Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: eye on July 04, 2000, 10:59:00 PM
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I read a interesting article about wb on dogfighter.com
It was about the wb con and wb3.
Guy said that wb's got hacked alot.
that they kicked people off every day.
I was just wondering if this happens here?
I felt it happened alot in aw3. When ever it came up guys would say " No way im not hacked."
They would call you crazy.
I just found it interesting that one of their guys would admit it.
You guys might want to check out what he said was going on.
I wish they would of said if it was a free use thing or guys hacking plane performance.
EYE
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I believe that there is no such childish pilots who find feel joy by cheating FM in AH.
I met so many people here who don't satisfy WB's FM.
however one of the reason is that WB is more easier than AH.
(Can I say chasing hard core sim?)
Do you want to play golf without any rule even if you can play like Tiger Woods?
Does anyone want to fly on zeke with F-16 FM & engine in MA ?
on the other hand, I believe that
the pilots in AH are proud of own wingman, enemy and current AH community.
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Hacking happenes fairly seldom in WB. And I am guessing it happens as often (or as seldom) in WB as it does in AH.
Please don't start another WB vs AH pissing contest. Life's too short...
Thrax
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What Thrax said.
danish
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I think eye is just curious how hacking is handled in AH. He used AW3 and WB in his statement of the topic. Didn't sound like any kind of pissing contest to me.
This is a very good question and I'm sure everyone out there would love to hear how HTC is preventing AH from getting hacked.
OK ... maybe the title could have been worded differently. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Exile (edited 07-05-2000).]
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Guy said that wb's got hacked alot.
that they kicked people off every day.
These people are not being kicked off because someone thinks they are hacking. They are being kicked off because the server detected they were trying to hack.
The same people that wrote the hacking detection program that "kicked people off every day" wrote AH.
AKDejaVu
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Only 2 incidents in 2 years that I know of on WB, but as stated above, the code detects hacked data before they get a chance to fly it, and I'm sure it does the same thing here.
Lizking
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No one could ever accuse EYE of having his facts straight, let alone knowing even what the facts are.
This is EYE's compulsion. He sees hackers and cheats behind every rock. And they're out to get his "points" !
-Westy
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Lem: For the year 2000, are you thinking of going more open source. More and more companies are going open source, using the power of the community?
Hotseat: I want to do that for the art, but I can't do that for the game. We're hacked daily. You have no idea how many people we kick off every week, because we can't publish it. If I kicked you off tomorrow Jay or me are not allowed to go out and say we kicked off Lem. You'd just disappear.
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This is a dangerous path to enter, even if you mention no other sims. What always happens is the camps divide on the "yes, I know there are hackers" and the "no, no one hacks here" border. Inevitably someone posts a screen or quotes a comment, and the witch hunt is on.
Best to leave this stuff alone on a public forum. If you have definitive, irrefutable proof mail it in by all means. That said, it should be remembered that people are people, and there are probably just as many people trying to cheat here as anywhere else (whatever that means). Best to assume the best in everyone you meet, because life's too short to stress over whether the guy that just killed you is cheating or not.
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Well said Kieren
Seen the cheat witchhunt destroy games and servers in the past. Posting that here was likely a mistake in judgement on your part EYE. I know u didn't say AH specifically, just the term "hacker" is enough..
The word "cheat" or "cheater" said aloud in the MA creates paranoia. Thank COD ya can squelch chnnl 1...
I'd be willing to bet that the % of players that even atempt to cheat is <5%, and of the tiny percentage, probably only a few ever succeed.
My thots..
SKurj
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What kieren said.
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I played a fair bit of WB and more DOA than I care to admit, and other than the odd newbie elevator warping I can say I never seen anything that I would say was definate cheating. Same thing here. When I die its my own damn fault.
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Right on Kieren
That is one witch hunt we can do without here.
Whatever the situation it's really not OUR problem. We have to trust HT to give us a fair playing envoirment, and I've seen no reason not to thus far.
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Lem: For the year 2000, are you thinking of going more open source. More and more companies are going open source, using the power of the community?
