dare to try to kill hitler...but they still remained silent. The other 40% payed a high tribute because the plot.
I doubt any nazi would have supported, or hidden the plot.
Then you 2 go on bout warcrimes and little boy. Torque talks about the A-bomb saving lives.
I dont know if he talks about tha A-bomb...but I dont. During 1944-45 several Japanese cities were erased from the surface of earth, with comventional bombings, at a stage when even the philippines werent retaken tokyo was 60% destroyed by incendiary bombs.
THe reason to bomb civilians in their cities wasnt to save American army people until after Owinawa had happened. IT was that american USAAF had to bomb Japanese factories like they did in Germany...but B29s couldnt bomb from high altitude because the Jet stream made the bombing unaccurate.
So the "hero" Curtiss LeMay, did the same choice as did Harris in Europe. "I cant do my job and do successful raids over the enemy war machine. SO I'LL KILL THEIR CIVILIAN'S INSTEAD".
"SIR" Richard Harris was a monster that menaced with resignation when his superiors wanted to shift from Zone bombing to precision Bombing. British HC stepped backwards and Harris remained in command of Bomber command until the end of war. He was seen as an hero, when he was responsible of the death of hundreds of thousands, millions of people.
"MR" Curtiss E. LeMay was the chief of the US bomber force in the Pacific. When he saw that the efforts to do precision bombing were too big, he realiced he couldnt to his job well...SO he shifted to cities. He was responsible of th death of millions of Japanese people. HE was seen as an hero and he commanded the SAC after the war.
"MR" Douglas McArthut, in Korean war, when he was in a big hurry,asked permission to launch an A-bomb over North Korea because he didnt dare to do his job and lose the war (and the prestige that he was putting him on the road of the White House). Gratefully, UN and USA denied him the permission and dismissed him AT ONCE.
Etc etc etc...as you see Nazis were monsters...but "some" other people...what was?.
I dont like to be given the answer "they did it first". As I said if someone grabs a shotgun and kills your wife, he goes to jail. If you take a Shotgun and kill the man's wife you go to Jail. in WWII Allied monsters didnt "go to the jail"but were regarded as heros.
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The difference, RAM, is that the allied commanders were fighting for a just cause. 20,000 people died every day in WW2, any method of shortening the war helped to save lives.
Bomber Harris may have been wrong in his belief that bombing alone could end the war, but it was what he sincerly believed. He knew that when the war was won it would bring an end to mass killing. German "heroes" knew that if they won the war the people of the occup[ied countries would go on to pay with their lives.
Hitlers policies towards Jews and others were well known. The atrocities comitted on the Eastern Front were well known to Germans.
A man like Galland, in his senior position, must have been aware of the extent of slave labour used in Germany. Did he never visit a factory on his inspection tours? Yet he carried on fighting for a completly evil cause.
RAM, if you kill a man's wife because he killed yours, that is called revenge. If you have to kill a man and his family to stop him killing thousands of others then that can be justified, if there is no other way.
For what it's worth, I think the greatest heroes the LW produced were the Ju88 nightfighter crew who contacted British intelligence and defected to Britain with their plane. They risked their lives for the right cause.
RAM, you talk about the plot on Hitler's life. That did not happen until it looked like Germany was going to lose the war. Those German officers sought to spare Germany the horrors of invasion. If they had done the same when they were busy invading Russia nad other countries, and murdering millions of people, then I would consider them non-Nazis.
Remember RAM, Fascists are not all the same. Nazi Germany was far, far worse than Franco's regime in Spain. Franco, like all dictators, persecuted people he thought were a danger to him. Hitler perrsecuted millions of people, not because they were a threat to him or Germany, but simply out of hatred. A man who supported Franco was not nesecarily evil, one who supported Hitler was.
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Fact is... history is written by the victor... If Germany had won the war guys like 'Bomber' Harris and LeMay would be convicted warcriminals... I'm just glad it was Goring standing trial in Nuremberg and not Harris... cause otherwise I would be speaking German (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
War is hell but like nashwan said... certain actions are a necessary evil... I know you think the same way.
Bee
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Nash, Bee. I can see your points...more or less. But come on, and lets get real. What did Dresden bombing for the allied victory?.
WHat did Hamburg bombing? What Berlin Night bombings?...
the answer is-nothing-.
They were done because revenge on London bombings by Luftwaffe in 1940 (and as long as I know the first"bombing" was an error). When Harris saw that if he was going to bomb by day would cause big loses then he chose to bomb by night. And Churchill aproved it.
That is called today "war criminals".
