Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Swoop on March 07, 2002, 02:53:31 PM
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Every time I use flaps (1 notch only) in the P51D during a turn fight I go into a flat spin that'll take me 10,000ft to recover from. Riding the stall horn just doesnt work anymore......
Any P51 experts out there that can tell me what I'm doing wrong here.......?
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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had the same problem in the P-38 when I first started AH a couple of months ago. Found out it was because I was being a little too ham fisted with the stick while in a turn fight with flaps deployed.
(http://www.hispanicvista.com/assets/479th_shield.jpg)
Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders
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My guess would be yer being too agressive. Ease up on the stick a bit. The 51 is very predictable once you get used to it.
-Ding
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I would echo what Dingy said. Dont pull quite so hard and if you feel like a stall is coming on, nose down a bit to unload those wings and decrease the lift on your plane.
Nim
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Now if I dont use the flaps I can do this. Check my k/d in the P51. But the second I deploy flaps I spin.
Hmmmm.
Maybe I'll just avoid flaps.
:D
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Maybe your not using ENOUGH flaps when turning.... ?
xBAT
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yeah xBat is right
i used at least 3 positions of flaps in 51B,38
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Hmmm. Worth tryin...... maybe not in the MA though. :)
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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One RL aspect of this that may apply is the adverse effect of high power settings when slow. Engine slipstream and torque effects are magnified considerably when airspeed gets low...so, if you are inadvertantly stalling the plane, these effects may be causing your problem.
Will flap extension make an airplane "easier" to stall? No. But the flaps (and the associated lower airspeed) may well make the recovery more difficult.
Is AH programmed this way? Don't have a clue.
Andy
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I have not had that problem if you use the 1 notch only of flap above 250. Any less and harsh banking turns can be a bit touchy. Use a lil rudder sometimes helps, or ease up on the back pressue. Between 250-and 390 a notch of flaps can be just the ticket sometimes. Me, i dont normally use em unless im deliberatly trying to beat someone to a turn, which IMO is not always a smart move in a p51.
More than one notch normally only helps you get killed.
Also, check your elev calibration too, it maybe spiking.
Also, the 10,000 foot drop spin, is best beaten by first ensuring that you trims are neutral. Then apply normal spin recovery techniques.
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cutting your eng will also help u recover from spin just ck 6 first
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Spatula
If I use flaps, I expect to see something improve. What improvement in performance do you see when using flaps at these speeds (250-390)?
Maybe HiTech or someone could answer this also. What performance increases are to be expected from using flaps in AH?
Andy
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I am not P-51 expert by any means (actually I've flown mustang very little), but I would focus on amount of fuel. More than fumes in aux tank will take P-51 to high speed stall really easy when pulling hi Gs. Interesting story about P-51s sensitiviness to changes on center of gravity comes from 348th FG history:
"..McMillin's P-51 was out of service at the time and he borrowed Captain George Orr's (the 340th FS CO at the time) plane. Orr had installed some new radio equipment behind the seat of the fighter that increased weight by a total about 24 pounds. The difference in weight made no difference in the feel of the P-51 on takeoff or cruising, and thus made no impression on McMillin.
...McMillin went into his dive and immediatly experienced what is termed a "high-speed stall" when he tried to pull out. The P-51 was shuddering along its nose pointing almost horizontally, but still sliding ever closer to the deadly surface of the sea. McMillin trusted his reflexes developed in training and pushed the stick forward to get the nose down again."
He finally managed to get control of the fighter and survived. Book states:
"...It was amazing what a difference only 24 pounds could have on the performance of even a powerful P-51 Mustang"
Even though 348th FG is known of flying P-47s they moved to P-51Ds and flew them alot and were very experienced pilots.
I know that swoop is good stick and this fuel thing probably don't cause any problems to him, but IMO this is something to think about, food for thoughts atleast.
