Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Tub-o-lard on March 16, 2002, 07:49:11 PM
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Hi all, I finally signed up for the free two weeks this weekend, and I have been having a blast! My 250ms ping hasn't been a problem at all, and the Main Arena has been warp free for me because I play when it is night in the US so there are only 100 odd people in there.
I spent a while flying from the carrier today and I noticed that if I was in an F4U and I came accross a plane like a N1K or a Spit, I was dead.
To try and work out why this was so I took the SpitV for a spin, dived into the nearest dogfight and immediately got two kills before we ran out of bad guys ... so can the corsair ever beat these planes? If so, what techniques do you use?
Thanks in Advance!
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Try and get ABOVE em use B&Z tatics against these 2 T&B planes
Tho i have seen some that CAN & DO T&B with the Gull wing wonder.Main thing i find in F4U is KEEP THE SPEED FAST.Try and fight in the vertical tho the N1K and spit also climb very well.
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Keep fast if ya can
If you get slow you are in trouble. The F4 out rolls both the nik and spit at any speed so use that when u can.
SKurj
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Thanks for the answers guys.
What would you consider would be a minimum speed for the F4U? Also, does this mean that you would never turn hard enough to hear the stall buzzer when fighting in the corsair?
If anyone has any films of an F4U beating either of these planes I would love to see them.
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I'm not a F4U driver, and never droven F4Us seriously, but maybe my little experience in other fighters such as 190A-5s against N1K2s and Spitfires would suggest some useful tips.
Now, "Fight when you are faster, and higher than him" is a truth that applies to all fighters, and a bit vague. Clearly you seem to be asking the situations where you are forced to fight them in simular altitudes.
The problem with the 'bad turner' planes is that no matter how fast you are capable of, the superior turners are always one step.. no, make that three four steps above of you after the merge. Let's say a 190A-5 is at an equal altitude with an enemy Spitfire9. Both approaching at Head-On direction.
The first Head-On merge happens, and two foes pass each other. Look back, and start to reverse directions to engage again. The speed of both planes after they passed each other Head-On might have been equal, the A-5 might even have been faster.. but the problem is when the 190 tries a reversal, it's turn performance is bad so it takes a long time. If you do a Immelmann turn right after the merge, you will notice the Spitfire has also done the same, but has already finished its move and is pointing his guns at you. By this time the 190A-5 has but just finished, or is about to finish his Immelmann.
Thus, when two planes meet at the same alt, both having simular speeds, the better turn fighter always has advantage. To win comfortably in these situations, the 190A-5 has to have either looooots of speed or the Spit pilot has to be very inexperienced. Thus, in a bad turner, after a HO merge, you have to go easy on the reversal and extend. What does this mean?? For example, read carefully this scenario and imagine the fight within your head:
* A Spitfire9 and 190A-5 meet, both near same speed, simular altitude.
* A head on pass occurs, the Spitfire, after passing the 190A-5, begins to turn.
* 190A-5, seeing this, just plain extends away straight.
* Now, the Spit9 has turned right after the HO merge quickly. With that move, he lost a lot of speed. He has to build up his speed again, and that takes time.
* So, the 190A-5 passes and just goes straight to about 3.0 - 4.0 distance.
* In this safe distance, the 190A-5 does an easy Immelmann.
* Now the distance closes again, 190A-5 finished the Immelmann. 190A-5 is slow. The Spitfire gained some of his speed he lost, but not all of it. Two foes again, are facing each other with some distance, but this time, the Spitfire a little faster than 190A-5, but the 190A-5 higher than the Spitfire.
* The 190A-5 dives shallowly down to the Spitfire. The Spitfire, if he wants to have his guns on the 190A-5, has to point his nose up shallow.
* Now, as the distance closes much, the Spitfire loses speed again. In contrast, the 190A-5 picks up speed.
* Just when a Spitfire is attempting a Head-On shot, the 190A-5 moves away from the Head-On again, and goes vertically up.
* The Spitfire cannot follow the 190A-5.
