Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: wulf14 on March 09, 2002, 02:47:56 AM
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Question:
1. Fw 190D, Fw 190A, and Fw 190F all have same icons to enemy. Spitfire Vb and Spitfire IXe and Seafire all have same icons to enemy. Why does F4U-4 have difference icon that F4U-1? I don't know that much overall about F4Us. Was the F4U very different looking?
Any reason is good enough with me, but is there a reason that Ta-152 doesn't use Fw 190 icon and a reason why the F4U-4 shouldn't use the F4U icon?
Ideas:
1. Rumor has it that perked ground vehicles are coming soon. How difficult would it be to 'generalize' ground vehicle icons when said vehicles are spotted by aircraft? For instance, a PzKpfw VG would have a 'Pz V' icon when seen thru the MA optics of a Sherman. But a PzKpfw V, a T-34/76C, a Pz IVH...would all have an icon that reads 'MBT' when said icon is shown to a player flying an aircraft. M3 and M16 MGMC would both have an icon that reads 'HT' to a player flying an aircraft, as would a SPW 251 if and when it appears. The main reason for the idea - if you model a M26, or IS-2, or PzKpfw VIE, they are going to attract bombs like never before. But historically a pilot flying a ground attack sortie would never have taken the time to pick the PzKpfw VG out of a group of PzKpfw IVHs for his bombs or rockets...
2. When near an enemy town or other facility that has any building standing, if a player is flying under a certain altitude and/or a certain speed (say 300' and 150 MPH), resolve some 'random small arms fire' against said aircraft. For ever 2 or 3 seconds that the player's aircraft is within said parameters, there is a chance of taking a random # of 7.92mm or .303cal hits to a random location. You'd be abstractly simulating the fact that if a P-51D was flying 'figure 8s' over an enemy airfield at low speed and low altitude (because the AA weapons of the field were disabled), a pair of MPs near a revetment with nothing to do would certainly try and light up said P-51D. Call it a minor 'motivator' for AH pilots to avoid situations that real pilots would take care to avoid.
I know the MA isn't supposed to be 'real'...but a few rifle caliber MG 'pings' could sometimes puncture cooland lines or a radiator. Who knows...maybe a 15 kill vulching sortie might be prematurely ended every once in awhile.
3. Recovery vehicles/aircrew recovery: Chop the turret off a PzKpfw IVH and give it an extra AAMG. Let it carry 'vehicle supplies'. If it rolls up to a friendly vehicle missing a track or a wheel or an engine and drops said supplies, the previously damaged vehicle regains mobility in 3 minutes (yeah I know it's fast...like 30 second refuel rearm 'Indy 500 ordinance teams' at airfields - playability for the MA). Pilot on the ground, ditched plane on the ground. M3 or M8 or PT comes to within 100 meters of either, and types a command. Pilot and/or ditched aircraft disappear. If M3 or M8 or PT finishes mission without being captured or killed then bailed out player or ditched player isn't captured. Vehicle player gets 1% or 2% or whatever % works of downed players sortie and perk points as a reward (i.e. a player is on an attack mission, and has 3000 points under attack sorties and 150 fighter perk points - his rescuer gets 300 vehicle sortie points and 1.5 vehicle perk points). The reverse would apply for enemy vehicles - drive up on an enemy pilot on ground with an M8 and get some reward if he ends mission with you nearby or if you close in on him and type the command.
If you capture a pilot you get a 'picture' of his sides radar as of 10 minutes ago. Maybe you spot a sneaky low level mission headed around the back door to the HQ. You get to see where the enemy CVGs are, etc.
This would take some mechanics and I have no idea how it would work. Probably a better solution. Have you guys ever thought of doing this or is it way down the list in terms of importance?
Just ideas...
Mike/wulfie from WB
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I like the random groundfire idea.
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Why do we need icons that identify plane type at all ?
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You need icons for aircraft type to effectively simulate the ability to discern detail at range.
In real life, trained pilots and aircrew can ID aircraft types at much greater ranges than in AH if there were no icons. The main problem is resolution. Take the highest resolution in AH and it can't begin to compete with the 'Mark 1 Mod 0 eyeball'.
If you modeled something like a MiG-29 and an Su-27 to scale, and put them in AH with no icons, the maximum range at which you could tell the difference between the two in AH while running AH at the highest possible resolution would be far shorter than the maximum range that a real life pilot could ID the two at in the real world.
