Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: GtoRA2 on March 18, 2002, 06:55:53 PM
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Who all pre ordered theirs?
I did and if the GF finds out what it really cost I am soo dead!!
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Shipping date has been delayed again.
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Just wait until GF --> W
:)
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I did.
Shipping dates are only delayed if you don't live in the US or Canada.
The US distributors complained because so many US residents canceled their orders to order from Europe. Thus the release was pushed back to be simultaneos with the release in North America.
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How muh is this running and where are u pre ordering at? I live in US.
Thanx in advance
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$270 through chips & bits (http://www.cdmag.com/cgi-bin/order.cbi_home?client=6485&source=10678&page=catalogs/home.html&newpage=catalogs/pchardware_home.html).
$280 through flight sim central (http://www.fscentral.com/default.asp).
It is absolutely worth that price.
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The US distributors complained because so many US residents canceled their orders to order from Europe. Thus the release was pushed back to be simultaneos with the release in North America.
LOL! That sounds a bit contrived to me.
AKDejaVu
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Ordered mine from chips and bits when they were listed as $249. I sure hope I still get that price :eek:
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I have the thrustmaster afterburner HOTAS.
$55.00 No delay got it the same day that i went and looked at it. I cant see paying 270. thats utterly rediculous. I think you can buy a CH throttle and stick for less than that.
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Let me ask a dumb question. What could a stick costing $270 do for your game that a stick costing $60 cant? Don't say extra buttons. I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know.:confused:
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Well I hope for the guys that bought it that it is nothing like other TM sticks . I'll keep my $30, 4 year old digital/optical that still works like new . I must say though I've had my TM pedals for 3 years and they've never failed . I used TM sticks in the past that totally sucked, not as bad as saitek, but still .
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Originally posted by MOTJD
I have the thrustmaster afterburner HOTAS.
$55.00 No delay got it the same day that i went and looked at it. I cant see paying 270. thats utterly rediculous. I think you can buy a CH throttle and stick for less than that.
I use the same system and it works great. Like you, I don't see the justification for the extra $220.
My regards,
Widewing
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Let me ask a dumb question. What could a stick costing $270 do for your game that a stick costing $60 cant? Don't say extra buttons. I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know
Many of the rotaries and hats can be used as an axis meaning you could use them for things like rudders etc, the microstick wil lbe useful for sims like IL-2 and AH that allows mouse panning, its got many more buttons over the likes of the cheaper TM sticks infact more than most sticks and the programmability waaaaaay surpasses anything on the market today. As well as catering for new players with point and click programming its flexibility allows very advanced ways to create any possible combination of commands. On top of this its made completely of metal which makes it more expensive but a hell of a lot more rugged. The base, the stick the buttons and hat switches are all metal. My previous TM sticks lasted me around 5 or more years each so combined with the quality electronics this metal stick you can expect to have this stick on your desk for years. It's all USB and allows gameport rudders to be plugged into the front and programemd through the stick and the firmware on the stick is flash upgradeable. The pots used in the stick have greater resolution than most sticks today if not all and combined with the stiff return springs this makes for precise movement.
Well I could go on but now you probably think I'm a TM rep :) I'm just a happy TM customer from years back and glad to see a new high end TM stick after not being completely happy with half a dozen other sticks from CH, MS and Saitek.
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Originally posted by NHFoxtro
Let me ask a dumb question. What could a stick costing $270 do for your game that a stick costing $60 cant? Don't say extra buttons. I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know.:confused:
I've purchased over the last 2 years a MS FF for $149, and two Saiteks $99 and $40 respectfully.
I guess one could equate the price of a Cougar to a current GF4 vs. a GF2 video card, both will "do the job" but the GF4 does it better.
Here's a list of functions for the Cougar:
Adjustable resistance for throttle, adjustable afterburner and idle detent
Full speed USB delivers responses 8x faster than classical USB plugs
Flash upgradeable hardware
High definition digital axes. The Digital Axes eliminated the dead spots that could appear over time with analog axes
Compatible with standard analog rudder
Removable handle to tune the set with the simulated aircraft
Stick handle will be changeable to provide more options for the user
28 buttons and multiple hat switches which are all programmable, providing thousands of functions
Offers 5 to 10 axes
18 pound springs for solid resistance
Provides 16k of internal memory for the programming files
Creates 3 real hardware peripheral IDs for maximum compatibility
Warranted for 2 years against manufacturing defects
Practically all metal construction - (there's a small component on the throttle that's plastic but not that you'd notice). Even the hats and buttons are metal! Being metal, the joystick and throttle are heavy - weighing in at 18 pounds together!!
