Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sandman on March 18, 2002, 12:42:48 AM
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I usually disregarded the rants and whines against killshooter. TNB wasn't my style of fighting and I rarely got bit by it.
That is, until I started semi-exclusively flying the Zeke. It seems that I get killshot all the time. It never fails... I work the target down, work his energy down and then just as I'm about to finish the fight, somebody zooms in in front and I kill myself.
What exactly is the point of killshooter again? Why not simply make friendly bullets ineffective against friendly targets?
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LOL Sandman, I bet some one is going to tell u that the entire responsability is in the shooting plane. So, once you have your victim centered in your sight, you better keep a look at all directions to be sure no friendly plane is overpassing you by dead six or below (be sure to roll 180 degrees also to check that) :D :D :D
It has been discused over and over in the past, and it is really funny to see how the people is happy with this feature. It is even funnier to see how some ones try to justify it.
I suppose it was developed in an attempt to "educate" the newbies that keep at your six shooting through your plane trying to score some hits in the enemy at your 12. But the most common effect is just yours experience because, once "ducated" these newbies learnt to overpass you trying to steal your kill and forcing yourself to stop shooting or be killed.
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It happens to me once in a while. I sware and snort, then usually start laughing at my stupidity before my fluttering plane hits the ground.
I would rather that than get shot down by the guy behind me .. I mean how am I going to steal your kill if you can shoot me down too?:eek:
Then there is the newbie taking off and trying to shoot down his own countryman ... I really love to see the guy saw his own wing off thinking I'm the easiest kill he's ever had.
If anything make the bullets have NO effect when hitting a friendly.
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Mandoble,
Please see my signature
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Originally posted by MANDOBLE
I suppose it was developed in an attempt to "educate" the newbies that keep at your six shooting through your plane trying to score some hits in the enemy at your 12. But the most common effect is just yours experience because, once "ducated" these newbies learnt to overpass you trying to steal your kill and forcing yourself to stop shooting or be killed.
Given the choice between losing the kill and losing my aircraft, I'll take the former... at least I'm still airborne.
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Why not just enable friendly collisions lets say 1k away from airfields so no colisions during takeoffs and landings. Because most of those 'zoomers' who are trying to take your kill after you work the enemy down in most cases zoom throgh your plane... ? Just my $0.02 :confused:
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If friendly bullets did no harm, then the whole conga line would be spraying and praying. You want to be killed by someone shooting through his team mates?
Killshooter as it is now is the best compromise for gameplay.
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If you're dragging a conga line, you're already dead.
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I think you have to remember why is was first put in place and HTC has stated (many many times) that it will not be changed. Aces high is not an exclusive club where mature pilots come together to enjoy a good furball or land grab. Oh no, It's actually full of problems and snot nosed kids that would LOVE to sit at the end of a run way and shoot you plane everytime you took off and there would be almost nothing you could do about it. How may people would it take to shut down a whole country with this taict? 20? 30? Could you imagine a place where N1k2s shoot you down because that beleive you stole their kill? I don't think I'd have much fun, do you?
A**holes are real and they are all around you and they are contained by the killshooter. I think to remove it would kill a wonderful game.
Turning it off would allow the minority to rule and ruin it for everyone.
ever played counter-strike with "killshooter" off?
:D
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I have the solution. I'll fly NiK, La7 and P51D. You'll almost never find anyone flying in front of you and your kill in these aircraft.
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Are you shooting with the view zoomed in pretty far?
I can see how zooming and reducing your FOV might cause you to not notice an incomming friendly. This is why I refuse to use the zoom feature.
J_A_B
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On the zeke, you almost have to use the zoom. The gun pipper is quite small on default view. I don't have it all the way in though. I can still see the bullet counters while zoomed.
The problem, I think, it the speed. The zeke is slow and real easy to get in front of.
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Originally posted by Sandman_SBM
I
That is, until I started semi-exclusively flying the Zeke. It seems that I get killshot all the time. It never fails... I work the target down, work his energy down and then just as I'm about to finish the fight, somebody zooms in in front and I kill myself.
yeah and i always picture the guy as having a lollipop in their mouth, an eager look on their face, some band from the cover of teen beat blaring in the back ground and mom rapping on the door telling them dinner's ready.