Germans started? yes. Germans did horrible things? yes. Germans were war criminals? nearly all the high command, yes.
Does that allow the other side to act as war criminals? no. No,no and no.
In Japan the same story. Shangai rapes, Death march of prisoners, Medical experiments, barbarian acts...whatever.
Still 90% tokyo was wiped out in bombings done because USAAF wasnt able to bomb the factories. What good did that for victory? none. A-bombs did, and I havent mentioned here in all the thread. That was a terrible decision that costed some 300000 lifes but saved millions. Tokyo bombings costed thousand of lifes and saved...NONE!
If today a bad guy gets a Colt 45 and fires to an old lady with all his rounds and then starts to run, if a policeman kills him he will be proccessed as 1st degree murder. In 1945 not only they werent processed, they were promoted and treated as heros.
Bee..."vae victis",yes. I am too proud that WWII ended with allied victory. But I know that many civilians died with no use. Dresden, Hamburg, Tokyo, Osaka, Berlin...that was a grave of millions of civilians, ded because revenge?. I feel sick only thinking in that excuse. War would have been won without that assasin raids. (note that I mess with zone bombings,not precision bombing. Day raids over Berlin to destroy factories were legitim. night ones to destroy lifes werent).
About the plot...there were more plots tried in 1942 and 43, when the war wasnt that clearly lost by Germany...but I dont mind that. and I dont mind that because to start the plot, Nash, those German officers (many of them heros of war) had to break something sacred for them...the honour oath of the german officer and the Prussian rules that said to follow the superior's order till the end. That plot was insubordination, something simply innaceptable for a prussian officer. And they still did it. And died for it.
And yes I am quite sure that Galland, Guderian, etc knew about slavery used in factories. But I am quite sure that they had no idea of what was going on in concentration and extermination camps, nor the jew holocaust.
but that can be said better by a German,not by a Spanish dweeb.
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RAM, RAF night bombing was done to attack the civilian population, who were engaged in war production. The bombs and shells and bullets the German forces used, the planes and tanks and submarines they fought in, were all made by the civillians who lived in those cities that were bombed. Dresden, with hindsight, was one bombing too many, but the raids on Hamburg and Berlin and all the others were justified because of the damage they did to the German war machine.
Killing people after the war was over would have been revenge. When these raids were carried out the war wasn't over. Even if many of them were carried out after victory was certain, the war was still very far from over.
The American bombing of Japan was carried out before the atomic bombs were ready for use. There was no guaranty those bombs would work properly, or at all. The supply of bombs was limited. Without the nukes, bombing would have defeated Japan anyway, so it was morally right. There is big difference between using every means at your disposal to win the war and persecuting innocent people out of pure hatred.
If today a bad guy gets a Colt 45 and fires to an old lady with all his rounds and then starts to run, if a policeman kills him he will be proccessed as 1st degree murder. In 1945 not only they werent processed, they were promoted and treated as heros
Probably not in America (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Seriously though, the point in law is if you are certain that the man is running away only to attack someone else, then you can still shoot. The Germans were not going to stop killing people, they were retreating and firing as they went. It is a big difference RAM.
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I cant disagree more...so now civilians are legitim targets for militar operations? then why in Gulf war was there som many noise when that bunker was bombed with 200 civilians inside???..
Civilian people cant be bombed because they WORK in a factory to earn the bread to feed they children!!! damnit that is an assasination!!!!!
But okay you consider civilians as legitimate war targets. Tell me what industry was there at dresden?. any? none.
Look, they bombed Dresden only to put terror on retreating forces. They came in a wave, bombed the city and then waited for hours for people go to the streets and thing all was over. Then they came again by surprise and bombed the civilians, refugees and even American war prisoners on the streets. They bombed first with fragmentation bombs and even some penetration to damage the water network and then they came with incendiary weapons tio put everything on fire.
When the second wave was over, then came the third, even worse. The city was a big burning wreck by then. They bombed it with thousands people in the streets, and the esxorting planes even dived to straffe people on the streets.
Dresden, the "German Florence", had no industry and was an unstrategical target.
Harris ordered that attack. Churchill gave the go ahead.
And they weren't criminals.Yah, they were heros.
Sorry I am really getting sick.
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An BTW, night bombing on Berlin did cause negligible damage to the factories there. Thats why American bombers had to bomb it by day in 1944.
And Hamburg was JUST like dresden. THey bombed it just to make clear they could do it. THe bombing happened during 3 days and 3 nights, in following waves. USAAF bombers tried to restrict their bombings to the railyard but as they could see nothing thru the smoke and the raging firestorm over HAmburg, they simply threw the load of bombs over the city as they couldnt aim anywhere.
