Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: -ammo- on March 13, 2002, 11:39:44 PM
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Is this AC supposed to climb at 2800 FPM clean? I also never thought it was as manueverable as it is in this release? It may be like the first P-47 and 190A5 released in 1.03, the FM needed some tweeking after initial release.
Dunno much about it other than what i have read in some books, I never got the impression that it excelled in air to air combat.
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So help me God I love It So.....:)
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hmm Let's see:
Earlier when some players wanted to know if D-11 was modelled correctly were you one of those who did use word "Luftwhiner" ?
-If you were then "STFU you stupid allied swine"
-If not "Where are the numbers?"
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Is this AC supposed to climb at 2800 FPM clean?
Actually I think "2800" qualifies as a number...dont you Staga?
"stupid allied swine"?
geez..get a grip, the war ended over 50 years ago (yeah, Finland lost)
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In case of post editing:
Originally posted by -ammo-
Is this AC supposed to climb at 2800 FPM clean? I also never thought it was as manueverable as it is in this release? It may be like the first P-47 and 190A5 released in 1.03, the FM needed some tweeking after initial release.
Dunno much about it other than what i have read in some books, I never got the impression that it excelled in air to air combat.
Then two quotes from the thread Staga is referring to:
To StSanta's inquiry:
Originally posted by StSanta
I've got a feeling that the razorback p47 is a tad bit too maneuverable - or said in other words, either retains e too well or just gets around too fast.
From what I've read, it's approximately the same weight as other jugs. It's heavier than 190's.
Is it just my "feeling" that it's too light or does someone else have it too?
Not a whine, just an inquiry
Ammo gave this reply:
Originally posted by -ammo-
Oh no brother bluto!.. Those P47 guys are just too mean. It cannot be true that their ugly green plane is superior to our manly Messerschmidts...!!!!
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Hortlund without Finland you would be a member of Komsomolets and speaking russia when you are in your holidays in black sea :p
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Originally posted by Badboy
The 109G2, clean and with 25% fuel has an initial climb rate of 3950 ft/min at sea level. With the Gondolas that drops to 3773 ft/min. With 100% fuel, the drop tank and the gondolas that drops to 2910ft/min. Here is an energy maneuverability diagram for the G2, that also shows the effect of the gondolas on its maneuverability.
Badboy
I'ts surely true but they were speaking of the 110G2 not the 109 :)
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Mercy please. Just answer the question if you know about the 110. I am not whining. It is a twin engined attack AC, its not supposed to dogfight with the best of the single engine AC.
In the interim, if you would like to label me allied swine, you are welcome to do so:). It is true.
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It is a twin engined attack AC, its not supposed to dogfight with the best of the single engine AC.
It's not twin engined attack AC. It's Zerstörer, heavy fighter. Myth of it being bad fighter orginates from BoB. It was best used as energy fighter. So throttling down and flying with buffs wasnt very good idea...but they did it. Stupid germans. Anyway there was plenty of 110 aces.
As well you could call p-38 twin engined attack fighter. ;)
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(yeah, Finland lost)
Yeah, did we?
Strangely I never heard of it. I had an idea that we stalled Soviet attack at summer 1944 wich led to peace negotiations. Soviets wanted borders pushed somewhat back from Leningrad for peace and it was agreed.
If finland had lost we would most likely speak russian with you my swedish friend. Or we might not speak at all. Who knows.
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Ammo do a little comparison between Mosquito and Me-110G with wing loadings, engine powers and weights.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
I am not whining.
Sounds like a luftwhine to me. Except that you got it the wrong way. What goes around comes around, eh :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by illo
Yeah, did we?
Strangely I never heard of it. I had an idea that we stalled Soviet attack at summer 1944 wich led to peace negotiations. Soviets wanted borders pushed somewhat back from Leningrad for peace and it was agreed.
If finland had lost we would most likely speak russian with you my swedish friend. Or we might not speak at all. Who knows.
Yeah, you did.
You lost alot of land, and alot of natural resources. You lost a very strategic port on the Barents sea. That is direct losses from the war. Then you got to be a Soviet puppy for some fifty odd years.
Or this where you want to claim that the term "Finlandization" is really a good thing, and Finland choose that path out of their own free will? Simple fact of the matter is that Finland joined the war on the wrong side in 1941. The price she had to pay for that was to become a soviet pawn during the cold war. And before you start some "we were neutral"-ramblings, dont. Countries with mutual defence treaties with the Soviet union, and with an army fieldning Soviet tanks and aircraft dont qualify as neutral in my book.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Is this AC supposed to climb at 2800 FPM clean? I also never thought it was as manueverable as it is in this release? It may be like the first P-47 and 190A5 released in 1.03, the FM needed some tweeking after initial release.
Dunno much about it other than what i have read in some books, I never got the impression that it excelled in air to air combat.
Yeah, the 110G is far too uber. Indeed, the flight model found in EAW is much closer to reality than it is here. I'll see if its modeled in IL-2 and do a comparison. I'm sure it will be adjusted in the future.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Hortlund
Actually I think "2800" qualifies as a number...dont you Staga?
"stupid allied swine"?
geez..get a grip, the war ended over 50 years ago (yeah, Finland lost)
During war time somebody fight and somebody keep kinder carden.
Everybody do their best...
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Something I did really fast so thats why disclaimer...
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Hortlund have you ever heard about Folland Gnats, DeHavilland Vampires or SAAB Drakens?
Now shut up or we give Åland to sweden. Heck you can have Borgå too if you like.
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I know the 110C was fairly manueverable. I, like Ammo, would have assumed the 110G was a big fat pig with all those guns and such. I honestly don't know though. The wingloading looks comparable to the Mosquito, which turns pretty well, and who's FM everyone seems happy with.
I haven't played 1.09 online yet, exactly what can the 110G turn with that it shouldn't be turning with? I'd have assumed it would at least have a shot turning with P51s, P47s, 109G6 and G10, 190s, La7s, and anything I forgot that turns about like any of the above. Anything more turny than that and the 110G would have to BnZ, at least in my uninformed opinion.
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uups, messed with that pic...
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Originally posted by Widewing
Yeah, the 110G is far too uber. Indeed, the flight model found in EAW is much closer to reality than it is here. I'll see if its modeled in IL-2 and do a comparison. I'm sure it will be adjusted in the future.
My regards,
Widewing
What do you know about reality? Do you have some data to back up this "reality" statement or are you just whining?
sorry i need to do this :D
I watched too much of those luftwhiner comments...and hell those people usually have some data to start discussion with.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Indeed, the flight model found in EAW is much closer to reality than it is here.
I was thinking the exact same thing as illo.
Widewing, exactly how many hours have you spent flying the 110 "in reality"?
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Too uber huh? I know I'm just a newbie but... while it seems to me that it turned well it wasn't all that uber. My +/- list prior to giving up due to CTD's:
+ Good initial turn
- Slow roll rate
- Average speed
- Controls get sluggish above 400
+ Guns, guns and more guns!
+ Lottsa ammo
Doesn't seem that uber to me.
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Im impressed by the 110G2.
It feels a lot like the jug-11 before it was fixed... somehow I think something is out of whack with the 110G2. But I know little about the 110, so I really cant say.
From what i've seen:
-Engines are monstrous. WEP the thing on a slight dive, it will pick up speed like an La7/Mossie. E-retention is great.
Took a 38 up and fought with a co-alt, almost Co-E 110G2 (I was gaining on it just a little)... the 110 would simply nose down a bit and leave me in the dust.. my 38 had to do a hard dive to just catch up. Was no surprise there, the 110 can go to 400mph with barely diving 2-4k in a shallow dive.. the 38 needs like 8k to do the same, and the 110 retains those 400mph for a looong time.
The 110 ended up taking d800 .50 cal shots from me till somethign broke loose (and I had like 100 rnds left of ammo on the 50 cals!).
Simply amazing.
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I flew my only sortie last night in the 110G2, and it didn't seem uber in the least. I got in a fight with a 110C4, and I was faster, but he could outturn me, and neither of us could turn all that well. He got one of my engines smoking in the head on, but then he decided to straighten out and shoot at one of my teammates, and I lit him up with some 30mm love. He fell apart like Mariah Carey. :)
I really don't see the 110 surviving many dogfights against well flown pure-fighters. It'll be a kick-ass buff killer though!
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Originally posted by Kratzer
He fell apart like Mariah Carey.
LOL!! :D
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I don't have any info specific to the 110G-2, by my number on the 110G-4 gives it an initial climb rate of 2,170ft per min.
Staga,
That chart has neither the 110G-2, nor the Mosquito VI. It does give a rough idea though.
I am, frankly, not surprised by the manuverability of the 110. Its climb rate might be a bit high, but it might be spot on too. I don't know.
What would cause the 110G-4 to be that much heavier? I don't know the answer to that. LW experts?
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G-4 had the Schrage Muzik installation. So add the weight of 2x20mm Mg151/20 and ammo.
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Originally posted by Staga
hmm Let's see:
Earlier when some players wanted to know if D-11 was modelled correctly were you one of those who did use word "Luftwhiner" ?
-If you were then "STFU you stupid allied swine"
-If not "Where are the numbers?"
Thats how it works in AH....
Couple guys are talking if plane needs some corrections and some chowderhead rolls in and starts to throw more or less hidden insults.
If you don't have anything to say why don't you guys just stay away from topics like this?
BTW, How old are you Junior? And how's that glass house or yours?