Strong springs provide excellent resistance similar to the older TM F-22 PRO for accurate flying. It will be possible as well to replace these springs with those of different tension
The joystick handle is replaceable and just unscrews from the base. ThrustMaster are planning on producing other joystick handles, like that of the F-18/F-15.
Compared to the older TM F-22 PRO, the hats have longer shafts and stand away from the body of the handle more, thus offering a longer throw and greater control. Much easier getting those corner positions first time now.
The information from all of its axes and buttons and feeds that data from the joystick into your computer through a single USB connector. Note that everything - the throttle (and gameport rudders if you have them) plug into the joystick. The advantage of that is that the Cougar is seen as a single device by Windows with lots of axes and buttons.
24MHz internal processor (the F-22 PRO used a 4MHz processor)
64KB of external memory for storing flash files, calibration data and downloaded joystick files. Everything is stored on the joystick - this is essentially a driverless system running entirely in hardware.
Flash upgradeable firmware, for any new features and even more programmability.
3000 distinct values on the main joystick axes for much finer control in flying, with the potential to increase this through firmware. Note that all other controllers and previous TM controllers distinguish only 256 distinct values from the joystick X and Y axes.
256 distinct values on the remaining axes (Throttle, Range and Antenna knobs, etc.)
Approx. 30ms frame times
High precision sealed potentiometers for spike free accurate flying
Autocalibrating or manual calibration modes
Joystick: 2 axes, 4 - 4 way hats programmable in 9 positions, (Up, Down, Left, Right, 4 corners and centre position), a dual stage trigger and 4 other buttons.
Throttle: 5 axes, 4 way Radio switch, 3 way dogfight switch, 2 way airbrakes switch with momentary and locking positions, Range and Antenna rotaries with centre detents on each and incorporating another switch on the depressible Range knob, and a 2 axis microstick itself incorporating another switch. Connects to the joystick through a 1.8m cable.
Real-time and multi-layer adjusting of axis data (curve, trim, reverse, etc.) - Now you can for example damp down the response from your
joystick for landing and increase it for dog fighting, all in flight
Capable of including different calibration profiles per joystick file
Capable of outputting 16 characters per frame
Capable of processing statements with delays up to 23 hours!
Capable of releasing active macros in hardware after a state change to prevent sticky keys
Capable of handling macros of several Kb in length
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We'll my question was definatly answered, Thank you, but I will stick with my primitive precision pro and still blow you guys out of the sky while your getting use to all your new features and gadgets hehehehe
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Does the cougar use optical or resistive devices?
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They are using pots
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Ed the crime donkey says don't do pots, they cause spikes even when clean .
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Just bought me that TM afterburner2 it's complete hotas for 60 euro.
It's simple and i like that
only wish it had dual throttle
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Yes they are using pots, very high quality ones. I quote from an interview with TM explaining the reasons.
When I went to spend time with TM out in Montreal, they were looking at the three options available, namely pots, magnetic and optical devices. Many people assume that optical devices are the way to go. Apart from the fact that they're expensive, the main argument against using them, is that they have very poor resolution for use in a joystick. The ideal resolution for a pot is greater than your screen resolution. So if you had a cursor that is one pixel on your screen and you were using it as an aiming reticule in some space sim, you'd love to be able to move it up one pixel at a time. So if you are looking at a 1280 x 1024 screen, that's what you want as the resolution from your pots. Of course that's not what you get from today's controllers.
If you look at the digital TM controllers, the values from them lie in the range 0 - 255 which is 256 discrete values. With the Cougar it's about 4-5 times better than that, so it's well over 1000. (At this point James moved the stick a little and the cursor on the screen moved in tiny increments). See, much much better. So we weren't impressed with optical solutions with their poor resolution. Everyone liked the response from good quality pots, and the decision was made to go with those.
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For me, it's the all metal construction and the springs, I tend to over control with light springs.
Also I have owned CH products and liked them, but they are way to light in the springs for me.
Thrustmaster is a good company I bought my F22 from them 5 years ago, and it still works, although I cant get it to programme right, I called them a year after I bought it cause it was spiking and they sent out new pots just like that.
Great customer service, in my case.
