Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DingHao2 on July 28, 2001, 12:31:00 PM
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It's main alt advantage is at 35k feet. Now whose going to take the time to get there? The 190 d-9 is a low-mid alt fighter. The 152 is a high alt fighter.
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Its 1/8th the beast the F4UC is, how about 5 points?
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Tis only 1/8th the beast of the chog @ 30000 ft.+
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So at strafe level it's a Chog?
Hmmm, never thought of that.
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Don't unperk it, but sure reduce it's cost.
At 15-20K it's still a good beast, I recall dogfighting one, he was runing the show, going in tatatata, going away, climbing ... coming back 4 min later ...tatatata ... runing/climbing.
All day long till finally he ran away for good, probably no ammo or fuel.
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Its currently used less than the C.202.
Really could use a high alt fighter for buff defense... other than that many fighters will chew the 152 up.
I'm for reducing the perk cost significantly... and am not too against unperking it all together.
AKDejaVu
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It is perked mostly because it was rare, rather than because of its performance.
Still, it had some great points. IMO, it is the best Axis diver (even better than the D-9). Excellent E retention (almost as P51 ;)). Takes ages for it to slow to level speed after a dive. Somewhat good turning ability, but P51B will chew it up in a knifefight down low.
Guns are pretty good, only low sight line reduces deflection shooting abilities.
Should stay perked, it was rare. I rather take up the D-9, wings stay attached in those pullouts. Ta 152c, on the other hand...nevermind, Focke wulf set is fairly well represented.
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i agree that it should stay perked but at a reduced price.
i think hitech not only perks things because o their ability but also due to how rare the plane was. if this is their perking scheme then they have to stick to it.
5pts seems cool.
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unperk it or make it worth 4 it is rarely used and not worth the 40 perkies now.
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I agree it's much too expensive.
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It should stay perked, but at a lower price, perhaps 10-20 points. I honestly dont want to see many of these planes every day, it would be very unrealistic for a WW2 oriented or whatever you wanna call it sim.
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40 pts. is pretty expensive for it's intended purpose, high alt buff interception.
how many people want to risk 40 pts. with the current buff guns, a lot of people just ignore buffs with the unperked planes as it is. and at typical MA fighting alts (below 15-10K) it's not a very special plane, sure it has a decent deck speed with wep(about 360 or so), but my pony is faster though.
i think it should be perked the same as the c-hog
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i dont think it should be unperked, but a low perkage (10 pts or so) would be in order imo
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at its current cost I could fly 152s till Thanksgiving...........
if anything adjust them up...... raise temp. I got almost 30 perks vulchin in g2 oneday.
If not just get rid of perks they are mostly useless...................... ........
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It shall be cheaper, 25 points seems to be ok. I have not seen A SINGLE ONE for a whole tour, it is a clear indication that perk price is wrong (or that I am blind, but I am not :)).
I think system of gradualy decreasing perk price will work good, if HTC afraid to make it too cheap. Bring its price 10 perks lower, and watch the result during the tour. If it will be still none of them in the air, take another 10 perks and so on.
I think it shall be some criteria to achive while adjusting perk points price. For example, if every 300th sortie will be a given perk plane sortie, it is ok.
Right now only hogc defenetly costs its perks, arado shall be 10 perks cheaper, tempest shall cost 50 perks and ta around 25.
IMO.
Fariz
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Alright you dweebs. You want to see some more Ta-152's?
I guess I have some perkies to blow.
And I don't mind taking the TA down low into a furball.
Feel better? :D
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Decreasing the price of the 152 when some players probably have well over 1500-2000 points? I mentioned before in another post I shot down 2 buffs defending a base and stopped yards off the end of the runway because of damage. What was the reward ? -38 points in otherwords there was absolutly nothing to show for my effort. Anyone who doesn't like wasting money in RL will more than likely not want to waste points here.
[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Professor Fate ]
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I honestly don't think you will see more Ta-152's in the arena until the price comes WAAAY down on them. I don't even think having them unperked would make a big difference to be honest. The D9 climbs faster up until 25k, and it is faster until between 20 and 25k as well (i just can't tell from those graphs, to be honest). The only advantage the Ta-152 has over the D9 is firepower, and if you really have to have 2x20 and 1x30- you can jump in a 109g10 and get 2x13mm as well. I believe the 109G10 turns better than the Ta152 as well, but I could be wrong here. The 109g10 is also faster than the ta152 until 25k, and climbs better until over 25k (it looks like).
I think the only reason HTC has to keep it perked is that it was rare historically (I think only 2 squads had them in WW2, again, I am no expert so I could be wrong here). If this is the case, then perking them is definately the right way to keep them as rare as they were during the war. If it isn't the case, there really is no reason to keep the Ta152 perked. At the very least, they should drop the cost so it is approaching the cost of the F4U-C (and what I hope the Niki will be at if they ever get around to perking it :D).
Don't unperk it, but sure reduce it's cost.
At 15-20K it's still a good beast, I recall dogfighting one, he was runing the show, going in tatatata, going away, climbing ... coming back 4 min later ...tatatata ... runing/climbing.
All day long till finally he ran away for good, probably no ammo or fuel.
Frenchy- you can do the exact same thing in the 109G10, or the 190D9. Hell, you can do the exact same thing in the P51, or any multitude of planes if you start off with an altitude advantage.
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unperk everything. the perk system is idiotic. Add an RPS or "area" arena and get rid of it. The ta is a late war plane... let it have a few days at the end of the tour with all the other late war planes, current and future.
lazs
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I wouldn't mind seeing a Rolling Plane Set- but that is mainly because the German planes are fairly well represented throughout the spectrum, they'd only need to add a 109E and there would be a German plane covering 1939-1945. There aren't any British planes that go back farther than (what year? hehe). The Americans weren't even IN the war before 1941 (and say 1943 in Europe)- what about all the people that like to fly P51s and other American planes. We don't have any early Russian planes (1943 is the earliest, with the La5 I believe), nor do we have any early Japanese planes (again, I think the Zeke we have is 1943?).
Also- a RPS would play merry hell with the "system" we have in the arena right now. People wouldn't be able to fly the Spit9, Niki, or La7 for at least half the month, and while I'm all for more variety, I'm not sure if the "mandatory" variety of the RPS is the right way to do it.
I'd be very interested in seeing a map that was divided into early and late war though, I think that would be very interesting. Don't know how well it would work though. I'm really beginning to think that there is no point in trying to "enforce" variety.
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There aren't any British planes that go back farther than (what year? hehe).
Also- a RPS would play merry hell with the "system" we have in the arena right now. People wouldn't be able to fly the Spit9, Niki, or La7 for at least half the month, and while I'm all for more variety, I'm not sure if the "mandatory" variety of the RPS is the right way to do it.
You seem to have a couple of misconceptions about the Spit.
The AH Spit V is a typical Spit Vc, from mid to late 41. It doesn't have the 4 cannon option that many Spit Vs had.
The AH Spit IX is the basic F version from June 42. It also has an incorrect armament option, the E wing with 50 cal Brownings didn't come about till much later, and never on a Spit IX with Merlin 61. The AH Spit IX has roughly the correct speeds for a mid 42 Spit, but a worse climb rate.
From what I have seen, the La-7 and N1k2 were both mid-late 44, so how you can classify them with a 1942 Spit in a rolling plane set I don't know.
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Ah, forgive my ignorance Nashwan. I was under the impression that the Spit9 we had was a 1943 plane, but I wasn't sure, so i asked. But, if we went from a Rolling Plane Set, the war lasted from 1939 until 1945. 1943 is towards the middle, but after the exact middle. That is what I meant when I said "people could not fly the Spit9". I know the La7 and Niki are 1944 planes- so I guess they STILL couldn't fly those for half the month.
So, in a 6 year war, the difference between a 1943 plane, and a 1944 plane isn't all that great, IMO. You'd be able to fly the Spit a few days before La7 and Niki, but you wouldn't be able to fly it for around half the month. I guess you could fly the SpitV instead, I don't know the difference anyway.