Hotseat: I want to do that for the art, but I can't do that for the game. We're hacked daily. You have no idea how many people we kick off every week, because we can't publish it. If I kicked you off tomorrow Jay or me are not allowed to go out and say we kicked off Lem. You'd just disappear.
ROTFLMAO! HS must have to special order hats big enough to fit on his head. I always love it when someone uses figures that he "can't disclose" in an argument. I especially like the "they just disappear" statement... is there really a "hacker" gustapo out there? Do they really come to your house?
As for the initial question... open source for an on-line flight sim? What a question.
AKDejaVu
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Originally posted by AKDejaVu:
ROTFLMAO! HS must have to special order hats big enough to fit on his head. I always love it when someone uses figures that he "can't disclose" in an argument. I especially like the "they just disappear" statement... is there really a "hacker" gustapo out there? Do they really come to your house?
As for the initial question... open source for an on-line flight sim? What a question.
AKDejaVu
Hmm are u sayin WB's should publish that their software has been hacked X number of times... WB's does pretty well at self strangulation as is...
SKurj
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Hmm are u sayin WB's should publish that their software has been hacked X number of times...
Nope. Maybe saying "People have attempted to crack Warbirds" and leaving it at that would have been fine. "We're hacked daily" but "we can't disclose how often" is pretty damn funny.
The whole thing puts me in mind of Special Forces troops in the United States' military. If you talk with them... their job sounds so exciting and cool. If you work with them... you find out the truth.
WB's does pretty well at self strangulation as is...
You probably won't get many disagreeing with this statement on either the AH site or the AGW site.
AKDejaVu
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I found it pretty cool they would admit that people try to hack wb. I give them points for being honest.
The discussion i though was about players ,the community makeing planes /teraines or tanks and stuff. Custom artwork?
The reason they did not want a whole lot of it for wb3 was because they didnt want ufo's running around.
Could not a user made program have a back door ?
To get your password or something?
I forget who said it but yes i would love to know if this is possible or how people do it?
Do they try to just fly for free?
Has anyone ever been caught with a hot rod plane?
Westy btw this post was for you i hope you read the article.
EYE
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It all depends on what you want to be customizable. If they allow the users to make terrain... just what hacks will be possible? If they allow the users to design the aircraft... what hacks will be possible?
I think HTC is moving in the right direction with the terrain editor. Doing any more than that in the on-line format would not be advisable.
By the way... noticing a comment in a previous post... the Warbirds anti-hacking code does not allow the player in. While hacking may be attempted... it was not prevelant in the game.
AKDejaVu
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People attempt to hack WB on a daily basis, I know becasue I personally talked to Jay about it.
He says that hackers attempt several times DAILY and they catch people red handed weekly and ban people. Except for the two or so publicly caught people, they do not announce who is banned. Those people just 'dissapear' from the online skies.
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There were (and probably are) a bunch of warp cheats for WB that I bet work pretty well in AH. I don't use them. Last night Jinx and I ran into a couple of Spits that did a little warp dance once it was clear they were about to die. We just flew off and left them there.
Probably just encourages them to cheat more, but really who the diddly cares? Pretty soon they'll get bored because warp cheat or no, they can't legitimately grab anyone's 6.
As for hacking the flight model itself, that's gotta be really tough. Hex editor or no, SoftICE or no, that can't be easy. Not to mention that the code self-checksums the models and checks against the server for things like ammo not decrementing. Of course, some can't resist the challenge. But they aren't pilots. They're hackers, and this game is no different to them than Interstate 76. Mastering the game is a drag for them, they'd rather diddly it up for everyone and show how smart they are.
BTW, I remember the first time I logged into an I76 server and saw a caddy with something like 12 missle launchers on it and unlimited ammo which couldn't be killed. I must have toyed with it (and died to it) about 2 dozen times. Then I logged out and de-installed the game from my Hard drive since I finished single player, and noted that Activision wrote toejam multiplayer code and to avoid their stuff in the future.
Same goes for Diablo II. I read the newsgroups and NOBODY wants to play D2 on battle.net because of the hacking fiasco that was D1. A big reason why I think Blizzard added direct TCP/IP play.