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Originally posted by NHFoxtro
Let me ask a dumb question. What could a stick costing $270 do for your game that a stick costing $60 cant? Don't say extra buttons. I'm not being sarcastic, I really want to know.:confused:
Main reason for me is that it will be the most programmable joystick I have come across. It's is also built to last and not fall apart in a short time. It is not that expensive compared to my CH gear that will be consigned to the bin probably. In fact the cost is about the same as my CH gear was.
Why pay that much? Because I can :D
Flying has always been a hobby. However I cannot afford the real thing anymore so flight sims are the next best thing for me.
You think $270 is expensive. It is £249 here in the UK, virtually no matter where you buy it. That equals $355 at todays exchange rates. And the Cougar is being sourced in Europe I am led to believe.
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For $270 it better shoot down planes for me.
I'll stick with my 3 year old $60 MS Pre Pro that has never let me down.
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
Also I have owned CH products and liked them, but they are way to light in the springs for me.
Thrustmaster is a good company I bought my F22 from them 5 years ago, and it still works, although I cant get it to programme right, I called them a year after I bought it cause it was spiking and they sent out new pots just like that.
Great customer service, in my case.
Till now I have stuck by CH gear. Flossy and myself both have the same setup. However since I cannot easily reprogram the Pro Throttle/Fighterstick anymore as I am using Windows XP I have to change. I know CH have brought out a USB version of their stuff, but I still think they should support people who still have their other "expensive" sticks. Speedkeys always was crap anyway. It's still in beta!
I did try TM sticks a number of years ago. The throttle was a WCS mk2 I seem to remember. Not sure what the stick was, but I was not very happy about the quality of construction. I think things have come on a long way since those days. I have downloaded the programming manuals for the Cougar and it is certainly very flexible.
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The toejam uses pots.
Resolution what ? When the pot wears, all the resolution goes down the toilet.
Perhaps they should've put down few optical mice and put the parts into the Cougar, if they don't have the know-how.
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I cannot disagree that paying more for quality is the way to go, but has anyone tried the Cougar yet? You arent going to tell me that for the first time in your life you are going to believe a sales ad? I hope you dont buy your clothes or shoes just cause Some Jock on TV says they are the way to go.. heh heh. I will wait a year and listen to all those people whine cause they spent 270 on a stick that isnt really any better than their old one cept its alot heavier, and rusts. Anyways by that time the price will have dropped to about 150. then ill buy one.
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I'm guessing its going to have software to run it, so you know what that means.
As for programability, with AH's kick butt stick mapping and axis selection, why do you need it ?
I bought a MS pre pro years ago, since then I've bought many sticks, saitek, tm, gravis, etc. But you know what I've been using since 1.02, my MS stick. Why ?, because it NEVER spikes, no software, no windows setup, just plug it in, never needs calibrated. Nothing has ever worn out on it, and if my regular throttle or pedals fail me, the stick has a throttle and rudder on it .
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Hristo> You've already whined about this on SimHQ, you took it to Cougar World and were duely answered by the Cougar team, the answers were simple, optical devices don't give the same resolution and magnetic sensors would make the Cougar too expensive due to the ammount needed for the stick (ie not just X & Y axis) The new pots are sealed and the team have used the electronics in old converted F22 sticks for over a year.
Samm> Yes you can use the software that comes with the stick and its easy to use but the stick is also DirectX compatible so you can map buttons directly in any of your sims using the sims own joystick mapper. Of course if you require something a little more complicated than a keypress you'll need to use the software as you would with any other stick.
MOTJD> As a previous owner of TM sticks ( a PFCS, WCSII, F16FLCS and TQS) I'm more than happy to place my pre-order for a Cougar, the quality of TM for me has been unmatched by any other joystick manufacturer. I doubt the Cougar's price will drop so dramatically as you say, its not like any other stick, its expensive yes but its not built like any other stick.
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Speaking for myself, no joystick is worth a days wages . Secondly I've never had a TM joystick that didn't crap out or that I didn't take back for a refund, so you see why I have little confidence in this one . $270 for a stick throttle combo ! Thats just insulting, and even if I did need it I would refuse to pay that price as a matter of principal .
My advice to anyone considering purchasing this is to shop around first and try out as many sticks as you can before paying that ridiculous price . And if you do buy it make sure you get an unconditional money back guarentee, or order through a merchant like compusa so that if you don't like it for any reason you can take it back withing 30 days for a full refund .