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Maps are changing after resets so why not planesets ?
1939-40, reset, 1941-42, reset, 1943-44, reset, All planes etc...
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I like a well done RPS. I like it a lot! However I think the bottom line is that the WB experience of an RPS means noticeably less customers in the MA (some guys just love their Mustangs or Hellcats or whatever).
I don't think the perk system is a particularly good compromise either. I guess everybody needs to sign up 2 friends so we can have 3 full MAs :). Then I could be happy with my P-40E in my RPS MA and Mr-TA-152 could fly his ride 24/7 in the all-planes-all-the-time MA.
Sorry, I guess I just got consumed by wishful thinking for a moment. But honestly, there is no solution to this problem except for a big enough player base to support several MA type arenas simultaneously.
Hooligan
PS With the current arena setup I really doubt that the Ta-152 will ever be unperked. I don't think HTC wants to see a plane that saw such limited production and use make other than rare appearances in the MA.
[ 07-29-2001: Message edited by: Hooligan ]
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The differnce between a 1942 plane and a 1944 plane is great though. About the only fighters in AH at the moment that would be out before the Spit IX in an RPS would be the SpitV, 202, 109F4, and possibly the 109G2.
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RPS- rolling perk set.
Everything available at all times, cost goes down as the rolling perk set progresses.
May or may not work, just an idea.
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Originally posted by Nashwan:
The differnce between a 1942 plane and a 1944 plane is great though. About the only fighters in AH at the moment that would be out before the Spit IX in an RPS would be the SpitV, 202, 109F4, and possibly the 109G2.
And the Fw190A5 (or a Fw190A4, as you wish)
:)
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In AH, 109G-10 with the big guns is better for intercepting buffs than the 152. It climbs faster, performs well enough, and packs a slightly better punch having the MG's. The 152 doesn't need perked. In fact, unperking it could reduce the 30k+ buffs. Just make it impossible to get perks with it.
<S>IC
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And the Fw190A5 (or a Fw190A4, as you wish)
No, the A4 would be a contempoay of the Spit F IX, but the A5 didn't come out until 43, which is about the same time the Spit IX LF came out.
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Keep it perked but at a much reduced rate, say equivalent or less than current CHog perk points. It certainly does NOT have the impact on the MA as the CHog does so why should it cost more? You just don't see many buffs above 20k so why grab a Ta152 when you can just as easily get a N1K or a 109G10 to kill it at no points risked?
I think the Perk System should be more based on the impact to the arena than on how rare the airplane was... but I ramble on....
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This has gone way off topic, but here is a scary part of the RPS:
According to my info the La-7 is available from June, 1943 on.
My sorce could be in error. If so, I would appriciate the correct information.
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about date on la7 can be corect ar around but defimitely La7 is not a stable fighter like in AH !
nad the yak roll is out of realizm
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Just a bump, thats all. La7 that was slightly faster but about 3-4,000 feet lower handed me my bellybutton in the Ta-152. I was going 475 at the merge (he was d4.5 away when I decided to engage, he was behind me and headed towards me). I pulled up about 1k infront to rope him into an easy kill.. I got the surprise of my life and he climbed past me and roped ME lol. He didnt get the kill there, he had to chase me a little first.
So, I see the La7 as the 2nd most formidable plane in the arena (N1K2 is first of course). On the deck (or lets say under 10k, where all the action happens), the La7 has a faster top speed, accelerates faster, turns better, rolls just as quickly (if not faster), and climbs faster. The only thing the Ta152 has on the La7 is firepower, which doesn't mean a damn thing if you can't bring it to bear.
The next closest example would be the C-Hog, which is similar in speed to the Ta-152, rolls faster, turns better, probably climbs slightly worse, dives faster, and probably accelerates about the same. The guns on the C-Hog decimate the guns on the Ta-152 easily, and are more easily brought to bear to boot.
WHY does the Ta-152 cost 40 points to fly? Granted, I enjoy flying it, and I take it up to 25-30K to look for people to bounce, but I can do that in a 109G10 or a 190D9 just as effectively, and probably MORE effectively.
You want to perk it because of it's performance, you are out of your mind. I'll accept perking it because it had low numbers IRL, but if I remember correctly so did the N1K2, and the C-Hog. I don't even have to mention that the C-hog probably sees 100 times the use that the Ta-152 does, even perked as it is. The N1K2 sees probably 1,000 times the use of the Ta152. Were there 1,000 times more N1K2's built than Ta152's in real life? Heck, maybe there were, I don't know.
I think the Ta-152 should be unperked, or at least reduced to 8 points like the C-Hog.
EDIT- I'm sorry, after checking the "scores" pages- this tour the C-Hog only had 37.75 times as many kills as the Ta152. The N1K2 only had 98.66 times as many kills. I apoligize for the exageration. On a happier note, I personally accounted for almost 4% of the total Ta152 kills this tour.
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
[ 07-31-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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I got a kill in a Ta152 once :D
er... on second thought the ack actually shot it down, I just happened to be nearby at the time and got the kill credit... never mind
[ 08-01-2001: Message edited by: SpitLead ]
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Wrecked on deadsticking it after a B17 hit the radiator with a lucky ping. Unperk the plane. I'll continue to post here, to keep this at the top of the list. I'll also continue to fly it, even though something tells me my perk points won't last long flying it. Gonna fly the Ta152 till I run outta perk points. And every single time I lose one, I'll post a nice little note here :cool: .
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Oh, and as an addendum- I looked up a page that someone posted a link to that has some neat stuff. The link is as follows-
Aircraft of the World Webpage (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/)
According to this source, only 150 Ta-152's were made. According to the same source, only 60 + "a handful" of N1K2 Shidens were produced... Also according to the same source, production of the C-Hog was limited to 200 units- I don't think a perk value of 8 or under would be out of the ordinary for the Ta-152.
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Originally posted by Staga:
Maps are changing after resets so why not planesets ?
1939-40, reset, 1941-42, reset, 1943-44, reset, All planes etc...
brilliant!
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Lost 40 points to a disco.
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Lost another 40 to another disco. Only two in 1 hour, not to bad I guess. :mad:
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minus - I haven't got a clue what you are trying to say.
Karnak - the first La-7 was received by an operational unit around May 1944.
Urchin - if you're trying to get either the La-7 perked or the Ta-152 unperked by comparing relative flight characteristics - contemplate these little facts.
Total Production in WW2:
Ta-152 = 150
La-7 = 3977
That is one reason why the La-7 is unperked and the Ta-152 is not.
Perhaps the cost should be reduced - 20 perks seems about right.
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Guys, a well flow Ta kicks serious ass.
As a bomber intereptor, it's by far the best we have.
At alt it reains a good deal of e and it's the *best* diver in the game up there. That makes it possible to make 3-4 slashing attacks when you could only do 1-2 in 109 or other planes. With the BFG in the nose, 2 passes is usually enough.
Down low, it handles a lot like a P-51 with Big Arsed Wings. Yes, it is slower down low, but in the hands of a competent pilot it can stay on a heavy N1K if you work it some.
Big wings are unfortunately a bit fragile and easy to hit.
But it's a good plane. A very good plane.
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Good points, Santa,
but it's a hardly used plane, is it?
I see a lot of suggestions get the thumbs down (from us, don't know about HTC) with the logic that states "nice idea, but the manhours would be better spent on new planes".
Which on the surface makes sense, but not if that new plane doesn't get used. If all that effort goes into a plane that just sits on the shelf, then I think the effort would be better spent on photorealistic cokpits (for example).
And as it is, the Ta just isn't seeing any real use.
(oh, and fix the wing tips, the plane was rated at more than +4G's, I'm sure)
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Do an experiment... Unperk it. If it causes problems... perk it. Pretty simple to me it seems.
xBAT
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I didn't know that a plane's rarity had anything to do with perk points. Where do people come up with that? Anywhere HTC has ever mentioned this?