If I find out that AH is seriously hacked, I'm just going to organize a 4v4 server league with people I trust until it's fixed. I have confidence that if anybody can cut that toejam out, it's HT, whose multiplayer position code has a whoopee patent.
XX
Swearing so much I'm becoming DoK.
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You must make the distinction between ATTEMPTED hacking, an actual in-game hack and a cheat.
So far as I know, there is no in-game hacking in AH or WB, even though, as HS said, there are a lot of attempted hacks. HTC will not say anything about it, I bet, but I am sure they have the same problem with attempts, if not more than WB because of the 2 week trial. Who cares, they don't get in, so it is a moot point on attempted hacks.
In-game cheats are there, in any game, it is a matter of the community policing itself, as this one and the WB community do so well, the occasional witch hunt not withstanding.
Lizking
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Supposedly WB host checks your FE for hacks and if it finds any, it doesn't allow you online. There is also a way for the guys at iEN to "interrogate" your system manually in some way, which is how they apparently detect your hacking directly. I was actually online once when someone was "caught" and ejected (but not kicked out of the game completely). The only fairly public instances I'm aware of involved guys hacking not the FE, but the network interface system itself, enabling, among other things, armament to be changed so that, for example, your otto tail gunner is firing a 37mm cannon with laser accuracy at your head. It was also supposedly possible to send damage packets not related to actual damage inflicted, such as "destroy all parts of target aircraft now." Slight advantage there, eh? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Seems to me it would be kinda stupid to explain the workings of either the hack detection system or the hack prevention system, wouldn't it? Sorta like explaining all the different alarm systems in your house. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As for how prevalent cheating is, well, right now AH has the advantage of being a happy little family where everyone just wants to be virtual pilots and say "good fight!" on common channel and drink beer and stuff. But, assuming the game becomes the top online flight sim and has thousands of customers, you're gonna see a LARGE percentage of that customer base to whom the "mystique of WW2 air combat" is WAAAAY secondary to the mystique of "winning" and "keeeeling" other players.
And if you don't think a significant percentage of those guys are going to be willing AND able to "cheat," well, I'd say you're being a bit naive. I'd even hazard a guess that some of the guys ejected from WB are even now working on "cracking" AH. And I wouldn't expect to hear much out of HTC on the nature of their preventative measures...
--jedi
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These crys of cheat crack me up. If you went to a basketball game, and team A put 5 players on the floor. And team B put 15 out there. You would probably think B was cheating pretty bad. In this game nobdy thinks twice about gang banging (the biggest cheat of all).
Before they dumbed down the guns. You had a fighting chance against 2 or 3 cons. Now all they have to do is pick at you til your dead. Just like WB.
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 07-05-2000).]
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Easymo-If I gave you a million bucks in twenty dollar bills, you would piss and moan because they weren't in 100's. Get a grip, man.
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easymo you are mad (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
what do you think happened in RL?..john wayne woulda shot all 3 down of course but if im bounced by 3 planes i expect to lose.
you obviously think your so good they ought to surrender (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
and he asked for 10 dollar bills....
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Wow nice posts guys.
Very informative its nice to see people with knowledge that will share it.
Its also nice not to be verbaly attacked for bringing the subject up.
One more thing? What if you have a guy who wants to dump your connect? or to increase your delay.
In aw3 i had a guy who liked to play this game with me. How did he do it?
Anybody? How do you defend yourself? Are there any defenses?
EYE
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Guys, Easymo (correct me if I'm wrong TT/Slate/Easymo) is not interested in WW2 simulations. If it detracts from his personal gameplay likes and dislikes, he's against it, regardless of any historical factors. Why he doesn't play TIE Fighter Vs X-Wing is beyond me.
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 07-06-2000).]
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Xwing alliance rocks funked
dont underestamate the power of the far fetched side (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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How very strange you should moan about cheating in that context, seems its been going on for years and both Allies and Axis cheated if the recollections of Feldwebel Fritz Buchholz (II/JG6) is anything to go by, he gangbanged a bunch of P38's from the 394th Sqdrn only to be gangbanged himself by the US re-inforcements...damn cheats! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Originally posted by eye:
I found it pretty cool they would admit that people try to hack wb. I give them points for being honest.
