Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: VWE001 on March 11, 2002, 10:29:26 AM
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On the silly spitty XI you have the 20mm's outboard and the .50's inboard... in actuality it was the other way round.
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Actually, the Mk XI had no guns at all, and was used only for photo recon.
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LOL.
*click* *click*
Papparrazzi Spitfire!
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Oh Boy VWE001....
That little protrusion next to the cannon barrel is NOT a gun barrel.
The MGs were MUCH farther out on the wing
Some spit wings did have that protrusion on the opposite side of the cannon, but I don't have any images of a Spit IX with the configuration in your image. (MK VIII's tho)
OOPS as a note I have no images of a Spit with .50's but I highly doubt thats a 50 cal barrel next to the cannon.
All the images I have are of 20's plus 303's. I am assuming the 50's were placed in the same position as the inner most 303's.. perhaps the spit experts can pipe up here +)
SKurj
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You dummy... the Mk IX had 2 20mm inboard and 2 .50 just outboard. Can you not read the post correctly the first time around? Yes, if the combo was 2 20mm and 4 .303 as in the Seafire then yes they would be far outboard. But are we talking about the Seafire? No, this post is about the Mk.IX... :mad:
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The protrusion you see on the other side of the cannon is for the other 20mm's that were added as a field install. As the Mk.IX came out of the shop it was fitted with 2 20mm and 4 .303 or 2 .50 and the field modifacations allowed for the deleation of the machine guns and the addition of 2 more 20mm.
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Originally posted by VWE001
You dummy... the Mk IX had 2 20mm inboard and 2 .50 just outboard. Can you not read the post correctly the first time around?
:D
Can you not write the post correctly the first time around?
Are you talking about XI or IX? Make up your mind!
ps. sorry, couldn't resist :)
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Mk.IX or Mk.XI either way it aint the Mk.II ;)
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OOps +)
Still don't have any images of 50's on MK IX's but i doubt it will be long for the truth to come out...
SKurj
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Originally posted by VWE001
The protrusion you see on the other side of the cannon is for the other 20mm's that were added as a field install. As the Mk.IX came out of the shop it was fitted with 2 20mm and 4 .303 or 2 .50 and the field modifacations allowed for the deleation of the machine guns and the addition of 2 more 20mm.
a s u look at the attachted pic (i hope). the long protursion
would be the 20mm barrel, the 2 red squares would be
where the mgs would be. there are 4 on this 1, showing
placement of the 303s (4 of them). im guessing but the
2 50cals would only use the inner red square.
by the way, spits only carried 2 20mms not 4, i have not
seen any notes saying they ever had 4 20mms.
whels
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Whels...
You make the same assumptions i did...
Yet Pyro and the gang have the 50's firing from that protrusion next to the cannon barrel....
I am searching but haven't found any images to prove who is wrong or right....
and.... i have many images of 4 20mm spits, from Mk V's on up...
SKurj
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Mk. IX history snipit...
In response to the introduction of the Fw-190, another 'interim' mark of Spitfire was proposed, pending full scale development of the Mk VIII. The result was the Mk IX. Like the Mk V, this 'stop-gap' was also an outstanding success, 5,665 being built, the second highest number of any mark!
The Mk.IX series was powered by the Rolls-Royce Merlin 61, 12 cylinder V, liquid-cooled, generating 1,565 hp.
It was developed in response to the appearance of the Focke-Wulf 190 that, in 1942, was decided superior to the Mk.V in everything except turn radius.
The Mk.IV was basically the Mk.V airframe married to the more powerful Merlin engine.
A total 5,665 were built in three basic sub-series designed for low, medium and high altitude combat (with the LF, F and HF wings) and armament type (b, c or e) b's and c's had four 0.303 machine guns and two 20 mm cannons, and e's had two 12.7 mm machine guns and two cannons and up to a 1,002 lb (454 kg) bomb load.
Numerous subvariants of the Mk.IX were produced and given other numbers in the series.
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Of course the red tape is covering where the .303's would be, inboard of that is a nub covering what could be installed as either an additional 20mm or a .50 and then inboard of that is the original 20mm.
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Are the two spits shown here the same model? One of them has a bulge at the 20mm cannon. I thought that was needed when the wing was "thinned" in the later versions (not sure when though).
