Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: Nefarious on March 08, 2002, 07:24:17 PM
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We've been whooping major bellybutton all over your little green planes!
And just a point to say, I didnt see a 412th AAR here yet but last frame 412th found about 12-14 zekes at low level and the meatballs were splodin' all over!!
If I remember correctly we claimed 12-14 zekes for the loss of two P-38's??
Great Job Fellas!
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Nef, imho, Pretty poor taste to come here bragging about killing an enemy that was so badly outnumbered for the entire TOD. In this last frame, we were outnumbered 2 to 1. On average, we had 25 pilots per frame less than the allies.
So ... forgive me for not giving you the WTG you so desparately desire ...
Nim
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Why were the numbers so bad? Did people stop showing up from the Axis squads?
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PTO TODs always suck for the Japanese. AH doesn't have a very competitive planeset for the Japanese yet and nobody ever wants to fly for the Japs. 56th FG would have flown Japanese this TOD to improve the Japs odds, but P-47s were available in frame 1 and 2 and we hadn't flown the jug in a few tours. The last frame we didn't even see any enemy aircraft, but there were plenty of blue planes flying around--way too many in fact.
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We have flown Axis every TOD and decide we'd like a break this time.
On a side note, it is the Axis squads fault if they are outnumbered. The numbers you report as the amount of pilot you are going to have present is the numbers that the CMs use to distribute the squads equally. So...if you're reporting 10 but only bringing 4, you're going to be outnumbered.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
On a side note, it is the Axis squads fault if they are outnumbered. The numbers you report as the amount of pilot you are going to have present is the numbers that the CMs use to distribute the squads equally. So...if you're reporting 10 but only bringing 4, you're going to be outnumbered.
Raub, you say that like there are Axis squads. Clearly, that's not the case since you and your mates are flying Allied. To be sure, there are squads that prefer one or the other, but most of us try to make TOD a success and if that means flying something we don't ordinarily fly, we do it.
Raub, I'll bet ya something. If the allies and axis switched sides, within one frame, axis numbers would be declining. Think we should chime in with "Well, Raub, you should accurately report your numbers?"
Guys, it's the planeset. Many of the squads that normally fly LW iron became lovers of Allied iron when faced with the spectre of flying zekes and KIs against p38s, F6Fs and F4Us.
The worst part of it is that the KIs/N1Ks can compete against the P38s/F6Fs/F4Us if numbers are approximately equal.
I'm not sure of the solution, but I do know it isn't enjoyable flying against overwhelming numbers.
curly
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Kratzer - no so much failing to show. There were primarily two factors that contributed to the ridiculous odds. First, many of the Axis squads failed to field the number of pilots they signed up for. Second, many of the allied squads were WELL over what they signed up for.
Sancho, hey man, no problemo at all. I dont fault you guys in any was for this. I fault two things: One, the Allied squads that CONTINUED to fill well above their registered number even AFTER seeing the effects. And two, the Axis squads that failed to fkill their registered numbers.
Raub, thats just a terrible thing to say my friend. And I agree with you obviously that some of the axis squads did fail to field the number of pilots they assigned up for ... and that this created huge problems. But what does that have to do with the odds in fact being ridiculous, and then some idjit coming in here and bragging about superior planes with superior alt killing an inferior enemy? What the hell did he expect?
I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think a definite starting point would be this: If you squad signs up for 10 pilots, then by god bring 10 pilots. Not 11, not 14 - 10. How the hell are we supposed to figure out how to match up squads when a squad that registers for 4-7 shows up with 10-14? Last night the AK's (single squad) ran into two squads (13th TAS and 412). We were 15 strong, and must have flow into at least 20 pilots with superior alt and superior planes. Those two squads were 4-7 pilot squads, but obviously a good bit more than that showed up - to our demise.
Oh well. We [CMs] will figure something out to fix this. These events have to be fun for everyone, or they will not be successful.
Nim
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Yeah I agree Nim people shouldn't smack talk. I'm not going to go into detail but they just shouldn't. As you said it shows poor taste :) .
Whoever those zekes were we rank into near C25 Kudos to you guys you were outnumbered 3-1 and you made one hell of a fight!
I you. Great effort Axis you have my respect.
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Great job axis and allies.
TOD rocks because of the quality of players from both sides:)
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My guys flew as axis for every tour till this 1.
I was axis co several times I dont remember ever seeing all the axis squads meet their committed numbers.
I remember on the Euro map expecting near 25 -30 fer a cap on Nothern Europe and 9 showed up.
or the last tod I was in prior to this one........
in the stalingrad map where the axis co had assigned us cap with another squad. He expected numbers in the 20s......
Only 1 guy from the other squad showed and left us with 10. We were hit by 2 waves of il2s and a toejame load of la5s and yaks.
I certainly dont think bragging about beating someone when going in its pretty much guarranteed what the out come will be.
Had the axis won though with there inferior position I would have expected a lot of braggin...........
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The numbers are a big headache for us CM's.
Nifty had the sides divided as evenly as possible and it was looking good at the start.
There were several sqads who had fewer than their registered number, but more than 66% attendance so there's nothing we can say about that.
