Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Technical Support => Topic started by: guttboy on March 11, 2002, 03:27:16 PM
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Hi Fellas,
Well it has come down to the fact my old computer's mother board has fried....sniff sniff.....
My question is what kind of computer should I get?
I was looking at the Dell 8200.
What are your thoughts on options for it?
I dont want to spend more than 1200 and wont need a monitor.
Any suggestions on configurations if I have a local shop make it? I dont want to spend more than 1200. I will be using this computer for Aces High...perhaps a first person shooter like half life...and surfing the net.
What OS should I get ...XP?
THanks in advance fellas....and all help is appreciated...im not that computer savvy so if you start using complex terminology please explain if you can. I have a monitor already.
THanks
TG12
TIGER Squadron Deputy CO
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Boooo hissss!!
Ok check your other thread for my thoughts.
Do not look to buy a particular computer (Dell Sony blah crap blah) +)
Visit your local stores get some price lists
SKurj
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No kidding. $1200.00 buck will build a very nice system. Heck,..$800.00 will build a really nice system, like;
1.8GHz Northwood P4
512MB DDR Ram
40GB HD
SBLive sound card
ATI Radeon 8500
52X CDROM
3/12" Floppy
10/100 Ethernet card
Keyboard
MS Intelli-Mouse
Just an example
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Skuzzy,
Where can I purchase that system..for example? What is the tech support that would go along with it. Thanks in advance.
TG12
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guttboy,..that system I described is my personal system. I built it, and as far as tech support goes,...well,...needing tech support means something is broken (in my book anyways) as such, I never need support because I build systems that just work.
NOTE: I did not put a thing in the list abou thte OS. Add another $200 to the price for XP. Oh, I did forget to mention the mid-tower case, 300W P4 approved power supply, and 3 case fans is included in the above list.
If you can use a screwdriver, you can build it yourself. If you go that route, here are some tips.
1) Do not over tighten the screws that hold the motherboard in place. They only need to be snug. Get all the screws started before tightening them.
2) Get some tie wraps and anchor the power supply cables to the motherboard to the chassis. Do not tighten this, just secure enough to keep the cables from hanging in the case. If you are attaching the cables to a metal rail in the chassis, go to Radio Shack and get a plastic spiral wrap or insulating tube to cover the metal brace.
3) Read the motherboard manual from front to back. Note all jumper locations and make sure they are set correctly.
4) When adding PCI peripherals, make sure to use slots that are not shared with other devices. Typically, there are 3 PCI slots that do not share interrupts with anything else. Sometimes there are only 2.
5) Make sure you use a static strap that is grounded well when working with the various electronic components.
6) Take your time. Do not get in a rush.
7) When plugging in the LED cables for the various front panel LED's, note that the black wire is ground. Most cases use multiple colors for the positive wire, but black is always the ground wire. You will see this marked in the motherboard manual for rach plug.
8) When running the Ultra 100 HD cable, do not run it in parallel with the secondary cable and do not fold the cable in a manner that would crease it.
9) Before putting the motherboard in the chassis, put the CPU in place as well as the RAM. Use the anti-static pad that came with the motherboard to insulate the motherboard from the table you lay the motherboard on to insert the RAM and CPU. The CPU will simply drop in place, do not push it in place. The CPU is keyed so it will only go in one way. The pins on the P4 478 are very easy to bend, so handle it with great care.
The RAM may need some force applied so be careful when pushing it in the sockets. They are keyed and will only go in one way, but do require some pressure.
That pretty much hits the highlights, as far as getting the hardware goes;
1) RAM prices are high right now (about double what they were a month ago), so you may want to wait for them to drop again. You can get the RAM at http://www.crucial.com. While you can find cheaper RAM, it is not advisable. Crucial/Micron RAM is about as good as you can get and worth the investment.
2) I would go with an Antec case and power supply. The Antec power supply is a tank. You can get more information about Antec at http://www.antec-inc.com. The cases can be purchased at many online shops for better prices than Antec sells them for.