-Sikboy
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Originally posted by illo
What do you know about reality? Do you have some data to back up this "reality" statement or are you just whining?
sorry i need to do this :D
I watched too much of those luftwhiner comments...and hell those people usually have some data to start discussion with.
Last night I turned with a Hurricane, shooting it out of its turn. I also witnessed a 110G out-turn a Mustang and kill it. How accurate is that?
I found torque to be non-existant. Initial roll rate in my estimation, is much too fast. I have read where one Luftwaffe pilot stated that he preferred the Ju 88, due to its better rate of turn.
I'm at the office right now, and I don't have my library at hand. However, I will address this further this evening.
Until then, let's look at what some actual combat pilots thought of the 110.
"Meat on the table" Robert Johnson
"Hopelessly out-classed" Jim Goodson
"Easy kills, virtually defenseless" Bud Mahurin
One needs only look at the success of the Bf 110 in combat in the ETO (circa 1943 and beyond) to understand that these aircraft were slaughtered by the day fighters, wherever they were encountered.
However, that does not appear to be the case in Aces High. I took a 110G-2 up last night and got two kills and two assists within minutes, turnfighting with planes, with which a real 110 had no chance whatsoever of surviving any real-world encounter.
Some wise bellybutton wanted to know how much time I had in real 110s. Obviously, none. However, I have over 2,300 hours in military aircraft (S-2F, C-1A, T-28, TA-4J to name a few), which I believe gives me some insight into the issue.
I defy anyone to present some evidence that the Bf 110 could dogfight anywhere near as well as the current AH modeled example does. When faced with single-engine day fighters, 110s were utterly annilated. As it stands now, the 110G has a better record than the 190A-8, 190F-8, F6F and P-38. All of these aircraft should (in the real world) easily defeat the 110G, with anyone with anyone less than the Lord Jesus at the Messerschmitt's controls. Yet, in the same arena, the 110 seems to on its way to generating a better combat record than the above. The logical conclusion must be that the 110 is over-modeled. Indeed, having flown other sim's 110s, AH's version is far more capable. If there were no other reason than that, it would be worth looking at.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Sikboy
If you don't have anything to say why don't you guys just stay away from topics like this?
-Sikboy
Pot, this is kettle, you're black, over. :rolleyes:
Karnak, the intitial climb rate I have for the G4 is 2,300 fpm. Time to 18,000 ft was 8 minutes.
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Originally posted by Raubvogel
Pot, this is kettle, you're black, over. :rolleyes
Karnak, the intitial climb rate I have for the G4 is 2,300 fpm. Time to 18,000 ft was 8 minutes.
lol Raub, that was the whole point. Good of you to notice
-Sikboy
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Widewing, I think what everyone is getting at is this:
Everytime someone posts something about an Allied plane possibly performing a bit too well they get labled as a "Luftwhiner" and are told to produce numbers and do testing to prove it. The precedent was set a long time ago. These guys are just asking the same in this instance. Produce some numbers, do some testing. Anedoctal evidence and testimonials mean squat.
Who's to say that other sims' 110s were correct? We really don't know. I haven't done any testing, but the 110 performs about as well as I'd expect it too. It's not "uber" by any means. I'm not sure why people are surprised that it turns well. The P38 turns well, the Mossie turns well....why wouldn't the 110?
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Everybody drop their nationalistic biases towards and against planes and just look at a plane as that, a plane. The plane could be modeled very well, the plane could modeled very poorly. But the direction some elements in this thread are going gets in the way of any meaningful discussion to take place. So let's stop with the flag waving and attacking and try to utizilize scientfic method.
In order to that, you also have to put reputations in perspective. This plane certainly carries a reputation in that it was pretty easy meat for escort fighters. But that doesn't mean it was a complete dog. At 26,000 feet, how well does it do against a P-51? Eric Brown had generally positive comments about the flying characteristics of the plane. Is that contradictory to its reputation? I don't think so.
Regardless, arguing about its reputation is not of much use. If there is something wrong let's define what is and quantify it. If there is one thing I would love to see for this plane, it is a detailed weight schedule if anybody has one. I could have a major problem there, or perhaps other people do.
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you can do lots of things with Energy Widewing. not trying to be a smartass or anything...but if something like a pony gets low and slow...who's to say a zeke cant dive in on it and catch it before it gets back up to speed?
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Widewing--
Not saying the 110 is right or wrong in AH, but condsider that quite a large number of number of LW pilots considered the P-38 to be an easy kill that was almost helpless in A2A combat. Galland made a point of comparing the P-38 to (surprise surprise) the Me-110. Do their statements mean the AH P-38 is over-modeled? I could take that a step further and look at the lack of success of the P-38 with the 8th Airforce to "prove" that the P-38 sucked.
But we both know that the P-38 didn't suck. We both know that there were other factors at work that hampered the P-38 in the 8th airforce.
I have found pilot accounts to be entertaining but virtually useless to back up claims regarding aircraft modeling in a game, because you can find pilot claims to back up almost any point you might wish to make. I can use pilot accounts to "prove" that the P-47D could out-turn the FW-190A-8; I can also use pilot accounts to "prove" the exact opposite.
I fly the P-51D a lot; I fully expect the 110 to out-turn me down low. I wouldn't even bother trying to turn with one under 20K or so. The Mustang driver who did deserved to get shot down. Right now the 110 is brand new in AH and nearly everybody expects it to be a total pig--which means they're most likely taking risks when fighting 110's that they wouldn't take against other fighters. The 110's "uberness" may well be a result of its opponents' overconfidence, or the it might well indeed have some quirk in its flight model.
What is its time to altitude? Speed at various altitudes? Turn radius and speed? Roll times to 45/90/180/360 degrees? These are the sort of nunbers you need to determine what's up with the 110.
J_A_B
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Over here: http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/bf110.html
I found the following info...
Bf-110 C4
Empty: 9,920lbs
Loaded: 15,430lbs
Wing area: 413 sq/ft
Wing loading at loaded weight: 37lbs/sq-ft
Power loading at loaded weight: 6.42 lbs/hp
It lists the same weights for the G series, which is obviously off. Over at this site here (http://www.wwiitechpubs.com/hangar/ac-deutschland/ac-de-hftr-messerschmitt-bf-110/ac-de-hftr-messerschmitt-bf-110-br.html) they give the following info for the C4 and G2. Ignore the metric conversions on-site, none of them are correct.
110-g2
Wing area: 413 sq/ft
Empty Weight: 12,566lbs
Loaded weight: 16,093lbs
Wing loading at loaded weight: 38.9lbs/sq-ft
Power loading at loaded weight: 7.1lbs/hp
110-c4
Wing area: 413 sq/ft
Empty weight:11,463lbs
Loaded weight:14,881lbs
Wing loading at loaded weight: 36.03lbs/sq-ft
Power loading at loaded weight: 6.33lbs/hp
Conversions used:
2.2046 lbs per kg
0.09290304 sq-m per sq-ft
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Flakbait [Delta6]
Delta Six's Flight School (http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6)
Put the P-61B in Aces High
"With all due respect Chaplian, I don't think my maker wants to hear from me right now. I'm gonna go out there and remove one of His creations from this universe.
And when I get back I'm gonna drink a bottle of Scotch like it was Chiggy von
Richthofen's blood and celebrate his death."
Col. McQueen, Space: Above and Beyond
(http://www.worldaccessnet.com/~delta6/sig/global.gif)
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BTW, HTC updated the performance pages to include new aircraft:
110g2 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/110g2.html)
110c4 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/110c4.html)
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Not saying the 110 is right or wrong in AH, but condsider that quite a large number of number of LW pilots considered the P-38 to be an easy kill that was almost helpless in A2A combat. Galland made a point of comparing the P-38 to (surprise surprise) the Me-110. Do their statements mean the AH P-38 is over-modeled? I could take that a step further and look at the lack of success of the P-38 with the 8th Airforce to "prove" that the P-38 sucked.
Heh heh. Yes, you could. Yes, you could indeed.
But we both know that the P-38 didn't suck. We both know that there were other factors at work that hampered the P-38 in the 8th airforce.
But....do the rest of us know that, too?
Oldman
:)
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Originally posted by pimpjoe
you can do lots of things with Energy Widewing. not trying to be a smartass or anything...but if something like a pony gets low and slow...who's to say a zeke cant dive in on it and catch it before it gets back up to speed?
Pimpjoe - which 110 were you flying last night? You did a very good job of flying to the strengths of the 110. I was in a Spit I btw, hence the almost constant hail of little bitty .303 rounds :)
That was one of the coolest fights I have had in AH
Palef
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palef! thanx :)
i was in the g2 last night...although i wont be in it for a while due to the CTD's being caused by it.:( its my new favorite ride. as long as you dont get that thing too slow its a beast. and whatever you do...DO NOT go head on with it:D
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110g2 kicks butt where others cant.......FOUR A/A rockets....that should be enough to frighten any buff flyer to death....let alone FOUR 20mm's and TWO 30mm's/......this is one of the heaviest armed fighters
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Don't seem wrong to me actually, the 110 C4 (to start with) turned about as good, some say even a bit BETTER then the 109 E4. Roll rate was of course slow.
The G2, which has got only slightly more wingloading and thus it should turns only slightly worse, it had a great initial turn but after a while it starts to turn worse.
Tac, reminds me of P38 ;)
P38's accelerate like the devil were after them, now, the 110 g2 seems to accelerate as if 2 devils were after it ;)
It can take a bunch of dammage too, like the P38.
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Oldman, you're being a bad boy :D You KNOW what'll happen if Savage sees that :)
J_A_B
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I always understood that the 110 had a reputation for being fragile.
