Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Soviet on March 16, 2002, 09:30:28 PM
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(http://www.qt.org/worldwar/weapons/germany/luftwaffe/he177.jpg)
Right now the Germans have an AWESOME planeset it's just missiong one vital element that would make it perfect. A decent bomber, i mean come on the Ju-88 sucks :D
But the He-177 is totally different.
Here's some stats on this thing:
Heinkel He-177A5/R2
Powerplant: Diamler Benz DB 610A-1 (port) and B-1 (starbpord) 24 cylinder liquid-cooled engines, each rated at 2200kW (2,950 hp) for take-off
Performance: Max speed 488km/h (303mph) at 6100m (20,000 ft); max range 5500 km (3,417 miles) with two HS 293A; service ceiling 8000m (26,246 ft); time to 3050m (10,000ft) 10 minutes
Weights: empty equipped 16800kg (37,037 lbs); max take off 31000kg (68,342 ft)
Dimensions: wing span 31.44m (103 ft 1 in); length 22.00m (72 ft 1 in); height 6.39m (21 ft); wing area 102m squared (1,098 ft squared)
Armament one 7.9mm Mg-81J machine-gun in glazed nose; one 20mm mg-151/20 in front gondola; two 13mm Mg-131 in dorsal barbette; one 13mm Mg-131 in dorsal turret; one 20mm mg-151/20 in tail; internal weapons bay for 16 SC 50 bombs four SC 250 bombs or two SC 500 bombs; external pylons for two LMA III parachute sea mines, LT 50 torpedos, Henschel HS 293A or FX 1400 Fritz X missiles (guided w00t!!!)
Source: Warplanes of the Luftwaffe ISBN: 0-7607-2283-8
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http://www.geocities.com/pentagon/2833/luftwaffe/bomber/he177/he177data.html
Origin: Ernst Heinkel AG; also built by Arado Flugzeugwerke
Type: He 177, six-seat heavy bomber and missile carrier
Engines: two 2,950hp Daimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1, each comprising two inverted-vee-12 liquid-cooled engines geared to one propeller
Armament: (A-5/R2) one 7.92mm MG 81J manually aimed in nose, one 20mm MG 151 manually aimed at front of ventral gondola, one or two 13mm MG 131 in forward dorsal turret, one MG 131 in rear dorsal turret, one MG 151 manually aimed in tail and two MG 81 or one MG 131 manually aimed at rear of gondola; maximum internal bomb load 6,000kg, infrequently carried external load, two Hs 293 guided missiles, Fritz X guided bombs, mines or torpedoes (more if internal bay blanked off and racks added below it)
Speed: maximum speed (at 18,615kg) 472km/h
Climb: initial climb 260m/min
Ceiling: service ceiling 7,080m
Range: range with Fritz X or Hs 293 missiles (no bombs) about 5,000km
Weight: empty 16,800kg; loaded (A-5) 31,000kg
Wingspan: 31.44m
Length: 22m
Height: 6.4m
Crew: five/six
History: first flight (He 177V-1) 19 November 1939; (pre-production He 177A-0) November 1941; service delivery (A-1) March 1942; February 1943; first flight (He 277V-1) December 1943; (He 274, alias AAS 01A) December 1945
Users: Germany (Luftwaffe)
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http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/he177.html
Origin: Ernst Heinkel AG
Sub Contractor: Arado Flugzeugwerke
Type: Six-Seat Heavy Bomber and Missile carrier
Models: A-0 to A-5
First Flight:
V-1: November 19, 1939
A-0: November 1941
Service Delivery:
A-1: March 1942
A-5: February 1943
Engine: 2 Daimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1
Thrust: 2,950lb
Note: Each engine comprised of two V12 liquid cooled engines geared to one propeller.
Dimensions:
Span: 31.44m (103 ft. 1¼ in.)
Length: 22m (72 ft. 2 in.)
Height: 6.4m (21 ft.)