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Originally posted by Andy Bush
Spatula
If I use flaps, I expect to see something improve. What improvement in performance do you see when using flaps at these speeds (250-390)?
Maybe HiTech or someone could answer this also. What performance increases are to be expected from using flaps in AH?
Andy
Andy,
Well flaps give us some additional lift at the penalty of additional drag. Asking what performance increases to expect will depend completely on the plane, the altitude and speed, and what you are trying to accomplish. In my experience the flaps in AH add various ammounts of additional lift and drag when deployed, so they should work as you would expect. By that I mean a notch or two of flaps will give you a bit more lift with a bit more drag to go with it, and you may find that usefull. Max flaps will give more drag and more lift, but not necessarily in proportion to one another, so if your goal is to turn at a higher rate, the additional drag may not be worth it at some point. HT or Pyro are not going to lay out exactly what the effects of each notch of flap deployment are, they'll leave that for us to discover I'd wager.
In my view the benefits of using flaps are three fold. 1. You can use them to gain additional lift if you can live with the additional drag that goes with it. So, if you are attempting to follow a breaking bandit and you are quite fast and want maximum initial turn rate, popping a notch of flap will give you a bit more lift... so a bit more turn rate, at the penalty of slowing you faster. If your craft is travelling faster than it's best initial turning speed, you may benefit from the additional drag as well as the bit of extra lift. 2. You can use flaps to slow your plane to either force or try to prevent an overshoot situation. 3. You can use the additional lift from flaps to lower your stall speed and either maintain control at low speeds, or perform a maneuver such as a loop when withou the flaps you wouldn't have enough speed to complete it without stalling.
Flaps are a lift/drag trade-off as I'm sure you know. Exactly when that trade-off is "worth it" in a given situation is up to the player to figure out. If you are wondering how flaps will affect your plane's performance at various settings... test it. Go offline and do sustained turns over a base and time each circle at different flap settings for example.
Optimally, I'd love to see Badboy's EM diagrams for all planes in AH, including various flap settings. That's really what we need to even start to answer your question authoritatively. That's a LOT of work though, and HTC will (IMO only) leave that work to the users to do. It's part of really learning the game and the plane you fly, it's part of the challenge.
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Lephturn
Roger on that. I'm in the process of putting together another article...this one on flaps and trim use in our sims. I can really use iput from the folks that use these features, which is why I was asking Spatula for his observations.
I've tried the 51 in AH and have experimented a bit with flaps. I really don't see much yet except in the low speed range...which is where I would expect to see something anyway.
As for the speed range that was mentioned....250-390...that's well above corner velocity for this plane. Dropping flaps will have absolutely no effect on turn performance since the airplane can reach max G in a clean configuration.
This is where I think guys are getting confused. They associate flaps with increased lift and then think that means better turn performance. Maybe yes, maybe no...it all depends on the speed that we're talking about. Below corner, it is very possible that a measure of flaps will result in improved numbers.
Another factor is the max speed limit of the plane's flaps...and if this is even modeled in the sim. Generally speaking, you may consider the first "notch" of flaps to be a "maneuver flap" position, but much more flap than that and the drag penalty combined with the low max speed limit restricts their use to takeoffs and landings.
So guys, pass along your observations, if you would. Tell me what you are doing and how it affects your plane. Much appreciated!
Andy
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Andy, i mentioned that range as the range at which you are able to drop them. I hardly ever use them, i was just making the observation that you can. They do seem to help with drag a little bit. Some people swear by it, but i tend to avoid any extended turning. If you have to use em, they do make a difference from 200-300 IMO - allthough i have no empirical data to verify that claim.
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Just FYI, if you are going faster than the max speed for a given flap setting, you will not be able to deploy that flap setting. If you have deployed say 1 notch of flap and you reach the speed limit for that flap setting, the flaps will automatically retract. This is an issue you should be aware of, as in some planes like the P-38 having the flaps retract at a critical time can result in a spin.