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Somebody looks with which engine HTC simulate G2? Answer(big surprise, for german planes): with the best possible for G2, like Tiffi, bye example. However other planes are modeling not with their best numbers, like Fw 190 D, G6 or Ta 152.
Allied fans don't be talibans(same for LW fans), the germans had airplanes so good like USA planes. And quite better that the other countrys(UK,URRS, Japan...).
JAB, I agree you.
...and 410 were much better than the 110.
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hey Karnak :)
Never heard anything about it being very fragile my self, always thought it was a pretty sturdy plane, most twins seem to be (P38 quickly comes to mind).
Do you have any more info? Would be interesting reading :)
Btw, recieved the money?
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ok while we are on the subject of unusual climb rates could we have some sort of confirmation/figures for the climb rate of fully loaded p38s and P47s.I have no idea or info on their performance with full ordinance amounting to around 3500 lb.
I want to take this oppertunity to ask as any other time I'll be called handsomehunked names and the thread will be hijacked by those types.
ALso I would like to know why i have figures of 5500lb for b26s and we have 4000lb.B17s also have a listing of a maximum load of 17,500lb!! Is this correct? and if so why are b17s limited to 6000lb?
another thing is the armour of a 190f8.I have flown it many times and it just doesnt seem any different to any other 190.Yet every book I have give it special mention for its extra armour and its speciality of ground attack(along with specialised 190a8 with extra armour for the bombers which im NOT talking about :D)
The other, and last thing is the range in real life warfare for shots with the 75mm gun on a panzer IVH.
was it regularly able to shoot targets at 3500 yards as our AH one does? Wasnt the average less than a 1000 yards(vague memory! :))? Yesterday I was killed at over this range.first hit destroyed my turret! This is often the strongest/thickest armour unless the shell came in vertically and hit the thin top armour.
Even so for gameplay reasons, couldnt we make it so we can at LEAST see each other clearly before the killing starts?
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Very good point Darkglam.
In the other hand, the 110s were pigs compared with Spits. Well, actually anything in the game is a pig compared with Spits. But this plane was a grear turner compared specially with any late war plane.
As a side note, it is funny to see how the community reacts to whines about planes:
Do you attack a LW design with no data at all? You are a hero.
Do you try to improve a LW design with some data? You are a devil.
hehe I imagine a thread with an initial post like:
"Dora should be much faster because I think it should be so"
Or
"P51 should be much slower because I think it should be so"
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Hehehehe Mando, very true ;)
Hazed, the B17 was able to carry 17,500 pounds (or something like that) for short distance trips with little fuel in the plane. However, that would most likely unbalance the arena since a B17 now can get to 20-25k, drop it's eggs and rtb, all on 25% fuel. Now, Imagine this doing the same but with 17,000 lbs of eggs, nobody would fly lanc any more. Maybe perk loadout? Or if buff range is somehow shortened down.
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I turn fought 2 p51's on the deck in the 110, they both had the initial advantage, they both lost.
However, i was ignorantly very light on fuel.. (i ditched)
SKurj
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Hazed 75mm L43 or L48 could penetrate homogenous armour:
PzGr39: Range 2000m, with angle 0degr penetr.98mm, angle 30 degr. penetr.73mm
PzGr40: Range 2500m, penetr. 0degree angle 83mm and 30 degree angle 53mm
PzGr40: From 1000m penetr.@0degr133mm and @30degr. 96mm.
PzIV max.armour was usually 50mm in later variants; sometimes 80mm in front of hull with using additional armour plates.
Source: "Small Arms, Artillery and Special Weapons of the Third Reich" by Gander & Chamberlain, 1978
btw 75mm PaK41 with APCNR (Armour Piercing, Composite, Non-Rigid) ammunition could penetrate 171mm from 2000m in a 30degr.angle.
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I remember hearing something somewhere that someone once said about the PILOT playing a large part in the air to air factor and not necessarily the quality of the aircraft he/she may be flying.
Luck also is a factor
Lonz
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The 110s turn rate/radius doesn't surprise me. Its roll rate seems a bit high, I don't see Spit Is or 109Es out rolling it.
The climb rate is the thing that I'm really skeptical of.
The 110G-4 had a climb of 2,170-2,300 fpm. 2 MG151/20s + ammo shouldn't take that much off the climb rate, especially when you consider that the weight of the rear gunner and his guns has been removed to make room for the 2 MG151/20s and their ammo.
Thats a net weight gain of what? 100lbs? 200lbs at the outside.
If adding 100-200lbs causes the Bf110G to lose 500-630ft per minutte of climb rate, what does adding 2 500kg bombs do? It should drop it to near nothing I would think.
No, I believe that the Bf110G-2 climbs significantly faster than it should.
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Originally posted by Widewing
"Meat on the table" Robert Johnson
"Hopelessly out-classed" Jim Goodson
"Easy kills, virtually defenseless" Bud Mahurin
One needs only look at the success of the Bf 110 in combat in the ETO (circa 1943 and beyond) to understand that these aircraft were slaughtered by the day fighters, wherever they were encountered.
I defy anyone to present some evidence that the Bf 110 could dogfight anywhere near as well as the current AH modeled example does. When faced with single-engine day fighters, 110s were utterly annilated. As it stands now, the 110G has a better record than the 190A-8, 190F-8, F6F and P-38. All of these aircraft should (in the real world) easily defeat the 110G, with anyone with anyone less than the Lord Jesus at the Messerschmitt's controls. Yet, in the same arena, the 110 seems to on its way to generating a better combat record than the above. The logical conclusion must be that the 110 is over-modeled. Indeed, having flown other sim's 110s, AH's version is far more capable. If there were no other reason than that, it would be worth looking at.
That's one of the best posts I have read. I'm a newbie, so I have nothing to offer other than thanks for getting the new guys like me up to speed on planes, info sharing, and the like. It does seem odd, however, that the 110 seems to be relatively uber when compared to how it actually fared in the war. I had a hell of a time with a mossie the other night, while I was in an f6.
Let me play devil's advocate for a minute. Widewing, do you think the skill of the pilot has something to do with the success rate overall of the 110 in AH so far? or, does their level of success exceed the perceived abilities of the pilot?
That is all
Gainsie
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tactics in the MA in noway reflect tactics used in ww2...
Anyways check the K/D of thre 110...
SKurj
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OK di a very small amount of snooping last evening.
the 110 G2 data source that Flakbait quoted, and a book I own "combat AC of WW2" has close to the same general numbers. This comes no-where close to proving that the 110G is overmodeled but here it is for the sake of discussion.
the BF110-G-
2 each 1,475 HP DB605B engines, 2950 HP
empty weight (no fuel, ammo) 9,920 lb's
loaded weight 15,430
wing area, 413 sq ft
top speed 349 MPH @ 23k
time to climb to 18,045 ft, 8 minutes (I assume clean)
The P-47D25
1 P&W 2800, 2430 HP on wep
empty weight, 9,980 lbs
loaded weight, 12,990 lbs
wing area, 322 sq ft
top speed 426 MPH @ 25k
time to climb to 18K, 8 minutes clean
P47 data came from "Thunderbolt, From Severski to Victory" by Warren M. Bodie
Gonna do some AH tests next to compare it. Also will keep looking for more data as time (and priorities) permits.
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109 E should probarly roll a bit better, Spit 1 too maybe. 110 roll seems good.
Karnak, think you're wrong about the G2 though.
To compare it with a G4 is a pretty bad thing, the reason the G4 climbs that much worse isn't the extra 400 lbs of Mk108 + ammo, it's the radar + radar antenas.
Since it was a night fighter, it allso used flame dampers, and those slowed it down alot too.
By judging from all this, the G2 should have the performance it has when compard to the G4.
The G4 was a night fighter, it had radar which gave it much more wieght, but most important, it had antenas and flame dampers which caused high drag and slowed down everything with the plane.
So all together, although I don't have any data, I am guessing the G4 is about 1000 lbs heavier + the high drag antenas.
Widewing, yes, the 110 got slaughtered against single engine fighters. However, although a MUCH better fighter then the 110, the P38 too, didn't do well VS Luftwaffe, and Galland him self said, when there were P38's in the air, Luftwaffe were had an easy day ahead of them.
No twin engined fighter should be able to hold its own against single engine ones, only one that might have been able, more or less would almost certainly been able to do it, was the DO335. (not counting twin engine jets).
And yet, the P38 is about the most leathal fighter in the game with superb low speed handeling, turn rate, climb rate and a good roll rate.
Mosquito too, is truely great, turns exelent and fast and accelerates VERY well.
Real life tactics etc, has been proven "wrong" in AH numerous times, B26's and B17's dogfighting, making loops and rolls, main LW tactic of HO on buffs work as bad as going in from the 6 in AH.
List could go on and on...
The radar is the difference.
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Ammo, that G version seems to be a G4, not sure though, do you have the exact version?
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Originally posted by SKurj
tactics in the MA in noway reflect tactics used in ww2...
Anyways check the K/D of thre 110...
SKurj
Speaking of which, just how many kills DID you tally last night on that run you had in the CV? :)
I lost count at...120?
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Where's Rude ?