Weights: (A-5)
Empty: 37,038lb. (16,800 kg)
Loaded: 68,343lb (31,000kg)
Performance:
Maximum (at 41,000lb.): 295mph (472km/h)
Initial Climb: 853 ft/min (260m/min)
Service Ceiling: 26,500 ft (7080m)
Range with Fritz or Hs 293 missle: 3,107 miles (5000km)
Armament: A-5/R2:
One 7.92mm MG 81J manually aimed in nose
Ammunition: 2000 rounds
One 20mm MG 151 manually aimed in forward ventral gondola
Ammunition: 300 rounds
Two 13mm MG 131 in remote front dorsal turret
Ammunition: 750 rounds per gun
One 13mm MG 131 in electric aft dorsal turret
Ammunition: 750 rounds
One 20mm MG 151 cannon in in tail position
Ammunition: 300 rounds
Bomb Load: A-5/R2:
Sixteen 110 lb. (50kg) SC 50, four 551 lb. (250-kg) SC 250 or two 1,102 lb. (500 kg) SC 500, or two LMA III parachute sea mines, LT 50 torpedos, or Hs 293 of FX 1400 missiles.
Production:
8 Prototypes
35 He 177A-0 (Mainly Arado built)
130 He 177A-1 (Arado built)
170 He 177A-3 (Heinkel Built)
826 He 177A-5
Additional Images:
Image 1 - Captured He 177A-5 in flight.
Image 2 - He 177 being loaded.
Comments
Arguably the largest bomber built by the Germans, the He 177 suffered many flaws and turned into one of the Luftwaffe's biggest failures (when compare service use to the amount of resources invested.) A significant problem that plagued the program from the beginning was a ludicrous requirement that this extremely large aircraft be capable of dive bombing. This combined with the attempt to reduce drag by coupling the engines, while theoretically sound, proved to be impossible in practice for no aircraft in history had engines that would so readily burst into flame. 75% of the prototypes crashed and a good percentage of the 35 A-0 pre-production airframes were written off in crashed or in-flight fires.
About 700 served on the eastern front using 50mm and 75mm guns for tank-busting while a few brave aircrews ineffectually bombed England.
The He 177 proved to be such a big problem that Goering forbid Heinkel to develope a four engine version (though Heinkel did anyways, the result being the He 277).
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http://www.qt.org/worldwar/weapons/germany/luftwaffe/he177.html
Manufacturer: Ernst Heinkel AG
Type: heavy bomber
Engine: two Daimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1 (A-1 port and B-1 starboard) twenty-four-cylinder liquid-cooled engines, each rated at 2,950 hp
Max speed: 303 mph at 20,000 feet
Service ceiling: 26,246 feet
Max range: 3,417 miles
Weight: empty 37,037 lbs; loaded 59,996 lbs; maximum take-off 68,342 lbs
Dimensions: wingspan 103 feet, 1.75 inches; length 66 feet, 11.125 inches; height 21 feet
Armament: one MG 81 7.9-mm nose-mounted machine gun; one forward-firing 20-mm MG 151 cannon in ventral gondola; twin rear-firing MG 81 7.9-mm machine guns in ventral gondola; twin MG 131 13-mm machine guns in dorsal barbette; one MG 131 13-mm machine gun in dorsal turret; one MG 151 20-mm cannon in tail; internal bomb load 2,200 lbs; external racks for torpedoes, anti-shipping guided missiles, or parachute sea mines; maximum bomb load (internal and external) 13,200 lbs
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I may add that most design problems were solved till A-5 version, which was then built in decent numbers. Engines were disaster at earlier versions, some reliability problems still remained in A-5.
Anyway work to get He-177 to A-5 version required way too much resourses. Program was clear failure since there was no real need for few heavy bombers/not enough numbers to use He-177 en mass, but much resources were wasted.
He-177A-5 was very good heavy bomber. Especially performance wise. It was relatively fast, with huge bombload and good defensive guns. Numbers were simply too small to effectively operate in daylight. (imagine sending formation of 6 B17s for bombing attack in germany instead of 600. Changes to survive against fighters arent good)
He 177A-5 would be great addition to AH.
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Add it. Heavily produced or not, a plane of this sort is utterly essential for balancing out any potential Axis vs Allied arena setup. I'd rather see this than some junky He-111 or FW-200 or Do-17.
While we're discussing German multi-engine planes, how about adding a Ju-52 so Axis isn't stuck always using the C-47?
J_A_B
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Japan used Japanese C-47, L2D3.
I want it... :)
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Would consider the He177 a heavy bomber though ;)
Yes add it! We want it!
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Would rather see a soviet bomber added. That should be the Tu-2.