3) Here are 2 very reputable online stores. You can get cheaper, but for a beginner I think these 2 will suffice. http://www.comp-u-plus.com and http://www.microx-press.com.
Okay, if you are not up to building it. I will do it for you. Let me know and I will get a formal quote for you, but it really is not that hard to build your own system.
One of the major advantages of building your own system, is you can upgrade it later on (i.e. add a bigger HD, faster CPU, more RAM....). The other advantage is, you are not stuck with some proprietary system that may not have the peripherals which work in all the various OS's available.
Hope that helps.
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guttboy seriously man, check your local retailers, you can likely find that system or one close to it near to you. A good relationship with a local retailer, even if you have to spend a little more, can save you grief in the long run.
Once you find a retailer and get some price lists, post them here and we will offer our opinions +)
Ask any friends with PC's how they find the local stores and if they can make any recommendations.
remember we aren't the ones spending the money man +)
Personally i recommend against ordering from a distance, if you ever have any technical issues where a component fails, you have to send it out and be without it for a period of time.
There have also been quite a few cases where the product delivered isn't what was expected.
My thots
SKurj
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Skurj,
In my experience unless you are going to build it yourself or at least upgrade it yourself, Dell is the best way to go IMO. I've had lots of good experiences with friends/relatives buying Dell, and lots of horror stories dealing with local shops. Sure, there is often a local shop that can do a great job, but honestly those shops are a small % of what's out there. There are more bad ones than good ones. I've found one in my area run by guys who know what they are doing that I trust to send my friends/relatives to, but if they are not going to be opening the box up themselves I just sent the to Dell... less problems. Any time there have been an issue with a Dell, it's been fixed within 24 hours in my experience and you won't likely get that from a local shop on a regular basis.
I've been in this business for a long time on both sides of the counter, so I think I've got a pretty good experience base that I draw from for my opinion for what that's worth.
If you've got the $ and want a high end gaming system, and you live in the US, you might try somebody like AlienWare as well. :)
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Yeah I agree Lephturn as far as referring those less knowledgeable to a place like Dell..
Though guttboy could take the leap now! +)
I think he would be grateful in the long run.
The biggest hurdle to building your own system is fear. It is MUCH simpler/safer than the majority realize (i don't mind that statistic with my chosen career field+)
From my experience its even difficult to put the things together wrong... reverse a cable .. so what? switch it and the system will work.
Read the instructions, pay attention to the wiring labels.
SKurj
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Guys :eek:
SOOO much terrific information here!!!!
Skuzzy, Skurj, and Lephturn....where do I start. Ok talking with some of the computer geniuses in my USAF squadron here in Albuquerque they have tossed around a couple of issues.
1) The local computer stores are good but if anything goes wrong it can take a least a week sometimes before they can get around to your system....(in my book this is bad).
2) Right now they are offering prices that are comparable to Dell.....included in the Dell price is the 3 year warranty that i can call em up and they are here in a day. That is a good thing.
3) I have a DELL Inspiron 8000 that I take on the road and really like the support I have gotten....(lost disks, they replaced no ? asked). Had trouble reformatting (talked me through on the phone). etc...so I do like DELL's support.
4)Fear is a factor...isnt there a show by that name...lol.....I would hate to spend all that dough on a board and a chip and WHAM...I bend a pin or shock it to death....lol.....
Ok so I am pretty sure that I wont go the assembly route...although with this SONY Vaio that is on the fritz I think I will take the plunge and tinker with that one!!!!!! New motivation after your posts.
What are some of the ?'s to ask the local guys when they are building the computer? Motherboards....guys I have no clue what is best, bad, etc......
My buddy says the pc800 RAM is the way to go right now and I dont need more than 256 for now (at least until the price drops).
Ok final ? for now....if I do go with DELL.....they are offering 2 video cards that I would be interested in; both are GEFORCE 3 cards with 64 meg RAM...One is the Ti200 and the other is the Ti500....big diff in price...why? Why should I spend more? Should I stick with the Ti200 and then wait for another card in the future?