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I will say what I ahve learned in the past day, I need more sources of info on the 110:)
But I did manage to do some testing in AH. here are the results. I used the P-47D25 for a side by side comparison because I have good information on it. Whether the 110 was a match for the p-47 in real life I dont know. I dont think it was, and in AH it is not either. However I still think the 110 is a little out of whack, but is yet to be determined.
here is what i got--
Top speed at 4K for the 110G2 is 345 MPH. Top speed for the P-47D25 at the same altitude is 348 MPH. I had no idea that the 110 was that fast. I grabbed to about 8K, dove gradually to 4K, and leveled off with WEP and let the AC settle fo several minutes and then recorded the speed. Did the same for both AC.
Top speed at 23K for the 110 is 379 MPH, for the P-47 it is 418 MPH @25K. Incidently, the P-47 number is within 3% of published numbers (426 MPH). The number my book gives for the 110 is 349 MPH. This is quite different from what I got in AH, however my book doesnt specify which model of the 110 under the max speed blurb. So it could be way off. I would really like to see some better published data.
Time to climb for the 110 is 7.5 minutes to 18K. I used the default speed seting. For the p-47 I got 7.25 minutes. Both of these figures are faster than the numbers my books gave me. But not terribly off.
I did a crude test to compare roll rate for both AC. For the 110 I got right at 360 degrees 4 seconds at 340 MPH. The jug would roll 360 degrees in 3.4 seconds @ 400 MPH.
Question, what WEP system did the 110 use? When I got to 18K for the climb test I still had a fair amout of wep left. With the P-47 it was gone at 13K.
Ok still searching for better data. Cant come to a conclusion until I get better data for the 110. ANyone have any?
all for now..
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Although the WEP shut off, it's very likely the P-47 still has plenty of WEP left. WEP toggles off automatically when the engines get too hot.
All that particular data suggests is that the 110's engines heat up slower than the P-47's under WEP.
[edit] Then again, I think this is an obvious observation. By saying 'still have lots of WEP left' you must have meant until the engines get too hot. [/edit]
Dingo
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Ammo.....that 349mph figure is for the 110C...the 379 is pretty spot on
The 110 used the same WEP system as the 109s. Most common was MW50, but some of the Gs used GM-1 also. As with other German birds, it should be good for a 10 minute burst.
All the other figures you got seem reasonable. What exactly do you think is off about it?
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Our G-2 or C-4 for that matter shouldn't have MW50 or GM-1. In order to install these systems that weighed about 1,400lbs, the area in which the rear gunner would sit was removed. Likewise, the 190A8, A5, and all the post-E 109's in AH have long lasting WEPin AH. Some have performance based on MW50 equipped testing, like the G10, and others do not. The reason for the long WEP times in other German aircraft--I don't know.
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Doesn't seem off to me. I finally met up with a few in the MA.
It's a pig. It's a pig that is fairly fast, but still a pig. Every one I encountered displayed horrendous E-bleed whever they got their nose above the horizon. I rate it as "below average" for A2A combat; about on par with the Mosquito. It's certainly not "uber" by any means, although it can hold its own in some situations (particularly nose-low turnfights).
It is however fairly tough and seems like it has the potential to make a decent A2G fighter. It may find a niche in AH as it's one of the few A2G fighters that can also turn fairly well.
J_A_B
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I like it a lot. I also like the P38 a ton too, but the 110 is new, and it seems to be throwing people off because it's not a complete dog in all situations.
Actually, it's quite capable. But uber? No way. Laughably not. Out of spec? It doesn't seem so to me. It IS better than most everyone envisioned -- and thats the root of the problem. Just because it performs better in the late-war dominated MA than you suspected, does NOT mean anything is wrong with it.
Someone pointed out it's K/D ratio. I think basing your argument on a K/D ratio of an aircraft that has been out only for mere days is flawed. The other aircraft K/D ratio is based on weeks, (months if you check other tours) and of course will be lower. An aircraft this new only needs a few good sticks behind it racking up kills to offset the K/D ratio. As time goes on, the K/D will stabalize.
Dingo
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So what are the correct numbers for 110G-2 speed?
Search from the net gives max speed of 343 mph and C-4 349 mph?
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Anyone think the 110C is über?
Talk to Tukiyo. We were a flight of 5 110C's heavy, and he came with alt in a N1K.
Two of us tried to defend ourselves using the rear gun. Failed miserably.
1 tried a HO - same result.
Another tried running - died.
I tried a loopfight/turnfight - died.
He kept his e advantage through the whole fight.
We then upped in D9's to chase him all the way back from A1 to a7 - and then 15 miles further. Got him, eventually.
110 is dog meat to a N1K. No comparison. I suspect the same is true for the G2.
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WEO times for german planes using MW50 or GM1 was about 10 minutes in real life, they then shut off the BOOST and ran it normal for 5 minutes, where after they could once again use BOOST for 10 minutes, they could keep doing this untill they ran out of Boost fluid, something that's not modelled in AH and thus, IMO, quite a bit of "disadvantage" for german planes.
Ammo, not sure for what model thise figures are for, like Raub said, those speed figures and climb figures sure look like a C4, identical actually.
Since your book said G I'm not gonna argue with it, just state that it might very well bea G4. The G4 was a night fighter, radar arays, flame dampers etc made it alot slower the the normal G versions.
AH G2, acording to charts, have a top speed of about 360-365 at about 22k. Compare this to the G4, which had a top speed of 342mph at about 23k, with antenas and flame dampers. Flame dampers not only causing drag but allso reducing engines performance it self.
The G2 seems to be pretty right modelled IMO.
Nath, from where is that info I have with rear gunner removed due to MW50/GM1 boosting? Only info about Tail Gunner being removed is because is the Schräge installation of 2xMk108 in the rear cockpit.
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Thanks for the info wilbuz.
I understand that G-4 had antennas and other nightfighter equipments, but OTOH G-2 had bomb racks whereas G-4 didn't?
I found a reference that claims G-2/R2 did have GM-1 and it was placed to gunners position. Dunno about the reliability of this site, but it seems to have detailed info about fighters.
To compensate for the loss in performance and handling of the Bf 110G-2/R1, this version was fitted with a GM-1 nitrous oxide power-boost system. This system was positioned in the rear cockpit, in place of the radio operator. Also all defensive armament and rear-cockpit protective armor was (necessarily so) deleted.
http://www.ophetweb.nl/ww2w/ww2htmls/messbf110.html#messbf110verstab
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Thanks for info Vector :)
Bomb tacks them self though, hardly cause any drag at all, bombs do, not the racks (some but it can almost be overseen), the flame dampers and radar antennas were VERY bad though and slowed them down alot. Later radar antenas which were smaller were better but they still caused significant drag.
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Some more fuel for the fire..... Not taking either side.
My sources:
Signal Pubications No. 30 "Messerschmitt Bf110 Zerstorer in Action", for a Me110G2 max speed is 342 mph at 22,900ft.
Also here is its list of Rustsatze for the G series
R1: 37mm BK37 (Flak 18) Gondola's (Required the removal fo the ventral MG151's). Interchangeable with ETC Bomb racks.
R2: GM1 Powerboost-Nitrous Oxide injection system (weight of the system required the removal of the nose armament) {Verm's note: There is a diagram showing this}
R3: Two 30mm Mk108's replaced the four 7.9mm MG17 machine guns. Plus a ETC500 Bomb Rack (interchangeable with a ventral cannon tray contains a pair of MG151's)
R4: incorporates both Rustsatze #1 & #3
R5: incorporates Rustsatze #1, #2 & #3
R6: incorporates both Rustsatze #2 & #3
R7: 119 imperial gallon fuel tank in Radio Operators compartment, plus R3 30mm Mk108
------------------------------------------------------------
A couple of more general sources.
Complete Book of Fighters, for a Me110G-4c/R3, max speed is 342 mph at 22,900ft.
Complete Encyclopedia of World Aircraft, for a Me110G/R3 {Verms note: take note that it doesn't specify which G model} max speed 342 mph at 22,900ft.
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I think the worry that the 110G is mismodelled is simply that most online warriors don't take time to learn to beat it. In RL, or so I am told, the 110 would turn very well at low speeds, poorly at high speeds, so just make sure to work it to your advatage when attacking it, and it should proove to perform fairly realistically in comparison to others here.
Dashe
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Evildingo
My mention of the 110's K/D ratio will prove its NOT uber +)
the thing burns easier than a Zeke
and is not much tougher than a C47
SKurj
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Thanks verm!! I think you have pretty good evidence there.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not in anti-110 crusade, back in WB times I flew 110G's lot, but if something is wrong then we should try to fix it, right (oh yes, it's payback time, you abused our D-11 and now it's time to do 110G, hahahahaaa j/k ;))? BTW I recall Pyro saying something about 110G's modelling could contains some errors due the lack of proper documents?
Dashe, if Ammo tested 110G's speed 379mph and books and other information says it should be aroung 343 mph, then it is not matter of not being able to fight against it, but indeed there could be something wrong in the modelling.
110G is not so uber IMHO, after avoiding HO, 110 pilots usually run out of tricks and are beatable (well, there are exceptions too ) :)
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data from G2
Modell: Bf 110G2
Dimensions
Span 16.30 m (53 ft 5 in)
Length 12.10 m (39 ft 8 in)
Height 4.13 m (13 ft 6.5 in)
Wing Area 38.50sq m (4,144 sq ft)
Powerplant
Type DB 605 B
Cubic Capacity 35.7 liters (2,068 cu in)
Cylinders Inverted V12 cylinder
Horsepower 1,475 hp
Weights and Loads
Empty weight 5,700 kg 4,111 lb
Gross weight 7,300 kg 4,526 lbs
Performance
Maximum speed 595 kph at 6,100 m (370 mph at 20,013 ft)
Cruising speed 450 kph at 9,000 m (280 mph at 29,527 ft)
Service ceiling 11,000 m ( 36,089 ft)
Range (internal) 1,000 km (621 miles)
this are datas from the normal G2 w 4x7,9 MG15
think the G2R4 what we have have the same datas.
greeeeeeeets
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I'd bet that Pyro has seen data to support both ~340 mph as well as ~370 mph for max speed. Apparently he concluded that the 370 mph figure was correct. Perhaps you guys should ask Pyro the reason for that, if you believe that the 340 figure is the correct one?