BgMAW
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Biggun:
I think the perk system is supposed to do the following (and possibly more) things:
1) Limit availability of planes which would otherwise "overpopulate" the arena (i.e. the F4U-1C).
2) Allow limited MA presence for rare/exotic and/or extremely powerful aircraft (i.e. the Ta-152 and Tempest).
I can't ever remember Pyro stating exactly what their goals for the perk system were, and undoubtedly those goals will change over time. For anybody who believes that the perk system is only in place to limit "overpopular" aircraft then the fact that the Ta-152 remains perked (and expensively so) is proof that there is more to the equation. It's pretty naive to think that HTC has not noticed that the Ta-152 is not the MA uberplane that the Tempest is. Thus, there must be other reasons besides performance alone that makes it a perk plane.
Perhaps Pyro will speak up and clarify HTC's position someday.
Hooligan
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Sorry that it been so long since my last post. I'm now sitting in the beach house with a HORRIBLE sunburn, and I'm using ny cousins laptop.
StSanta- I disagree that the Ta-152 is the "best" bomber interceptor. In my opinion, the 109G10 is at least as good, and probably better. The G10 climbs much faster, and with the 30mm with gondolas, it has the same guns (less ammo), plus 2x13mm MGs, which can do more damage than no MGs at all. Plus, the G10 doesn't cost 40 points to fly, which is all to easily lost with a lucky burst of buff .50s. Or a disconnect.
Dowding- I have never said I am trying to get the la7 perked. I was merely pointing out the fact that, even UNPERKED, it can hand a Ta-152 its ass. That is one reason I don't believe that the 152 would even see moderate usage in the MA- it is FAR from being the best "runstang" type plane in the game. The N1K2 had under 100 units produced, at least according to the source I found (if you have different data please post it), and it is by far the most used plane in the MA. The F4U-1C, with a production run of 200 aircraft, was far and AWAY the most used plane before it was moderately perked. It wasn't perked because of its limited production status, it was perked because EVERYONE USED IT. The Ta-152 had a production "run" as it were of somewhere around 150 planes- yet it is perked to a cost of 40 points. The question I have is WHY? It isn't because of MA performance, and apparently it isn't because of the small number produced, so why pick the TA-152 to perk out of existance?
EIDT- Also, I'd like to see HTC do something about the loss of perkies on disconnects- my "offical" record in the Ta-152 this tour is 5 and 0- but I've lost 120 flying it so far (one wipeout on a deadstick landing, and 2 disconnects in an hour).
[ 08-06-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Urchin:
I'm am afraid your wish concerning retention of perk points during disconnect may not be feasable. Consider the following:
1) Somebody is flying their Ta-152 and the net burbs so they disconnect.
2) Somebody is flying their Ta-152 and spot an enemy La-7 with such an advantageous position that they feel they cannot survive, so they yank their net cable and cause a disconnect to save their perk points.
If you can come up with an algorithm that will reliably allow HTC to tell the difference between an inadvertant disconnect and a intentional one then maybe you can convince them to implement it.
As it is, the current policy is at least as fair as is possible. Everyone suffers from disconnects so everyone runs a certain amount of risk.
Hooligan
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Yea, good point there. I foolishly assumed that since I am an honest person other people are to. This is a stupid assumption in real life, and an even dumber one on the internet. I'd still wish there was a way to tell between the intentional disconnects, and the unintentional ones that seem to have been plaguing AH for the past few weeks.
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Just didn't want this thread to go to waste, as I am now back from vacation and still trying to fly the Ta-152. Died twice today, but at least I didn't get disco'd.
First time was a doozy- I was around p14 at 20k or so, in a slight dive. Spot a friendly with a Dora and a Spit on his tail, I dive down to help. I actually got going to fast and the spit shot him down as I looped around to get on the Doras tail (who has looped around to get on my countrymans tail). Dora tried to do a gentle turn to the right, obviously leading me to the Spit. I followed, because I knew if I tried to run the Dora would be all over me (since the TA-152 isnt FASTER than a Dora until 25k, and we were on the deck). Pulled within d250 of the Dora, let go with 2 short bursts. First burst hit, with on apparent effect, 2nd burst also hit with no apparent effect, but the Dora augered. Obviously, at least one burst had some effect. Blew most of my speed pulling lead on the Dora, look back and there is a Spit sitting at d400 spraying those hizookas for all he is worth. Tried to roll out of the way, ended up exploding as he wasnt fooled by the manuever.
2nd death was a classic. After reupping and heading back to p14, I ran into the Dora again. He was chasing another countrymate of mine around until I dove in, at which point we began chasing HIM around. He dove for a Osty that was parked near our base, I pulled off and he went after me. SOB blew him away. The Osty later ate 2 bombs, but I had nothing to do with that. Started climbing, got up to 15k or so, and I spot a co-alt dot. Since I had nailed a Lanc going for our fleet a little earlier, I figured it was a Lanc. Nope, it was a b17. I foolishly went for the HO, going about 450 (for a combined speed of 650 or so more than likely). B17 blew me up with the greatest of ease. I never got in range for a shot. OH, btw, no, I wasnt headed straight for him either, I was diving below him, and was going to pull up and try to gun down his belly as I passed. Evidentally the HO is not a good tactic when hunting buffs, I'll stick to my usual 3-9 passes. It is sort of curious that the Germans used the Head on attack so often, and even against whole formations of B17s... they must have been REALLY stupid. No wonder they lost the war (tongue firmly in cheek).
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Oh, and with 11 of 50 Ta152 kills... I have 20% of the kills in the bird by myself this tour... impressive, isnt it?
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Lastly, I want to paste an email I sent to HTC about this- havent gotten an answer back yet though. Only sent it about 2 weeks ago, so I'm not to dejected yet. You guys tell me whatcha think.
""Hi, I go by Urchin in your great game. I fly a little bit of everything ;-), but mostly Luftwaffe planes, because they are so good looking ;-). I was wondering about the perk value of the Ta-152, why is it so high? Is it because of its performance, or because of its rarity in real life?
Just in case, I sort of prepared "arguments" for lowering the perk value in either case.
If you have perked it because of its percieved performance in the Main Arena, and the impact it would have, I feel that even 40 points is far to large a value. I'd say 90% of all the fights in the MA take place under 10,000 feet. Under 10,000 feet, the Ta-152 isn't even as good as a 109G10 or a 190D9. It is slower than both of those planes, climbs slower than both of those planes, rolls slightly better than the 109, but worse than the 190, and turns worse than both of the planes (all of this is of course based on personal experience). Furthermore, the 109G10 and 190D9 are inferior to a number of planes at low level, so it isn't even likely that a totally unperked Ta-152 would see more action than either of those planes (at least not in the long run, if it were unperked people might fly it for a while just to fly it).
If the Ta-152 is perked because of its rarity in real life, then surely the C-Hog deserves to be perked at around 35 points, and the Niki at around 70. The only source I have that I can give you a link to is this - http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/ (http://www.csd.uwo.ca/~pettypi/elevon/baugher_other/)
It has listings for the amount of planes produced for a lot of different planes (it is a neat page ;-)). According to the webpage, there were somewhat more (not many more) than 150 Ta-152s that actually "went to the front" as it were. The production of the F4U-1C was limited to 200 planes, and production of the N1K2 Shiden was limited to 60+ "a handful", before the factories were destroyed (and the lack of raw materials played a role in the number produced as well). As you know, the N1K2 is far and away the most used plane in the arena right now, with 19,732 kills last tour. The F4U-1C had 7,541 kills. The Ta-152 had 200 kills. Even the C.202 had 216 kills, plus it was flown at least 5 times as often (101 deaths for the Ta-152 vs. 561 deaths for the C.202). Even the C-47 had more kills than the Ta-152, which is amusing actually ;-).
