Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Karnak on March 14, 2002, 08:53:17 PM
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Could the Spit MkI, Hurri I, Hurri IIc, Tiffie Ib and Tempest really fire half of their guns?
I have never read anything that indicated that Spit Is or Hurri Is could select only 4 guns. I know that cannon armed Spits could fire cannons, MGs or cannons + MGs, but have never heard of RAF aircraft with homogenous armaments being able to fire anything other than all guns at once.
Does anybody have any info on this?
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The RAF planes aren't the only ones in AH with a wierd trigger setup. Quite a few planes that historically had only a single trigger can fire their weapons independently in AH. Others, like the 190's, have the wrong guns linked.
IMO this is sort of like the cockpits and ammo counters and flaps and ground handling model---sort of generic for all the planes because it's easier and more convienient. I can't really see any advantage for a Spit 1 to fire just 4 of its guns; likewise in the P-51D I have my guns mapped to fire all of 'em when I pull the trigger anyway.
J_A_B
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J_A_B,
That is true of the aircraft that are armed only with machine guns, but aircraft with a cannon only armament do get an advantage out of it.
The Tiffie, Hurri IIc and Tempest can double their ammo duration while retaining enough firepower to be effective by only firing 2 guns at once.
If they couldn't do that it reality, I don't think they should have that advantage in AH.
I don't know if they could or couldn't, that is why I started this thread.
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I dont know why some planes can fire the cannons seperately while others cant.
The worst example of this is the FW190. It could fire all weapons independantly or linked. The 190A8 is most hurt by this because of its 30mm cannon not matching the 20mm and 13mm trajectory. It could be fired alone in RL. In AH it can only fire all cannon together.
This could use a nice fix in the next version likely due out Jan 2003.. :) (Sorry HTC but the 1.09 wait was pure torture.)
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Speaking of 190's.....
Dunno if you have this already, but can't hurt. Hope this thing works right (J_A_B crosses his fingers). If it works size is greatly reduced from base image.
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I know for a fact that the F4f could select to either fire 2 guns, 4 guns, or all 6 guns. I know we dont have f4f in AH, but it shows that a plane with homogenous armament could select with gun banks to fire.
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Grunherz wrote:
The worst example of this is the FW190. It could fire all weapons independantly or linked. The 190A8 is most hurt by this because of its 30mm cannon not matching the 20mm and 13mm trajectory. It could be fired alone in RL. In AH it can only fire all cannon together.
For about the 30th time, this is not true.
The Fw190A8 had two firing circuits and two firing buttons.
You could fire either
1.) cowl mounted guns + inner cannons
2.) outter cannons + gondolas
or 3.) All together by pressing both triggers.
So AH is actually doing you a favor.
Here is the firing circuit schematic from the pilots manual which explains it in detail.
http://www.vermin.net/fw190/190-gun-circuit.jpg
I hope this doesn't hijack your thread Karnak
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Vermillion, IMO, your example is just one of the possible customizations. Probably, the most common one for the Sturm units using Mk108.
Do u have the data about 190A5? It uses the low cal MGs independently as a norm, same for previous 190A versions.
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Hi Fdiron,
>I know for a fact that the F4f could select to either fire 2 guns, 4 guns, or all 6 guns.
It was possible to enable or disable any individual gun by manually locking its action using the arming/charging levers on both sides of the cockpit. It worked, but required some manual effort and wasn't instantaneous.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Hi Vermillion,
>The Fw190A8 had two firing circuits and two firing buttons.
The Fw 190A-8 used the KG 13B featuring three firing buttons: A-Knopf, B1-Knopf and B2-Knopf.
Willi Reschke in "Jagdgeschwader 301/302 'Wilde Sau'" describes quite clearly opening in with 13 mm, 20 mm and 30 mm calibre guns at different distances during a single gunnery pass, so there's evidence that the Sturmjäger as used operationally were not configured according to your manual.
In fact, the Luftwaffe - and especially the Jagdwaffe - didn't think too highly of standard procedures if they interfered with their personal ideas. Common wisdom of the time: "In der Luftwaffe gibt's nichts, was es nicht gibt".
Alfred Price' "Fw 190 in Combat" describes an instance of a Sturmjäger's guns not firing at all due to the pilot's ignorance of the customized weapon circuits. This shows the downside of ignoring standards, but it proves that weapons systems weren't always rigged by the book.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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Vermillion:
For the 30th time I say to you what Ho Hun so kindly said for me. :)
They could be done pretty much any way. :)
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Yep, I agree Karnak, and whatever this would apply to the other remaining aircraft in AH. I don't actually use one set of guns at a time so to me it would be advantagious to me because I'd only have to press one button and hence more stable on the 'ole joystick! :)
Nexx
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Replicant....