Hmmmm. I think there needs to be an article about flaps in AH. I'll have to put that on my "to do" list. :) I'm going to think of some basic tests to do, and we'll see if I can get some help from folks on this forum so we can get all the planes tested for deploy speed limits for various flap settings.
Would flap speed limitations change with altitude? It seems likely they would.... that might complicate things a bit.
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Lephturn
>>Would flap speed limitations change with altitude?<<
Definitely. Limiting speeds are normally given in indicated airspeed (IAS). In some aircraft, the structural/aerodynamic design is such that mach number becomes an issue above a certain altitude. That mach number then becomes the limit. The operating manual would probably give the limitation as "IAS/mach #" rather than specify an altitude.
I sent you an e-mail about a flap article. My address is alfakilo@charter.net.
Andy
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Originally posted by batdog
Maybe your not using ENOUGH flaps when turning.... ?
xBAT
Well I never use more that 1 notch during a turn fite but then again, unless its with a Dora or La7/5, I will usually not pursue an extended turnfight. Pull that flap in, nose down and regain E to extend.
-Ding
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Originally posted by Andy Bush
Spatula
If I use flaps, I expect to see something improve. What improvement in performance do you see when using flaps at these speeds (250-390)?
Maybe HiTech or someone could answer this also. What performance increases are to be expected from using flaps in AH?
Andy
Personally, I dont see any. When you are this fast, its easy to pull 6Gs which is right on the blackout point. I only use flaps to get that last amount of lead I need when below 250 as I go for that killing shot.
-Ding
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I use flaps in the Jug in a similar fashion... I use them to get the lead I need to make the shot, burning the E advantage I have been carefully working during the fight.
I also use flaps if I want to slow down to try and force an overshoot, and I'll use a notch or two of flaps to get "over the top" in a vertical move that I don't quite have the speed to complete otherwise. Generally, I never put flaps out and leave them out simply because the additional drag isn't really "worth it".
Now on the odd occasion that I end up turnfighting on the deck in a sustained turning battle with my D-11 (heh.. happens more than you think) I'll often use one or two notches, but I constantly play around with them... trying to keep them retracted as much as possible to conserve E, then popping a couple of notches and burning E for a shot.
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Just to clarify something here, I'll only consider using flaps when against something that doesnt have a great turning advantage over the P51......like for example, another P51.
If I'm fast I wont be thinking about a turn fight either, I'll be ZnBing. The trouble starts when there's no other cons around so I've gotton over eager and dropped into a turn fight......which will sometimes degenerate into a slow turning fight. Now I hate diving out of slow fights cos it immediately puts ya on the defensive, so in an attempt to gain an advantage I've been deploying flaps.
And spinning.
Spin recovery isnt a huge problem, it's getting the P51 from a flat spin into a normal spin that takes the time. I'd ask for tips on that but the ultimate goal is to avoid the flat spin in the first place.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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Originally posted by Andy Bush
Lephturn
>>Would flap speed limitations change with altitude?<<
Definitely. Limiting speeds are normally given in indicated airspeed (IAS). In some aircraft, the structural/aerodynamic design is such that mach number becomes an issue above a certain altitude. That mach number then becomes the limit. The operating manual would probably give the limitation as "IAS/mach #" rather than specify an altitude.
I sent you an e-mail about a flap article. My address is alfakilo@charter.net.
Andy
In AH flap speed limitiations seem to be set to your IAS regardless of altitude. Least for the pony anyways.
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I use my flaps quite often. Probably so often that I don't even think about it anymore, just do it when needed.
Can't really speak for any kites in AH except the pony on the flaps though, as she's my primary ride.
Above 325 or so dropping that first notch is more of a hinderance than a help. You end up pushing the stick forward to keep the nose down or spinning in alot more down 'vator trim than you'd really want to have.
