Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: VWE001 on March 20, 2002, 08:21:04 AM
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O.k. what's the friggin deal with assists? Either I come up on someone chasing a plane and I'm sure has a few rounds in him but no damage that I can see and I'll take off a wing or even blow 'em up on my first pass and get an "assist". Or even better I'll duel with someone and remove some critical part of their plane like a tail or wing and turn 'em into a giant leaf falling from the tree of life. Now it is silly to continue to fire and waist ammo because they are no longer in control of there plane, they are going down and the fight is over. Then out of no where some dweeb will tail the wrekage all the way to the deck, shootin at it as he goes and get the kill while I get the "assist". This tour alone I have over 100 assists with little or nothing to show for it. Hey during the Con, will HiTech roam the floor and give out little gold stars for each assist? :D
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I've gotten "assists" on planes that I've taken the wing off of right next the deck and I've wondered just how some of the kill credit logic works. Then I think, "What the heck, I imagine that I get kills for ones I don't deserve from the same logic. Probably it all balances out."
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The kill logic is very simple, he who puts the most lethality into a plane gets the kill.
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I know exactly how you feel VW...
"Now it is silly to continue to fire and waist ammo because they are no longer in control of there plane, they are going down and the fight is over. Then out of no where some dweeb will tail the wrekage all the way to the deck, shootin at it as he goes and get the kill while I get the "assist".
Few nights back I was chasing a F4U, scored some hits on his left wing, and blew the wing tip off and atleast an elevator. Plane was very uncontrollable, he was wobbling all over the place and steadily losing altitude. Good as dead right? So I pull back and look for another target when some guy swoops in and shoots up the F4U and blows him up and I get an assist. I mean there was no way this F4U was going to make it, he was flopping all over the place, stalling, couldnt even keep his wings level.
But I'm not bitter, it does balance out in the end because I've gotten kills on planes while others get the assist.
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Originally posted by hitech
The kill logic is very simple, he who puts the most lethality into a plane gets the kill.
With all due respect, the logic is fundamentally flawed. Why? Well, he ain't dead until he's dead. It's that simple.
Example: A Spitfire gets hit, escapes and heads for home. I spot him later on short final, zoom in, blow off his wing and the Spit crashes short of the runway. I get an assist. Yet, if I had arrived 30 seconds later, the guy lands safely and no one gets a kill. So, tell me, who provided the REAL lethality?
I believe that a shared kill system solves the problems. There must be a cut-off, so that everyone doesn't try to get "their licks" in to get a portion of the kill, such as when the aircraft is no longer flyable. As it stands now the fractional perks are meaningless when you have many hundreds in the bank.
My best,
Widewing
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lol.. try and code that.
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Originally posted by Wlfgng
lol.. try and code that.
in a crude way : assist for all :D
(I know it's nasty :))
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Take one o my kills and get over it...
SKurj
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Originally posted by hitech
The kill logic is very simple, he who puts the most lethality into a plane gets the kill.
ahhh, one of the true arts of becoming FDB material.....but we like to use beer instead. :D
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Assists should be rewarded something like .25 perks or something along that line. Right now, you get squat.
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how about the .50 caliber owerkill lethality on already dead planes HT :)
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>Assists should be rewarded something like .25 perks or
>something along that line. Right now, you get squat.
I think once agian, Rip has managed to stumble into the truth. ;)
In real war they at least got credited with partial kills.
Wab
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Assists should be rewarded something like .25 perks or something along that line. Right now, you get squat.
I believe that we do get fractional perks for assists. But, I don't care about that, having more perks than I'll ever use already.
I care about accuracy. For example, last evening Nath whacked my N1K2 while I was being swarmed by a crowd. I wanted some payback. So, I upped a SpitV and headed to the area where Nath, DMF (who got my Hurricane earlier after I killed a couple of 109s) and the rest of their group were working (south of A35). I located Nath playing tag with some Rooks in his P-38. I worked my way above and behind, and shot off his tail. I got an assist. :mad: Now, can anyone tell me what might constitute greater lethality than having half of your airplane blown off???:rolleyes: Gimme a break!
Anyway, I tracked down DMF and got him too, pinching on the merge. With DMF, that's about the only way to have him in front of you long enough to get a decent shot, and that was about 30 degrees off HO (got the film of both, btw). Man, breaking even is about the best I can do with these guys... Sheesh.
Anywho, enough BS, back to the point. I think that the question of lethality must be resolved to reflect that the person who causes the aircraft to become unflyable, gets the kill. Whether it was damaged prior to that is immaterial. If it could still wobble on home, then it's not dead and the guy/gal who finally knocks it down (becomes unflyable), should get the kill credit.
My regards,
Widewing
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I'm just wondering if there would be a way to place code in the game that would disable hits after a plane is no longer flyable.