AKDejaVu
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You are incorrect. The .50s on the Spit are always mounted on the inboard. If the .30s are mounted instead of the .50s, the 20mm is mounted in the inboard position and the outboard position is faired over. The picture you show is not one of a .50 mounting, but rather a fairing over that position. Since either armament package is allowed in our Spit, it is the .50 cal installation that displays correctly. If you really want to make a technical nitpick, it's the 20mm position should be moved inboard when you choose the 30cal package, but the .50 cal position is where it should be.
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Further, the .50 is mounted right next to the 20mm just as it is in the game. That position is either faired over or it isn't. The two outer gun positions are for .30 caliber weapons only. The .50 is not mounted out there.
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The "package" in that last picture is 20mm inboard, outside of that is a capped possition, and then furthest out are 2 .303's...
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As per my original post... yes the 20mm and .50 are next to each other, but the 20mm should be inboard and the .50 outboard where as in AH the .50 is inboard and the 20mm is outboard. It really shouldn't be this difficult, should it? :)
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VWE.. reread Pyro's first response one more time... very carefully.
Sheesh... "it really shouldn't be this difficult" isn't always the fault of the other guy.
AKDejaVu
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Yeah, I read the post correctly the first time. And I have a little more knowledge on the subject that people whom just read books and look at pictures.
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Yeah, that silly Pyro. He doesn't know what the heck he's talking about. Probably didn't even research it...just looked at his WWII picture book and modelled after whatever plane was labeled "spitfire". LOL!
SOB
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There you go, making assumptions... I didn't say anything about Pyro. But when you parachute into the middle I guess that is what I should expect. :rolleyes:
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VWE FYI Pyro's main job is researching this stuff.
So if somehow you know more then him you'll have to prove it with some concrete evidence and then state your sources so he can check them with his.
An uppity attitude will get you nowhere.
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Pyro said:
You are incorrect. The .50s on the Spit are always mounted on the inboard. If the .30s are mounted instead of the .50s, the 20mm is mounted in the inboard position and the outboard position is faired over.
How would this apply to the picture you posted?
Could it posibly mean the picture you posted, the one with the "20mm mounted on the inboard position and the outboard position faired over" could be how it was done with .303's installed? ...as Pyro stated.
Then Pyro said:Since either armament package is allowed in our Spit, it is the .50 cal installation that displays correctly. If you really want to make a technical nitpick, it's the 20mm position should be moved inboard when you choose the 30cal package, but the .50 cal position is where it should be.
Yet you still trudge on saying that the .50 cal is displayed wrong. Pyro admits that the .303 is wrong... but you still insist the .50 is wrong.
AKDejaVu
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First, in responce to Pyro, you referred back to your original post, stating that Pyro is, in your opinion, incorrect. Then you state that you have "more knowledge than people who just read in books and look at pictures" which was in responce to DejaVu. However, since DejaVu gave no opinion of his own and was just pointing to Pyro's post, can only be directed at Pyro.
That's how I read it. I'm terribly sorry for my "assumptions" and in the future will cease to try and infer things from what people write, and will instead consult Ms. Cleo so that I know exactly what they're thinking. For now, how can I make it better? I'd really like to try...should I send Animal over in a tutu?
SOB
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What pyro is stating
.50 cal is always mounted on the inboard
.20mm is outboard with .50s but with .303s the 20mm goes to the inboard and the 303s are farther out on the wings.
in the picture however, it shows the .50 outboard of a mounted 20mm, but i think what pyro also says is that the 20 could be moved to that covered fairing if .50 were mounted instead of 303s?
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bah! who cares about .50's and .303's i want 4 * 20mm's. :eek:
post those pix skurj. :D
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http://www.cavanaughflightmuseum.com I did the web site as well as took all but the new pictures of the P-47. I volunteered my time, over 3,000 hours in about 4.5 years. The picture is of a Mk.VIII and its installation is 2 20mm inboard and 4 .303 outboard total for the aircraft not on each side. That particular airframe originally came with the 2 20mm and 2 .50 with the 20's on the inside and the .50's on the outside though it was converted to 4 .303's after removing the .50's... that aircraft served in Burma in 1944 and wears its original colors except the original paint was flat not gloss. I have over a thousand pictures of those aircraft that I took over the years as well as several of a Mk.IX going through rebuild with the wing in a jig and the 20mm mounted inboard and the .50's outboard. (Now of course this is a Bristish aircraft so they could have started producing aircraft on Monday with the 20mm's outboard and by Friday be finishing the week by installing them on the inboard. ;) )
AW had one of there Con's in Dallas at the old Harvey Hotel a couple of years ago and when they came over to the museum I opened up the Mig-17 and let everyone climb in and get a feel for it as well as get there picture taken in it.