There was a few squads who had more than their registered number and unfortunately flew allied and further skewed the numbers.
If you are a squad who is going over 100% regularily theh you should be upping the number of registered pilots.
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Well there has definitely been a problem this TOD when it comes to turn out among both sides. In frame 1 the Allies had a 20+ plane advantage. In frame 3 (last night) I think it might have been close to a 30+ plane advantage.
And it does seem that some Axis squads had a low turn out while some allied squads had over the 120% turnout they are allowed by the rules.
First thing I would do is go back and look at the roster of all the squads for all the TODs to figure out what type of numbers squads fill on the average, the max number they have ever fielded, and the lowest number they have ever fielded. I think this statistical information might be better for figuring out what numbers they will field instead of the "commitment" number they use.
Second in PTO scenario I agree that the Ki-61 and N1K2 can definitely hold their own against the American Iron. The A6M5b is out classes though. Since we do not have P39s, P40s, and F4Fs to use against the Japanese I would suggest that future scenarios take this into account and put the American fleets in range of several land bases which can field the more advanced Japanese planes.
Last night one of our fleets was in range of A7 and we were worried about a N1K2 and JU88 attack (don't know if it happened) but I don't think the IJN had the numbers to really launch a strong strike from there.
The scenario was good to my mind but possibly with this experience now we could look to readjusting ship positions to maybe give the IJN a better option of getting the Ki-61s and N1K2s to their fleet to protect it. Such a readjustment could help them counter act the problem of lower turnout than the allies and let their CiCs have the option of putting up some of their better planes. This is just an off the cuff remark and not a criticism of the scenario design but some thoughts on how maybe to adjust it.
But we definitely got to do something to make it more appealing for guys to fly IJN. Possible some tweaking of the setup (repositioning fleets) and make more land bases have advance IJN fighters would help.
Truthfully I think last night was a combination of things that went wrong for the IJN.
[list=1]
- Low IJN pilot turnout
- Some allied squads going over 120% turnout
- Fleet positioning might have played a factor making it difficult for the IJN to protect their fleet with anything more that A6M5bs.
- Orders problems. I understand from the BBS that the IJN only got their orders on Friday and had a hard time replacing their assigned CiC. I am sure this also was a factor for last night.
Another thought that came to mind is maybe to widen the containment area for the IJN CVs from 4 sectors to 6 sectors. I know in frame 1 it took the Nightmares VMF-101 1 hour to find the IJN fleet because it had strayed out of the 4 sector containment area. Widening the sectors it was in will force the allies to scout more and spread out their forces more.
Why this is important is because basically when a flight of 20 Hellcats come screaming in and don't want to engage but instead want to dive bomb there is not a lot that the slower A6M5bs can do to stop such a large scale attack. A wider area to search might break up these massive F6F-5s attacks and give the Zekes a little better chance with defending against them.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
We have flown Axis every TOD and decide we'd like a break this time.
On a side note, it is the Axis squads fault if they are outnumbered. The numbers you report as the amount of pilot you are going to have present is the numbers that the CMs use to distribute the squads equally. So...if you're reporting 10 but only bringing 4, you're going to be outnumbered.
Your posts implies that Axis didn't have the numbers expected. How do you know that the allies didn't have more than were signed up? If you don't in fact know this then you shouldn't be so quick to assign fault.
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Dang wotan, I was surprised you didn't take the opportunity to brag about when we flew IJA in Mindanao in the september TOD. Ahhh, yes, we really gave them a hiding.
Zekes are fun but again, no match against any of the amurrican planes available.
In multiframe scenarios, morale plays a factor. The initial frame didn't have a great balance, and the japanese got their butts kicked. Frame 2 saw a similar butt-kicking. I'm betting many people found something else to do rather than show up for round three.
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I don't think Raub was referring to 'Axis' squads as in the sense you think he was - I think he was just referring to the squads that are on the axis side for this TOD.
I DO think that even if things aren't going so well, people need to remember that they have made a commitment to the event and show up - the shoe will be (and has been) on the other foot next time around. Lord knows I've been on the receiving end of the big stick flying axis in the past on several occasions.
It does suck to get your bellybutton handed to you, but it isn't the fault of the winning team that sides were unbalanced, and while I don't see much point in gloating in this situation, I think it isn't wrong for the allies to feel good about winning. Our squad had 5 pilots (below our usual), and we only ever encountered 4 enemy planes - and that isn't much of an unfair fight.
If stricter roster caps are in order, I have no problem supporting that - it will hopefully alleviate some of these issues.
S! - you put up a good fight with what you had.
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Seeing as squad registration garantees niether ability nor parity - why continue with it?
The "no walk ons rule" has always been justified by saying that TOD's are too complex for walk ons to master, yet apparently the same walk ons can master an entire full scenario.
Is it not time this ruling was reconsidered? What benefit is the rule giving?
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The answer is the squads flying Axis this time were UNDER their numbers and the squads flying Allied were OVER their numbers. Now it wasn't every single squad that was, but in one frame, 5 Allied squads were over (and none under) and 4 Axis squads were under (and none over).