Map your trigger to FIRE ALL..... then ya have a spare button
SKurj
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And I say to you Grunherz and Mandoble.
Prove it.
I have direct information (a detailed pilots manual) that I have posted here that says it does NOT work that way.
You may be right, but all I ask to see is some information that shows that. You should know that I'm always open to a good debate based upon the facts. But I haven't seen any evidence that the information I do have is flawed.
Thats all I ask. :)
I go to great efforts to find and share the data and information that I bring to this forum, so I honestly expect anyone else to share what they have with me.
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Hi Vermillion,
>Prove it.
Price' book proves that the Luftwaffe's Sturmgruppen had specialized (and non-standard) gunnery circuits. Reschke's book proves that the Sturmgruppen fired the different calibres individually in combat.
>I have direct information (a detailed pilots manual) that I have posted here that says it does NOT work that way.
You have posted one standard configuration here that is not even Rüstsatz-specific. It also looks like your "pilot's manual" is in English, and as far as I've seen, it doesn't quote which original Luftwaffe documents (if any) were used as a source. The way Luftwaffe documents are organized, the complete description should be expected to be part of the "Flugzeughandbuch" ('Aircraft Manual', not pilot's manual) which actually consists of a series of individual booklets on the specific subsystems. The booklet on the barrel armament ("Schußwaffenanlage") would contain detailed and specific information on the standard configuration of each of the Rüstsätze instead of the generalized statements on the pages you posted.
In short, your "manual" can't be expected to provide a final answer to the question. Needless to say, discounting (or actually ignoring) the accounts of operational pilots isn't a good idea if all you have is an incomplete manual of undocumented origin.
It may be interesting and even fairly useful, but it has its limitations, and I'd suggest to try and stay aware of that.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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HoHun, so your saying that since some anecdotal comment from some pilot seems to mean what certain group wants it too (which btw was probably run thru a translation and back or twice itself) you want me to ignore data and diagrams from the Aircraft Handbook?
Because a pilot said it was so, that makes it a fact? I don't even want to go there.
Btw the information from the manual is varient specific, including the R1, R2, information on the R3 but no performance data, the R7 and the R8. But according to it, the firing circuit is standard between the varients as I described.
And your right its not the pilots manual, that was my own description. From the Title page of the document:
D. (Luft) T.2190A-8 -- "Fw 190A-8 Aircraft Handbook (effective July 1944) Issued September 1944
By Order of Wittmer
Luftwaffe High Command
Chief of Technical Services
Berlin, 5 September 1944
Nr.280513/44 (E'ste. Re. E2V)
You now have a reference, so get the original document in German and use it to disprove what I have posted.
{frustrated sarcasm mode = ON }
You know with the anti luftwaffe conspiracy and all, you can't trust anything thats been translated or tested by the imperialistic anglo-american dogs.
{frustrated sarcasm mode = OFF }
Lets get real. I am a huge fan of German aircraft myself and fly them regularly in AH, but this fanatical vision of aryan superiority and a paranoid suspicion of a conspiracy against the Greater Lufwaffe on this board is just going a little too far.
Its to the point where your questioning my integrity and making it personal.
FYI, the original source of this Aircraft Handbook, was Gatt. He is an Italian who is heavily a fan of Axis aircraft, and he purchased this book in Italy and shared it with some of us. Its quite lengthy but I try to share the important facts and figures from it, when I can.
So believe it or not, I don't care. But I still say to provide your own hard data in rebuttal other than "so and so said in his memoirs it could be done".
Sure there might have been none standard firing circuits. There were many nonstandard field mods for alot of different aircraft, from all sides in the conflict. But thats not how they get modeled in Aces High.
Just ask the P-47 fanatics that always ask for the hot rodded 2800's like the 56th Fighter Group used. No not the M models but the modified turbocharger waste gates on the D models.
I'm willing to keep an open mind about this, but again. Prove it with primary source data, not anecdotal comments and descriptions. I have.
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Hi Vermillion,
>HoHun, so your saying that since some anecdotal comment from some pilot seems to mean what certain group wants it too (which btw was probably run thru a translation and back or twice itself) you want me to ignore data and diagrams from the Aircraft Handbook?
You can read what I'm saying in my posts. The only group I'm a member of is the group of people who are honestly interested in finding out how it really was in WW2 in a sober and constructive discussion. If you consider yourself a member of the same group, I'd appreciate it if you'd try and refrain yourself from attacks like the above. They're hardly constructive.
>But according to it, the firing circuit is standard between the varients as I described.