* Now, the Spit9 has to nose down and try to dive away, and the 190A-5, after going vertically up, will nose down and start chasing the Spitfire. Two planes started at equal terms, one was energy wise, the other spent his energy in vain. This is what people call "energy fighting"
Think it as sort of a 'joust'. But after each pass you have to trick the opponent into making bit more extreme maneuvers, while you do the least maneuvers. After many passes, the small mistakes some up to a big one. Such as in the scenario of the Spit9 vs 190A-5. Keep note that in that scenario, the 190A-5 gained the critical advantage when the Spitfire, trusting his good turn capability, turned and reversed after the first pass. It took time for the Spitfire to regain some of the energy he lost, and during that time the 190A-5 ran away to a safe distance, and gained an altitude advantage and came back.
Fighting in a Corsair against supreme turners at the same altitude, unless the Corsair pilot is extremely talented, is always a disadvantaged game for reasons I have stated in the beginning. Make long extensions, pass after pass, and see if the pilot in the turn fighter is a hasty guy, reversing not long after each pass. If he is, he can be shot down with patience and good energy management. If the pilot you see is a cautious one, seemingly experienced, and makes his reversals after passes carefully, then run. He mocks you or not, just run. That is the time when you should run and come back later with higher altitude and speed. :)
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I have had this same problem and will try this out. Thanks!!!:)
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Wow, excellent response Kweassa!! I will have to try these out next time I come across one of these planes 1 vs 1
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Kweassa is rigth thats the best thing you can do against those kind of planes, I have about 2 years flying the f4u-1d corsair so I can send ya some films showing exactly what Kweassa said
f4u vrs spits, f4u vrs niks, f4u vrs zeros .
just tell me where can I send it
terra
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At Last............
Now I know what they mean by E-fighting....:o :D :D ;)
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Tub-o-lard,
couple points I can add here....
1st lets deal with the vertical...the hog is a good E fighter in the vertical. It will zoom well and has excellent rudder authority. As a general rule the hog will equal or outpreform the spit and nikki in the vertical...of course you need the E...if you go vertical in a neg E situation the 20mm in either con will make you pay for your mistake.
In the horizontal, both the nikki and the spit are sluggish at higher speeds, they have a slower roll rate and their turn rate at high speed is actually not very good....so, if you are on the 6 of a nikki or spit try the following...as you close the range throttle back if your closure rate is very high. As the con breaks...pull up and use rudder to start turn toward con (this will bleed some extra E) as you roll semi inverted you can pull down and usually have a nice snap or tracking shot. If the con continues to turn dont follow more than a 1/2 circle...either roll 90 degree's away and extend...or pull to vertical if you feel you have the E to top the con out if he reverses and follows.
To win in the hog you need to win the E fight and then use the vertical to "saddle up"...you'll almost never get a kill vs a true T&B fighter in the horizontal.
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Humble and terracota thanks for the great replies. I would love to see those films, can you please send them to:
michaelk at access dot com dot au
Thanks in advance!
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Originally posted by Kweassa
I'm not a F4U driver, and never droven F4Us seriously, but maybe my little experience in other fighters such as 190A-5s against N1K2s and Spitfires would suggest some useful tips.
Now, "Fight when you are faster, and higher than him" is a truth that applies to all fighters, and a bit vague. Clearly you seem to be asking the situations where you are forced to fight them in simular altitudes.
The problem with the 'bad turner' planes is that no matter how fast you are capable of, the superior turners are always one step.. no, make that three four steps above of you after the merge. Let's say a 190A-5 is at an equal altitude with an enemy Spitfire9. Both approaching at Head-On direction.
The first Head-On merge happens, and two foes pass each other. Look back, and start to reverse directions to engage again. The speed of both planes after they passed each other Head-On might have been equal, the A-5 might even have been faster.. but the problem is when the 190 tries a reversal, it's turn performance is bad so it takes a long time. If you do a Immelmann turn right after the merge, you will notice the Spitfire has also done the same, but has already finished its move and is pointing his guns at you. By this time the 190A-5 has but just finished, or is about to finish his Immelmann.
Thus, when two planes meet at the same alt, both having simular speeds, the better turn fighter always has advantage. To win comfortably in these situations, the 190A-5 has to have either looooots of speed or the Spit pilot has to be very inexperienced. Thus, in a bad turner, after a HO merge, you have to go easy on the reversal and extend. What does this mean?? For example, read carefully this scenario and imagine the fight within your head:
* A Spitfire9 and 190A-5 meet, both near same speed, simular altitude.