Ghstdncr, I pretty much did use the average of what the squads had been doing in previous TODs. For example, the AKs were only listed at 7-10, but I treated them as 16-20 for balancing. Squads were blowing away their past actual numbers, not just their commitments. The CM team is discussing the matter on the CM forum. A solution will more than likely be in place before the next TOD sides are announced.
The solution to the Zeke problem is no more JABOing fleets. The American fighters can out dive any of the Japanese fighters. The Ki-61 can have some stability in a dive, but the N1K and the Zeke get very stiff, very quickly in a dive. It's very easy to dive and outrun them to target and then extend away from N1Ks and Zekes. So in future TODs, fleet attacks should be carried out by TBMs only on the Allied side. We have the plane in the planeset, we should use it for what it's designed for. The Hellcats and Corsairs can still be used to JABO land targets, where Ki-61s can possibly cover.
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Nim, Curly, we flew JP in every other PTO TOD. I've never seen the lopsided numbers this bad before. Something broke down this time for some reason. Yes, it sucks getting ganged...but it happens to everyone sooner or later. Last frame we ran into the AK cloud of Ki61s and lost our whole squad in like 2 minutes. There were at least 16 of you....and you're registered for 7-10. This is the problem. People commit for a number, but then they either bring too many, or not enough. I know people might not want to fly because of a certain planeset...but if you commit to a number, then you need to produce the folks. On the flip side, if you commit x number of people and all of a sudden x+5 of your folks want to fly, you need to do something about that too. Blame lies on both sides of that situation.
And yes, it is very bad form to come in here and gloat about something like this Nefarious.
TODs are just about the best part of AH, so whatever it takes to fix it I support!
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Raub,
I'm not sure what you are referring to ... but last frame the AK's were wiped out. We have been wiped out within the first 15-30 min in each and every TOD.
But you are right, we do need to update our registration. The 7-10 number was such because we were also were registered for the Saturday TOD. Since we have withdrawn from it, we need to update our #'s.
Nim
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Well... he's referring to you upping 18 planes when you are registered for 7 - 10, and even though we were on the winning side, we got destroyed very, very quickly when our 6 or 7 guys ran into your 18 - game over for us.
No, you aren't the only ones, but the point that illustrates is that it isn't just a one way street, and it easily could fall the other way, and has in the past.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
And yes, it is very bad form to come in here and gloat about something like this Nefarious.
TODs are just about the best part of AH, so whatever it takes to fix it I support!
Something like what????
You guys are hysterical!!, TOD's are fun and exciting, and i applaud everyone that flies in them! You guys just dont like friendly compeitiveness<
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Originally posted by Nefarious
Something like what????
You guys are hysterical!!, TOD's are fun and exciting, and i applaud everyone that flies in them! You guys just dont like friendly compeitiveness<
TOD's have been great fun. We have to find a way to balance the numbers though or they will become a thing of the past and we'll all be "sore losers".
One method is to simply switch a squad or two at the beginning of a frame when it becomes clear the numbers are imbalanced. The AK's volunteered and did this on a Saturday TOD joining the still heavily outnumbered side. This creates a lot of problems but is more fun than fighting with/against 2-1 odds.
I certainly don't speak for any AK other than myself but if the trend continues I won't.
Edited: Another possible solution occured to me. Rotate all squads through a standby status. I don't mean standby in the sense that they may or may not fly. I mean they won't know which side they'll fly with and they'll not be privy to either sides orders until 10 mins or so before TOD start time.
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Kratzer,
I said Raub was right and that we needed to update our squad registration to accurately reflect what we were bring in. I also think the problem lies in the orders given to the squads. We have an alternative target to hit, A4. You guys defended it like it was the primary target (and I realize you guys have no way of knowing). But when a squad is assigned to hit an alternative target, generally you dont expect to run into 2 squads defending it. There are solutions to this problem, we just need to find 'em.
Nefarious,
You are absolutely correct. We are here expressing our concerns because we are sore losers.:rolleyes: If I were one of the allied squads that upped a 10 strong squad and didnt encounter a single enemy, I would be here expressing concerns as well. But then probably just because I would be a sore winner.
And another thing. If the Allies had "whopped ass" on even terms, and just outflown the Axis, I have no problem with runnin' the mouth. Your right, just competive juices. There is one thing that was missing from your gloat - competitive. What you did was like Michael Johnson racing a man on crutches in the 100 meter dash, and the bragging about winning.
Oh well, I forget it takes all kinds of ppl to make up an online community. I need to accept that.
Nim
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First off, Nefari posted before the last frame, so he didn't know the numbers would be so lopsided.
As to the issue of numbers, I've been on both sides of "ass whoopings" where one side is shorthanded and the other side brings a lot of guys. It's not fun for either side. Fortunately it is not a problem all that often. But I support the CMs in trying to find ways to keep the numbers in balance.
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Funked,
The numbers have been so lopsided for each Frame in the Phillipines TOD.
Nmi
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Yer right Nim.
But I think some guys interpreted it as post-Frame 3 chest beating, which it wasn't. It was pre-Frame 3 chest beating, a lesser charge. :)
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LOL
:D
Nim
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LOL funked!