I think an appropriate value for the Ta-152 would be somewhere in the area of 6-10 points- but I also think that the ENY value on it should be lowered so that it is possible to earn perk points in it on an average sortie so that when you die, or are forced to crashland you don't lose a whole ton of perk points. I really believe that even unperked you would not see a tremendous upsurge in the use of the Ta-152, but hopefully you might see a few flying out there. I have seen one (not counting the ones that I flew) in my 4 months of flying AH now.
Anyway, you seem to be very open to customer feedback as a company, which is an EXCELLENT thing, in my opinion. I hope that you will at least take my arguments under consideration, and it would be great to hear from you regarding this issue. Thanks in advance, and looking forward to hearing from you.
Urchin""
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My personal opinion is that the ta152 should be perked, but the cost should be less. I'd say 15 - 20 points.
I personally like the perk system, it is certainly limiting the perk planes usage so that they are very rare. On the other hand I do think the points needed are a little high. The Ar234 should be the most expensive perk plane in the current set (35 - 40), the ta152 and tempest should both be about 15 points, and the c hog about 5. When we get the me262 next version it should probably be about 100 - 150 pts.
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I agree with Bloom25, the Ta152H-1 should be about 15 perk points.
I've flown it and it is a pretty sweet fighter, but not an arena dominator. You're underselling its roll rate BTW.
BTW,
Your N1K2-J number is off as is your Ta152H-1 numbers. No combining all versions of Ta152 while singling out the N1K2-J version of the N1K series.
N1K2-J production: Naruo delivered 362 N1K2-Js and Himeji delivered 44 N1K2-Js for a total production of 406 N1K2-Js delivered. Quite a few more than 60.
Ta152H-1 production: 10 Ta152H-1s are confirmed to have been delivered, 150 Ta152H-1s are reputed to have been built before the Russians occupied the Cottbus works.
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Urchin, nice, story?
Your confusing how effective a 152 is by using it like it is a Spitfire or something.
I (Dora) leveled out as you came in with a huge jump, and fed you to a Spit deck level.
I did a brief speed bleed move when you closed in, and tried to stay alive long enough as the Spit closed in on you.
You stuck to me with no regard to the Spit, bleeding all your speed. I was killed, and 1 second later of course, the Spit killed you as you were dragged to almost stall speed in a 152.?
You were so excited you made a open channel comment, and a private message to me as well.
All while you lost 70 points just for a deck level jump and drag to Spitty death?
Terrible. So what was your point?
I think the perk price is high for the 152 if it is based sure on plane ability. Im guessing it's rather for how rare the plane was. Certainly, as all late war stuff was rare, it would usually be pretty good in the ability factor due to obvious technology advancments.
The way you flew it was simply, silly. Don't tell those stories in defence of it's perk points, really.
Oh, as for story 2 you told, that was SOB that kilt me with his Spit. After I drug him and you over a FLAK 3 times within 100yrds, that was too busy shooting the base to care for the 3 6 calls i gave him, SOB got me.
That was the second time you had a 152 on the deck. Keep it high, you'll do better.
[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Karnak- I only took the numbers off the site that I gave the link to in the email. The exact line for the Ta-152H production was this one.
Approximately 150 Ta 1252H-1 fighters were manufactured between January 1, 1945 and the final abandoning of production with the arrival of Soviet forces at the Cottbus assembly plant.
Where did you get your numbers for the production of both the Ta-152H and the N1k2 Shiden? Oh, and BTW, I wasn't combining all the types of the Ta-152, as you can see from the line above that was only the H version. The Ta-152B was not included in that count. Also- that source alleges that the Ta-152H was "planned" with 1x30mm,2x20mm, and another 2x20mm in the upper nose, what happened to the last pair? They weren't delievered like that, I wonder what happened with that?
Urchin, nice, story?
Your confusing how effective a 152 is by using it like it is a Spitfire or something.
I (Dora) leveled out as you came in with a huge jump, and fed you to a Spit deck level.
Actually Creamo, the Spit was fighting already, YOU dove in to help gangbang, and I dove in after you. You may have been fixated on my countryman, but I was back there trying to slow down enough to get into the fight. Unfortunately, he got shot down before you, or I got in the fight.
I did a brief speed bleed move when you closed in, and tried to stay alive long enough as the Spit closed in on you.
You stuck to me with no regard to the Spit, bleeding all your speed. I was killed, and 1 second later of course, the Spit killed you as you were dragged to almost stall speed in a 152.?
Actually, some of this is almost accurate. I wasn't even looking at the spit. That much is true. However, I didn't "bleed all my speed", and stall speed for a Ta-152 isn't anywhere near 300mph, I hope. But, please tell me what you, the master of everything ACM would have done in the situation? I'll even break it down for you as I saw it. My first decision- Do I help a countryman that is in danger? My choice, YES. Obviously a decision you would disagree with. Second choice- Countryman has been shot down, I am D400 on the tail of a plane that is faster than I am, but with less E. There is a Spitfire that is going quite slow, after just finishing a fight. What do I do? I obviously chose to stay engaged with you, in the hopes that I could knock you down and then deal with the spit. Again, I assume you would have run away? I'll tell you why that is a poor decision, if you can't figure it out. *HINT- check the airspeed charts for the Ta-152 and the Fw-190D*.
You were so excited you made a open channel comment, and a private message to me as well.
All while you lost 70 points just for a deck level jump and drag to Spitty death?
Terrible. So what was your point?
This is pretty much drivel, but it makes a nice neat section of its own.
I think the perk price is high for the 152 if it is based sure on plane ability.
At least we agree on something.
Im guessing it's rather for how rare the plane was. Certainly, as all late war stuff was rare, it would usually be pretty good in the ability factor due to obvious technology advancments.
My only real argument would be - F4U-1C. 200 units PRODUCED. Perk cost originally nothing, perked to 8 points now. Don't think anyone would disagree that this plane still flies in the MA at 8 points. TA-152H. 150 units produced. Perk cost originally? It was higher than it is now, at 40. The C-47 had more kills last tour.
The way you flew it was simply, silly. Don't tell those stories in defence of it's perk points, really.
Well, I killed you flying that way, so whats the way that you flew called? And by the way, I'm going to tell any story I want to tell, on whatever subject I feel like.
Oh, as for story 2 you told, that was SOB that kilt me with his Spit. After I drug him and you over a FLAK 3 times within 100yrds, that was too busy shooting the base to care for the 3 6 calls i gave him, SOB got me.
I know that was SOB that got you. Too bad about the Flak not paying any attention to you, but you forced me to break off just by flying over it. Oh yea, and whats your point here?
That was the second time you had a 152 on the deck. Keep it high, you'll do better.
Oh, i do OK in it now. So far I am 11-2 in it, because I AM fairly careful. Take a note that one of my deaths was actually at reasonably high alt (for the MA), and happened while I was attempting to intercept a B-17. I.E. fly the airplane the way "it was meant to be flown"- although why anyone would risk 40 points when 1 solid burst from any buff will kill you, I don't know. Of course, I do it still.
[/b]
[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Oh, I'm 11 and 3 now. Bounced a B17 on his bomb run, he got me, go figure. Dove straight down towards him, pinged a wing. Pulled up outof the dive a little hard I guess, because I ended up in front of him (like i wanted), but not headed back up. Somehow managed to pull off a 350 mph stall, plane just hung there in front of the b17, couldn't move ailerons or elevator. B17 shot the tail off after that. Starting to actually wonder why I'm bothering. Going to change my sig to "remove the Ta-152 from Aces High".. maybe they can give the Spit or N1K2 a new paintjob or something.
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Urchin,
I used two sources for each number, the Ta152H-1 numbers seem less reliable.
I got numbers for both from Fighting Aircraft of World War II by Bill Gunston. This book quotes 406 for the N1K2-J production and "but only ten of the H sub-type had flown when the war ended. Altogether 20,051 Fw 190s were delivered, plus a small number of Ta 152s (67, excluding development aircraft)." for the Ta152H-1. I have seen numbers like those used on this BB for the total Ta152 production as well.