"hehehehe loops are fun vroooom ......ok ma hold on....man this nik is the shiznit DewD!!!"
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I like it, leave it alone. :p
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I like Killshooter... so long as I don't die to it... When I do though... its not killshooter to blame it the idjit that just dove in...
I've died to killshooter perhaps 3-4 times in all the time I've played AH (when gunning)
BUT whoopee int guys when i am dropping hangars at an enemy field don't fly through em +( Died twice in the last 2 days because of this...
Took the time to grab a lanc, climb to 15k, fly over a huge furball, and then die cuz someone wanted a vulch through a hangar..
SKurj
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Killshootr stops the dweebs from spray and praying like mad from behind ya....
if all you do is fly around at 20+k then either way it dont bother you.
No one "likes" killshootr much like no one "likes" the colision model but its the only practical way to do it.
They guy who "flies in front of you" may not on his fe. He may by d300 above or below you. So the responsiblity to ensure a clean shot is yours.
Because of lag no one can purposely killshootr you nor can they purposely ram you.
You pull the trigger and die its your fault. I mean the guy isn't spawning in front of you........hes coming from some where trying to get a kill like you. Its up to you to look around ......
SA aint just about badguys. One could argue that if the other guy over takes you and gets in a position where you ks yourself that in fact you shoulda broke off because the other guy clearly has the advantage.
Sure you'll screw up and not make sure you have a clear shot. Sure you'll get target fixated and pull the trigger rather then concede the advantage......and killshooter sux after all thats your kill right............
That other guy is is just stealing your kill right......?
Everything that hapens on you end is your fault......
you killshotr
you collide
you die in any way its your fault
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Kill shooter works ok. The solution an "unnamed sim" that is no longer around used, was to make you persona non grata in your country for 24 hours if you killed 2 friendlies. Worked pretty well IIRC.
OTOH this concept of kill stealing is still foreign to me. If the enemy dies I don't care who killed him/her. This is still the most illogical reason for a whine I have seen on the boards.
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Nearly always TnB, would not want anything different about killshooter.
Unless you are that worried about score, you should be happy you got him low and slow for the bottom feeders and move on without even pursuing.
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Originally posted by Wotan
Killshootr stops the dweebs from spray and praying like mad from behind ya....
In my experience, nothing stops dweebs from spray and praying.
if all you do is fly around at 20+k then either way it dont bother you.
Like I said, in the past it didn't
No one "likes" killshootr much like no one "likes" the colision model but its the only practical way to do it.
That's what is always said. Has anything else ever been tried, ever?
They guy who "flies in front of you" may not on his fe. He may by d300 above or below you. So the responsiblity to ensure a clean shot is yours.
I disagree. If you're horning in on someone else's kill, you know it. You're just racing to get their first and hoping your FE doesn't kill you.
Because of lag no one can purposely killshootr you nor can they purposely ram you.
I disagree. My lag isn't that bad. If I can fly in formation at 30-50 klicks, I can certainly cause a killshot or ram you.
You pull the trigger and die its your fault. I mean the guy isn't spawning in front of you........hes coming from some where trying to get a kill like you. Its up to you to look around ......
When the trigger is pulled and the friendly appears in front of me, I'm going to use golf words.
SA aint just about badguys. One could argue that if the other guy over takes you and gets in a position where you ks yourself that in fact you shoulda broke off because the other guy clearly has the advantage.
Maybe that other guy should go kill something else rather than cash in on the fruits of someone else's labor.
Sure you'll screw up and not make sure you have a clear shot. Sure you'll get target fixated and pull the trigger rather then concede the advantage......and killshooter sux after all thats your kill right............
That other guy is is just stealing your kill right......?
Exactly.
Everything that hapens on you end is your fault
you killshotr
you collide
you die in any way its your fault
It's not about assigning blame. It's about finding another way to fix the supposed problem. I think the cure is worse than the disease.
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Besides, are you seriously stating that you can actually get a kill in a plane as slow as a zeke without having stolen it from somebody somewhere along the way?
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The fruits of your labor....