Just watching my fellow flightsimers sixes, looks like someone is trying to make suckers out of us .
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Chips & Bits baby! Just can' t wait.
I'll address a few points brought up.
First off, as to believing their ads. I'm not doing that as much as betting on their past history of producing high-end flight simulation gear. And I'm not talking about the TM branded Guillermot crap that many of you think of when you hear "Thrustmaster." I'm harking back to the days of the F-16 FLCS and the WCS and the TQS. Original TM gear was and is the best stuff ever produced for our hobby. CH, Saitek, MS ... All pretenders. Every word so far has said that the new stuff will be going back in that direction.
Secondly, someone asked why you'd even need all that programming with AH's built in stuff. Well, to start, some of us ocassionally play something other than AH. Not all games have the good built in stick mapping that AH does. And even AH's is limited, IMO. The aftermarket stuff (Old TM, the CH program I'm using now, and certainly the new TM) allows for key combinations that just aren't possible with the AH built in mapping. Macros in particular. And I much prefer to use a [shift] type key on the controllers to change the way my buttons operate. I hated using stick sets for the short time I tried to fly with them. That way I don't have to rely on memory or visual cues to know if my controls are in landing/fighting/bombing mod.
Thirdly, the feel. Anyone who's ever played with high quality controls will never be satisfied with anything else. I am counting the days until I can relegate my CH stuff to my secondary gaming system and get back to using TM stuff. Heavier springs, solid bases and metal construction are a god-send.
As for pots ... I've never had any trouble with them. Had a failure with another part of my old TM stuff (which I've never gotten around to fixing), but the pots always worked just fine. They're noramlly replaceable and easy to clean if they did start giving me trouble anyways.
Peopl ask why anyone would want or need something so expensive/complicated/etc. Comfort & convenience. You could get around on a horse, but you'd rather drive a car to work right?
D
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Pre-ordered my at Flight Sim Central back in July.
The Cougar looks like a stick designed at the high end market. Something actually built with quality in mind. I'll support that with my $$$. I can afford to.
Of course, if it turns out to be a pile of crap... I'll be plenty upset. But I'm confident that is a low risk result.
BTW... Guillemont was not entirely responsible for TM's demise... not even remotely. Suits moved in when they started getting big and promptly left their core customer behind in search of greener pastures. They quickly discovered that people willing to pay the bare minimum and pay solely on that criteria were a hard crowd to capture. You have to do it with volume and inexpensive manufacturing. That results in the crap they served up in the mid-late 90s. Guillemont bought them after that.
I remember the FCS, the F-16 and the F-22. They were all sticks that set the standard in the marketplace (after the F-22 pot fiasco was resolved). The TQS is still the most coppied format for a throttle on the market.
So... criticise others for doing what they want with their money. I'll sit back and chose to spend mine on a Cougar. Ripsnort would too.. if he didn't blow it all on an overpriced BMW.
AKDejaVu
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I cannot disagree that paying more for quality is the way to go, but has anyone tried the Cougar yet? You arent going to tell me that for the first time in your life you are going to believe a sales ad? I hope you dont buy your clothes or shoes just cause Some Jock on TV says they are the way to go.. heh heh. I will wait a year and listen to all those people whine cause they spent 270 on a stick that isnt really any better than their old one cept its alot heavier, and rusts. Anyways by that time the price will have dropped to about 150. then ill buy one.
I am not basing my choice on a sales ad! I knew about this project long before the prats in advertising started to mess around with it. There are a number of respected beta testers who have been trying the Cougar for a while now. The thing has been in development for a few years now and been discussed in various forums to great length, particularly during the beta test period. So from what I have read I have confidence in it and will probably buy it. I am not going by a "sales ad", I am basing my judgement on deep discussions within a forum, similar to this, over a long period of time. Yes the first ones may have bugs, but least it's flash programable. I will take my chances. If you get it for 150 in a years time, good for you mate. I'm not jealous.
You wait a year. I don't blame you, it's a good idea. It's a good job everyone didn't have that philosophy as nothing would ever get developed. Some of us have to put a bit of faith in manufacturers otherwise nothing would ever come to market.