The page you referred to ('I. Description/A. General/The basic armament of the Fw 190A-8 consists of three group of weapons') doesn't seem to support that. In fact, it specifically describes the standard armament of 2 x 13 mm MGs and 4 x 20 mm MG151/20. In any case, you'd find the detailed information on the Rüstsatz armement in the manual part on the Schußwaffenanlage ('barrel armament system'). The German aircraft manuals consisted of a considerable number of individual booklets, and I'd suggest that when you're making statements on the specific Rüstsätze, you should check them with the Schußwaffenanlagen booklet.
>Its to the point where your questioning my integrity and making it personal.
You'll be glad to hear that you hadn't given me any reason to question your integrity. What I said is:
"[...] all you have is an incomplete manual of undocumented origin."
You've provided the missing documentation on the manual now, and I'm confident that, should you find the Schußwaffenanlagen part of the Fw 190A-8 manual, you'll post it here to complete the information you've alreay provided.
I'd suggest that you omit the immature "fanatical vision of aryan superiority" nonsense in future posts, though. Whenever you feel the need to say something like that, I'd appreciate it if you could quote the speeches from Chaplin's "The Great Dictator" instead, which would be a great reminder not to take ourselves too seriously here :-)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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HoHun, the KG13B control column had 3 buttons, but not 3 "firing" buttons. Only the top two buttons were linked with armament, the lower one was used for radio transmisions.
Forward instruments / rockets lauch system (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/fw190cockpit/DashMap.html)
KGB13 control column (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/fw190cockpit/stick.html)
Basically, in a 190A8/R8 there were four ways to release things:
1 - Two fire buttons on the top of the stick.
2 - Frontal control panel to arm/fire WGr.21 rocket launchers.
3 - Frontal handle to release ventral stores (supossedly to release drop tank).
4 - Frontal handle to release rest of the stores (to release WGr21 tubes?? Pyro, take a look at this ...)
The next one is the cockpit of a 190D9, while being different than the 190A8 one, it shows clearly (between the pedals) the WGr21 control panel. Do we have WGr21 in our D9? ;) The control column is also a KG13B, with only two firing buttons in the top, but this plane has no external guns, so, one button for 151/20 and other for the MGs.
(http://www.algonet.se/~molrog/Luftwaffe/fockewulf/images/Fw190D9%20Cockpit.jpg)
Here is another type of control column for 190. This one has no WGr21 control panel in the cockpit.
(http://www.aeroplaneart.com.au/Images/JSJ_Focke_Wulf_Fw_190_Cockpit.jpg)
And a third type of stick:
(http://www.airventure.de/newspics/fw190_dsommer_2.JPG)
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Hi Mandoble,
>HoHun, the KG13B control column had 3 buttons, but not 3 "firing" buttons.
Actually, the description of the Werfergranaten system in the English manual indicates that the B2-Knopf was used for firing the 21 cm rockets, so it seems that KG 13B could indeed be configured to feature three firing buttons.
>Frontal handle to release rest of the stores (to release WGr21 tubes?? Pyro, take a look at this ...)
The 21 cm rocket launcher tubes could indeed be jettisoned in an emergency. The pushbutton for this was situated on the weapon control panel, I don't think any other handle was involved.
The second picture you posted is quite interesting since it seems to show an additional Schußzähler (ammunition counter) below the dashboard. (The same picture is reproduced in Price' "Fw 190 in combat", though captioned as Fw 190A-3.) The print on the Schußzähler reads "Durchladen" ('Cocking').
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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HoHun, have you checked to two links I included? They describe clearly the systems used to release external stores as well as firing the Wgr21.
Basically, you have two switches related to WGr21 in the forward instrument panel, the left one is a safety switch and the right is to fire them. In the same forward instrument panel you have two handles, above WGr21 panel, one to jettison ventral stores and a second one to release wing stores. You may "click" on the image over each element to get a more detailed description.
WGr21 control system (http://www.clubhyper.com/reference/fw190cockpit/wg21.html)
About using the third button on the stick as a "fire button" I think it was not possible, cause there is no other button available to activate the microphone.
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Hi Mandoble,
>HoHun, have you checked to two links I included?
Thanks for the reminder - these are good links :-)
>Basically, you have two switches related to WGr21 in the forward instrument panel, the left one is a safety switch and the right is to fire them.
That's a different W.Gr. 21 panel than the one I had seen before. Still, the left switch is labeled "Sicherheitsscha. Gerät 21" ('safety switch device 21'), while the right one is labeled "Absprengscha. Gerät 21" ('jettison switch device 21'). Accordingly, the right hand switch wasn't for launching, but for jettisoning the rocket tubes.