From 250 to 325 I like to drop that first notch as I shift from lag pursuit to lead pursuit for the shot. Dropping that notch of flaps will usually pull the nose (and guns :D ) smoothly through for the shot w/o having to increase backpressure on the stick. Especially if you're looking up about 45degrees at the bandit's belly/tail (in cold side lag??) about 800-1000yds out. Drop the notch, nudge the rudder to dip the nose a hair as ya pull through, pull the flaps up and nudge the aileron, lay down on the trigger, BOOM!
That first notch is also a nice aid in a displacement roll, whether you're trying to cause or prevent the overshoot.
Under 250 you can kick out 2 notches. I'll keep using the first notch as above, to tighten the turn for the shot or to avoid getting shot. Usually don't drop the 2nd notch unless I'm going over the top or trying to prevent/cause an overshoot. There have been times I've used 3, 4, or even full flaps for this for the added drag.
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Swoop;
By any chance is your joystick spiking?
Check the AH joystick scope to make sure.
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Ya know, I was thinkin that last night..........planes just felt more floaty than usual, so I recalibrated. No difference. No spikes seen on the graph, all looks normal.
And a 7 kill sortie in a P51D convinced me there's nothin wrong with the stick........but I didnt use any flaps except on landing.
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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I myself find the P51D the best plane since i fly it everyday, i will have to agree that in certain situations u will need to imply more flaps then usual, if u are gettin chased u will need to extend and turn without flaps (3k out or so). 51 will pull u're plane into a nasty spin if u try to do a move takes alot of E, but u will need to watch u're speed u're situation to be able to not stall if u see that u are gettin pulled while turnin easy on the stick since it is plastic :p and that should help you turn a bit easier without hearin the annoyin voice.
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Flaps change the wing incidence giving you a higher AOA for the same pitch angle. That's why it seems like flaps give you more lift. The lift actually results from the increased AOA. Flaps do increase the coefficient of lift allowing lower stall speeds. The lower stall speed allows a slower tighter turn.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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Originally posted by Iron2
51 will pull u're plane into a nasty spin if u try to do a move takes alot of E, but u will need to watch u're speed u're situation to be able to not stall if u see that u are gettin pulled while turnin easy on the stick since it is plastic :p and that should help you turn a bit easier without hearin the annoyin voice.
:eek: :confused: Head swooning there.
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For me the secret of using flaps is not how to use em but when. The best use I see for flaps is that moment when your just a little to fast to make that killer turn. The flaps give you a bit of extra lift into your beam and also the extra drag will slow you just that little to make the otherwise impossible snapshot or evasive. FTR I never use more than 1 notch of flaps unless I'm really slow and dirty and of course the whole point of being a pony driver is not to get your self into that situation, but it happens and often 3 notches can give you the edge. Better hope he aint got friends about cause you wont be getting outta there in a hurry after being that slow:D
Swoop I suggest you go offline and get the feel of just how far you can push it with the flaps before you spin. The other thing which may be your problem is a spiky stick, check it out. It's one sure fire way to give you that nasty spin.
__________________
Flt.Lt.Gremlin
Firebirds, 56 "Fighter" Sqn RAF.
Second Tactical Air Force
(http://www.btinternet.com/~nexx/56sig.gif)
"Quid si coelum ruat - 'What if heaven falls?'"
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swoop,
what speed are you deploying flaps...I've found the d will "flip" to other wing in the 200-225 range if I push it...once I get down under 200 it seems more docile...I've been down at 105 or so on full flaps with no stall or spin....had a few T&B's with shane in CT where we were in the 150's still vertical...205 vs pony...course he always wins :(...but he's got that pony dialed in rock solid at low speed. I think the transition from E fighting to true T&B is where pony is toughest to control.
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Well I'm no Pony expert but I certainly use flaps a lot as I have a genetic tendancy to low down knife fighting ( comes from being a Spit dweeb :) ).
Once committed to a turn fight I will be popping flaps in and out basically dependant on airspeed - below 200 1 notch - as it goes toward 160/180 2 notches and below 3 notches. As Grem said though , don't expect to get out quick.