Zeb
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And if you do buy it make sure you get an unconditional money back guarentee
It comes with a 2 year warranty, as for not being worth a day's wages...well you'd spend it on a graphics card so why not a joystick, something you will probably use every day, something that has to be comfortable, do everything you need of it and more on top. Perhaps I'm lucky..my girlfriend encouraged me to put it on pre-order as she knows how much I enjoy flight sims so I won't be hiding any receipts :)
Do shop around, take a look at whats on offer but you won't find anything on the market that will compare to the features of the Cougar.
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Originally posted by Samm
Speaking for myself, no joystick is worth a days wages . Secondly I've never had a TM joystick that didn't crap out or that I didn't take back for a refund, so you see why I have little confidence in this one . $270 for a stick throttle combo ! Thats just insulting, and even if I did need it I would refuse to pay that price as a matter of principal .
My advice to anyone considering purchasing this is to shop around first and try out as many sticks as you can before paying that ridiculous price . And if you do buy it make sure you get an unconditional money back guarentee, or order through a merchant like compusa so that if you don't like it for any reason you can take it back withing 30 days for a full refund .
Just watching my fellow flightsimers sixes, looks like someone is trying to make suckers out of us .
I agree. To you it is probably not worth spending much on a joystick. But to other people, thats how they wish to indulge. I am sure there will be many things you have bought of which I would have the same opinion. However, I don't think I would feel insulted by how much you paid for it as that is entirely up to you.
Your are correct, I don't need it. I don't *need* a television or that new mobile phone I bought last week etc. But there we are we all like to indulge now and then. It's all down to personal opinion. If there was no market they wouldn't have developed it.
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Samm,
It does not require any software to run it, ever.
If you chose to program it, that's great and it does require software to do the programming, but then you upload the file into the stick.
There is no software running in the background taking up proc cycles. High end ThrustMaster sticks have all done it this way since the F-16 FLCS.
I personally don't see why anybody'd do it any other way.
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GO TO THE CON!!!!!!!
Who knows?! You might get lucky and WIN one at the Saturday banquit!
LLB OUT!!!!!!!
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Revvin, the freedom of speech is still in power, I believe. I will whine about TM pots wherever I can, because I have a right to. My reason is sitting on my desk and it spikes as mad. It is called F22 with digital upgrade, btw.
Pardon me for not sharing your euphoria on an unseen product. Sorry for not cheerleading it either. Right now I am preoccupied in finding another set of replacement pots for my TM stick.
TM is using pots AGAIN to make the production cheaper. And we all know how pots do after a year or two.
Resolution has nothing to do with reliability.
Every pot, no matter how expensive or high-precision, wears down. The one in Quickshot, the one in Dexxa, the one in Cougar. After that you are left on your own usually, trying to findreplacement pots, only because the manufacturer was reducing production costs. I suspect this is the very same reason why MS has went he pot way either.
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Maybe I'm just out of step with the times, but I think $275+ for a joystick is a massive RIP OFF.
I'd feel like a total sucker, like a complete retard, like a fool, if I paid even 1/10 that much for a joystick.
Everybody has different needs, I guess.
J_A_B
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J_A_B,
How much did your video card cost?
How about your car? Could you have gotten one for cheaper?
If you have the money to spare, and it is something you want and will get use out of, why not get what you want?
If it was the same thing for 3-4 times the money, then you'd be right. But its not.
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Maybe I'm just out of step with the times, but I think $275+ for a joystick is a massive RIP OFF.
The TM FLCS and the TQS listed for $300 each when they first came out. They took an electrician to wire them, and a computer programmer to program. I would say the $275 is a steal, and I will be one of the idiots who will own one :) Five years of hard use has taken it's toll on my old gear and it is time for a replacement.
You think this is crazy, I hear some people have payed more per year to play the same game!
Gunner
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"If you have the money to spare, and it is something you want and will get use out of, why not get what you want? "
I agree 100%. Like I said, everyone has their own needs :)
For ME, I couldn't rationalize that kind of purchase. Just like I can't rationalize spending more than $100 for a videocard (my own is a VooDoo 3 2000 that was something like $80 when I bought it several years ago).
J_A_B
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Originally posted by J_A_B
that was something like $80 when I bought it several years ago
With inflation, wouldn't the equivalent of something that cost $80 several years ago now be over $100? :p
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I don't pay 500% markup for a vid card, or a car . TM has never made a good stick before, why are you guys betting that this one would be so different ? By paying their outragous price you are only hurting the community, if TM shows the controller market that their target customer is willing to pay $250 for a controller set what do you think that is going is to do ? . It has nothing to do with being able to afford it or not, like a dumb kid that tips a stripper way too much, pretty soon all the bunnys will be expecting it as the norm .