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us lw got plenty of toys fer now........
we need russian planes japanese italian even the raf needs some more.......
plus we really have nothing for pac stuff...........all late war
If anything I would prefer a he-111 or another version of the ju88
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Why in the love of Jesse axis should get another 1940 bomber like He-111? IMHO one is more than enough.
Dowding I thought Tu-2, propably model S, is already otw (Oh and it's also 1943-44 bomber with top speed of 300mph@SL, 340mph@18000ft).
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Totally Agree Staga.
yes, think Tu2 is otw, was some problems with finding good cockput photos or something like that though.
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ill never fly a he 177 in the main..........
I dont fly any buff in the main..........
However in a BoB or early east front scenario or ct setup a he111 would have a place...............
Why do we have a 109e spit 1 or hurri 1?
Thats why a he 111
but rather see migs lagg3 yak 1 or japanese aircraft way before he177..................
enough of the wunderwaffe stuff
Hansgeorg Bätcher: WWII Bomber Ace of Aces
(http://www.military.com/Content/MoreContent?file=PRbatcher)
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hehehe.........that's a new one!
Fix some of the planes we have now before adding more LW iron, give the 152 it's correct speed of 472 mph. Then add more perks to it cause it will be even more deadly than now. While you're at it, add the Spit XIV, unperked, since it is a peer to the 190D9 and the 109G10, both of which have similiar performance and are of the same relative time period. And neither of those are perked.
Add the He-177 about version 1.13 or so, fill out the earlier war planesets first.
Just my two cents, of course.
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Originally posted by eddiek
, add the Spit XIV, unperked,
Just my two cents, of course.
The spit XIV isn't like the Dora or G-10 from what i've heard, it's like them but much worse, it turns great. The MA has enough or a spit fetish as It is with like 40% of everyone in a Spit. Spit XIV should be added but a perk like 5-8 would be needed. Actually IMo the G-10, La-7, P-51D (hey the P-51B is still available), Dora. Should get a light perk too i have 800 fighter perks and wouldn't mind spending 3-5 perks on a flight in one of those monsters
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The Spitfire F.MkXIVc is my favorite WWII aircraft, bar none.
I want to say that so the perspective on what I say next is clear.
The Spitfire MkXIV must be perked. It would be horribly, horribly imbalancing to the MA if it were free. I hope that the perk value on it is low, and ideally it would just have a "Spit" icon as it entered service much earlier than any of the current perk planes and its low alt speed is just not enough to run from many things in the MA. 15-20 perk points should control it nicely.
Bring in a bubble canopy Spitfire MkXVI as a freebie. It is only a little better than the Spitfire F.IX we have and it is a true 1944 Spitfire.
As to German bombers, I would really like an He111 as it was one of the two most important German bombers (the other being the Ju88) and would, along with the Ju87, make the BoB much more doable. It would also be great for early Russian Front scenarios.
For a free "good" German bomber, I still favor the Ju188A-1 over the He177A-5.
The Japanese planeset in particular needs work, as well as the early American stuff.
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and I can see how it might unbalance the arena.
But looking at it from the perspective of performance alone, the Spit14 appears to fall into the same category as the above mentioned P51D, 109G10, 190D9, etc......all of which are unperked. Perking it before seeing what impact it might have is counterproductive, it penalizes the guys who love Spits just because they finally have a plane that on paper is a dead even match for the top notch 109/190. Spit turns better than either of them, G10 should outclimb or climb with Spit14, 190D9 is eternal E machine; perk one, perk them all IMO.
Back to the original subject of this thread (Sorry Soviet, didn't intend to hijack it) the LW could use a bomber in the future, I agree. But I can't see it as an immediate need to be honest.
But I don't fly buffs more than 3 or 4 times a tour, so what do I know? ;)
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Our Ju88 was a BoB bomber, why add a He111 aswell before a heavy buff? Scenarios happen a few times a year (unfortunatly not more often which I can understand) but what is needed is a He177 for MA use for the LW.
First, something russian though, and something Italian, one Italian fighter and one buff.
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Wilbus,
Ju88A-4 is a post-BoB bomber. The Ju88A-5 saw service in the BoB, but it had less powerful engines IIRC.
The only problem with only having the Ju88A-4 for BoB scenarios is that it makes all of the German bombers slightly better than the best few German bombers in the real thing.