I have found the info on this site to be mostly accurate, here is their N1K2-J page: WW2 Warbirds N1K2-J (http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/kanin1k2j.html)
This site lists the N1K2-J total production at 415.
I used "The History of German Aviation, KURT TANK: FOCKE-WULF's DESIGNER AND TEST PILOT by Wolfgang Wagner" as my second source for Ta152H-1 production. It states "The H-0, H-1 and subsequent H-2 series were laid down as escort fighters, a type for which there was urgent need at the time. Of course the aircraft could be employed in different roles, such as the R21 conversion for fighting in inclement weather. Approximately 150 aircraft are reputed to have been manufactured at the Cottbus works before the Soviets occupied the city."
It seems the be combining the H-0, H-1 and H-2 production and then uses the word "reputed" which says to me "undocumented & unverified". It also doesn't say how many were delivered. It is possible that many had been built only to rot in the delivery yards.
Unfortunately, I do not have many sources for information on either the N1K2-J or the Ta152H-1.
[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Interesting stuff. Thanks for the link.
Still trucking on in the ol Ta-152. Took off from 10, a B-26 was flying overhead bombing fuel and such. Eventually clawed my way up to altitude (20k) and attempted to engage. Met my first geekdancer B-26 today... thought only the Lanc pilots did this "slow rudder circle" crap. HTC- while you are at it, please DISABLE flight controls while people are gunning, it is rather stupid for one person to be able to FLY and GUN at the same time. Not to mention infuriating for those of us that try to kill the little idiots.
Anyway, finally landed some good hits on the geekdancer, he got the ping he needed to knock out the radiator. Oh, by the way, the ta-152 seems to have a glass radiator, I've had it knocked out 3 times by bombers so far, and once by an M3. This is in 7 or 8 flights. Geekdancer got finished off by someone else as I glided down to base. I hit short, was planning on rolling to the runway, that didnt work as the landing gear broke on impact. Ended up inside the perimeter of the base, but short of the runway. Adios 40 perk points.
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Urchin,
It was standard in Lancasters for the tail gunner to give an order like "Corkscrew left!" if he sighted an enemy aircraft. The pilot would then throw the Lanc into a wild turning dive, then climb while the tail gunner blasted away at the German.
American bombers flew in tight, daytime formations so these things weren't an option. I see no reason that a lone American bomber wouldn't have tried them though.
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HTC- while you are at it, please DISABLE flight controls while people are gunning, it is rather stupid for one person to be able to FLY and GUN at the same time. Not to mention infuriating for those of us that try to kill the little idiots.
That has got to be the funniest whine I have seen in a long time. Please don't let my targets manoeuvre when I am shooting at them.
:)
Urchin, in another thread you are arguing against the introduction of a 1943 or 44 Spit, which had 4000 and 950 models produced, repectively. The 1943 Spit, with 4000 produced, would be less capable than the Ta152, yet you want it perked, and the Ta152 unperked. On what grounds?
[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Nashwan ]
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Nashwan, I know you aren't stupid. Go back and READ the grounds. I don't feel like posting them again. However, I never said I want the Spit perked, just that it WOULD BE if it were introduced.
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I for one am keeping the Ta-152 thread right up at the top until I either a. Get a response from HTC about my email (which is included in the thread btw), b. get a response from HTC in the thread, or c. wake up and find that the Ta-152 has either had its perk cost drastically reduced, or eliminated.
Not that wanting bombers to be unpiloted while you attack is entertaining in a foolish comical way, this thread really isn't that interesting.
Please email HTC again.
Punting this thread as you threaten till you get exactly what you want isn't nessessary, please.
[ 08-12-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Yea Creamo- but ya just keep on coming back. Oh, by the way, you never told me what I should have done against you and the Spit, please enlighten me with your vast store of knowledge.
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woof woof
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I just have to say something about the site that Urchin posted:
Aircraft of the World
They seemed to leave out Italy and Russia.
Guess those 2 countries don't have aircraft.
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Hey: if Urchin wants to keep this thread @ the top, let him do it. It's his decision whether to express his opinion or not, not your's.
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He sure can Dingy.
Expressing your opinion is one thing, punting it until HTC meets a silly ultimatum?
Ok.
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Pdog, they sure did. Didn't even notice that until you brought it up. They've got Romania in there though :D.
Creamo- it isn't an "ultimatum".
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Rammed by a C.202 at sea level in a furball. To bad he didn't get credit for the kill, that would have been worth some perks.
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Look, planes are perked because of a) rarity b) low production numbers, c) apparently if used too much (although only used on one aircraft that the same people arguing to unperk the Ta-152 argued to get perked), and d) untouchability.
The Ta-152 is 3 of the 4 above. Rare, low production numbers, and it would be untouchable.
At it's operational altitude, it is untouchable. You can't argue against that.
Kill this thread, you are wasting your time.
-SW
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Planes are perked because of a real or perceived unbalancing effect on the arena.
It's that simple.
And Pyro has said they will continuously monitor the perk system and what planes are in it or belong there. Maybe some day soon the TA-152 will no longer be a perk plane or perhaps one of lower cost. Or it could be it will remain a perk plane for reasons we have not seen yet.
Westy
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]
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SW- of COURSE the Ta-152 is untouchable at it's operational altitude (of 40k).Nobody is friggin UP THERE to TOUCH IT. Just remove the plane from the game. It is obviously a niche plane with no niche in Aces High. I'm sure Pyro could take it out and replace it with something that would be used more, like an early version of the I.A.R 80 or something.
Westy- I think the "imbalance" is percieved. Furthermore, I don't see exactly HOW that particular airplane could be imbalancing to the arena. It isn't like there are going to be hordes of marauding Ta-152s flying around, the plane SUCKS below 20k. From 5k to sea level, the planes abilities are truly laughable. I just thought it would be nice to be able to fly something different for a change, maybe get a little more variety. Granted, the Ta-152 has good firepower, and that is the only redeeming feature until you get above 25k. Below that the 109G10 and 190D9 climb faster, turn better (though D9 and 152 turn similar, I think the Dora has an edge), and have a higher top speed. The D9 rolls better as well. And since you and I BOTH know that 99% of the combat in the MA takes place from 10k on down, a planes performance at 40k really shouldn't have any bearing on it's perk price.
So, with that, either remove the Ta-152 or inflate the perk cost back up to 80 points, just do whatever you can to make people not fly it. While you are at it, perk the 109G10 and the 190D9, and make the 109G2 and 190A5 cheap perks (on the order of 40 points or so)- that way you can keep ANYONE from flying the German planes.
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Urchin,
I want to thank you for bringing laughter into my day. :D
Cobra
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Originally posted by Urchin:
So, with that, either remove the Ta-152 or inflate the perk cost back up to 80 points, just do whatever you can to make people not fly it. While you are at it, perk the 109G10 and the 190D9, and make the 109G2 and 190A5 cheap perks (on the order of 40 points or so)- that way you can keep ANYONE from flying the German planes.
And out the door goes any chance of reasonably explaining why the Ta-152 needs to stay perked.
Chalk this one up as a "LuftWhiner"....
-SW
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SW- gimme a break. Go ahead and "reasonably" explain why it needs to remain perked. Better yet, scroll up a little bit and refute my "letter" to HTC, point by point. Until then, I'm chalking you up as a moron.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Okay Urchin, you want reasonable explanations? Well here ya go:
"a) rarity b) low production numbers, c) apparently if used too much (although only used on one aircraft that the same people arguing to unperk the Ta-152 argued to get perked), and d) untouchability."
Imagine that, all I had to do was cut n paste it. You leave it free, and more people will inevitably fly it but that in turn means that you'll have more of them. The more you have the higher the fights go. THe higher the fights go, the more the Ta-152 comes into it's realm. In the end, you have an arena with Ta-152s all over.
Keep it perked, keep it rare.