I have even gone to 4 or full going over the top of a real slow loop because as long as you are gentle with the ailerons it will mush over quite nicely with ridiculously low airspeed showing - I'm sure at some point partly stalled but it will start flying again quickly with everything hanging.
The beauty of the 51 I've found is actually it's excellent speed control and roll rate which I find it maintains all the way down to stall you can actually surprise people but don't do it i a crowd :)
Sparks
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FLS, you stated:
"Flaps change the wing incidence giving you a higher AOA for the same pitch angle. That's why it seems like flaps give you more lift. The lift actually results from the increased AOA. Flaps do increase the coefficient of lift allowing a higher AOA and lower stall speeds. The lower stall speed allows a slower tighter turn."
I think if you check you will find that Flaps produce more life because of increased wing area when depolyed, Angle of incidence, AOI is a constant and would only change if the entire wing moved. Angle of Attack, AOA, is controled by the pilot with the stick. Lift is the direct results of Wing Area, Wing area can be increased or decreased with flaps, the end result is your wing area what ever it is produces so much lift, as a result of being moved through the air (airspeed) producing lift. For the wing to produce excess lift you need to move it at a certain speed. remember thrust vs drag, Lift vs weight. the wing flys because of excess lift, and turns because of excess lift, trun radius (turning rate) is directly related to speed.
The faster you go, the longer the turn radius, the idea behind a low speed turning fight (rolling sissor) is to slow down to gain positon behind the nme that is currently parked on your 6.
The purpose of Flaps is to increase your angle of desent without the resulting increase of airspeed from lowering the nose, ie...approach for a landing.
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Flaps increase wing CAMBER. Camber is the amount of curvature of the wing looking from the side (ie. the wing chord).
The AIAA Aerospace Design Engineers Guide states "Generally they are used to increase the wing camber or in some other way to control the flow over the wing... Wing flaps increase the camber at the wing trailing edge, thus inducing a higher lift due to increased circulation at the same angle of attack as the plain wing."
Trust me, I'm a professional. ;)
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From another thread: http://www.p51.mustangsmustangs.com/p51accidents.shtml
Check this site out if you doubt that WW2 fighters (and ponies in particular) are difficult to fly...
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Only Fowler flaps increase the wing area when deployed.
It's certainly true that flaps increase the camber but that doesn't tell Swoop why he stalls when he's riding the stall horn and deploys flaps.
When you change the angle of the flaps it effectively changes the incidence of the wing section as well as increasing the washout. You actually stall at a lower AOA relative to the airframe with flaps deployed. Since the wing has a higher AOA with flaps deployed it's closer to the critical AOA without any pitch change of the airframe. That's why deploying flaps on the verge of a stall, i.e. at the critical AOA, will cause you to stall. If you reduce the AOA from the critical AOA when you deploy the flaps you won't stall.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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Originally posted by FLS
Since the wing has a higher AOA with flaps deployed it's closer to the critical AOA without any pitch change of the airframe. That's why deploying flaps on the verge of a stall, i.e. at the critical AOA, will cause you to stall. If you reduce the AOA from the critical AOA when you deploy the flaps you won't stall.
FLS,
I was just trying to clear up a misconception rather than answer Swoop's initial post...
Your response is pretty good but not entirely accurate. The thing you neglected was that when you deploy flaps, the critical AoA of the wing changes because you are changing the properties of the wing aerofoil. The critical AoA will increase as flaps are deployed, thus it will not necessarily stall the aircraft to keep it at the same AoA relative to the aircraft fuselage. Most flaps produce a nose down pitch change when deployed (due to the centre of lift moving aft) and are thus stable anyway.
What Swoop describes is not extendinging the flaps when near the clean stall speed but riding the stall horn with flaps deployed. It is most likely that he is overcontrolling the aircraft, putting it into a stall (and resulting spin) that is unrecoverable. I have not found it a problem to ride the stall horn in the pony but it is very easy to snatch it into a spin while doing so.