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According to Verms data the G2 shouldn't be any faster than C4. I find that a little hard to believe.
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Actually Mora, no. :)
The Me110 in Action source, lists the Me110C3 (which should be lighter and slightly faster than the C4) as a max speed of 336mph at 19,865 ft.
Which means that (at least according to the Signal Pubications book) both of the 110's in AH are too fast ;)
But I readily admitt that I don't have any really high quality data on the 110 series, and it would be interesting to see what data Pyro is using for that plane.
Wulfmen, whats your source for that data?
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"No, I believe that the Bf110G-2 climbs significantly faster than it should."
Well you whiners allready got HTC to add a ton of weight and drag to the 110, certainly you will get everything else you ask for. :rolleyes:
Damn luft(allied)whiners.......
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The G4 is is no way comparable to the G2.
G4 had over and above G2:
Schrage Musik!
Huge radar antlers!
Heavy radar sets inside!
Very heavy and high drag flame dampers!
Very heavy and high drag underfuselage pod!
More weight due to other night fighting devices!
You cant compare them except to say G2 will fly better in every way......
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Originally posted by SageFIN
Perhaps you guys should ask Pyro the reason for that, if you believe that the 340 figure is the correct one?
Who ever said anything about 340 being the correct figure?
There just seems to be great differences between different sources, which is strange.
:)
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Not strange all. Lots of planes have wildly different performance figures depending on which source you use.
J_A_B
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CC Grunherz, like I said in some posts above, only you made it short ;)
Wulfmen, that Data can't be trusted in any way what so ever, sorry, I allso found it on inetnet, probarly same page.
Take this for example
Weights and Loads
Empty weight 5,700 kg 4,111 lb
Gross weight 7,300 kg 4,526 lbs
7,300kg is NOT 4,526lbs, it is about 16,000 lbs, don't dare to trust anything else in that :(
Verm, the two books I have with 110 Info in indicates that the C4 has a speed of 349mph at 22,965 feet.
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Dashe, if Ammo tested 110G's speed 379mph and books and other information says it should be aroung 343 mph, then it is not matter of not being able to fight against it, but indeed there could be something wrong in the modelling.
Well, all books and charts say that the TA152 had a top speed of 472mph at 41,000 feet but nothing has been done about that...
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STOP WHINING!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The G-2 is fine in the game, you got some weight/drag added to it. Plus it's an easy enough kill. You want to make it even more easy to kill? god.
Just because it isn't a total easy kill as you suspected don't whine that it should be made easier to kill. Just kill it where it's weak. I've had spits, nik2s... outturn me. I've outturnked nik2s, it all depends on the pilot. The truth is a lot of people who fly the 110 are experienced and good pilots.
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Hey SKurj,
Laugh! I apologize. I only skimmed over the first billion or so replies and had come to the assumption you meant the K/D was overly good. Either way, good or bad, it's early to say. :)
Dingo
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Allso, the 110 suffers from the "glass tail" syndrome like the P38, hope we get that changed too.
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Actually every plane suffers about glass made tails. I'm quite sure we all have seen gun-cam footages from ww2 but right now I don't remember any film where tail drops off from fighter.
Punt for more realistic damage model :)
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"I'm quite sure we all have seen gun-cam footages from ww2 but right now I don't remember any film where tail drops off from fighter. "
True, but one thing AH doesn't model and cannot model is a human's desire to LIVE. A computer game damage model has to be programmed in such a way as to render the "losing" plane totally unable to fight and/or escape. AH's "break off" system, while it may or may not be 100% true to life (this is debatable), performs this task.
Do you really want to have people flying around in smoking gliders trying to face-shoot each other? I've been there, done that, and it REALLY SUCKS.
If AH were to make fire/engine damage the main cause of destruction, then it must also make the so-damaged plane unable to effectively control itself; thick black smoke in the cockpit or junk on the windshield would accomplish this task (like the scene of the damaged "109" in the Battle of Britain film).
J_A_B
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I actually kind of like the damage of AH. It makes it fun, sure it's not totally realistic but it strikes the balance between fun and realism
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Well, all books and charts say that the TA152 had a top speed of 472mph at 41,000 feet but nothing has been done about that...
Just so there's no misunderstnading of my statements, I think the 110G, like every plane in AH, is fine. They all can kill and are killable, if you take the time to do it right, and don't just furball. Even the 17 with it's guns can be killed about 30% of the time, more for some, if you do it correctly with the right plane.
I really like AH, far better then I ever did AW, and think the new version is great, except frame rate and 110 backslides.
Dashe
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Yes Dashe, it is great, but it's got flaws, some pretty major.
If the 110 is somehow overmodelled I want it to be made right too, I don't think it is overmodelled though, not judging from the numbers I have.
The TA152 is wrong however, not difficult to prove but nothing has, nor do I think anything will be done about that.
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Hell, I don't care either way. I was just trying to share the meager information I had on the plane.
Oh but yes I have seen guncam shots of tails coming off. In fact, yesterday I was watching the history channel, and saw a clip that I had forgotten about, where a Fw190A takes some cannon hits righ where the tail attaches to the rear fuselage during a hard break turn. The tail seperated quite cleanly (just like it looks like in AH) and the plane started too tumble.
And yes I realize thats not the norm, but it did happen.
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On the anecdotal side, All 8th AF pilot accounts I've read, considered *any* twin engined plane an automatic kill.
Daff
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All these people whinning about the 110 being overmodeled should take a look at the Typh ... Ups! But it is not german ...
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Mandoble,
What's wrong with the Typhoon?
Please say as I don't know.
And leave off with the "conspiracy persecution complex". I, among many other, have pointed out errors where non-LW aircraft perform too well or have options they shouldn't. Including the Typhoon's roll rate back when it rolled too rapidly.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Mandoble,
What's wrong with the Typhoon?
Please say as I don't know.
And leave off with the "conspiracy persecution complex". I, among many other, have pointed out errors where non-LW aircraft perform too well or have options they shouldn't. Including the Typhoon's roll rate back when it rolled too rapidly.
There's nothing wrong with the Tiffy. It's a poor roller, not an especially good turner. It suffers from compressibility more than most, being a handful at high speeds. I find it to be modeled very nicely. Like many other "E" fighters, it requires discipline to score kills. Its marginal turning ability is offset by its speed. It rewards good judgement. I have flown it just 4 times this tour and have managed 8 kills to one combat loss, plus one muffed deadstick landing (running out of fuel because my field was capped, and I had to go elsewhere). Mandoble, if you have trouble with Typhoons, adjust your tactics. As for me, I have little problem with them, going 18/4 against it in the MA.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing,
He's not saying he has trouble killing/being killed by Typhoons, he's insinuating that it is over modeled.
I'd like to know how.
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Karnak, all was post in another thread about "D9 elevator authority".
Some of us decided to do a tests battery in the DA with several planes, Typh included.
This plane demostrated to be a "wonder" at hi speeds with an elevator authority well above the rest. In very pronounced dives we were unable to compress the thing, even more, where the other planes get stuck to trim control or just augered with no hope, Typh still had FULL elevator authority, even surpasing the spitIX, and never lost completely aileron control.
Basically, it demostrated to be a monster above 250mph, with very little E loose performing brutal recoveries where most of the planes were simply wingless.
Go to DA and do some tests with P47, P51, D9, La7, SpitIX, 190A8 and Typh and get your own conclussions.
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The Tiffie isn't exactly a 'monster'... besides, all this squeaking and moaning about how much this or that plane is porked is stupid and pointless. The 110G2 isnt a monster either. Well, unless you are in a buff, then it is a monster. A good pilot can hold his own in the 110, just like in any other plane.
The Tiffie has already been whacked with the nerf stick, no point in whacking it again. Its good points are it is reasonably fast and it has pretty good firepower, its bad points are just about everything else. It is like a British 190A8, but a little better.
One thing that does make me wonder- does anyone have any good data on the 109E4? I think it might be turning better than it should be, I always thought the F series was literally better at everything than the E series was. In Aces High the E4 outturns the F4. I've heard people saying it will outturn the SpitIX, but I haven't gotten a chance to try it yet. I did go round and round and round with a SpitV while I was in a 109E4 though.. I think it turns almost as well as the V does, but it could have been relative pilot ability (like I was turning my plane harder than he was turning his.. or flying closer to the edge of the envelope). Anyone have any experience with this?
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Originally posted by Urchin
It is like a British 190A8, but a little better.
No comments ... but u better go and do some serious tests with Typh before getting so "funny" conclussions.
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Well i think a-8 is much better. Roll is most important for me. General handling of a8 i like better too.
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Have they changed the A8 model in this new version?? At least, previous to 1.09, A8 was outturned, outaccelerated, outdived, outclimbed and outgunned by the Typh. Illo, sadly, rollrate is good almost only in the defensive, but is not a primary performance key.
Urchin, about 109E vs 109F, comparing wingloadings is a good starting point to get an idea about turning capabilities. AFAIK, 109E4 should outturn anyother 109 at slow speeds.