I know that is long winded....thanks so much for the information guys!!! Believe me that it is helping me out when I say that.
THanks
Mike (TG12)
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Helping someone spend their money is fun!:D I moved out of albuquerque about a year ago, so I am pretty familiar with the shops there. I started building my own systems while I was there too. The problem with the shops is their prices are high and their inventory can be slim. If you are thinking of building, try to be patient, get your parts from good internet based outfits, and relax putting it together. If you are going to rape your old system for parts you can save some bucks, but make sure those parts will work on your new system. One great benefit of building your own system is you can easily upgrade the machine whereas a store machine usually has limited upgrade potential. As far as putting the system together, the hardest part is getting the cables connected to the motherboard (oh, and not breaking your cpu if you put your own heat sink on it), but they are labeled, so it really isnt hard. Putting the ram, drives, cards, etc is really easy. You want a cpu with fast system bus speed, good vid card, and the fastest proc u can afford.
good luck!
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oh, forgot: here are some good links for systems, u can price them out using their shopping baskets:
http://www.tccomputers.com -- a bit on pricey side, great support
http://www.tufshop.com -- i use these guys, good prices
http://www.pricewatch.com -- use this to find lowest price, but lowest price usually carries high shipping or heavy restock fees.
http://www.compuplus.com -- another good site.
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Originally posted by guttboy
What are some of the ?'s to ask the local guys when they are building the computer? Motherboards....guys I have no clue what is best, bad, etc......
The best thing to do if you are going to build yourself is to use us here and in the Hardware and Software forum to help you choose good parts. Or get the shop to suggest something, then bring the parts list here and we can critique their choices... which will tell you something about how good they are.
Originally posted by guttboy
My buddy says the pc800 RAM is the way to go right now and I dont need more than 256 for now (at least until the price drops).
IF you go with RDRAM, then PC800 will be fine and 256 will be enough. However, I would go with DDR SDRAM instead as it will get you 512 MB for a similar price, and be usable in other systems in the future, where RDRAM will NOT.
Originally posted by guttboy
Ok final ? for now....if I do go with DELL.....they are offering 2 video cards that I would be interested in; both are GEFORCE 3 cards with 64 meg RAM...One is the Ti200 and the other is the Ti500....big diff in price...why? Why should I spend more? Should I stick with the Ti200 and then wait for another card in the future?
I know that is long winded....thanks so much for the information guys!!! Believe me that it is helping me out when I say that.
THanks
Mike (TG12)
Well the Ti500 is basically just a faster version. I'd recommend the Ti200 based on value, it will play all your games just fine, and only be a bit slower than the Ti500.
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Ok on the DDR SDRAM.....If I get a computer with the PC800 RDRAM on it...can I switch to DDR SDRAM in the future? Im not sure if DELL offers the DDR SDRAM.
I think I am going to rape the old system and try to make something of it in the future.
As far as the shops here in ABQ.....they are very overpriced compared to a similar system from DELL. And I am also leary on the tech support.
SO for now I think I have dediced on the DELL 8200.....any suggestions for configurations....
THe 2.0 GHZ is actually the same price as the 1.9 GHZ when all is said and done....Now if I only understood the RAM issue....
Thanks......
Mike
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No RDRAM and DDR SDRAM are completely different, they use different slots and different physical types, so you can't switch between them. RDRAM is over-priced and proprietary, while DDR SDRAM is cheap in comparison and is the industry standard. Even Intel has dumped RDRAM for future chipsets.
Look at the same setup, but price out the 4400 series instead. That's basically a similar machine, but with the DDR SDRAM chipset instead of the RDRAM setup.
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Ok Guys....now its really confusing.....DELL is offering the 4400 for cheaper than the 8200....is the RAM the only difference...i.e. mother boards are the same....also should I go with the 256 on the DDR SDRAM and save the 200.00 in RAM costs ? Can I purchase this DDR SDRAM later and at a cheaper cost?....will I notice a difference with 256 and 512 for AH? Will I notice a difference in Framerate and Play in AH if I go with the RDRAM Same ammount?