>About using the third button on the stick as a "fire button" I think it was not possible, cause there is no other button available to activate the microphone.
From the site you referred to: "The radio control button is located on the front of the stick just below the handgrip; the pilot depressed the button to talk. " The B2-Knopf is referred to as bomb release button in the description, and on the left near the top of the stick.
The description is somewhat misleading about the function of the primary trigger, as it doubled as safety covering the B1-Knopf on top of the stick, and only the latter function is mentioned. The A-Knopf was the trigger, the B1-Knopf the pushbutton on top of the stick, and the B2-Knopf the pushbutton on the left of the stick, so there's a total of three firing buttons.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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AND NOW BACK TO OUR REGULARLY SCHEDULED PROGRAMMING..
You LW go start yer own thread +)
SKurj
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Hi Karnak,
>Could the Spit MkI, Hurri I, Hurri IIc, Tiffie Ib and Tempest really fire half of their guns?
From the Spitfire IIA and IIB Pilot's Notes:
"Gun-firing control
44. The eight guns are fired pneumatically by means of a pshbutton fitted in the control column spade grip. The compressed air supply is taken from the same source as the brake supply, the available pressure being shown by the gauge (18) referred to in para.42."
From the Typhoon IA and IB Pilot's Notes:
"27. Guns and cannon. - The machine guns and cannon are fired pneumatically by means of the pushbutton (26) on the control column spade grip. The compressed is suppy is taken from the same source as the brake supply, the available pressure being shown on the gauge.
28. Camera gun. - A camera gun inside the radiator fairing is operated by the gun-firing pushbutton on the control column spade-grip, a succession of exposures being made during the whole time the button is depressed. A footage indicator and an aperture switch are mounted on the wedge plate (63) above the camera master switch (65). A separate pushbutton (28) on the spade-grip operates the camera gun independendly of the guns. When not in use, the plug to the indicator should be placed in the dummy socket (64) on the right-hand shelf.
29. Bomb release controls (Mk. IB aircraft only). - Two selector switches (for port and starboard bombs) and two nose and tail fusing switches (48) are fitted on the right-hand side of the cockpit. The bomb release pushbutton is incorporated in the top of the throttle lever."
(The cockpit layout photograph shows two single-piece pushbuttons on the spade grip.)
From the Tempest II Pilot's Notes:
"27. Guns
The guns are fired electro-pneumatically by the pushbutton on the control column spade-grip. The compressed air supply is taken from the same source as the brake supply and the available pressure is shown on the triple pressure gauge (24)."
From the Hurricane IIA, IIB, IIC, IID and IV Pilot's Notes:
"28. Gun controls. - Themachine guns and cannon are normally fired by the pushbutton on the control column spade grip. The two 40 mm guns on Mk.IID and IV aircraft are fired electro-pneumatically by the pushbutton in the throttle lever; they cannot be fired, however, until the master switch (11) on the decking shelf, forward of the throttle quadrant, is switched on. The cocking lever (28) on the electrical panel to the left of the seat should be pushed down in the event of a misfire."
For comparison: The mixed armament of most Spitfire variants was fired pneumatically from a valve that could be pushed down on either end (in rocker fashion) or entirely for firing either set of guns or both sets of guns respectively.
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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HoHun,
Thanks for the info.
It seems that at least for RAF aircraft with homogenous armaments only one bank of weapons should be present.
That is another change I would like to see to them in AH.
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Hi Karnak,
>It seems that at least for RAF aircraft with homogenous armaments only one bank of weapons should be present.
Yes, certainly! I think it should be similar for a couple of the American fighters with 0.50" MG armament.
The Navy planes seem to have had a requirement for charging/locking handles in the cockpit to make sure they were safe while on the flying deck. At least the F4F and the FM-2 had these.
The P-39 seems to have featured similar charging handles, too, but in the P-47 and the P-51, it was firing all or nothing. (Though I've read - on a messageboard - about a cut-out switch for 2 of the 8 guns of the P-47 that was fitted at unit level to save some ammunition for strafing purposes.)
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)
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It seems that at least for RAF aircraft with homogenous armaments only one bank of weapons should be present.
I remember reading a test pilot's account of the Spitfire 21 (Quill?), which indicated that it's four cannon could be fired in two pairs, or all at once.
Presumably that would be the case with earlier 4 cannon Spits as well. (If we ever get one)
Personally, I can't see the benifit in only firing part of a homogenous armament.
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Hi Nashwan,
>Presumably that would be the case with earlier 4 cannon Spits as well. (If we ever get one)
Unfortunately, the Spitfire VA, VB and VC Pilot's Notes only describe the VA and VB arrangements :-(
Regards,
Henning (HoHun)