(I know you have been flying for a while Swoop so ignore this section if necessary, maybe newbies will read this though)
My advice to you Swoop (as a dedicated pony driver) is:
Ease up on the stick and avoid turning the pony, it's not designed for that. The laminar flow aerofoil used on the pony's wing is very prone to accelerated stalls and using a notch of flap makes the wing work a lot more inefficiently; you'll get it to turn but you'll get into the wrong end of the speed range real quick. In short, stay high and fast and don't try to outturn anything. If you can't resist the temptation and you do, you'll almost always end up dead unless you have a wingman to save your butt.
If you can't resist the temptation to turn that beautiful silver beast, go offline for awhile and practise max rate turning and spin recovery.
The best method is to climb up to about 10k and enter a spin (throttle closed, nose up, boot the rudder). Let it develop for a full rotation then practise recovering. The best recovery technique is to apply about 50% throttle (to get your control surfaces working) almost full forward stick (depending on severity of spin) and opposite rudder. As the spin recovers, gently release rudder (first) and forward stick (gently or you will snap back into a spin).
Gradually step the start height down until you can recover from a spin at tree top height. With practise you will recognise the spin as it starts and recover before it develops.
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Don't listen to Mako. He's an amateur of such epic proportions he stopped playing AH in disgrace.
:D
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Blue Mako
I think you're correct that I was mistaken but I'm not convinced it's for the reason you gave.
I think what I neglected is that when the lower critical AOA with flaps deployed is exceeded the coefficient of lift is still higher than the coefficient of lift at the higher critical AOA of the wing without the flaps deployed.
As far as I know if you combine slats and flaps then the critical AOA is increased but when flaps alone are used the critical AOA decreases.
I believe that whether the nose goes up or down when flaps are deployed generally depends on the aircraft design. Of course I have no idea how HTC models lift and flaps and flight sims don't have to behave like real aircraft.
I may well have misunderstood what Swoop meant when he said " But the second I deploy flaps I spin." I tend to assume pilot error first but I was speculating why flaps might cause stalls. In testing I don't see any tendency to spin when adding flaps while riding the stall horn so I should have taken more time to consider my response.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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BM
I see nothing in that link to suggest that Mustangs are "difficult to fly". After reading the fatals, I get the impression that inadequate training, pilot errors, and unseen obstacles were the problems...not hard-to-fly aircraft.
If this were the case, how did all those low time WW2 pilots ever make it into combat? One would think they would all be smoking holes long before they ever got to where the action was.
One question...I'm a little unsure what you mean here:
>>The critical AoA will increase as flaps are deployed, thus it will not necessarily stall the aircraft to keep it at the same AoA relative to the aircraft fuselage.<<
Is this a statement regarding the effect of flap extension on the chord line? Or are you saying that flap extension allows a higher stall AOA?
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FLS,
AOA or Angel of Attack is the angel formed by the difference between the Relative Wind and the Cord line of the wing. The Cord line cannot be changed it is designed into the wing. The RW is always sticking the wing head on except when the pilot moves the stick and momentarily changes the angel. That change in angel is what is called the Angel of Attack or AOA. The wing stalls because the airflow over the wing is disturbed and the wing no longer produces lift. Flaps and slats, when deployed, help keep the airflow from stalling. The stall buffet normally produced when a wing approaches a stall, is the buffeting of the wing surface form the disturbed airflow just prior to the stall. Depending on the stability of the aircraft design and military aircraft of WWII were required to be dynamically stable, not so for modern day fighters. The movement of the nose of the aircraft at the time that flaps are lowered is predictable in dynamically stable aircraft. If the pilot makes no control inputs and lowers flaps in a dynamically stable aircraft trimmed for straight and level, the nose will rise. If that pilot then re-trims for straight and level and raises the flaps, the nose will lower. The change in pitch is due to COL or Center of Lift, not to be confused with COG or Center of Gravity. As the wing area changes (Flaps, slats), so does the COL.