Yah...heros.
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The bombing of Dresden is questionable, with hindsight. At the time it was a strategic rail junction, and the descision to bomb it was taken. If Mustangs strafed the refugees that is a different matter, but there is considerable doubt as to wether that ever happened.
Hamburg was heavily damaged. Albert Speer said at the time that another 6 raids like that and German war production would totaly collapse. As it was, Production in Hamburg 6 months later was running at 80% of pre raid levels. It took more than a year for it to recover totaly. More than 600 factories were destroyed or badly damaged. 40,000 civilians died. Most of them didn't deserve to die, but that is an average of 2 days of casualties during the war. In other words, if the raid shortened the war by 2 days there was a net saving of lives. Do you think several months lost industrial production from Hamburg, one of Germay's main cities, shortened the war by 2 days? I do.
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Quite a thread
This is interesting
From torque.
"
How many of those Ruskie planes were vintage WW1 I?.Not until BOB did the AXIS come up against equal AC and pilots oh and we know how that story ended.Aside from the 5-1 odds.
I luv viewing those clips of 109's bouncing biplanes musta been tuff.
"
This is a silly statment.Is your contention that the French airforce was made up of biplanes? Or the BEF?
Torques remedial reading will be
"Brute Force- How the allies won WWII"
By John Ellis.
Another interesting one
Humble
"2) German pilots had tactical advantage due to circumstance most of the time (BoB only real exception)...this allowed them to control terms of engagement till early 45 when US "roaming escort" tactics began to tell."
The German Armed forces went through every phase of war over most of the terrain of the european sub continent. How can pushing one way be to the tactical advantage of the Germans and being pushed the other way also be to their tactical advantage...It should be noted that in almost all cases the Germans were at a signifigant numerical inferiority even on the offence.
Ram...Buddy
"And yes I am quite sure that Galland, Guderian, etc knew about slavery used in factories. But I am quite sure that they had no idea of what was going on in concentration and extermination camps, nor the jew holocaust."
Ram I bring this up only because I feel this statment really represents a core belief in your respect for these men. You know that I too am a LW fan. And many of your statements I can sympathise with. But you have to know what kind of men we are dealing with.
Remedial reading for RAM is
"Hitlers Willing executioners- Ordinary Germans and the Holocaust"
Daniel Jonah Goldhagen
This will not totaly change your mind about the martial accomplishments of the German military. But it might give you some insight into how much of complacency with evil was needed to create the WW2 we are talking about.
As funked has pointed out to me. We all keep learning. Discussing how WE feel WW2 went down in as polite way as posible will help keep the sacrifice we all honor so alive in our minds.
<S>
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You are very right Pongo... to talk about it is to remember it.
I also read "Hitlers Willing executioners" and gave me at least some understanding about what happened. The known 'wier haben es nicht gewüst'(we didn't know) reply gets a total different meaning. What gets me tho is the fact that it indeed takes a very strong will to open your eyes. I just read a good book "Het Verzet" (The underground) that deals with the underground movement in the low countries. Those movements were very very small until 1943. After all Germany had won the war (that was what the believe was) and it takes a very strong mind to react instead of going with the flow and living your life. So I'm of the believe that most knew what was going on, civilians and soldiers.
I believe what stands out is why the war was fought. If you take WW1 it's not so clear who were the 'good' and who the 'bad'. Nationalism and imperialism reigned and both sides were out for a 'quick fight'. In WW2 it's a bit more clear, at least between the western Allies and the axis forces (if you consider the goelag and the athrocities that Stalin's regime commited it's maybe a different matter). Both sides commited crimes to a certain extend but that's war, the Western Allies didn't start a war of conquest and neither did they massacre millions of people in a clinical way.
I admire the german aces, but when I read a book about them the above thought is always in my mind. I don't believe the 'I fought for the Fatherland' comment... specialy not when we are talking about highly decorated and reveared aces. They became public figures and served the propaganda campaign probably more then the fighters they shot down. Ok ok not hanz rudel... nobody can beat sinking a battleship (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Bee
PS: reading "Citizen Soldiers" by Stephen Ambrose, if you see it pick it up, you won't regret it. (Western Campaign from 7th June 1944-7th may 1945 from a pov of the GI's and german soldiers).
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 05-29-2000).]
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--- Torque in one message: ---
Heh guess the Finns were the good guys for awhile
--- end ---
And that is not even funny.
--- Torque in another message: ---
History shows Stalin was more of a world tyrant than Hitler was.
--- end ---
Yet it seems ok to you that your country supported the soviets.
//fats