EYE
LOLOL HT could say the same thing, because I guarantee you people are trying to hack AH as well. Its not even worth printing, because only a VERY ignorant individual would think otherwise. They may never succeed, but tis human nature. Trying, and succeeding are 2 different things.
(btw no i'm not trying)
SKurj
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Correct me if I am wrong, but didn't HiTech learn to hack the AW FE to eventually create CK (WB's)??? Why that thought sticks in my mind is beyond me, I'm probably wrong....
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Originally posted by eye:
One more thing? What if you have a guy who wants to dump your connect? or to increase your delay.
In aw3 i had a guy who liked to play this game with me. How did he do it?
Anybody? How do you defend yourself? Are there any defenses?
EYE
He didn't EYE, he would have to find out your IP address. Which he cannot get from aw. AND i doubt very much he "knew" it was u coming everytime..
U just got hit with coincidences
SKurj
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I think hacking is a much over hyped issue...BUT...I know for a fact that hacking did exist in AW, and it is one of the reasons I was so receptive to AH when it came out. If WB admits that it's an issue at that scale then I'd have to accept that as a factual statement. In the end it's up to HT and Pyro to prevent it becoming an issue. My understanding is that the tools to prevent/detect hacking a program are evolving continually. I think AW and WB have a greater problem based on size of community and the "static" nature of the program...you'd be hard pressed to keep up with AH I think.
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Correct Skurj. Someone who has a static IP address, like users of cable modem or dsl, is more at the mercy of someone doing a constant ping or traceroute on them than someone with a dial up ISP account. The only way someone could have gotten his IP addy is if he'd posted on an NNTP newsgroup and someone grabbed his IP from the header before he went to fly online.
There is no way for someone, not in the employ of the game company, to know what your connecting IP address is.
Even if a person chose to screw with someone else online they would need to use a second machine to ping, do a constant tracerte, IAM or whatever to the victim because if they did it with the machine they were flying on it too would become as bogged down and effected like the victims pc.
I think EYE is just a bit too gullible on alot of this cheat and hack stuff and takes what people say out of context or not with enough grains of salt.
-Westy
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Your right about one thing funky. The list of things that are unrealistic is endless. And always will be. This is a GAME. Therefore it is gameplay essues that interest me.
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Hugs and bullits
EZ
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Originally posted by eye:
One more thing? What if you have a guy who wants to dump your connect? or to increase your delay.
(...) How do you defend yourself? Are there any defenses?
Begin by installing a personal firewall. It will block all attempts, in fact it will not answer any external requests, therefore hindering an Internet hooligan's efforts.
I haven't tested how it affects gameplay, or if it affects frame rate, but back in WB I noticed no significant effect on delay or frame rate.
I'm using ZoneAlarm (http://www.zonelabs.com). It's a squeak every time there is an AH update (the game will lock up the first, maybe second time, then in the firewall's setup I will be able to specify that the new AH is to be given Internet access) but I sure feel more secure on my cable modem.
My ISP doesn't really like ZoneAlarm though, and they recommend either ConSEAL or Norton Internet Security, but both are commercial products.
That being said, I seriously doubt any player has the ability to determine your IP address when you're in the arena, and I don't believe anyone from the AH community(apart from HTC personnel (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) ) can raise hell with your connection when you're online.
Not if you don't allow determining your IP address by openly (and unknowingly) advertising your IP address beforehand on IRC, ICQ or by e-mail.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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DrSoya
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF [AH]
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF [WB]
Part of the Northolt Wing (http://www.raf303.org/northolt) (First Polish Fighter Wing)
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Westy honestly listen? ok?
I had a stalker in aw3
Guy screwed with me every time he could.
He destroyed files in my computer several times. Files that caused me 300$ at least in computer fixes.
The thing i said about my delay going up every time happened at old ft. Always as he logged on.Always went away when he left.
We used to go after each other every day there. For years this went on.Why because i dont back down from bullies.