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I, among many other, have pointed out errors where non-LW aircraft perform too well or have options they shouldn't. Including the Typhoon's roll rate back when it rolled too rapidly.
And it's greatly appriciated Karnak!
However, Tiffie is a far better fighter then it was said to be during the war, so is the 110 IMO together with a bunch of other planes.
The tiffie DOES turn good, it can outturn a 4 gunned 190 A5 (which allso turns pretty good), it can outdive most things and doesn't compress easily, I don't know if it compressed easily in real life or not, it doesn't in AH though.
Just my view of it, not saying it is wrong just saying that there are a ton of airplanes in AH that seem to have a FAR better chance of survival then we would think of them judging from combat reports.
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Just an important note to add here, while planes like 110 and 190A where considered valid fighters till the end of the war, Typhs, from the very beginning were RE FU SED as valid fighters and were limited mainly to jabo roles till the Tempest arrival.
Do you consider our Typh as a mediocre fighter, remarkabily inferior to the SpitIX? For example, as you can see in the charts, Typh is still faster than SpitIX at 20k. It does 400mph at 20k WEP OFF, 190A8 does 380mhp WEP off and near 400 WEP on, SpitIX does 375 WEP off and 380 WEP on. At 25k Typh does 375mph WEP off, same as 190A8 WEP off. Typh only lacks of substained climb performance above 20k, but this is very different than zoom climb capability.
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Hi Wilbus,
>I don't know if it compressed easily in real life or not, it doesn't in AH though.
Though I don't have any quantitative data, compressbility was the number one problem for the Typhoon. Unlike most other contemporary fighters, it featured a very thick wing that induced very poor characteristics at high Mach numbers. It's telling that the Tempest, which was very much superior to the Typhoon in all respects, was essentially a Typhoon with thin wings.
In short, I'd expect the Typhoon to run into compressiblity problems very easily.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Well, HoHun, our Typh shines over almost any other fighter at control at very hi speeds, specially elevator control without need of using trims.
The only noticeable effect of the thick wing is a slower acceleration at already very hi speeds in a dive.
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"Do you consider our Typh as a mediocre fighter, remarkabily inferior to the SpitIX"
What's the purpose of comparing a 1944 Typhoon to a 1942 Spitfire?
Even then, arena usage suggests that most people DO in fact consider the Spit to be a much better fighter than the Typhoon.
BTW, the main reason the Typhoon was rejected as a fighter was lack of performance at altitude. When the fighting is being done at 25-30K, how the plane handles at low altitudes is of little relevence. Typhoons were put to good use in the role of intercepting low-altitude FW-190 raids and other tasks too, in addition to ground attack.
J_A_B
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Rgr Hohun, that thick wing should be a porblem,doesn't seem to be though.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
[BWhat's the purpose of comparing a 1944 Typhoon to a 1942 Spitfire?[/B]
J_A_B, our Typhoon MkIb is a 1941 plane, the 1944 one was the Tempest.
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illo, sadly, rollrate is good almost only in the defensive
I don't agree with this one. At least for me it's one of most importand qualities of plane in offensive. It makes possible to orientate yourself fast to counter new situations. In fast closure attacks it makes easy to put leadshot on opponent doing almost any evasive. It's just something I prefer. Maybe just because im used to flying 190As.
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
J_A_B, our Typhoon MkIb is a 1941 plane, the 1944 one was the Tempest.
This is not accurate. AH's version represents the typical Typhoon being delivered in 1944. This includes the bubble canopy and four blade propeller, neither of which were available in 1941. Moreover, early Typhoons suffered from several difficulties resolved in the version we fly. Weakness in the aft fuselage (resulting in the loss of the entire tailplane under high load), to name just one.
Don't try padding your argument by pointing to the early Mk.1b. We have a late war, fully developed Typhoon, not the early 1941, seriously problematic version.
Your point about compressibility is a good one, don't undermine your position by offering the under-developed early war examples in an effort add strength to that point. It'll stand on its own merit.
My regards,
Widewing
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What has the typhoon have to do with the 110G2? Hijacker. You are just trying to discredit me with inconclusive claims. and Wmaker quoting an earlier post "just in case of post editing". Implying that I am dishonest? I stand by it today. Pyro had already stated that the D11 was going to be fixed and yet Santa was having a bad day and decided to rant. I just called him on it. For context read the entire thread. This entire post has been diluted and is now meaningless.
The 110 is not some beast that cant be beaten in AH. Far from it. However I don't believe it should accerate like it does, dive like it does, and I am not sure whether its top speed is correct.
This was never meant to be an attack on LW enthusiests. When our D11 was found to be overweight, I am glad HTC made it right. I would think that you folks that claim to want realistic flight models would want the same for your 110G2, no?
Does anyone of you LW enthusiests have comprehensive data on the 110 series of AC?
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ammo, the data you are going to find everywhere is just top speed at some alt, dimensions, wingloading, weights and initial climb rate. Now try to find data to calculate propelor efficiency, drag coeficient, etc, it is like an impossible task.
Basically, you are not going to find easily anything definitive to find out how this plane should accelerate at any alt or dive from any alt.
What you feel about 110G is similar to what I feel about typh, and the only definitive factor we have against the superb hi speed control is just the wing thickness of the Typh.
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MANDOBLE,
Thanks for the direct response.
I don't know enough about Typhoon performance, but I have never read about it remaining remarkably light on the elevators as speed increased. I have read that about Spitfires, Mustangs and Fw190s though.
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Karnak, if you want and have time, we can repeat all the tests battery done almost a month ago with other players, you will be very surprised with our typh and very surprised also with our D9 (for very different reasons).
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Not required Mandoble, I take your word for it. (I also know about the D-9's high speed handling in AH having flown it quite often).
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
Basically, you are not going to find easily anything definitive to find out how this plane should accelerate at any alt or dive from any alt.
Perhaps, if really interested, freedom of information can get the intellegence reports from WW2? There are tons of information just waiting to be asked for so it can be released.
Dashe
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Where do you ask for such things Dashe?
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Where do you ask for such things Dashe?
Wilbus, I think I would start by writing to the Dept. of Army, and the National Archives. First request access to all materials retained on the subject of the BF110 series aircraft, and a listing of any still classified documents.
Be aware that these requests may take a while to process and make determinations on, but if there is no response in 60 days request an explaination for the lack of response.
If neither of the above get's reasonable results, just e-mail me and I'll research the next steps, but my hunch is that there are no longer any classified documents (unless they simply haven't been looked at in the last 20 years), and that both agencies will be happy to do what they cn, especially the Archives.
Dashe
billrata@attbi.com
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Ok, thanks, I am Swedish, how da hell do I get in touch with them? ;)
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Ok, thanks, I am Swedish, how da hell do I get in touch with them? ;)
I would start online, US Government. That should have e-mail access or all the snail address's too. You should also look at the FOI act description.
Dashe
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Thanks :)
Do you know if it costs alot?
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Thanks :)
Do you know if it costs alot?
At most it should be copying charges, is the docs aren't available online or in a publication, like a Jane's Historical.
Dashe
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Ohoh MAN! I'm gonna empty them for information! Didn't know this was possible!
*laughs evil*
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Originally posted by Wilbus
Ohoh MAN! I'm gonna empty them for information! Didn't know this was possible!
*laughs evil*
After the disclosures about secret files and using security to hide agency problems, Congress was forced to pass the FOI, making it mandatory that all government agencies must make public all information not currently of a sensative nature at the request of individuals. It even goes to the point that they have to release most information even if it requires "reasonable" redactions.
Teach them to lie about a war and our intelligence operations (solence is ok, lying get's you retirement).
Dashe
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Ummm.... Its not that simple to get data from the US Gov.
Trust me I've went to ALOT more effort while looking for much more specific information. (the wider they have to search, the less effort they put into it)
Your best bet, is to contact the US Air Force Museum in Dayton OH (info is on their website along with instructions for data requests) and the National Air & Space Museum.
Be as specific as possible in your data requests.
Otherwise your just pissing into the wind.
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Originally posted by Vermillion
Ummm.... Its not that simple to get data from the US Gov.
Trust me I've went to ALOT more effort while looking for much more specific information. (the wider they have to search, the less effort they put into it)
Your best bet, is to contact the US Air Force Museum in Dayton OH (info is on their website along with instructions for data requests) and the National Air & Space Museum.
Be as specific as possible in your data requests.
Otherwise your just pissing into the wind.
For the best results, contact the:
Air Force Historical Research Agency
Phone: (334) 953-2395
E-mail: AFHRANEWS@maxwell.af.mil
600 Chennault Circle, Bldg 1405
Maxwell AFB, AL 36112-6424
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
For the best results, contact the:
Air Force Historical Research Agency
Phone: (334) 953-2395
E-mail: AFHRANEWS@maxwell.af.mil
600 Chennault Circle, Bldg 1405
Maxwell AFB, AL 36112-6424
My regards,
Widewing
Fact is, there are times when the government is surprisingly quick at getting documents out, if they have been called for in the last 20 years. lol Just never know when or why. The alternatives may have the detail Wilbus wants, but if they don't I am simply giving him a starting point.