Come on man, get serious.
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Originally posted by Fatty
Besides, are you seriously stating that you can actually get a kill in a plane as slow as a zeke without having stolen it from somebody somewhere along the way?
Absolutely. You should try it. :)
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Originally posted by FDisk
ever played counter-strike with "killshooter" off?
:D
Hmm... maybe Im a bit strange person but I never play counterstrike with kilshooter on (if you mean the mode when you hit friendly and no damage on his nor your end). Since CS is team-based game and you don't know how to shoot someone has to pay the price. But I don't think that comparing AH to CS is relevant to problem of AH's killshooter. And if you ask me then Il reply that - 'Yes! I like Counterstike killshooter more than the AH's one because in CS I always know where my teammates are and I dont shoot them!' :)
Edit:
But I shoot Hostages because CTs are often hiding behind them and with that Kalashnikov I use is pretty hard to hit only 1 target when there are 2 hiding behind one another :D
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Oh I've done my zeke kills, never did get a chance to whine about killshooter in it though.
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I like the idea of friendly collisions... it works in IL2...
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Gotta register my opinion on killshooter once again:
I HATE IT as it stands currently. It is a complete over-reaction to a very minimal problem, and has created much larger and even more annoying problems. It needs to be modified.
The purpose of killshooter is to keep grief players from hosing lotsa friendlies. No question, it accomplishes this mission by making it utter suicide even to attempt fragging. However, it is so heavy-handed that it causes serious problems for legitimate players. These problems, IMHO, out-weigh any good killshooter does. Furthermore, killshooter actively fosters the spread of another type of grief player: the kill-stealer.
Granted, there needs to be something in place to keep griefing down to an acceptable level. However, killshooter is directly responsible for an unacceptable level of griefing by kill-stealers. Knowing they're completely safe from friendly bullets, they habitually cut in front of the guy whose done all the work, steal his kill, and make him shoot himself down. Plus they retain their own E because they didn't have to do any work, so they can do this over and over. What fun!
Don't tell me you don't see this happening 24/7. Killshooter is the ONLY reason for the conga lines of 5-6 guys chasing 1 low nme, as each guy desperately tries to cut in front of all the others. You know they're more interested in stealing the kill and robbing each other than with playing the game, because engaging in such chases is obviously tactically and stretegically disadvantageous.
Therefore, killshooter should be replaced immediately with a PNG system similar to, but not quite exactly, what DOS AW had. The AW system worked very well, but had 2 problems HT has objected to in previous killshooter discussions: 1) it didn't go into effect until the end of your sortie, so you could cause mucho grief before then; and 2) you could then switch countries and do it again.
To avoid these problems and those of the present killshooter, I propose the following system:
- Your bullets normally work just fine on friendlies. If some kill-stealing dweeb cuts in front of you, he dies.
- However, if you kill 2 friendlies within some short time interval (a couple hours or so), you become PNG immediately.
- When you become PNG, killshooter turns on for you. For the rest of your sortie, any hits on friendlies do damage to you like they do now.
- At the end of the sortie in which you go PNG, you cannot fly at again for 24 hours. This ban is in effect for all countries, so you can't switch sides and keep fragging.
I believe this system accomplishes all the goals of a) preventing grief fragging, b) preventing grief kill-stealing, c) making pilots be more careful when they shoot, and d) preventing idiotic conga lines.
In my system, killshooter's only purpose is to bring fragging sprees to an instant end. After that, PNG keeps the fragger grounded. Neither should normally encumber the legitimate pilot who accidentally blows away a couple of kill thieves over the course of an evening, at least after the community adapts to the new system.
Sure, it's possible to go PNG completely by accident if you kill too many kill-stealers. This can suck, but it's VERY rare. In my experience with such a system in DOS AW, I went PNG this way maybe once every 6 months. I fragged a kill-stealer maybe once every couple of weeks, but hardly ever did I get 2 of them in the same evening. Simple reason for that: there weren't many kill-stealers in the arena because everybody knew cutting in front was suicide.
So don't base assumptions on how often you'd go PNG on the frequency of your deaths to today's killshooter. Simply because killshooter exists, people cut in front of you ALL THE TIME. Once they learn they'll die doing that, they won't cut in front any more.