-SW
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Okay Urchin, you want reasonable explanations? Well here ya go:
"a) rarity b) low production numbers, c) apparently if used too much (although only used on one aircraft that the same people arguing to unperk the Ta-152 argued to get perked), and d) untouchability."
This part is garbage. "Rarity" and "Low production numbers" are synonymous unless I'm mistaken, plus both of those are entirely subjective. Overuse COULD be a criteria, and probably was in the perking of the C-Hog (which by the way, also meets 1&2 on your "list"- at least by MY definition). Untouchability- again, entirely subjective. I've flown it a bit this tour, I was "touched" quite easily when making attacks on buffs at 30k (and below). I guess I'm curious as to why people think the C-Hog should NOT be perked, when it is clearly a superior plane in the MA, but that the Ta-152 should be perked into extinction.
Imagine that, all I had to do was cut n paste it. You leave it free, and more people will inevitably fly it but that in turn means that you'll have more of them. The more you have the higher the fights go. THe higher the fights go, the more the Ta-152 comes into it's realm. In the end, you have an arena with Ta-152s all over.
This is actually an interesting argument. I suppose that it could happen that way, although I doubt it for the following reasons. Vulching is predominate in the MA- and to vulch you have to get low. Over bases, the action will be under 10k practically all the time. If you are being vulched, you want a plane that performs well at low level. Even when the focus is on taking a base and not vulching, you still have to get low to take out the acks, etc. The goons that take bases fly low (NOE). The people that HUNT goons fly low (do you have any idea how hard it is to get from 30k down to sealevel in time to stop a goon?). So I think it is more likely that even if the Ta-152 is unperked, you may see the kills per tour go up to 1000 or so (which may be optimistic). The arena will NEVER "be full of Ta-152s".
Keep it perked, keep it rare.
Opinions are like amazinhunks bud- everyones got one. The problem is that in your case you are backing your opinion with "just cuz" as a reason (although the little story of Ta-152s taking over the arena is imaginitive, if not plausible), whereas I am putting forth a little effort.
-SW
Edit- Actually, I just thought of something else. Shouldn't you #3 reason "apparently if they see to much use (but only if the Luftwhiners whine about it, yadda yadda) cut both ways. In case you missed it, the TA-152 sees less use than the C.202. The C-47 had more kills than the TA-152 did last tour. Yes, an unarmed transport plane managed to kill more enemy planes than the Ta-152 did. So apparently, in my opinion, the Ta-152 isn't seeing ENOUGH use. On the other hand, the F4U-1C, which was also RARE in WW2, is perked at 8 points, and sees more use than any German plane other than the 109G10.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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What effort? The only effort you put forth is "just because"..
Because not enough people fly it? Oh well, guess they just don't care for it.
Because you got killed too many times in it? Well I know where the mistake is with this one.. and it the mistake lies in how you fly it.
Because it has poor low alt performance? So does the D-9.. does this mean would should up it's ENY value to 40 so it can get as many points for kills as a 109F4? Don't think so.
Because you want it free so every time you die in it you don't lose points? Ahhhh! That's probably it.
You're right, everyone has opinions. You asked what the criteria is for perking...
a) overuse b) plane's impact on arena c) real world production/combat numbers and d) rarity.
Yes rarity and low production numbers are two different things. You can have low production numbers, but if it's a front line fighter.. well then it ain't too rare, now is it? If it's held behidn the lines for defense of ze fatherland, then no doubt it will be rare.
The second you stepped onto that high pedastal touting your LuftWhiner drivel, that's the second I thought "What a dumb ass."
Next time you decide to get on that high horse and go off on some wild tangent that because ONE plane out of _NINE_ "LuftWaffe" fighters is perked and isn't being used as much as you think it should be, you just remember you are _THE_ poster child for the LuftWhiners.
S! Herr KapitanOfZeLuftVinerKorp von LimpWristedHasselhoff
-SW
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Urchin-
Your argument revolves around your not being able to fly the plane ahistorically without cost. You want to be able to take that big-cannoned, high-alt bird to sea level and vultch. You say you wanted more birds to fly, yet seem to want to fly only the 152. hose seem to be the high points.
The comparisons to other aircraft don't mean much, because you keep comparing them out of the context of where the Ta152 was designed to excel. Of course the other craft do things better at lower alts.
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LOL- Swolfe. You can make me laugh, even if that isn't quite what you intended. You must be quite a mouse in real life, to have all this anger you must let out on the BBS.
Because not enough people fly it? Oh well, guess they just don't care for it.
Or could that be because the perk cost is to high?
Because you got killed too many times in it? Well I know where the mistake is with this one.. and it the mistake lies in how you fly it.
I was SHOT DOWN 3 times in it.
Because it has poor low alt performance? So does the D-9.. does this mean would should up it's ENY value to 40 so it can get as many points for kills as a 109F4? Don't think so.
The Ta-152 makes the D-9 look like a thoroughbred at low alt. No, I don't think the D-9s ENY value should be 40- I actually think the ENY value on it is ok. I DO think the 109F4's ENY value should be raised from 40, or the 109G2's lowered, because it is easier to get kills in the G2. But since that is just "Luftwhiner drivel" I guess you don't care.
Because you want it free so every time you die in it you don't lose points? Ahhhh! That's probably it.
Actually, thats not a bad idea. However, I said I want the perk value LOWERED, not ELIMINATED. I understand how you might have missed that, the red haze you get in your eyes every time someone makes a SUGGESTION about the German planes must make it hard to see.
The second you stepped onto that high pedastal touting your LuftWhiner drivel, that's the second I thought "What a dumb ass."
Well, I don't recall stepping on a pedestal, but it is nice to know we hold the same opinion of eachother anyway.
Next time you decide to get on that high horse and go off on some wild tangent that because ONE plane out of _NINE_ "LuftWaffe" fighters is perked and isn't being used as much as you think it should be, you just remember you are _THE_ poster child for the LuftWhiners.
LOL- this is actually what made me laugh. Why do you think I give a toejam how you see me? By the way, I guess AKDejavu is the Crown Prince of the "Luftwhiners" since he actually agrees that the Ta152's perk cost needs to be lowered. Or wait, was that Creamo? Maybe it was Frenchy? Maybe it was Seeker, or Pug666 or Zigrat? I have news for you "friend"- there are a lot more people than me that think this _ONE_ Fighter out of _NINE_ isn't seeing enough use.
S! Herr KapitanOfZeLuftVinerKorp von LimpWristedHasselhoff
<S> General Mc'ClosemindedOpenMouthedShitForBrainsMoron.
Not as "creative" as your title, put I think it gets my OPINION of you across OK.
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Urchin-
Your argument revolves around your not being able to fly the plane ahistorically without cost. You want to be able to take that big-cannoned, high-alt bird to sea level and vultch. You say you wanted more birds to fly, yet seem to want to fly only the 152. hose seem to be the high points.
The comparisons to other aircraft don't mean much, because you keep comparing them out of the context of where the Ta152 was designed to excel. Of course the other craft do things better at lower alts.
Kieran- people fly all the planes in this game "ahistorically without cost". The P51, P47, and P38 were DESIGNED to fly at high altitudes as well.
As far as the "vulching" part goes- this is where I really wish HTC could break the kills up into A2A kills vs. A2G kills. I don't as a general rule (there are exceptions) take part in a Vulch. I generally have better things to do with my time. I fly CAP over the base, escort the goon in, etc. I do partake on occasion though, and I mainly do it in the 190A8. The 109s are just to frail to get low and slow over a field, and the 190A5 and D9 don't have the guns and ammo load for it, in my opinion. What I'd like to do with the Ta-152 is fight in it. As it stands now, you can "fly it right" (as a WW2 SR-71), or you can go down where everyone else is and fight in it. I don't think a perk value of 40 points is justified for a plane that is so out of its element below 15k. You have another opinion, and I can actually respect that.