Like I said, buy it from someone who offers a full refund if your not satisfied for any reason, so that the first time it ever spikes or drifts (it will) you can get your $250 back .
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I wouldnt pay 270 for a vid card either.. heh heh. Im cheap.
I have an ATI Radeon 64 SDR that i paid 119.00 for and it gets me 50 fps avg. That works fine for me
I paid 175.00 for my Mobo and Chip Combined. AMD Duron 900 .
Cheap ram too 28.95 for 128 meg. but hey..it works. I applaud your wanting to support TM. I have the Afterburner like i stated before. Nice stick no problems.. 55 bucks.. im sure someone made a profit. The thing i was getting at is i dont see how the Cougar Hotas can be 200 dollars more than the Afterburner Hotas. 100 yes, but IMO 200 more is just not realistic
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Also i worry about any product that seems over advertised before it is released. Ive never seen another HOTAS that had this much hype before it was released. Pre-order.. sheesh.. doesnt that make the hairs on your neck stand up? Something funny goin on.
To all you who do pay the price to get a Cougar...I dont expect you will admit that the stick is ordinary after you try it.. so good luck.
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Originally posted by Samm
TM has never made a good stick before, why are you guys betting that this one would be so different ?
I disagree. My several year old F-22/TQS/RCS combo works like a champ. I have an identical set in storage that used to be in my office. The home set is digital, the office set is not.
The only TM stick I had troubles with was my old FCS Pro, which had issues with the pots. That was over ten years ago however. Not all pots are created equal BTW...
At my last job, I was the POC between our team and the various hardware companies. In fact, I was flown out to Microsoft at their expense to provide developer feedback on a proposed game hardware item (sorry can't say what). I got all the latest toys, from all the companies...TM, Microsoft, Logitech, Satiek, and others. Five years worth of sticks...I had shelves full of them, literally.
I tested them all, and always came back to my TM setup.
-Smut
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I will whine about TM pots wherever I can, because I have a right to
And you also have the right to make a right prat of yourself which you've used to some success over on the other msg boards :rolleyes: LOL you just gotta love the whole freedom of speech declaration...the last defense of a compulsive whining flamer. You did'nt want to listen to the guys who have first hand knowledge of the Cougar, you don't want to listen the pots are of a better quality than the last ones, you don't want to listen that they've been using these pots for over a year with no spiking, you don't wantto listen to the fact that the Cougar software can filter inputs from the stick as part of its programmability you just want to whine and squeak...well I won't waste anymore time so go cry me a river.
Samm> What proof have you of a 500% markup? do you have access to figures? how do you know how much TM are making on this stick? As for hurting the community by paying such prices LOL! If you really believe that then I'm sorry you are delusional. TM are taking a big risk by making this stick, to create a high end controller when the sim market is hardly in a healthy state. This might just breathe some life into the market. Take a look at what options you have..the Saitek range are cheap and they look and feel the same way. The Microsoft range look like childs toys and feel like them, god knows why I bought a MS FF2 that really was one of my poorer decisions. That leaves CH who have not changed much about their sticks for years, smae levels of programmability, the same look and feel the only thing to change is a USB interface. This might just spark the competition into life and you'll be damn sure they will be watching how TM fare with this new stick before they try anything as bold. As for never producing a quality stick...where have you been? the PFCS/WCSII and F16 FLCS/TQS setups are both top of my best ever joysticks list.
I don't know where you guys have seen adverts, all I've seen are the odd E3 mention and then the Cougar World site went live about a month ago, hardly on par with something like the hype over the Xbox.
I don't know why you guys feel the need to get so bent out of shape, don't like it? don't buy it its simple but if you feel the need to rain on someone else's parade then perhaps there is something missing in your life.
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I post to a web board as part of my job, and let me tell you, people can be so unreasonable.
Just cause you have a problem does not mean everyone does, but people always make that assumption
Samm What TM products have you owned?
The F16 FLCS was awesome, and I would still be using it if I hadn't broken the keyboard connector (my fault not the sticks)
The F22 is one of the best if not the best joystick out there, CH stuff looks goofy and you can blow on them and move the handle. MS stuff? Not a chance! Saitek? cheesy feel and looks like it came right out of a tie fighter!