I no longer volunteer my time there I have moved on to other things. But I still know many people in the warbird comunity as well as continue to do reaserch through archives when asked.
So yes I do have first hand knowledge of the armament configuration being slightly different than depicted here, so started this thread. I just didn't expect to get jumped on like I was flying an Ar-234 through a fur ball. :D
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Hmmm... since there was a lot of field modification of these things, don't you think that it is at all possible that there could be Spits that have the guns reversed from what the various sources state was the norm?
Oh well, I guess this whole thing is just another incident of what I have started calling the "Dogma of Janes."
-math
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lol math
S! vwe, if you remember most of those at the AH con went to the museum this past october.
(http://www.matthoffman.cc/bb/jogeepics/museum2.jpg)
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I see two photos. One with the 20mm inboard and one with it outboard. I read a reply form pyro that explains both occurances and both photos support that.
I read something from someone else that only supports one of the photos and not the other.
I wonder who I'd put my money on in this situation.
AKDejaVu
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So... when is 1.09 going to be released? Now that everyone is looking at this thread!:D 2 weeks?!
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Ok ok, just need to ask something here.
I know it maybe stupid question but I thought SNAFU stands for Situation Normal All F#@$# UP.
If that is the case, then Visual Snafu to me amkes no sense, call me a brit and pick my nose but isn't it meant to be Usual Snafu?
Kit
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Yes Moose, that is the most authentically restored B-25 in flyable condition. Though it has not flown in a couple of years nor will it be anytime soon. Jim Cavanaugh has stuck to his word in that he would only fly it for 2 years after its restoration. That's an example of an aircraft that is too historically valuable to continue to fly. Black 6, the Bf-109G2 that was the most original flyable 109 should have been taken off flying status long before its accident.
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Oh, and why is everyone lookin at that pony?! Hmmm Moose?
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"So yes I do have first hand knowledge of the armament configuration being slightly different than depicted here, so started this thread. I just didn't expect to get jumped on like I was flying an Ar-234 through a fur ball.
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But you see you landed here being the very interesting combination of incorrect and inpolite. You touted off a bunch of nonsence and insulted people while you did it. Nice troll technique but hardly the way to garner respect if that is what you are after. No matter how long you have spent sitting on or walking around or polishing spitfires, you dont know the fundimental characteristic of E wing spits that Pyro corrected you on. When there is a 50 Cal it is mounted in board of the 20mm. When there is no 50, the 20mm is typically mounted inboard..
Could there be variations..yes but the standard case is what Pyro implemented in AH. And your nit pick is incorrect. So your store of credibility is depleted in a poor cause, which judging by the resume you posted for us, is important to you.
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Vwe your so close why dont you just go and present this info to Pyro in person if you have the time or im sure Pyro doesnt mind haveing to go to a very good WWII Museum.
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Spits are for dweebs.
ra
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Shane
Sorry man I can't scan these images BUT, there are several in:
Spitfire, A complete fighting history, by Alfred Price
ISBN 1 85648 015 1
Has photos of Spit VC's Seafire IIc's and MK VIII's with 4 20's (all wartime photos)
SKurj
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Hey Pongo, lighten up... but thanks for your post. If ever I need the omnipotent arrogant point of view, I now know whom to ask. :eek:
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No prob ewe. Or you could save time and review your posts in this thread. Or did you want accurate and arrogant?
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Is the 4 20mm loadout option ever going to be added for the Spit V and Seafire?
If not, why not?
(Polite question)
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Head for cover!
I smell a troll!
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Spit 21's had 4*20mm standard.
*drool* spit21 *drool*
Spit's 14's also had 4*20mm optional aswell as the standard 2*20mm and 2*.50cal loadout.
Would be nice too see spitV 4*20mm loadout too. Oh yes, spitVC's had 4*20mm loadout *drool* 2,447 built too- oughta be modelled in AH.:D dunno how manyof the 2,447 VC's were 4 cannon armed tho- anyone have the numbers?
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Anyone else noticed the little mirror on top ? Where's the makeup box ? :D
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We already have a spitty with 4 20mm's... its called a Niki! :D