THanks again....getting ready for the plunge today if possible...also I will be getting with you all in the future about raping my old sony vaio and rebuilding it.
THanks In advance
:)
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SORRY...another question on operating systems....they offer XP home and XP Pro......what is the difference.....I was thinking about linking my Dell laptop Inspiron 8000 and this one via a router so that I could share the cable modem and transfer data between the two systems....will regular home edition XP allow for that.....
Basically why should I spend the dough for XP Pro?
THanks
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[lunch break :o ] here is the lowdown on memory types. sdram runs at 133mhz. It can work ok, in fact my freebie system from work has it, but at 1.8gig the cpu does fine. DDR is about midway in the speed range, RDRAM runs a frequency of 400meg i think. Faster bus speeds are attained by moving two bits per cycle (ie double data rate) instead of one bit. The double rate is why you see things like 266 mhz bus speed. As for game play, the faster bus speeds (rdram being the fastest) tend to give you better game play. I just read a review in maxpc magazine about how much memory you can benefit from, and 256 meg is plenty right now. I eyeballed the systems you mentioned, the 8200 will do you better than the 4400. the mx vid cards are essentially bandwidth handicapped versions of the non mx versions of the card. I had a gforce 2 mx with my new system, it ran great except that i wasn't satisfied with the 32 bit frame rates so I ran in 16 it mode. I just replaced it with a geforce 3 (non mx) and the card kicks the game's arnold, runs great in full res 32 bit color. For full on game speed, get the 8200 with the pc800 memory, and if you can swing it, get the non mx version of the geforce cards (the mx version fill rates are less than half of the non mx card's rate).
If you would be happy with full res 16 bit (which is still very nice!) just opt for the gforce2 mx that is standard. Your frame rates will run at your monitor's max (like somewhere around 75 perhaps). You will even be able to fight in the smoke at a damaged field!
Your system will rock
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Bockko,
Lephturn was recommending the 4400 which uses the DDR SDRAM and he seems to think that is the better way to go as he indicates that INTEL is dumping the RDRAM chipset....can you shed some light on that? Now Im a bit confused on which way to go....:confused:
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guttboy,
Buy a DDR SDRAM based system, trust me. I've been doing this for a long long time, RDRAM while theoretically faster has only a tiny advantage in speed in reality, and I doubt you'd see any difference. RDRAM is more expensive and will not be supported in the future while DDR SDRAM is the defacto market standard, is much cheaper, and will be usable in future machines. Buy a DDR SDRAM based system (4400 series) with 256 Megs and you can always add another 256 MB later at a reasonable price.
As for XP Home vs. XP Pro, well both SHOULD do the internet connection sharing you want. However, XP Home isn't really designed to work well on a local area network environment. If you plan on having a few machines at your home that share files and such locally as well as connecting to the Internet, I recommend XP Pro... it's the "real" version of XP anyway. :)
And bokko while I'm sure you mean well, I can't recommend RDRAM to anyone. Also just FYI, DDR SDRAM runs at 133 MHZ but the DDR stands for "Double Data Rate", meaning it transfers data on both the rising and falling side of the clock cycle for an effective speed of 266 Mhz. RDRAM is also DDR I believe at 200 Mhz DDR, effectively 400 Mhz. Although RDRAM seems faster from a Mhz perspective, a combination of the CPU not needing any higher bandwidth to memory and latencies in the RDRAM system means that in real-life applications the difference in speed between the two would be very small. Add to that the fact that RDRAM is much more expensive and has no upgrade path, and I don't think anybody should choose an RDRAM based system at this time. :)
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BTW... it's better if you decide for yourself which version of XP is for you. Check this out:
http://www.microsoft.com/windowsxp/whichxp.asp
Personally, I'd go with Pro, but it's your call.
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Well Lephturn.....I REALLY appreciate the help!!!!
I spoke with a buddy of mine an hour ago at the squadron and he basically echoed what you had said.