Mike/wulfie from WB
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HT said that perk vehicles will not be in 1.09.It is very likely in 1.10 though,at least that's what he said he's trying for.
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all perk planes should have an icon identifing them as such.
I will lets Lazs explain it to ya...........
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I think Wulf14 explained it very well.
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I like your ideas wulf14. S!
The icon issue for the f4u models (f4u-1, f4u-1c/d, and f4u-4) as well as all 190, 109, p47, etc, has probably been thought over by HTC. Each player has different vid settings (resolution, depth, etc) along with different monitors. Pilots therefore cannot determine the aircraft model at distance at lower res as good as players flying at a higher res. But to make things fair by intentionally telling you what the model is at a greater range takes away the need to learn the correct models yourself and thus making it less challenging... I dont like handicaps and never will. its like calling retards 'alternatively advantaged'. We're not tards (dweebs, dorks, and turds yes, but not tards :)) I like the system we have now.
As for the GV icons, the generic MBT (main battle tank?), HT (halftrack?), I really like this idea. When we do get perk vehicles, I certainly dont want to be singled and targeted right away. Maybe if the pilot were to get a good look (say, lock on to the target for 3+ seconds) then the icon would change to the exact vehicle tag. Eg: fly overhead at 5k and high speed and see an icon reading MBT for a generic tank. When you get a closer and more detailed look (say having him in your sights for a determined amount of time) you will have a positive ID and the icon would change on your FE to its exact ID. MBT + positive ID = Pz IV. good idea, just thought i'd build on it. and perhaps this system could be implemented with all icons (109, f4u, 190, p47, p51, hurricane, spit, and any other variants of aircraft). 190 = generic. 190 + positive ID = 190D-9 or 190F-8 or what have you).
random groundfire would be a neat addition too. but i would *not* want some random fire to end my vulchfest :D. I can hear the complaints now, worse than the laser ack problem we have already =]
oct out
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Icon's are not only to tell planes arpart but give a distance reading ... we are stuck in a 2-d world here;you need icon's to know distance. with only one 'eye' you have no clue how far away something is.
oh ya the reason f4u4 has diffrant icon is it costs 60 perks .. if it cost only 8 it would be labeled f4u IMO
:rolleyes:
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The F4U icon has been mentioned before. The same thing pertains to the C202/205 icons.
ra
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"Why do we need icons that identify plane type at all ?"
Try to identify AH planes by their SHAPE at 5000 yards (which BTW is less than 3 miles) and you'll see why. AH simply lacks the sort of detail that you need to effectively operate without ICONS.
Octavius doesn't seem to realize just how bad AH's graphics (or ANY computer simulation) are. AH without ICONS is almost the same effect as rendering the players legally blind--and is certainly not representative of WW2-era air combat. AH's ICONS aren't a crutch, they're a necessary tool to maintain ANY level of realism to the simulation. Remove them and you'd have a tougher, possibly "more fun" game but it wouldn't have anything to do with WW2-era air combat. Heck, even WITH the ICONS AH still lacks the depth of field of the human eye, but at least it's close.
Just because something is more difficult doesn't mean it's more realistic. The technology just doesn't exist for the home market to make a fighter simulation that doesn't require some sort of ICONS. Now whether you need to attach the ICONS to the plane on-screen is a different matter entirely--I rather liked AirWarrior's original system of having the ICONS off the screen to the side.
J_A_B
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Perk planes have separate icons so we can see that they indeed are perk planes, I suspect.
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If they want the perkies to have different icons, at least let the 205 and 202 have the same.
Only difference is the guns; just like the F4UC and D
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Originally posted by J_A_B
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Try to identify AH planes by their SHAPE at 5000 yards (which BTW is less than 3 miles) and you'll see why. AH simply lacks the sort of detail that you need to effectively operate without ICONS.
J_A_B
It isn't possible to Identify a plane that is 15,000 feet away with the naked eye in real life . My eyes are fine and I sometimes had trouble ID'ing helicopters that were flying over at 4,000 to 5,000 feet it was actually easier just to ID them sound. Now try to imagine ID'ing a fighter plane that is flying over you at 15k. I agree we need icons, just as long as they stay at 3k for scens and the CT :)
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"It isn't possible to Identify a plane that is 15,000 feet away with the naked eye in real life . "
I beg to differ--I do exactly that all the time! I'm posting from my own experience, not from some sort of hypothetical situation. And I can also judge its distance to within a few hundred yards.