* A head on pass occurs, the Spitfire, after passing the 190A-5, begins to turn.
* 190A-5, seeing this, just plain extends away straight.
* Now, the Spit9 has turned right after the HO merge quickly. With that move, he lost a lot of speed. He has to build up his speed again, and that takes time.
* So, the 190A-5 passes and just goes straight to about 3.0 - 4.0 distance.
* In this safe distance, the 190A-5 does an easy Immelmann.
* Now the distance closes again, 190A-5 finished the Immelmann. 190A-5 is slow. The Spitfire gained some of his speed he lost, but not all of it. Two foes again, are facing each other with some distance, but this time, the Spitfire a little faster than 190A-5, but the 190A-5 higher than the Spitfire.
* The 190A-5 dives shallowly down to the Spitfire. The Spitfire, if he wants to have his guns on the 190A-5, has to point his nose up shallow.
* Now, as the distance closes much, the Spitfire loses speed again. In contrast, the 190A-5 picks up speed.
* Just when a Spitfire is attempting a Head-On shot, the 190A-5 moves away from the Head-On again, and goes vertically up.
* The Spitfire cannot follow the 190A-5.
* Now, the Spit9 has to nose down and try to dive away, and the 190A-5, after going vertically up, will nose down and start chasing the Spitfire. Two planes started at equal terms, one was energy wise, the other spent his energy in vain. This is what people call "energy fighting"
Think it as sort of a 'joust'. But after each pass you have to trick the opponent into making bit more extreme maneuvers, while you do the least maneuvers. After many passes, the small mistakes some up to a big one. Such as in the scenario of the Spit9 vs 190A-5. Keep note that in that scenario, the 190A-5 gained the critical advantage when the Spitfire, trusting his good turn capability, turned and reversed after the first pass. It took time for the Spitfire to regain some of the energy he lost, and during that time the 190A-5 ran away to a safe distance, and gained an altitude advantage and came back.
Fighting in a Corsair against supreme turners at the same altitude, unless the Corsair pilot is extremely talented, is always a disadvantaged game for reasons I have stated in the beginning. Make long extensions, pass after pass, and see if the pilot in the turn fighter is a hasty guy, reversing not long after each pass. If he is, he can be shot down with patience and good energy management. If the pilot you see is a cautious one, seemingly experienced, and makes his reversals after passes carefully, then run. He mocks you or not, just run. That is the time when you should run and come back later with higher altitude and speed. :)
If I may add to what Kweassa has already described (described very well too).
Understanding the strengths and weaknesses of your aircraft, and that of your enemy is essential to success, no matter what you elect to fly. I have been successful in the F4U (37 kills, 7 losses, with only one loss in aerial combat) so far this tour. This is a result of employing the tactics defined by Kweassa and constant practice on deflection shooting. Ultimately, everything boils down to marksmanship. Even if you get perfect position, you must still hit the enemy aircraft with gunfire. In addition, it is far more common not to have the ideal shooting angle, especially when using E tactics. This is because many of your opportunities will come at off-angles closer to head-to-head than near the con's 6, or even 90 degree to your direction of flight. My suggestion is that you also practice off-angle shooting. This can be done offline, and without a doubt will contribute to improved skills and better scores in the main arena. Practice attacking the drones from every conceivable angle. Perfect the judgement for proper lead, and you will become a terror to opposing fighters. There is nothing worse than getting killed from what appeared to be an impossible angle. It leaves your victims shaking their heads in disbelief. Understand that high-angle deflection shooting means NOT using the gunsight. Frequently, you will be shooting without being able to see the enemy aircraft. Likewise, the enemy will not expect you to take, much less actually make this type of shot. A skilled deflection shooter is THE most dangerous opponent you will ever encounter. Guys like Leviathn, Mandoble, Mathman and Nath (naming only a few, there are many others) are expert deflection shooters, and are highly dangerous from ANY angle.
Fly everything. That's right, fly every aircraft to learn its strengths and shortcomings. Indeed, the best way to understand what a Spitfire is capable of is to fly a Spitfire. Likewise for any other type.