Dashe
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ok ive done some tests on the 110g2 and the p38 off line taking off of a bas at 500ft altitude
ALL CLIMB SPEEDS AT 160 mph:
ALL FUEL 100% full ammo loadouts
ALL sustained climb rates (ignored fluctuating initial rates)
110g2 : P38L
up to 10k
2600ft/min : 3100ft/min
with wep;
2750ft/min : 3500ft/min
from 10k up to 20k non wep;
10k... 2200ft/min : 3000ft/min
12k... 2100ft/min : 2800ft/min
13.5k... 2000ft/min : 2800ft/min
15k... 1900ft/min : 2750ft/min
16k... 1800ft/min : 2700ft/min
17k... 1750ft/min : 2700ft/min
18k... 1700ft/min : 2650ft/min
19k... 1600ft/min : 2600ft/min
20k... 1500ft/min : 2550ft/min
then adding wep at 20k;
1600ft/min : 2650ft/min
then leveling out at 21k and accelerating non wep;
365-370 mph : 390mph
time taken to get to that speed;
@8-9 minutes : @ 2-3 minutes
then at top speed adding wep;
@1 minute... 373mph : 400mph
@2 minutes... 375mph : 401-402mph
@3 minutes... 375mph : 402mph
both remain steady at this speed from then on.
then just for kicks i added to the;
110G2 2x500kg bombs+4 rockets : P38L 2x1000lb bombs+10 rockets
and again climbed to 10k
non wep;
1-5k... 1850-1900ft/min : 2300ft/min
5k... 1800ft/min : 2250ft/min
10k... 1600ft/min : 2200ft/min
also a final test roll time at 350mph
7 seconds : 5 seconds
real uber the 110 eh?
now if someone could come up with data from the real planes i could compare it but as it stands i dont see anything great about the g2 performance.If anything it loses climb(or degrades) a lot faster than the twin engined p38.but with superchargers etc who knows it could be correct.
AMMO
just as ive been blasted in the past by many allied types if you want to question performance you have to provide testing in AH or data from real life or you should be told like me that you have no business posting things like this.
However my personal opinion is that your post is justified if you 'feel' its behaving rediculously or unusually and would like others to help you see whats right or wrong with their so called 'data charts' :).After all its exactly what i was asking in my posts only im LW so that immediately made me a whiner thanks to Rude,SW and his mates :)
Ive just done these tests but for the life of me I dont know what or how these will help.All i see from my tests is that the p38 is by far the better climber, the faster accelerating,the better bomb carrier(as in less performance hit with full loadout) and seems to have the better handling. So why complain about the G2 being an uber ride??
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Originally posted by hazed-
ok ive done some tests on the 110g2 and the p38 off line taking off of a bas at 500ft altitude
ALL CLIMB SPEEDS AT 160 mph:
ALL FUEL 100% full ammo loadouts
ALL sustained climb rates (ignored fluctuating initial rates)
110g2 : P38L
up to 10k
2600ft/min : 3100ft/min
with wep;
2750ft/min : 3500ft/min
from 10k up to 20k non wep;
10k... 2200ft/min : 3000ft/min
12k... 2100ft/min : 2800ft/min
13.5k... 2000ft/min : 2800ft/min
15k... 1900ft/min : 2750ft/min
16k... 1800ft/min : 2700ft/min
17k... 1750ft/min : 2700ft/min
18k... 1700ft/min : 2650ft/min
19k... 1600ft/min : 2600ft/min
20k... 1500ft/min : 2550ft/min
then adding wep at 20k;
1600ft/min : 2650ft/min
then leveling out at 21k and accelerating non wep;
365-370 mph : 390mph
time taken to get to that speed;
@8-9 minutes : @ 2-3 minutes
then at top speed adding wep;
@1 minute... 373mph : 400mph
@2 minutes... 375mph : 401-402mph
@3 minutes... 375mph : 402mph
both remain steady at this speed from then on.
then just for kicks i added to the;
110G2 2x500kg bombs+4 rockets : P38L 2x1000lb bombs+10 rockets
and again climbed to 10k
non wep;
1-5k... 1850-1900ft/min : 2300ft/min
5k... 1800ft/min : 2250ft/min
10k... 1600ft/min : 2200ft/min
also a final test roll time at 350mph
7 seconds : 5 seconds
real uber the 110 eh?
now if someone could come up with data from the real planes i could compare it but as it stands i dont see anything great about the g2 performance.If anything it loses climb(or degrades) a lot faster than the twin engined p38.but with superchargers etc who knows it could be correct.
AMMO
just as ive been blasted in the past by many allied types if you want to question performance you have to provide testing in AH or data from real life or you should be told like me that you have no business posting things like this.
However my personal opinion is that your post is justified if you 'feel' its behaving rediculously or unusually and would like others to help you see whats right or wrong with their so called 'data charts' :).After all its exactly what i was asking in my posts only im LW so that immediately made me a whiner thanks to Rude,SW and his mates :)
Ive just done these tests but for the life of me I dont know what or how these will help.All i see from my tests is that the p38 is by far the better climber, the faster accelerating,the better bomb carrier(as in less performance hit with full loadout) and seems to have the better handling. So why complain about the G2 being an uber ride??
Nice Data
This proves that our Bf-110G2 isn't uber, i almost started rolling on the floor when i heard "Uber Bf110" originally :D
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Soviet,
Keep in mind that when the Mosquito VI was introduced people, including the P-38 fans, were saying that it was too powerful and would need to be perked if it weren't found to be overmodeled and nerfed.
Well, it wasn't found to be over modeled, it wasn't nerfed and it hardly needed to be perked.
I think the Bf110G-2 will see the same pattern.
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LOL Hazed, great blast in the face of the whine-cheer-stapo group Tm ;)
You should add to your tests some one with the .target command noticing the 1.3k yards hits with the P38 (this thing outclimbs a 190A8+DT even loeaded with maximum ordenance) ...
Congrats in your tests.
After having some flights with 110G, I, sincerely, cant see the point of these whines. It is a mediocre fighter, excelent for HOs and a last chance defense with the tail peashooter, but nothing special compared with almost anything else.
All the USA iron will outrun, outaccelerate and outclimb it (probably also the F4U1A). All the RAF iron will outclimb and outturn it, the Typh will out-anything it. G2 is nothing but a good armed LW plane with a decent turning compared with late war planes.
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MANDOBLE,
I'd be very surprised if the Mosquito will either out turn it or out climb it.
Out run it, yes. I've already used that to escape from several Bf110G-2's in the Mossie.
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Well Karnak, I dont count the Mosquito as a fighter. Perhaps a good night fighter sometime, but not really a fighter in our environment. Sooner or later, the same would be applied to the 110G.
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Originally posted by -ammo-
and Wmaker quoting an earlier post "just in case of post editing". Implying that I am dishonest? I stand by it today. Pyro had already stated that the D11 was going to be fixed and yet Santa was having a bad day and decided to rant. I just called him on it.
I wasn't implying anything. I'm "treat others the way you like to be treated" kind of guy and was pointing out the way you had treated people before who had made the same kind of question about a plane's performance in AH. Just showing that there was a reason for posts like the one Staga posted...Why do you expect mercy when you yourself give none?
Originally posted by StSanta
I've got a feeling that the razorback p47 is a tad bit too maneuverable - or said in other words, either retains e too well or just gets around too fast.
From what I've read, it's approximately the same weight as other jugs. It's heavier than 190's.
Is it just my "feeling" that it's too light or does someone else have it too?
Not a whine, just an inquiry
I don't see the rant you are talking about here. There was absolutely no reason to call him on this. What exactly makes your post any different than his? And how you can be so sure StSanta had seen Pyro's statement about D-11's lightness? I think judging from StSanta's post it's pretty obvious that he hadn't seen it or didn't remember reading it at the time he made that post otherwise it would have been very different or not posted at all.
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Be advised, the Bf 110G-2 was pulled for a quick remodel job.
One change was to add drag for the underwing ordnance, which was not factored in for the original release.
Overall, the 110 is now somewhat less potent than it was on the first day of the new release.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Wmaker
I don't see the rant you are talking about here. There was absolutely no reason to call him on this. What exactly makes your post any different than his? And how you can be so sure StSanta had seen Pyro's statement about D-11's lightness? I think judging from StSanta's post it's pretty obvious that he hadn't seen it or didn't remember reading it at the time he made that post otherwise it would have been very different or not posted at all.
Who i asking for "mercy"? You arent hurting me, nor do I care what you may think. People in the AH community know that i am not some whiner.
You state that it is obvious that santa didnt know that Pyro had announced that that the D11 was going to be fixed? here is the post where he stated it. the date is in June. http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28193 Not only that, but this was news that was discussed in the arena's, and seversal other threads. I believe he had an idea. Alot of LW guys were a bit sour about how the D11 handled. ( I imagine you were too)
Here is his post in August http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25997 which is titled the "jugfire". The title doesnt lead a Jug nut like me to believe its just a meager question. Besides, I like santa, my comment was in jest. he got pissed at me and replied and I answered again. It is old news, that you have drug up to strengthen staga's slander of me. My question of the 110's performance was on day one, and it is relevant. More than I was curious about its performance. I didnt throw eggs at any LW flyers, just questioned the AC.
Widewing is right, the AC has already changed, or so it seems. The thing still performs VERY well at low altitude. I think it accelerates too well under 10K, and I think its top speed is too high (significantly) at all altitudes. I have not read anywhere in all my searching where any model of 110 would do 379 TAS at 22K. Nor Do I believe that it would do 345 TAS at 4K. However, I cant find any document that states the figures of the G2, only the C series and the G4. I could be proven wrong, and that will be OK with me if I get to see the data.
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Heh that whine was well hidden :p
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Originally posted by -ammo-
Who i asking for "mercy"? You arent hurting me, nor do I care what you may think.