As far as "variety" goes- I'm not going to look up the definition. I have a pretty good idea of what the word means. You seem to think that if I want variety I should fly every plane in the arena. I'll post my stats from last tour here, in case you do't know how to get them. OK, that didn't work so well. Go look up my stats for tour 18 (go to scores, then expanded format, and type in Urchin). I actually do get into quite a few different rides. What I'd like to see (and what I consider "variety") is one the level of the arena. Mainly, you are going to see N1K2, Spit, La7, P51, and then other assorted planes. Thats not a bad thing, just boring for me. I like to fly a different plane than everyone else is flying. As it stands now, the Ta-152 sees next to no use in the MA, and I think that is a shame. I think the reason it sees next to no use is because the perk points you are "risking" by flying it are not balanced out by the "reward" you get by flying it. For the Tempest, I think that they are (although that could also stand to be lower a bit I think). For the C-Hog, they definately are. Since you obviously can't make the Ta-152 more "rewarding" to fly in the MA, if you want to see more of them you have to make it less "risky". Most people are for lowering the perk value of the Ta-152 (with the exception of SWulfe, who is apparently rabidly against it). You don't seem to be, and thats fine. I'm just making my case for lowering the perk cost, thats all. I'm not trying to fill the arena with Ta-152's, or make everyone march in step and sing German war songs.
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Angry? Funny.. I'm merely pointing out that you are not only wrong but you don't understand the point of the perk system.
40 points is about where it should be. Okay, maybe 35.. either way it's supposed to be rare.
The F4U-1C was perked because of arena wide use. Not because of it's performance.. or was it? Or was it's guns? Hell I forgot, I read so many 'reasons' that I'm confused as to what the ultimate reason for perking it was.
In case you haven't caught on yet, the Ta-152 was a last ditch effort to keep high alt bombers away from Berlin (B-29)...
How many kills did the Ta-152 get in the war? I'm curious...
How many were made and in an operational squad?
You want the price lowered because you screwed up too many times and lost too many points.. that in itself is a joke.
-SW
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Well, now is when it gets interesting for me. The F4U-1C saw combat in the PTO. As far as I know only 200 were made, and only one squadron flew them. Unless I'm mistaken, I also seem to recall that the squadron made 70 something kills in the plane.
So, why was it REALLY perked? Was it because it was rare? 200 planes is by no means common, and the plane only saw action in one battle as far as I know. Low production numbers? Again, 200 planes is by no means a lot of planes, so I guess THAT could be the reason it was perked. Or was it overuse in the arena? I know for a few tours the F4U-1C had close to 40,000 kills in the arena. Yea, that could be the reason to. I doubt it was because of it's performance (or "untouchability" as you put it), since the F4U-1D is the same plane and it has yet to see a 1 to 1 K/D as far as I know. That brings up the issue of the guns- since the only difference is the there, and the F4U-1C maintains a K/D of around 2 to 1 since it has been perked (as an aside, the F4U-1C has always had a higher K/D than the Ta-152 since it has been perked).
So, I'll ask this question again. Whats the rationale behind taking a plane that was produced in low numbers, saw action in one battle, and is quite clearly a good plane under MA circumstances and (originally making it NO cost) perking it at 8 points- then taking a different plane that was produced in low numbers, also saw action under limited circumstances, and clearly does NOT perform well under typical MA circumstances, and (originally making it 60 points I believe) perking it at 40 points?
Please explain that to me, if you could, since you clearly have a much better understanding of the perk system than I do.
By the way, I'll try to look up the number of kills made in Ta-152's, but I'm not sure how easy it will be. I do know that no German squadron fielded Ta-152's exclusively, they were normally fielded alongside 190D9's. As near as I can tell, somewhere around 150 Ta-152Hs were produced. How many saw combat is another question entirely.
And Swulfe- your idea that I want the price lowered because I "screwed up to many times and lost to many points" is actually laughable. I've given many reasons for wanting the perk value lowered. Your attempt at "reverse psychology" to uncover my "real" motive is stupid to say the least.
EDIT- my claim above ws not true. The Ta-152 had a better K/D in tour 16 than the F4U-1c, after than it has been lower.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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I give up, this is pointless.
I could argue sanely, intelligently, and calmly all day long as to why the Ta-152 should remain perked at it's current cost.
You will insist it's because people are out to get the "LuftWaffe" out of the game...
Hey man.. whatever gets you what you want, right?
Reminds me of a little boy crashing to the ground with arms and legs flailing about while tears stream from his face yelling "It's not fair!! It's not fair!!!"
-SW
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I beg to differ... Just about all of my posts are "sane, intelligent, and calm". Granted, I do lose my temper on occasion, but that happens to everyone. However, I do agree that this is indeed pointless. I will never be able to convince you that the Ta-152 would not take over the arena if the perk cost was lowered. However, I would like to see a response to my question above, especially from an expert on the perk system such as yourself. Who knows, you may be able to convince the "poster child of the Luftwhiners" that you are actually right.
Oh, and by the way- the tone of more than a few of your posts might also fit in with your image of
a little boy crashing to the ground with arms and legs flailing about while tears stream from his face yelling "It's not fair!! It's not fair!!!"
-SW
Actually- the above isnt quite true. I actually think that your posts (especially here) are more in the vein of a parent that is unable to give a GOOD reason for not allowing a child to do something, and so resorts to the time honored "Because I said so". I know I experienced this as a teen, and it infuriated me then as much as the attitude irritates me now as an adult.
LOL- and as a last edit.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
I could argue sanely, intelligently, and calmly all day long as to why the Ta-152 should remain perked at it's current cost.
Perhaps you are unfamiliar with the setup of a debate. One party makes a statement, the other party attempts to refute it. The original party then attempts to refute the second parties statement. Your idea is more along the lines of something out of elementary school, with the dialogue of
Urchin- I think the Ta-152 needs to have its perk value looked at. I cannot see a reason to keep the value at 40 points. <offers some evidence to support position>
SW- I think you are wrong. <offers some evidence to support HIS position>
Urchin- No, I still think I am right <attempts to refute SW's evidence by comparing it to his own>
SW- YOU ARE A DAMN DOODY HEAD ! YOU BETTER SHUT UP BEFORE I BEAT YOU UP! YOU ALWAYS THINK YOU ARE SOOO COOL AND BETTER THAN ME! MY DADDY CAN BEAT UP YOUR DADDY!!
Urchin- :confused: :confused: :eek:
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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I've never complained about any plane in the game, except for the F4U-1C for the first couple weeks I was here. I learned to counter it and I was strongly opposed to the perking of the F4U-1C.
I do NOT complain about how other people fly, what plane they fly, how the planes fly, how the guns are modelled, how the game works.. I only call out those that do complain, incessantly at that, about things that will be fixed but it will take some time.
I gave you several reasons for the criteria of the perk system: a) real life rarity, b) real life production runs, c) in game performance, d) untouchability, e) firepower and last but not least f) impact on the game.
The point of the perk system is to keep people from being untouchable, while also allowing people to fly the planes.
2x 20mm and 1x30mm, a great top speed to boot, awesome energy retaining ability with those huge glider wings, and amazing dive ability. These coupled together make it a great machine.. oh and it's visibility too.
You keep reducing the price down to, what was it- 3 points proposed?!, and you'll see guys jumping in it because they can recklessly fly around.
As far as the 150built.. I believe only 70 of them only ever had power plants installed and were prepped for flight. That makes it have less planes capable of flight than the F4U-1C.
-SW
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If the 152 is unperked, it will not dominate the arena for one reason: it is LW.
That does not mean it isn't capable of dominating all non-perked aircraft. This plane is capable of being untouchable, so I support perking it.
I do believe the perk cost should be reduced to below 20 points though, simply because nobody is flying it anymore.
AKDejaVu
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I gave you several reasons for the criteria of the perk system: a) real life rarity, b) real life production runs, c) in game performance, d) untouchability, e) firepower and last but not least f) impact on the game.