Swoopy stalls because he exceeds the Angel of Attack.
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I thought Flossy was the Angel of attack. :D
IcKid you got a lot of it right, maybe this will help.
The chord line is an imaginary straight line from the leading edge to the trailing edge of the wing. Because the wing is typically twisted the wingtip has a different chord line than the wing root. Since the incidence is the angle of the chord line relative to the fuselage centerline the wingtip has a different incidence than the wing root. This is significant because the wing tip has the ailerons and the wing root has the flaps. It's convenient to consider the root incidence the wing incidence. The root incidence is useful to determine the AOA since the wing is twisted so that the root stalls before the tip. When the camber of the wing is changed by lowering the flaps the position of the trailing edge changes. Since the chord line is just an imaginary line from the leading edge to the trailing edge the chord line also changes when the flaps change the camber. Since the AOA is the angle of the chord line to the relative wind you can say that the flaps change the AOA even though the pitch attitude hasn't changed. The pitch attitude may change as a response to the flaps but the direction and amount of the change depends on the particular aircraft design.
--)-FLS----
Musketeers
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FLS,
None of this mean anything to a pilot in a dogfight, bottom line is Swoop stalled because his control movements exceeded the critial angel of attack , he distroyed the airflow over the leading edge of the wing.
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My cut (without the Physics lessons)...
Buy a Force Feedback Stick, you'll feel the stall before it happens and learn exactly how much applied force you can get away with. The stall horn is not an accurate representation of the airflow or lack-of being experienced by the wings...
'til then....
A Pony is a pure "E" fighter. Fly it any other way and death will find your six.
One other word of advice. Don't make your Pony kill baddies, let it.;)
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Originally posted by Andy Bush
BM
I see nothing in that link to suggest that Mustangs are "difficult to fly". After reading the fatals, I get the impression that inadequate training, pilot errors, and unseen obstacles were the problems...not hard-to-fly aircraft.
If this were the case, how did all those low time WW2 pilots ever make it into combat? One would think they would all be smoking holes long before they ever got to where the action was.
One question...I'm a little unsure what you mean here:
>>The critical AoA will increase as flaps are deployed, thus it will not necessarily stall the aircraft to keep it at the same AoA relative to the aircraft fuselage.<<
Is this a statement regarding the effect of flap extension on the chord line? Or are you saying that flap extension allows a higher stall AOA?
Hehe Andy, I meant difficult to fly in that it isn't possible for your average Joe with 50 hours flying Cessnas to jump in and fly a high performance aircraft like a P51 safely. I meant this to illustrate that when we grab a new plane here in AH we shouldn't expect to be able to fly it to the edge of it's envelope in a very short time, we have to train on the virtual planes just like the real ones.
As far as my statement about the critical AoA, I was trying to explain in a simple way (probably didn't accomplish this) that the lift properties of the wing change when flaps are deployed and that we can't expect the same values of critical AoA, maximum lift coefficient etc to stay the same as a clean wing.
I made the reference to the AoA relative to the aircraft in response to FLS's post.
Flaps allow the wing to develop greater lift at the same angle of attack as a plain wing. Due to the change in wing camber, however, the lift properties of the wing are changed, depending on things like flow separation etc this can mean operation at higher angles of attack... It all depends on the individual wing and flap setup.
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Originally posted by gavor
Don't listen to Mako. He's an amateur of such epic proportions he stopped playing AH in disgrace.
:D
:p
You just envy my pony...
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
:p
You just envy my pony...
Keep that in your pants..... Oh wait, i get it. Plane. hehe.
Hurry back mako, theres no-one to fly with at nights!
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BM
My impression is that the typical sim gives the impression that flying a WW2 fighter was difficult. Too often, the sim's AI is programmed such that "spins" are a typical result of over-controlling back pressure. This is simply not the case in most instances.