Anyway, bottom line: Killshooter is effective at it's job, but is such over-kill that it has created a set of new problems both more common and more annoying than the occasional grief fragger ever was. It needs to be changed. Having everybody able to kill 1 friendly ever few hours poses a serious deterent to kill-stealers without the heavy-handedness of killstealer. No more grief kill-stealing, no more conga lines. It also gives legit players some cushion so that they are unlikely to go PNG just in the normal course of business. At the same time, however, this system keeps grief fragging down to an acceptable level. Once you wax 2 guys, you're done for the day. 2 guys in an arena of 400+ isn't even noticeable except to the 2 guys involved. Especially when the true grief fragger is a very rare visiter to the arena.
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Hmm... maybe Im a bit strange person but I never play counterstrike with kilshooter on (if you mean the mode when you hit friendly and no damage on his nor your end). Since CS is team-based game and you don't know how to shoot someone has to pay the price. But I don't think that comparing AH to CS is relevant to problem of AH's killshooter. And if you ask me then Il reply that - 'Yes! I like Counterstike killshooter more than the AH's one because in CS I always know where my teammates are and I dont shoot them!'
That's great in theory. I'd LOVE to play without KS but the reality of the situation (and the point of my arguement) is not avoiding shooting other people but stopping the dweebs who spray randomly at the beginning of the round killing 1/2 the team and ruining to for everyone.
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And really I dont see the killshooter as it is now a big problem. When I look into the past I died from KS about 2 or 3 times for the whole 2 yrs Im in here.... Well once I killed myself this way in Tempest... since then I better do not shoot if im not 150% sure that I hit the bad guy and not some other wiseguy's ass. But I really enjoy flying in packs of about 20 greens chasing franticaly 1 poor red guy on the deck... Im not shooting... Just swiming in other ppl's spray-streams and enjoying them going boom... :rolleyes: You have to try this one day its pretty relaxing :D
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Originally posted by FDisk
That's great in theory. I'd LOVE to play without KS but the reality of the situation (and the point of my arguement) is not avoiding shooting other people but stopping the dweebs who spray randomly at the beginning of the round killing 1/2 the team and ruining to for everyone.
EXACTLY! and therefore I say: Leave KS as it is (at least in MA)
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Originally posted by Bullethead
Gotta register my opinion on killshooter once again:
I HATE IT as it stands currently. It is a complete over-reaction to a very minimal problem, and has created much larger and even more annoying problems. It needs to be modified.
...
Excellent post, Bullethead. Couldn't have said it better.
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MadBirdCZ said:
But I really enjoy flying in packs of about 20 greens chasing franticaly 1 poor red guy on the deck... Im not shooting... Just swiming in other ppl's spray-streams and enjoying them going boom... :rolleyes: You have to try this one day its pretty relaxing :D
This is EXACTLY why killshooter sucks in its present form :)
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Originally posted by Bullethead
MadBirdCZ said:
This is EXACTLY why killshooter sucks in its present form :)
Oh! Come on! Im not trying to steal their kill :D
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How about:
1) Friendly Collisions enabled when over 1k AGL.
2) Bullet strikes on friendly planes do no damage, to either plane unless # 3 happens.
3) If system registers more than 40 hits from a friendly plane, friendly plane thats firing gets killshot.
This would get rid of the "fly through friendly plane to steal kill" issue (at least above 1k AGL), the "spray like mad to get kill" when there's a friendly in front.. because if you hit the friendly with 40 bullets or more, YOU go to the tower. Accidental killshots (aka, if someone flies in front of YOU and your jinking d100 con) are minimized, perhaps even made impossible since it would be hard to put in 40 bullets into someone UNLESS you keep shooting when they fly in front.
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you haven't earned a kill till you see the msg......
nothing in ah is yours
nothings more annoying then being on a guys six and having dweebs spraying from behind you. In that circumstance i will fly into the guys stream to ks him on purpose. Just like i will shoot your troops if I ask 100 times on channel 2 is someone has goon ib and no one answers. I then spend 15 min driving an m3 there to see someone already droppin troops. Like purposely ks'ing someone nothing beats hearing on channel 2. "Damn, I dropped troops but I didn't get the capture."