It all comes down to this, you don't like it, fine, you had a bad experience in the past with a TM stick, so sorry, don't spend the money on another one, but do not think cause you had a bad time with them that they suck or all there products do, Maybe it was just you.
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Originally posted by Smut
I disagree. My several year old F-22/TQS/RCS combo works like a champ. I have an identical set in storage that used to be in my office. The home set is digital, the office set is not.
The only TM stick I had troubles with was my old FCS Pro, which had issues with the pots. That was over ten years ago however. Not all pots are created equal BTW...
At my last job, I was the POC between our team and the various hardware companies. In fact, I was flown out to Microsoft at their expense to provide developer feedback on a proposed game hardware item (sorry can't say what). I got all the latest toys, from all the companies...TM, Microsoft, Logitech, Satiek, and others. Five years worth of sticks...I had shelves full of them, literally.
I tested them all, and always came back to my TM setup.
-Smut
Well said smut.
AKDejaVu
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The TM stuff I had spiked like a suncom, but cost much more that's why I took it back . Except the pedals like I said, I still use them . If you can tolerate spiking and drifting, turning up deadbands and recalibrating fine, I can't and don't have to .
A lot of you keep coming back to look and feel, "it's made out of metal" etc. I could give a rats bellybutton about that. If it spikes or drifts at all it's going back . Thats my pov .
If it was the only durable, progammable, hotas stick that didn't spike or drift (giving it the benefit of the doubt), then I would consider shelling out $250 . But it's not .
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Samm
Your assuming cause you had a bad experience that everything they produce sucks, its not the case.
my 5 year old F22 with 4 year old pots never spikes. nor do my 6 your old TM rudder pedals
I can understand not wanting to spend the money if you had problems but they where your problems not everyone's, Every company has a lemon every once in a while TM fixed the only problem I had very fast.
I can't say the same about ford, but I don't go bashing them saying everything they made or make or ever will make is crap. :)
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Originally posted by GtoRA2
I can't say the same about ford, but I don't go bashing them saying everything they made or make or ever will make is crap. :)
Are you insinuating that this is what I'm doing ? I have been using TM pedals for 3 years, they are the best available. They have allways spiked, but they are pedals so it doesn't matter . I'm advising people in hopes that they don't get ripped off, i.e. make sure you can get your money back if you don't like it . And as for what I prefer to spend my money on . I would get rid of my tv and mobile phone before my js . Would that not truely suck to have paid $270 for a stick only to find out that it is unremarkable and you can not get your money back ? My personal experience with almost every js I've ever owned has been bad, and I'm sorry but I'm not going to omit the fact that two were TM . I like to think that I am part of an online community that looks out for eachother better than any other online game community .
Don't be suckers .
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270$ is not the issue for me. Although it might, it is a monthly salary in this part of the world :(.
But as Cougar has pots, I'll keep my salary.
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Originally posted by Samm
I'm advising people in hopes that they don't get ripped off, i.e. make sure you can get your money back if you don't like it . And as for what I prefer to spend my money on . I like to think that I am part of an online community that looks out for each other better than any other online game community .
Don't be suckers .
I don't think anyone is going to get suckered. For a start the first batch of Cougars that are destined for various parts are already spoken for with pre-orders. In fact the pre-orders have overtaken the availabilty which is why distribution has been delayed a few weeks. If the stick is the lemon you are expecting, then believe me the boards will be overflowing with comments to that effect. I would expect that anyone who spends that kind of money on a piece of equipment like that will already be enough of a flight sim enthusiast to research the thing as deeply as I have.
I have had one TM setup before, many years ago. I disliked it for various reasons, the main one being quality. That doesn't mean that this product will be bad. Give them a break!
Zeb
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Originally posted by Zeb
I don't think anyone is going to get suckered.
I hope you're right. That doesn't mean that this product will be bad. Give them a break!
Zeb [/B]
I hope you're not trying to imply that I have been saying that this product WILL be bad, because I haven't .
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Originally posted by Zeb
I would expect that anyone who spends that kind of money on a piece of equipment like that will already be enough of a flight sim enthusiast to research the thing as deeply as I have.
What better way to research it than taking it home and trying it for a few days on your system, then if you don't like it take it back and get your money back . Provided you bought it at a place were you can take it back for a FULL REFUND for ANY REASON .