Keep in mind, in AH attacking bombers is already harder than in reality because you're matching your fighter's speed (355mph for the Spit I, 416mph for an Fw190A-8) against the bomber's top speed (~280mph for the Ju-88A-4, B-17G) where in reality the bombers would be cruising at about 180-200mph. That is giving the bomber a whole hell of a lot more time to shot at you when you make any sort of rear attack, including a dive from above and behind.
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he-177 will die just as easy as any of the other buffs.
Theres nothing special about it. It wont last but .5 seconds longer in the air the a lanc or b17 or ju88.
Buffing in the main is a pointless excersive any way.
He-111 not only gives us a scenario buff but gives us something for the ct other then late war and fantasy set ups.
Peggies die just as easy with 20mm as they would with 7.9mm..
Hell go all out ask for a he-277
I dont want any more buffs............
I would rather seee more fighters all round...........
My squad which flies fighters 9 out of 10 sorties finishes near number 1 in buffs every tour. We dont do that because of the guns on the buff. We can do it in ju88s or do 17s or what ever.
I dont see how the axis are missing out on a hvy/med buff........
Even before 110s jaboing is the way to go..........
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A flight with 10 B17's is HELL OF alot harder to kill then a flight of Ju88's.
Sure a single buff won't last very long, but a He177 would give LW a big punch both vs planes and the ground, AND it can be used in scenarios.
He111 would only be used in early war sceanrios, which we don't see many of (maybe we will now with new plane setup though)
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I was under the impression the Tu-2 development was postponed indefinitely, but perhaps things have changed now.
I think there should be a later war He-111 or Ju-88 added, along with the Tu-2 and the glass nose mossie.
There are still gaps to be filled before the rare stuff should be introduced.
Perhaps when the He-177 is seen in the MA, we could have the Meteor III too.:p
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Originally posted by Dowding
There are still gaps to be filled before the rare stuff should be introduced.
Perhaps when the He-177 is seen in the MA, we could have the Meteor III too.:p
Rare? How is 1,200 produced rare? :rolleyes:
I'd love to see the He177, but I agree that the Japanese, Soviet, and Italian planesets need some more aircraft. Id like to see:
Tu2
P1008
G55
Mig3 or LaGG3
Kate or Val
A6M2
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I have to agree with some of my breathern on this one, I would love to see the He 177, but I feal Russia( TU-2, I-16), Italy(G 55 or Re 2005, Cant Z 1007),and Japan( Grace, Ki 84, A6M2), and Great Brition (Wellington, Beaufighter) are a little more in nead of love right now:)
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Yes, more italian, russian and japanese planes first. Specially Italitan, 2005 and a SM79
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Originally posted by brady
I have to agree with some of my breathern on this one, I would love to see the He 177, but I feal Russia( TU-2, I-16), Italy(G 55 or Re 2005, Cant Z 1007),and Japan( Grace, Ki 84, A6M2), and Great Brition (Wellington, Beaufighter) are a little more in nead of love right now:)
Thats exactly my point of view! Luftwaffe has enough planes for now. Add the P-39, P-40 and Mig3 or LaGG 3 to ur list and it's perfect
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Guys this thread was made for lobbying He-177. Start your own topics next time.
Thank you.
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He III still remains the essential LW bomber, any WWII sim really should include both the He III and Stuka.
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wtf is He3 ?
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He III gave me a sudden brain stop too ;)
He 111 :)
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Considering that HTC just released an almost complete BoB planeset, I wish they would just get it over with and finish it by adding the HE-111 and Stuka. One could argue that the planest would not be truly complete without the DO-217, but close enough in my book. :)
My only criticism of HTC and the way they release aircraft, is that they never seem to completely finish a particular genre planeset before heading into a different direction. But I know they have their reasons, I'm sure it's not as easy to do as I make it out to be.
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Compared to the Ju-88 and He-111 production figures, I'm sure the He-177 was rare. I'd rather see the back-bone of each AF in there, even if the version chosen was fairly rare, before lesser produced types are introduced.
Ageed banana. I so want to see the Stuka in AH. It's the perfect scenario plane and the G- version might get used in the MA. :)
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Aw heck...
Maybe HTC could model Blenheim and SB-2 too; Those were widely used in beginning of the war.
Why should HTC model a Tu-2 when Russians could have SB-2M with whopping 600-1000kg bomb load and 280mph top speed? I'm sure it would see lots of use in scenarios too thought no'one would use it in MA I believe...