The average WW2 new pilot was put into a fighter-type aircraft very early in his career...much earlier than we do today. These guys somehow managed to survive...which leads me to believe that the planes were not killers waiting to bite the new guy on the butt that some sims make them out to be.
On the matter of flaps and WW2 fighters. No one should generalize about aero matters...there are too many "yeah but's" to make this foolhardy. Having said that, my belief is that most WW2 fighters had a conventional response to flap extension....the stall AOA was reduced, and the nose lowered as a result of flap extension. Yes, there were exemptions to this, but most often not.
Andy
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Originally posted by Andy Bush
BM
My impression is that the typical sim gives the impression that flying a WW2 fighter was difficult. Too often, the sim's AI is programmed such that "spins" are a typical result of over-controlling back pressure. This is simply not the case in most instances.
The average WW2 new pilot was put into a fighter-type aircraft very early in his career...much earlier than we do today. These guys somehow managed to survive...which leads me to believe that the planes were not killers waiting to bite the new guy on the butt that some sims make them out to be.
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Hmmm not so sure I would agree. I think it depends on how you define "difficult to fly". Sure, you can fly it from A to B but I think if you tried to fly them aggressively with only a few hours on type then you would be a greasy spot on the tarmac pretty quick. Just think of the terrible attrition rates that new pilots suffered in WWII...
On the matter of flaps and WW2 fighters. No one should generalize about aero matters...there are too many "yeah but's" to make this foolhardy. Having said that, my belief is that most WW2 fighters had a conventional response to flap extension....the stall AOA was reduced, and the nose lowered as a result of flap extension. Yes, there were exemptions to this, but most often not.
You are spot on about generalising, unfortunately though it is hard to get the specific information required so you often have no choice (does anyone have the lift-curve charts for flaps in/out for the P51D handy? I don't).
I agree about the general response to flap deployment (as I stated in my previous post) and I probably got myself and others confused trying to reply to one of the other posters using the total aircraft as a reference instead of just referring to the wing so I appologise if I wasn't spot on the mark (I also have a bad case of the flu atm). Anyway, as you said, most WWII aircraft behaved conventionally with flap deployment...
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I am by no means an expert in aerodynamics or fighter tactics. But I have been flying in flight sims since my 75mHz Mac performa. Most of that time in the pony and I have found 2 things to be true 1 guide the plane do not try and drive it. The minute you start driving the pony you are getting away from what it does best. As far a deploying flaps I use them but when I do a little red light goes off telling me I need to get the heck out of dodge or kill the poor sob I am fighting with and quick. In AW flaps in a pony were required if you wanted to loop pulling any more that about 3 g's (too many!!). I don't see that in AH. The first step is try and keep yourself out of a situation that flaps are needed. Ok you are slow and have to make a turn, to make this turn you are going to have to use flaps. I have found that making sure the plane is not slipping will prevent that spin you were talking about, but then you are talking about an in-plane maneuver which will probably get you killed or not give you the shot anyway. Oh yea... the second thing I have learned Patience. Extend wait on the other guy to make a mistake and don't be afraid to bug out.
Shoot straight!!
Rass
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Shoot straight!!
Rass>
Well Said Rass!!!
As i am still learning this FM I think that is the most important think in Stangin.
But, if you are CO alt/E those flaps will help you out ask your CO about the olden days of us fighting 51's on the deck . pumpin flaps and throttle. you would think that we were flyin yaks
i could force most into mistakes when i knew exactly how my 51 would respond at said alt and speed.
as i do not have the same skills yet in this flight model. i still have a few million mistakes to make here but, i will eventually get the hang of this bird. Deploying the flaps in a 51 in the right situation will give you an edge or they will get you killed . it is up to your knowlage of your ride.
Sorry fellers i hadda chime in since one of my old students from the olde days chimed in. right now i really dont know my bellybutton from apple butter In AH.
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