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Originally posted by Samm
What better way to research it than taking it home and trying it for a few days on your system, then if you don't like it take it back and get your money back . Provided you bought it at a place were you can take it back for a FULL REFUND for ANY REASON .
Not many places here in the UK will take a product back just because you don't get on with it unfortunately. There are exceptions, but not many. One of our biggest PC equipment suppliers is PC World. They are the worlds worst for taking stuff back, even when it's faulty. I would expect some of the reputable specialist dealers over here like RC SImulations will come to some arrangement.
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Originally posted by Samm
I hope you're not trying to imply that I have been saying that this product WILL be bad, because I haven't .
I was getting the impression that you had doubts about the quality of any joystick made by TM. Until now I may have agreed with you.
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Sorry to hear that Zeb :(
Based on my experiences with TM I do have my doubts .
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6 yr old TM stick/pedals.. still woikin'
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Well I pre-ordered on the basis of past experience with TM gear (particularly HOTAS products) and the very positive experience that I have had with them. I am spending my $249+shipping for that reason only. I have a F-16 FLCS, TQS and RCS that I bought second hand two years ago now. I did have an F-16 FLCS, F-22 Pro and TQS but I sold them to another guy when I moved from back to Alabama in 1998 and I had the FLCS since it was first on the market.
The one I use now has been hosed twice both due to MS and I now have it fixed under WinXP. The other time was when I was beta testing DX8 beta and that was resolved inside of a week also. Plus I had the place where the pot in the TQS sat break a few weeks ago. I fixed that with some superglue and a screwdriver.
As for Potentiometers (pots) I have never had an issue with them and have used the digital upgrade chips for the F-22 in the past. I even really wanted to give it up and try the TM Afterburner HOTAS but the feeling was just crappy to me. It felt too much like a cheap CompUSA joystick that you can get for about $9. I have even used/tried to use CH gear and Saitek but they did not hold up at all under even moderate usage. Lastly I will never use a MS stick setup after I bought the first version of the Force Feedback one after I used the first Saitek I broke inside of a month.
So after years of quality Thrustmaster flight sim gear I will be buying new once again. So if anyone wants to buy a used F-16 FLCS, TQS I will entertain offers for them. :D
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I gave my old PFCS/WCSII combo to a friend some years back, I'd already had it 5 years when I upgraded to an F16 FLCS/TQS combo so the set I gave my friend has to be about 10 years old now and it still works, no spiking, no mechanical problems. My F16 FLCS/TQS lasted for over 5 years so for me (and I might add many others) have no problem with TM's reliability or quality.
How many sticks have you had last 10 years constant use? how many joystick manufacturers would send out spare parts like TM did for me when I broke a hat switch? For every bad tale I'd say there were many more good ones about TM products.
Most of the Cougar pre-orders appear to be from happy TM customers and TM have almost sold their first production run in pre-orders and that for me speaks volumes for the confidence in TM's ability to turn out yet another great HOTAS. How many other sticks upon release have seen such a demand with little advertising?
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I had all TM stuff, within the first 6 months I had a pile of unusable crap! rebought more sticks and shortly the pile of crap got bigger. I bought CH products, which lasted my whole tour of AW. One day I saw Siatek throttle and stick, WOW ( yes Tie-fighter looking) But i liked it...... Until i used it ( I think i gave it away). Well, dusted off the CH stuff ( analog), cleaned the pods and they still working fine after 7 years.
As someone stated, I also couldn't give a rats bellybutton if it's titanium plated, as long as they work, sofar TM doesn't have a good track record with me.
NUTTZ
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Samm;
One of my first joysticks was a TM F-16 FLCS. I then went on to purchase the TQS (one of the first made - it has a trackball) and some the elite rudder peddles.
This joystick took me thru countless hours of play. I used it exclusively for about 10 years. As I recall, I replaced the pots after about 8 years.
Since then I have tried one brand of joystick after another and IMO nothing performed like the TM. I am currently using a $40 Logitech Wingman Extreme, because the $150 CH Products USB FighterStick that I bought a year ago spikes badly on the Y-axis.
What kind of joystick do you currently use?
Which kind would you receommend?
I seem to pick the duds.
Thanks in advance!
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MS pre pro, saitek x35 throttle, tm elite rudder pedals . A couple of years ago MS changed their sticks and although I haven't tried the new ones they do look cheaply built . I've never understood why people buy FF sticks, when I'm in the virtual air trying to do something that requires precision I wouldn't want my stick giving me sassback .