I am going to go with the 4400, 256 DDR SDRAM, 2.0 Gig, 40 GIG HD, SB live card, and the GEFORCE 3 TI 200 with 64 on ram.
Well Im taking the plunge and ordering....
Thanks for ALLLL the help from everyone here......it has been invaluable!:D
Mike
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Lephturn is on target in that rdram is not utilized fully at current cpu speeds, however,next years upgrade? Recent benchmark tests indicate a performance differences are slim between rdram and ddr, so while I still thing rdram leaves growth room for upgrades, the ddr system is still going to run great. And lephturn, I do believe transfering data on the rising and falling timing signal = moving two bits per cycle...
nyway, with the geforce 3 card and that system you will be happy.
Good luck, out
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Missed that bit=part bokko... but anyway my point was to explain it to guttboy, not really argueing with you here. :) As for the "rdram leaves room for growth" part, here I disagree. The only way to "grow" into it would be to use the RDRAM in your next machine... and even Intel is dumping support for RDRAM so you won't be able to do that.
http://www.tech-report.com/reviews/2002q1/athlonxp-2100/index.x?pg=2
Here's a good test that highlights the difference between RDRAM and DDR Ram. Yep, RDRAM is a bit faster. However, it's not MUCH faster, we're talking a couple of % here in real applications. Be sure to ignore most of the weird synthetic benchmarks and focus on things like Serious Sam or other real applications. RDRAM is much more expensive, and not supported going into the future while DDR SDRAM is. What I mean is, lets say you upgrade to 512 MB DDR SDRAM in a few months, and then a year later you decide to sell that machine and get a new one. The chances that your extra 256 MB of RAM will be usable in your next machine are much greater with DDR SDRAM than they are with RDRAM. Hence why I think you should go with that.
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Hi guys,
what is the difference between a P4 willamette and a P4 Northwood? Also in a previous post someone reccommended upping the power from the power supply .05v to see if that helped the old system.....how do I do that.
I have a PCI/ISA Bios (P2B-AE) CMOS setup utility Award software.....I looked but couldnt see where I could manually up that voltage setting....am I looking in the right spot? I get to the setup util by hitting F2 when it boots.
THanks again....
Mike
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The best way to get bang for your bucks Intel way is to get a machine with northwood 1.6Ghz PIV and then overclock the sucker as high as it goes. It can go beyond 2.2 easy they say.
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Think I read at Tom's that the rdram is going to 533 this summer because the 2.5gig northwood gains ZERO due to memory bandwith...... the test they did with Samsung rd533 and a 2.5gig(I think) blew everything away by a fair margin.... also the northwoods run a lot cooler........
Wheres Bloom when we need him......
Everytime I see Lepturn post it reminds me of the Yogi Bera quote,
When you come to a fork in the road, take it.
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Wow gutboy, you got a lively post! Lots of good info here hehe (anyone here read maxpc?? sounds like it). I dunno if you ordered, but here is some direct aces high related info to help:
i have the 1.8 gig p4 using the sdram (slowest of the 3 memory types -- freebie from my job or i woulda gone with the ddr or rdram) with the geforce 3 ti 200. I get 75 frames per second in normal flight (my monitor max's out at 75, 1280x1024 resolution, 32 bit color). Around damaged fields with lots of planes and smoke I go down to about 30. If you get either the ddr or the rdram system and a cpu around 1.8 (1.6 is ok, 2.0 is way cool) you should do at least that good, more likely better because of the faster memory type. The gforce 3 ti500 is faster than the ti200, it has a bit more bandwidth and a slightly faster processing speed. The 200, which i have, works great, but it will get long in the tooth a bit sooner than the ti 500...the ti200 should work well and you save that 100 bucks or so for your future gforce4 ti200 or gforce 5ti200 hehe.