I disagree. My lag isn't that bad. If I can fly in formation at 30-50 klicks, I can certainly cause a killshot or ram you.
Thats my point you know where there other guy is. He may see himself d300 away from you. If you know hes there and pull the trigger and die so what its on you.
Killshootr works great. you decide how and when to fire. you no where folks are on your fe. You can look around and now when you lose the advantage to a country mate.
HT answered killshootr it stays as is. No one owes you a 1 v 1. If you get ks'd cause I get in front of you that kill is mine and if you die so what use better sa and judgement. Anyway just because your on a guys 6 dont mean you'll get the kill. I get away plenty of times with guys d200 my 6. The main is a meat grinder everytime you die its your fault.
I dont care what they did in aw I didnt fly there cause it sucked.
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How long before the collision system comes up again?
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The thing I really hate in AH is the collision model :D
Only Kidding:)
Kill shooter works, I spent a year TNB'n and only bought it once. Nowadays the only time I get killshootered is when im vulchin a flat base and when it happens it serves me right for vulchin in the first place. Wont stop me doin it tho
Gremlin.
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I think that friendly collisions should be enabled when altitude is greater than 5k but less than 15k or greater than 20k but less than 30k, if airspeed is less than 300 and greater than 100, provided flaps are less than 30% deployed. Combined killshooter should be enalbed if the shooting plane has turned more than 45 degrees in less than 15 seconds, or more than 90 degrees in less than 30 seconds, but turned off if ranged target is less than 100 yards regardless, as long as there has been less than 180 degrees variation in heading over the past 120 seconds. If airspeed is greater than 300 but less than 400, add 15 degrees to heading variation allowances.
Or you could just keep killshooter and pay attention.
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HT... you mean all this is old hat..
or you don't like the friendly collision thing...
or that this topic will bring up a different 'whine'
??
lol fatty
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Remove killshooter when bombing +)
SKurj
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friendly colisions will piss umm the same way......it would only be a colision if you see it on your front end..........
if on my fe im above ya and on your fe i flying through you, into you or what ever...
you die simple as that
then imagine the beetchin.........
if you are gonna cry because u pulled the trigger and your bullets hit a friendly and you die as a result of your actions we can imagine what you would do when you die in a friendly colision and and the other guy lives.
Everything works well .............
if you die its your fault.............
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Originally posted by Wotan
Everything works well .............
If you say this thirty more times, we'll all believe you and drop the matter. :D
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I drop a 4k bomb from 20k, hmm thats what? about 10 seconds or more until it hits the ground.. Is it MY fault if someone tries to strafe the town at 10ft after the bomb is already enroute +)
Otherwise i like KS
SKurj
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im not the one with problems I am happy with ks even more happy now that i know it actually kills folks......
:D
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sry skurj is it the guys fault who happens to be straffin a fh unaware a bomb is ib? is he stealing your fh kill? or just playing the game ..:)
I agree it sux in that context but accidents happen..........
are you gonna start a new thread every time that happens tho?
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>>The problem, I think, it the speed. The zeke is slow and real easy to get in front of.<<
Sandman:
I submit to you that is not the problem at all
:D
The problem is the desperate dweeb who would dive in on you and steal your kill. This is especially evident in furballs where there is an absence of check 6 calls from countrymen, and a great amount of guys who see you after an nme and dive down on you both to claim your kill. LOL! Yesterday, I was chasing an Me-110 and checked my 6 as I was gaining on my prey; I looked just in time to see a dweeb dive over and directly in front of me in his faster P-51 and about 6 others right behind him!:D
I simply turned away and grabbed for alt, with the hope that they would all become easy meat for nme fiters lying in wait for just such a situation :D
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>>If you say this thirty more times, we'll all believe you and drop the matter. <<
There's no place like home. There's no place like home
:D
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Heh Wotan.. I have just been flying buffs abit more often lately, and it happened to me 2x in as many days. I can go a month or more without a KS gunnery death +)
The second time i had even rearmed and was on my second trip in a lanc +(
It just peed me off
SKurj