I have been flying since the middle of tour 24. I primarily stayed with Spitfires, Hurricanes and the Zero, because I like to turnfight. However, this tour I have added the Fw 190, F4U and Typhoon to my list. This required me to learn energy tactics. Initially, I struggled a bit. But halfway through the tour I have improved to the point where I'm comfortable against any enemy. Last evening I managed 22 kills and one loss flying the Fw 190A-5 (three sorties). That lone loss was credited to an M16 GV, even though I induced an accelerated stall at 100 feet trying to bring my guns to bear. The M16 never even saw me until I fell on him. Included in the victories were Spitfires, N1K2s, and P-38s. Most were killed in huge furballs over airfields. The secret to this success lies in keeping the 190 (or F4U) at or above corner speed at all times (200-300 mph). At these speeds, every pilot's turning ability is restricted by G tolerance. That means that Spitfires and Nikis can't turn any tighter than you without slowing considerably. When they slow down, the advantage remains with the faster aircraft, assuming you don't squander your energy. Should the enemy fighter try a "blackout" turn to get position, you should be beyond range and moving much faster when he eases out of the turn. Simply unload (zero G), extend and reposition yourself for another go at them.
Tactics described by Kweassa are boilerplate. They are very effective as long as you maintain discipline and hone your gunnery skills to a fine edge. Follow the advice given in this thread and I will expect that you will be highly successful in the Corsair (I recommend the F4U-1C, F4U-4, F4U-1 and F4U-1D in order of effectiveness).
My regards,
Widewing
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Tub-o-lard,
........um.....nothing really. I just wanted to start off a post calling someone a Tub-o-lard. Thanks. :D
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Widewing, I understand why you put the -C first, given how much you stress shooting ability, then the -4 second is an obvious choice, but why did you put the F4U-1 ahead of the F4U-1D?
Mickey ... you're welcome :)
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How effective you find each plane will also depend on your personal skill set. Although I am a decent pilot, I'm not a great shot. It's what keeps me from being one of the really dangerous guys out there. However, I'm cool with that and I know my strengths and weaknesses. Given that I'm not a superb shot, but I am a pretty good E fighter, I find the -4 most effective for me. The C comes a close second for me, but I'd pick the 1D over the -1 as well. Widewing may rank them differently to suite his own strengths and weaknesses, and you should do the same.
Try them all, and see which one suites you best. Personally the P-47D is the plane that seems to be perfectly suited to my skill set, so it is the plane I enjoy the most and spend the most time in.
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Originally posted by Tub-o-lard
Widewing, I understand why you put the -C first, given how much you stress shooting ability, then the -4 second is an obvious choice, but why did you put the F4U-1 ahead of the F4U-1D?
Mickey ... you're welcome :)
I prefer the F4U-1 over the F4U-1D because it's lighter, and consequently a bit more agile. In addition, it's faster at all altitudes. In turn, I live with the cockpit frame rails. For jabo work where the threat from enemy aircraft is minimal, I'd take the 1-D due to the fact that it can carry more than twice the iron load of the -1. If I expect heavy opposition at the target area, I'll take the -1 or the C-Hog. If killing GVs or vulching, the C-Hog gets the nod every time. I would hesitate to expose an expensive F4U-4 to GV pounding. Risks are too high vs the rewards.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Kweassa
* Now, the Spit9 has turned right after the HO merge quickly. With that move, he lost a lot of speed. He has to build up his speed again, and that takes time.
Kweassa, actually, the effect is just the opposite. After the 180 degree turn the spit may be even faster and at your six. There is a wide range of speeds where the Spit can turn on a dime while not loosing a single knot, if you add a bit of nose down attitude, the final result is a 180 dgree turn and an increase in speed. Seen from your 190A5, the turn of the spit may seem brutal, but seen from the spit cockpit, it is simply a very smooth turn at corner speed or even above corner with no E loose and some speed gain. Your 190A5 will get some separation, but has lost totally the offensive possition and sooner or later will need to dive away or start scissoring in desperation.
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I find the -1 and -1D very very close in speed. Take a look at the charts HTC has up here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/models.html
However, although the speeds aver very close, the -1D climbs much better than the -1. This is important for me in an E fighter, and combined with the better visibility I prefer it over the -1 depending on the situation. If I'm doing point defense type stuff where I may be at a disadvantage, I'll often choose the -1 instead, hopeing it's better maneuverability will keep me alive. If I'm going to have time to get to altitude and really work the BnZ and E fight, I'll take the -1D for it's better climb rate.