In fact as my game got better i kicked his ass. His second and third account too.
You think im jokeing or crazy. Well im not.
Someday what was done to me will be against the law.
Was it one person or a few over the years?
Im not realy sure.
I know that dirty tricks that were played on me.Why because some have the knowledge in hacking they dont have in flight sims.
Im not computer literate like many here.
In fact this is my pc's main use.To f with me is like shooting fish in a barrel. It took no skill by the person or persons. I couldent fight back.
Coincidences that happen over and over well there just not random.
Btw i often wondered if it was someone from gamestorm.
They played the game too and had huge ego's that got easily crushed.
Do i realy think thats what happened? Nope but ive often wondered.
Some day ill tell you personaly how i got booted from aw3.
Its a interesting story. Its one that involved Dose being called.
It also involved someone hacking my computer to the point that i fraged one of the involved parties.
It got me booted from the game. It really is a good story. I got played bad.Suckered. It was a judo move i laugh to this day about it.
Why do i laugh? Because i would still be back there argueing.Id still be getting hacked.
All all in a inferior game.
By players that are not as good as the ones here.
Getting booted from aw3 was one of the best things that ever happened to me. Seriously.
It reinvigorated me. I found i loved flight sims again. All the BS that went on realy was ruining the fun.
I know your going to say im crazy. LOL
Thats ok i lived it ive been harrased because i played a game better than another person.
I also im not alone.
Others here have had the same problem.
Dont ask for proof im sure in the following posts someone has had a similar experence.
EYE
Thanks guys for explaining how this was done to me. Anyone with any other ideas on how it was done please post.
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First thing I'd do to find who, if I suspect an attack on my PC?..
Run
>NETSTAT 5
Shows connections to your PC every 5 seconds. That should give you something to start with.
Ex.
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I lost 2 weeks work due to a cracker attack some time ago. I have ATguard working on my puter, it is a PC firewall, but couple of times I put it off when flied AH. After one of such days I found that 3 my shared folders gone. Still I blame only myself, I should be more careful. I tried to track the guy, but he was clever enough not to try it again.
What is true from the stone age times that if there a way to do some dammage, there will be someone who will do it. If you will put a fence around some land and will call it yours it will be someone again who will try to break the fence and to take some crops from your field. That is terrible, because so many efforts and valuable time goes to deffending of what you have instead of creating something new.
Fariz
XII Legion.
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I don't know how you guys are claiming that another WB/AW or AH pilot messed with you. The IP streams to/from the server are pure client to server. When you approach another plane, or talk on channel 100, no information about your IP is sent to any other player. I've even used my Linux box to do a complete session capture for 10 mins of dogfighting, and gone through it. There is no information in any packet regarding another player's source IP address. I've only done this for AH and only looked at a partial capture of warbirds. Maybe AW had something, I don't know so I won't make any claims about that game.
So, that person who messed with you did one of two things:
He found your IP address via your email, or a BBS posting or because you announced it on ch 1. Or he was from the same ISP as you. Once you were dialed in over PPP, he had a free shot at you for any number of the Windows IP stack, Netbios sharing bugs that have existed over time. Or maybe AW3 sent IP info regarding other streams, making it possibly the most idiotic protocol in human history.
The rules of the game in AH are:
1. Never ever give your source IP address out to anyone. This BBS logs it, but if you have DHCP that's no biggy. If your IP address is open knowledge, and you have a dialup connection, you better get a stack protector like ZoneAlarm or get diddlyed.
I've seen morons announce their IP address for 2v2 games on channel 1. That's like a big sign that says, "DoS attack me!" Announce you have a game on ch 100, and send private to people and only if you have a feel for their character.
2. If you have DSL or Cable, get a firewall.
XX
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If you have DSL or Cable, get a firewall.
This simply cannot be stressed enough.
AKDejaVu
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I havent checked this post in days thx for the great advice. I use zone alarm now but i find it hurts delay.
Any ideas. I cant thank you all enough for explaining this all too me.
EYE
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Don't think you'll find any detectable delay really with ZoneAlarm.. look more to your ISP.