Let me explain:
I live almost exactly 3 miles away (a little under 3 actually, but close) from a small airport--I can actually see its spotlight and windsock from my window that is 6 feet away from me. Provided the weather is good I can watch planes taking off and landing, and believe me I can disginuish a lot of them apart. The neat thing is they usually end up flying right over my house so I can tell if I was right or not; I've spent literally hours at a time on nice days doing this.
It's a shame that several new houses are being built which are going to block my view. By this summer I won't be able to do this anymore.
If you want a real challenge, try identifying different types of automobiles at this distance. I can tell some of them apart but most are just too small. An airplane, you will note, is quite a lot bigger than an automobile.
J_A_B
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You just said that you can id planes and sometimes autos from 5 klicks w/o binos . :D
Too funny
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If you don't want to believe me that's fine--go stick your head in the sand and maybe it'll all go away. Some people never let fact stand in the way of their preconcieved notions. I find it simple to ID quite a lot of different types of planes at just under 3 miles And you can't? Perhaps you can't see the forest because of all the trees in the way.
To identify aircraft, you don't need to be able to see individual markings or rivets. It's a process of elimination. Is the plane high or low-wing? Fixed gear? What kind of tail? Single or multi-engine? Trike or taildragger (there's a few Cubs at Skypark including a cool one painted in olive drab with circa-1941 USAAF markings)? Engine type?
Can I tell apart very similar aircraft at 3 miles? Of course not. Can I tell a Cub from a Cessna? Heck yes! There used to be a Yak-18 at Skypark (first time I saw it I thought it was a Kate, except it has an engine fan like a FW-190), and it was highly distinctive from the usual aircraft to say the least.
In terms of WW2 aircraft, I'd say it'd be EASY to tell say a P-47D from a Bf-109 at 3 miles from virtually any angle. Telling that 109 from a Macci 205, though, might be a bit trickier and likely impossible from several angles.
Rendering all AH players legally blind isn't the answer.
J_A_B
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Why not show distance icons from 5K out and type icons from only 2 or 3 K out?
Mazz
<-TFC->
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Actually perkplanes have separate icons so you can get into one of them (preferably the 262) fly over gangbanged airfield and drag 75% of those bangers to Hawaii :D
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The C.202 and 205 have different icons because they're named differently. All F4-Us have the same name (ie F4U). What would you call C.202/205 icon?
C.20X?
Dingo
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"Macci"
J_A_B
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I was just typing that very thing JAB!!
cept i would spell it Macchi, perhaps Macc would suffice as an icon
The planes are soo similar in external appearance,(and aren't perkies) that in RL i would imagine in combat one, would have to get failry close to ID them. Macchi seems more than reasonable to me.
There are more differences externally between 109F and 109G( lol and lets compare 190D vs 190A !!) than 202 and 205.
I'd imagine a 190D in formation with a 190A(in RL) at 3 miles would appear to be 2 different aircraft.
SKurj
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Samm, it may surprise you, but during WW2 the entire population of the UK was taught to identify German aircraft from a great distance (because they were bombers, possibly with fighter escort). Posters were everywhere, and watch stations were all around the coasts. The human eye excels at pattern recognition; radar may have made it less important, but radar can fail.
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Why would that surprise me ?
To give some perspective of how far 15,000 feet is, that is higher than the summit of Mt Rainier which is often above the clouds ! Lol, anyone who has ever been in western Washington can relate to this .
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The C205 and C202 have different icon for a reason.
While not a perk plane in terms of perk points, the C202 is a perk plane 'in spirit'. It is so much better than the rest of the planes, but because HTC have decided to keep this a secret, it isn't perked.
Everyone knows what the mighty DeathRay(tm) technology of the C202 can do.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Everyone knows what the mighty DeathRay(tm) technology of the C202 can do.
All I can do is to second that :D 202 has a devil inside :)
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The only problem I have with icons is that they are day glow.
Searching the skys for enemy planes should take more than the briefest flick of the thumb which is all it take to check your six when you know the bad guy will have a huge set of red letters over his head.
My suggested solution is for the icons to all be the *same color* and *start as transparent* against the background and increase in contrast as the range closed.
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HFMudd, good idea for arenas like the CT...
Hmm doesn't ww2ol already use this..
SKurj