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Originally posted by Lephturn
I find the -1 and -1D very very close in speed. Take a look at the charts HTC has up here:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/models/models.html
However, although the speeds aver very close, the -1D climbs much better than the -1. This is important for me in an E fighter, and combined with the better visibility I prefer it over the -1 depending on the situation. If I'm doing point defense type stuff where I may be at a disadvantage, I'll often choose the -1 instead, hopeing it's better maneuverability will keep me alive. If I'm going to have time to get to altitude and really work the BnZ and E fight, I'll take the -1D for it's better climb rate.
If you overlay those charts Leph, you'll see that the F4U-1 has a 10 mph speed advantage at all altitudes. Not huge, but important.
My best,
Widewing
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Sorry to continually burden you all with my newbieness, but if the -1C is the most lethal version, then why does the -4 cost 10 times as many perks?
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I don't pay attention to the charts as posted, but the F4U-1 feels very slow to me and I always had it in my head it was much slower than the F4U-1D. Are you sure it's faster than the -1D? One thing I'm certain about is that the -1 is about the slowest climbing fighters in the game. How does the -1 rate in comparison to the -1D in terms of acceleration?
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The F4U-4 costs a lot of perks because it excels at altitude. As one of the best F4 models in WWII, it continues that legacy in here. Same reason why a Tempest is perked... ability to beat all comers. Restrictions come with every aircraft though. The Tempest is great up until about 22-24k. Above that is doesn't do so hot. The F4U-4 is great above 25k. My personal choice for a plane above 25k is the P47-D30. Above 30k, the P38 rules (while most think it's terrible in here, it's good at altitude, most people are not patient enough to go that high though). The truth is that most fights in WWII were fought above the 20k level. In AH, we get the Counterstrike-esque attitude that we need to look for the quickest fight and start shooting. Be patient take some planes to altitude and decide for yourself which ones you would fly. Good luck!
Check out this post...
www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=47121&referrerid=3559 (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=47121&referrerid=3559)
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Heya's,
A couple of things about the F4U-1 and F4U-1D.
The F4U-1 IRL had wing fuel tanks. They carried about 700LBS of fuel when full. What this means in AH is the you should never carry more than 75% fuel on takeoff unless you are planning to fly accross the map and back.
In the F4U-1 75% fuel is the same as 110% fuel in the -1D. 50% fuel is more than 75% fuel in the -1D. So if you are taking off and expect to see combat right away you should never take more than 50% fuel or you will wallow like a pig. With 25% fuel you can surprise the hell out of NIK2's and even Spit's for a couple of turns. But don't get below 175MPH or you will get burned.
The F4U-1D has the unique problem of being modeled with two underwing pylons that have some drag effects. That's why it is slower than the -1. The P-47 series also had these pylons although they are not built into the FM when not carrying ordinace otherwise the top speed of the F4U-1D would be 10MPH faster on the deck and through out the speed range.
Later Y'all
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Good stuff guys, lots of valuable information here.
AFAIK, the F4U-1 should accellerate more slowly than the F4U-1D since that is directly related to climb. I am guessing that is related to the prop installed on the two models... or am I out to lunch? Is there a different engine in these two birds, or is my guest correct?
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Heya Lephturn,
Your correct on both accounts.
It like the P-47 received a paddle blade prop some time around 1944 and the -1D also had more HP. 2250 as apposed to 2135 in the -1A.
BTW, check my post in A/C and Vehicles on Weight wingArea and Power.
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Last night I ended up 1 vs 1 with a Spit (9 I think), I was in a F4U-1D, and I won!!