I am not fully certain if rdram is getting dumped by Intel. The processors coming down the pipe in the next few years are going to be FAST. They need lots memory bandwidth, and while I saw some info on future chipsets, I don't quite remember what the solution is. I do know Intel and Rambus kind of fixed their contract (hence Intel's release of its own DDR chipset) and are working on memory formats for future processors. Of course, Intel will do what's good for Intel. If RDRAM fails or can be outperformed, Intel will go with the better solution in the long run (not that i work for intel ahem ;) )
Later gutboy
[tip 'o the hat from a retired navy guy to an active airfoce guy]
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RDRAM is on the short path to death.
Intel dropping support for it is the worst indicator. Intel own (or owned) a share of RAMBUS, hence they propped it up for some time. Having Intel drop support is like waving a death certificate over RAMBUS.
Another issue with RDRAM is the yields are low and memory manufacturers hate the stuff. Apparently the spec is hard to hit and a lot of product ends up in the garbage. Word from the memory manufacturers is they are already winding down production, expect to see RDRAM go to critical levels of shortage and prices to escalate.
I've seen some roadmaps for top end stuff, and RDRAM ain't in there (like the IBM X series servers... ALL DDR-SDRAM).
As for the memory size, 256Mb is nice, but 512Mb is becoming the norm. I'd say if you got 256Mb now you'd be shopping for some more RAM in 3-6 months.
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lephturn , im thinking about hooking up a 71 L 82 sb 350 , to my puter will this increase speed and what carb and intake would you recommend?? if anything i can use it for a fan:D
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Tom's Hardware always hated Rambus until this interesting article. BTW I have a DDR Athalon machine.
http://www4.tomshardware.com/column/02q1/020215/index.html
DJ229
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For the street krazyhorse, Edelbrock Medium riser, and Holley 650 will do nicely. Replace the stock cam sprocket and chain with a good roller chain and steel gear.
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:)
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guttboy : You won't go wrong with Skuzzy building your pc .
I know you most likly don't know him but he does the ip for this game . He quoted you a great system if you would only listen .
I bought mine from a guy just like him , it's the way to go IMO . As a owner of two Dell's they are nice but over priced .
Listen to Skuzzy , unless you going to do it yourself ( as you said you wasn't ) .
enough said ,
spro
Skuzzy , that's a nice system for a damn good price .
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Airspro,
I have listened to Skuzzy and I really really appreciate him offering to build me a machine. The only problem is that I have spoken with alot of guys in my squadron...three of which build their own computers....they all recommended (for ME) to go with what would be the best tech support. I fly all over the world with the Air Force so if Skuzzy were to build me one and something happened...what would I do. Dell will come out and fix or replace it. They have never done me wrong with my laptop and I even had them work on it in Okinawa, Japan....key got stuck on the keyboard!
Skuzzy thanks for the offer.
Airspro I do listen to ALL the posts and really really appreciate all the help here.
Bockko! What did you do in the Navy. I flew AC-130s for 7 years and now fly MC-130s.....thanks for the frame rate "practical"
advice from a system that is running the game right now in a similar comparison....it would be cool to see more comparisons of framerates online.
Thanks again fellas.....
Mike
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No problem guttboy.
From all my years of experience with computers (I wish I knew as much about women as I do computers :D) I have to say rule number 1 about your computer system is:
#1 Do what is best for your situation, simply because you know your situation better than anyone.
guttboy
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Hey guttboy :) I was an electronics chief on FBM submarines. I made a run at converting to flying, but eyes let me down after getting my degree. I retired and moved to Alb in 96 to work at that plant in Rio Rancho (the reaal big one). Choose a system yet?
bockko
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Bockko,
I know exactally where you worked...how can you miss that plant...got my SUV at the Don Chalmers Ford Dealer there and won a 61 inch Sony TV there....lol...small world....
I did go with a computer purchase....I am going with the Dell 2.0 Gig with ddr sdram.......it fits my needs the best I think....
Hope all is well with you.....I gotta hit the rack now cuz its late and we didnt finish flying until like 0230 this morning....Im gonna hate the summer when we start taking off around 10 and 11 pm and landing around 3 and 4 am...THATS GONNA SUCK.....anyhow take care...where you living in CO?....My brother lives up in Vail.
Mike