And I attempted to respond to each of those, and did so satisfactorily in my mind. I'm not going to do it again 5 posts down from where I did it last time. Do you have any NEW arguments? Or will you deign to answer some of my counter arguments?
You keep reducing the price down to, what was it- 3 points proposed?!, and you'll see guys jumping in it because they can recklessly fly around.
No, I think a good price for the Ta-152 would be between 6 and 10 points. In other words, put it on par with the F4U-1C, because in my opinion in matches the "historical" reasons for being perked and can't even come close to the "in game" reasons.
As far as the 150built.. I believe only 70 of them only ever had power plants installed and were prepped for flight. That makes it have less planes capable of flight than the F4U-1C.
-SW
As far as I know- the 150 Ta-152H's that were built included engines. I don't know if they all saw combat, but I do think they were all READY for combat. And sure, I never argued that the Germans had MORE Ta-152's flying than the Americans had F4U-1C's- I am saying that if the reason the Ta-152 costs 40 points is because only 150 were produced, the price of the F4U-1C should be significantly higher than it is.
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Urchin:
Here is some information about the Ta-152-H1.
This is from memory so the figures are not exact and I didn't do the research but here goes:
Vermillion, Funkedup and some others did some research on the Ta-152. Somewhat over 100 (150?) of the "operational" versions were produced. Of these they were able to track by serial number what happened to each aircraft. The majority were destroyed before they had the opportunity to fly combat sorties (by enemy action at the factory, or at a friendly airfield, or in accidents etc...). After the serial number accounting was done it turns out that less than 20 (I don't remember the exact number) of the Ta-152s were not destroyed before they had the opportunity to fly combat sorties. So something like 19 (maximum) Ta-152s MIGHT have flown combat sorties. It was not determined for certain how many Ta-152s flew combat sorties or how many were flown but both numbers are undoubtedly very small.
This topic has been extensively researched and discussed on this BBS. If the search function worked properly I would point you to the appropriate threads, but sadly I can't :(.
When HTC first introduced the perk system I recall them advertising it as a method to introduce rare/exotic or unbalancing aircraft into the MA on a very limited basis. The decision to perk the C-hog came later and appears strictly to have been to limit availability of an "overused" aircraft.
HTC perks aircraft for a variety of reasons, not just performance. Perk costs and reasons for perking or not-perking will change over time. The bottom line is probably that HTC will use the perk system as a tool to make the MA "a better place". Obviously HTC wants more and happier customers and their definition of "a better place" to achieve this is entirely up to them.
Perhaps HTC doesn't ever want to see Ta-152s be anything but very rare in the MA. Since less than 20 flew combat sorties, this makes a perfectly reasonable rational for keeping them expensively perked.
Hooligan
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First of all, you are comparing it to the F4U-1C.
Two veryh different planes, from two very different technological years with two very different duties.
You are using the same ol' tired arguments again and again in this thread: "someone shot me down because it's performance is poor at low altitude", "the F4U-1C is better but costs less.. why?", "people are trying to drive the LuftWaffe out of the game" (you don't believe you typed that? I can show you!) and other non-sensical babble.
6-10 points?!?! Sure, make the Tempest right around 2 points then.. I mean it wasn't nearly as rare as the F4U-1C or Ta-152, but it's priced way higher than both of them!
-SW
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You make quite a few assumptions about the intelligence of people, don't you?
Being the master of the obtuse that I am, let me tell you what I am really pointing out; there are inconsistencies in your argument. I couldn't care less if anything is perked or nothing is perked. In fact, I don't care about the perk system at all.
When I say that it is funny that people that want to unperk the Ta152 but perk the Hurri wasn't specfically referring to you. You aren't the only person that suggested eliminating the Ta152 perk price. You have totally misunderstood my point there and have painted me as a person that wanted to keep the perks where they are, something I have never said.
If you search really far back on the BBS you will find record of me stating that the perk system as it is established is flawed because there will always be a perceived "best plane", that pilots would simply start crying about the next one until all are perked.
And if you look really, really far back and check my scores (Kieren) you will see that I have played a bit and know how to check scores. I will also be the first to tell you those scores tell you nothing about how I got the kills. Showing me that you have a bunch of kills in any plane doesn't prove to me you are an expert on all matters concerning the plane. It just shows me that you are good at putting yourself in a situation where you win.
Yeah, the Arado is fun, but dang, I miss getting chased. Maybe I will make the runs at 10K just so I can drag people around the arena. Wait a minute, at 10K the La7's might catch me. Damn. Well, if it cost less, I might do it. Yeah! Hey, it isn't much of a bomber at 10K, can get caught by several planes, can't defend itself, carries a small bombload... why not unperk it?
Give me one good reason not to unperk the Arado using the same logic you applied to the Ta152.
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U know what? to tell u the truth, i would MUCH rather see EVERYTHING unperked. U heard me...EVERYTHING!! And put in a rolling plane set in it's place. And the logic of the RPS is as follows: What quarter of what year was this plane introduced and what % of the planes in service consisted of this planes (the country it served).
Why did i make this topic about the 152 only? I've picked out planes to unperk first that I think will have the least impact on AH.
[ 08-13-2001: Message edited by: Ding_Hao ]
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Actually Kieran, I'd support lowering the cost of the Arado to ;), so it isnt a good argument for me to make.
Swulfe- I guess you can't give me a good answer as to why the Chog is at 8 points and the Ta-152 is at 40, so I'll drop it. If HTC decides to lower the price of the Ta-152, I might fly it, until then I'm done with it.
Also, Kieran, I did NOT mean to insult your intelligence by telling you how to look up the kill stats for me. I'm sorry if it came across like I did. Also, that was not meant to show that I'm an "expert" at ANY planes, just that I fly quite a few of them.
Hooligan- thank you for that information. I really do wish the search function was in place on the BBS, but since the BBS crashed a while back I wouldn't be able to look up everything like I'd like to. I'd really love to run a search on all the Ta-152 threads, because a lot of people put good information in when they post, and links to sites that I can look at :D.
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"So, with that, either remove the Ta-152 or inflate the perk cost back up to 80 points, just do whatever you can to make people not fly it. While you are at it, perk the 109G10 and the 190D9, and make the 109G2 and 190A5 cheap perks (on the order of 40 points or so)- that way you can keep ANYONE from flying the German planes.
"
man.
where do these people come from.
Urchin. If you dont see why the 152 is perked your not flying it right.
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I guess you are right Pongo. I have absolutely no idea how to fly it right. Apparently, the plane is in Aces High to fly around at 40k and never engage anything. At least it would be easy to keep your perk points if you flew that way.
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Planes are made for fight and it sure is sad that Ta-152 is hardly ever seen in Arena (There must be a reason for that and guess we all know what it is).
Right now it looks like modelling it was a waste of time and resources of HTC IMO.
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Nhaaa, no waste of time, it's a beutifull plane although a bit too expensive (specially when we're getting the 262). the TA152 absolotely rocks down low except for a bit low deck speed, out accelerates everything though and outturns most other E fighters. What gets it killed is the darn perk points, just because it is a perk fighter everybody starts to chase it, even if they only get 1 or 2 points for it.
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If the TA-152 was a waste I guess one could the same about the Macchi 202?
Westy
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Actually, Westy- I'd probably say yes, putting the C. 202 in was a waste of time. You can fly the C. 205, and gain speed, climb rate, and guns, while losing a little bit of turn. Since the C. 202 can't turn with a Spitfire, Zeke, or Niki anyway- you may as well go with the C. 205.
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Yes, but no single plane can ever shoot the 202 down. It would be a draw. ;)
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"Against other E fighters"
Almost true. The G-10 and the pony might be able to turn harder @ low alt. Use the right ACM (turn fighting in a turn&burner, E in E fighter, since it's not an E fighter or T&B fighter down low) @ low alt, where it's weakest, and u'll kill em before he can get to 35k, where he's best, and he'll never get the chance to fight good.