It was almost an exact copy of Kweassa's description above ... an extension to about 4 (miles?), a low g immelman to point at the spit. He obligingly climbed towards me I gave him a quick spray at a distance of about 1k to make him think I was going HO then pulled up again, this time to a tight loop. As I came over the top he was direcly beneath me wallowing around, it was a piece of cake to dive on him, and turn he made I could counter easily with roll. I hit him in one pass and he went down .. you have no idea how good I felt afterwards! Thanks for all the help so far :)
Now that I have realised that I can get away from Spit's and N1K's if I need to, I have to work out what to do about those damned F6Fs and P-51s. Any advice there? ;)
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Originally posted by Tub-o-lard
Now that I have realised that I can get away from Spit's and N1K's if I need to, I have to work out what to do about those damned F6Fs and P-51s. Any advice there? ;)
F6's you can ignore, they are too slow to bother you. If you are fighting a P51, time to pray! :)
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Originally posted by F4UDOA
The F4U-1D has the unique problem of being modeled with two underwing pylons that have some drag effects. That's why it is slower than the -1. The P-47 series also had these pylons although they are not built into the FM when not carrying ordinace otherwise the top speed of the F4U-1D would be 10MPH faster on the deck and through out the speed range.
Does this mean that in the -1D you get drag from these pylons even if you choose not to take external stores?
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I'm glad it helped, Tub :)
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Originally posted by Tub-o-lard
Now that I have realised that I can get away from Spit's and N1K's if I need to, I have to work out what to do about those damned F6Fs and P-51s. Any advice there? ;)
Yep, DO NOT try to dive away. Both will catch you in a dive, the F6F will catch you early in the dive, and the P-51 later in the dive. However, both dive pretty well and are fast enough when they dive to give you fits. Don't play that game. I can tell you that the one thing I LOVE to see when flying the Hellcat is anybody in a "faster" plane trying to dive away from me. Beware the F6F, because it is a very good E fighter as well and it will turn better than your Corsair in sustained turning fights. However, you can easily out-run the Hellcat in level flight or a very shallow dive. You can extend and use similar techniques to the Spit once you have a comfortable E advantage. Versus the P-51 you are fighting one of the best E fighters in the game and it's also very fast, so you can't use the extend for E advantage technique. Your best bet vs. the Pony is to have an E advantage and use it. If you don't have an E advantage, you will be the angles fighter, so use angles fighting techniques (lead turns and such) versus the Pony and go for a quick kill. The Hog handles pretty damn well, and I think between it and the Pony it's going to come down to pilot skill if the starting E states are pretty close.
If you are losing the fight for whatever reason, try to time an extension move just right and 0 G dive towards friendlies. You'll accellerate faster in the dive, so is you time it right you can get some separation and make a break for it. The Pony will catch you, but if you got enough separation to begin with, you may get to help before he catches you. Depending on the terrain you can sometimes also dive to the dirt and possibly have him lose sight since your icon range is only 3.0k when you are very close to the ground. I like to do this in my Jug, using hills and valleys to reverse while my opponent can't see me hoping to surprise him and either shoot him in the face or get a decent angles advantage.
Your other option if you are at a disadvantage is to go for an overshoot. Standard techniques apply, and again I think it will probably come down to pilot skill.
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
F6's you can ignore, they are too slow to bother you. If you are fighting a P51, time to pray! :)
Unless you're flying an F4U-4, then it's the Mustang jock who'll be doing the praying. It's faster everywhere, and climbs better as well. ;)
Should HTC reduce the perk requirement for the F4U-4 (which they must if they expect to see more than a few in the MA), we will see enough of them to make the Mustang and Dora guys start whining.
Oh, I'd be careful of Hellcats if the they have an altitude advantage, or if you meet one Co-E. They're good turners and accelerate very well in a dive, not to mention being built like a brick sh*thouse.
My regards,
Widewing
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Heya Tub,
Yes the F4U-1D is modeled with external stores Pylons regardless of loadout. They are modeled in what is called "combat condition" instead of "clean condition". It slows the top speed on the deck from 366MPH to 358MPH and from 417MPH to 409MPH at 20K.
The F4U-4 also visible has them in the artwork but I cannot see where the speed is affected because the charts HTC is using are from a book not from a NAVAIR document (Or at least I don't have the document).
I will check to see if the pylons are visible on the -1D FM as I have never looked. The P-47 D-25 and D-30 use the same pylons although I a not sure if they effect the FM because I don't have enough P-47 documents.
Here is the Doc where it shows the difference between Combat condition and Clean condition.
(http://www.geocities.com/slakergmb/id74.htm)
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Doesn't want to show up, I think it's to big.
Try this.