Originally posted by -ammo-
Mercy please. Just answer the question if you know about the 110. I am not whining. It is a twin engined attack AC, its not supposed to dogfight with the best of the single engine AC.
...Nor do I want to hurt you in any way. But as you can see I just used the same impression in my statement as you used in your post...I gather that that mercy plea was directed to me and Staga.
Originally posted by -ammo-
You state that it is obvious that santa didnt know that Pyro had announced that that the D11 was going to be fixed? here is the post where he stated it. the date is in June. http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=28193 Not only that, but this was news that was discussed in the arena's, and seversal other threads. I believe he had an idea.
Well, there isn't a single reply by Santa in that thread and I think it's fairly possible to forget one sentence in one month. :) And if it was discussed or not doesn't make it a fact that he had payed attention on it. Well, I think this is pretty pointless when we can ask Santa himself about this. :)
Originally posted by -ammo-
Alot of LW guys were a bit sour about how the D11 handled. ( I imagine you were too)
I don't remember if "LW-guys" were sour or not. But I remember that I wasn't suspecting that anything was wrong in the D-11 before pyro made that post. When I read that I was like "Oops, they had a little snafu, glad they found it and it is been fixed." It was so great to hear that the FMs in general recieved attention and found inaccuracies were being fixed that D-11 being too light didn't really bother me. :)
Originally posted by -ammo-
Here is his post in August http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=25997 which is titled the "jugfire". The title doesnt lead a Jug nut like me to believe its just a meager question. Besides, I like santa, my comment was in jest. he got pissed at me and replied and I answered again. It is old news, that you have drug up to strengthen staga's slander of me.
I understand what you are saying about the title. Tough, I think it was made to draw attention to the subject and well you know Santa and his funny banter on channel 1 :) I think it was just Santa's kind of title :) and I'm sure he tought that "Not a white, just an inquiry." in the end of the post would do the trick. ;) The fact that he got pissed just enforces my belief that he hadn't seen/didn't remember Pyro's post about D-11 being too light.
Ammo, I think of you as one of the good guys and respect you as an opponent. ;) That old thread just came to my mind right away when I saw this thread...before I read Staga's reply. Both, Santa and you talked about maneuverability for example. I just don't see how you replied something like that without any smilies to Santa (you said it was a jest) and then think of your thread as different.
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Im finding it hard to find data on the G2 also ammo but consider this:
earliest 110C-1 top speed 336mph with 1,050hp engines
all G series had 1,475hp engines and substantial improvements from an aerodynamic point of veiw.
the G4 had radar antenae and equiptment (plus supplimentary fuel tanks i think, but not sure) which reduced its speed and increased its weight considerably
as to this non-productive attack on stsanta just because he has said something about your post being almost identical to his and saying just that why dont you consider your reply to his post?
To me it appears to be designed purely to annoy him even if it is said in jest:
"Oh no brother bluto!.. Those P47 guys are just too mean. It cannot be true that their ugly green plane is superior to our manly Messerschmidts...!!!!
ammo "
Why dont you just admit this situation is pretty much identical only reversed and you have had a taste of what annoys us.
we dont want unfair advantage, we dont consider ourselves superior (btw when we joke about this its designed to take the piss out of the german officer/SS stereo type) but what we do want to see is what everyone can read about, and that is that much of the war as the germans introduced new aircraft and weapons they were excellent. The fact they held back the allies for so long and managed to inflict damage and surprise our forces time and again under such immense pressure from all sides should be recognised.
Im not German, Im British.Im proud of what we did and I would in no way ever want to praise or help the cause of that hideous regeme.When you drift away from joking to imply we are some sort of supporters of that then you make us angry.Like ive said time and time again, I like the planes because as a kid i made those models, I like the bad guys in star wars, I liked the Romans the vikings etc etc and in games i like to play those parts for the fun derived from it.
when you imply anything deeper it just pisses me off.
and lets just drop this nationalistic crap. Ill accept im weaponalistic(? :D) but only because I want to see just why they were so damn hard to finish off when they faced enormous odds.
Im in stsantas squad and he isnt a whiner nor is he a nazi or any of this crap hes accused of being.Hes just another player of this game who happens to like these planes and probably for the same reasons i do.
Ammo just a test: in Starwars movie, which did you prefer? the X-wing or the Tie-fighter? :D
oh and by the way nice spin deftly turning the subject away from the G2 to the new subject 'persecution of ammo by stsanta' and your innocence in the whole sorry subject.:)
your veiws on my test please?
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Tie Fighter!!!!! Tie Fighter!!!!! :)
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TIE interceptor by far! The only thing that comes close is the B-wing.
F.
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Tie Fighter is 109.
Tie Interceptor is 190.
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Originally posted by hazed-
Im finding it hard to find data on the G2 also ammo but consider this:
earliest 110C-1 top speed 336mph with 1,050hp engines
all G series had 1,475hp engines and substantial improvements from an aerodynamic point of veiw.
the G4 had radar antenae and equiptment (plus supplimentary fuel tanks i think, but not sure) which reduced its speed and increased its weight considerably
as to this non-productive attack on stsanta just because he has said something about your post being almost identical to his and saying just that why dont you consider your reply to his post?
To me it appears to be designed purely to annoy him even if it is said in jest:
"Oh no brother bluto!.. Those P47 guys are just too mean. It cannot be true that their ugly green plane is superior to our manly Messerschmidts...!!!!
ammo "
Why dont you just admit this situation is pretty much identical only reversed and you have had a taste of what annoys us.
we dont want unfair advantage, we dont consider ourselves superior (btw when we joke about this its designed to take the piss out of the german officer/SS stereo type) but what we do want to see is what everyone can read about, and that is that much of the war as the germans introduced new aircraft and weapons they were excellent. The fact they held back the allies for so long and managed to inflict damage and surprise our forces time and again under such immense pressure from all sides should be recognised.
Im not German, Im British.Im proud of what we did and I would in no way ever want to praise or help the cause of that hideous regeme.When you drift away from joking to imply we are some sort of supporters of that then you make us angry.Like ive said time and time again, I like the planes because as a kid i made those models, I like the bad guys in star wars, I liked the Romans the vikings etc etc and in games i like to play those parts for the fun derived from it.
when you imply anything deeper it just pisses me off.
and lets just drop this nationalistic crap. Ill accept im weaponalistic(? :D) but only because I want to see just why they were so damn hard to finish off when they faced enormous odds.
Im in stsantas squad and he isnt a whiner nor is he a nazi or any of this crap hes accused of being.Hes just another player of this game who happens to like these planes and probably for the same reasons i do.
Ammo just a test: in Starwars movie, which did you prefer? the X-wing or the Tie-fighter? :D
oh and by the way nice spin deftly turning the subject away from the G2 to the new subject 'persecution of ammo by stsanta' and your innocence in the whole sorry subject.:)
your veiws on my test please?
What is all this? What spin? I was defending againt those statements against me. Nobody else is going to defend ammo. And no-one is attacking santa, no-one. You are making more out of this than needs to be. Its getting rediculous. Before you edited this post and added all this fluff, I could understand but after all the pointed agumentative crap, you lost me.
As per your test, I got different numbers, but essentially the same margins. I configured the AC clean, 25% fuel. I got 3100 FPM climb while you got 2750 loaded, sounds about right for me. When testing max speeds, I give them a little help by diving them and letting them settle. I never said that the 110 was superior to the P-47, or the P-38. Especially at higher alts where my main ride dominates:). Again, back to the subject. I think it accelerates to fast at low alt for a heavy twin attack AC, I think its top speed is high (but I cant prove it). However I would think that of the numbers published on all the 110 series, we would see the highest ones somewhere. If indeed the G2 actually was pushing 380 TAS then I think we would have read this somewhere. Here is hoofs G2/R3 page which is based on the performance of the WB's 110G2/R3 http://www.rdrop.com/users/hoofj/Bf110G2.htm
the max speeds listed on this page are in IAS (I dont recall WB's having a TAS indicator). He shows the 110 at 300 IAS @ 5K, I just ran my test again (climb to 8K, dive to 5K wep, and sustain for 4 minutes. The TAS shows 345, while the IAS shows 325. Try it yourself. I got a film to send to you if you like.
Now that is for the WB's 110, which was designed by the same folks that bring you AH. They do alot of research and put alot of effort into their FM's, then and now. That doesnt mean they can be a little off.
here is some more stuff I found---
http://dup.sly.free.fr/avions/mess110.htm
http://www.geocities.com/Pentagon/7404/bf110.htm
http://www.hotel.wineasy.se/ipms/stuff_eng_detail_bf110g.htm
http://www.accessweb.com/users/mconstab/me110.htm
http://www.supaero.fr/page-perso/promo_02/moret/encyclo/bf110.htm
http://exn.ca/FlightDeck/Aviators/MesserschmittBf110.cfm
I dont have any nationalistic agenda hazed, and I hold no grudges. I dont care why you like like LW AC. Its enough that you (or anyone) spend your hard earned money to enjoy this game. I like the p47 and the 56th FG for what they were, a piece of valiant history. I like WW2 AC. I like it so much that I have spent as much as $250 a month to fly them virtually (no kidding).
No hard feelings here at all, I still think the 110G2 is off, but, as you say its not exactly the hottest ride in the arena. But as long as the AC are "right", not "hot", thats what important to me.
see ya in the arena, you to wmaker.
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I always thought the Milliniem Falcon was the coolest, but it was definately overmodeled. Han claimed it ran the kessel run way too fast. something like 2,000,000 parsects
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ammo see ya up there