I'm also getting tired of watching someone dive after a plane I just took the wing off of,spraying away as it spirals in hoping to "steal" a kill.
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Careful Wab, you and Rip are engaging in logical and linear thinking. ;)
This is Aces High remember??? Such rational thought could cost you your BBS privileges!!! LOL!! :D
AKEagle+
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Folks... define "no longer flyable". Think about how you would try to code that. Show me the logic. I'm not saying you can't do that, all I'm pointing out is that it's not as simple as it seems to make a better system that is reasonable to implement.
What we have now is simple and elegant, even if you don't always like the results. Regardless of what you would prefer to happen, if it's much more complex, a bunch of new code, and HTC's valuable resources to change it, you can see why the current system might be preferable. Now lets think about "credit to the guy that makes it unflyable". Lets say removing a wing or 3 or more flight surfaces is the rule you choose as "unflyable". Or killing an engine. So you attack an ME110 with your Spit 1 with it's pitiful .303's. You rake the enemy plane with fire, shooting off an ael and his rudder, and doing 95% of the damage required to break both wings, the rest of the flight surfaces, and the entire fuselage. Now I come blasting in with my Jug and with a quick burst, I put the icing on the cake and actually explode the plane. You did 95% of the damage required to explode it, but because I damaged him last, I get the kill. Now you have a system where everybody shoots at once, because the last bullet that hits "something critical" and destroys it, the fellow who fired that gets credit. Sorry, but that doesn't sound like a better solution to me. Now the fellow in the Spit 1 who worked his bellybutton off and spent 1/2 his ammo load doesn't get credit. On the flip side, the .303's would be great for being "the straw the broke the camel's back", so that might make the Spit 1 a kill-stealing machine.
No matter what system we use, it will be a compromise that will allow "kill stealing" in some form. Show me a system that doesn't, but I can't think of one. The current compromise is, IMO, the only reasonable way to do it I've seen thus far. Sure, there might be ways to improve it, but this is a simple problem that has been around a long time. I think HT has a pretty good handle on it. Has it been done better in any other online flight sim?
In addition, I laugh at the kill stealers. They are the dumb ones, because when the next bogie comes along they are on the deck and easy meat. Sure, you might only get an assist... then you get to watch as the enemy dives on the guy that stole it from you and laugh at his pitiful cries for help. Dive in on the guy attacking him, but make sure you don't kill him until he shoots down the killstealer! :D
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Originally posted by Lephturn
Folks... define "no longer flyable". Think about how you would try to code that. Show me the logic. I'm not saying you can't do that, all I'm pointing out is that it's not as simple as it seems to make a better system that is reasonable to implement.
What we have now is simple and elegant, even if you don't always like the results. Regardless of what you would prefer to happen, if it's much more complex, a bunch of new code, and HTC's valuable resources to change it, you can see why the current system might be preferable. Now lets think about "credit to the guy that makes it unflyable". Lets say removing a wing or 3 or more flight surfaces is the rule you choose as "unflyable". Or killing an engine. So you attack an ME110 with your Spit 1 with it's pitiful .303's. You rake the enemy plane with fire, shooting off an ael and his rudder, and doing 95% of the damage required to break both wings, the rest of the flight surfaces, and the entire fuselage. Now I come blasting in with my Jug and with a quick burst, I put the icing on the cake and actually explode the plane. You did 95% of the damage required to explode it, but because I damaged him last, I get the kill. Now you have a system where everybody shoots at once, because the last bullet that hits "something critical" and destroys it, the fellow who fired that gets credit. Sorry, but that doesn't sound like a better solution to me. Now the fellow in the Spit 1 who worked his bellybutton off and spent 1/2 his ammo load doesn't get credit. On the flip side, the .303's would be great for being "the straw the broke the camel's back", so that might make the Spit 1 a kill-stealing machine.
No matter what system we use, it will be a compromise that will allow "kill stealing" in some form. Show me a system that doesn't, but I can't think of one. The current compromise is, IMO, the only reasonable way to do it I've seen thus far. Sure, there might be ways to improve it, but this is a simple problem that has been around a long time. I think HT has a pretty good handle on it. Has it been done better in any other online flight sim?
In addition, I laugh at the kill stealers. They are the dumb ones, because when the next bogie comes along they are on the deck and easy meat. Sure, you might only get an assist... then you get to watch as the enemy dives on the guy that stole it from you and laugh at his pitiful cries for help. Dive in on the guy attacking him, but make sure you don't kill him until he shoots down the killstealer! :D
Here's my thoughts.
Simple solution: 0.5 kills to the Spitfire I, 0.5 kills to you. Everyone gets something. The loss of a wing or tail is sufficient to define "unflyable". All others get resolved by an evenly divided percentage. Obviously, blowing up is conclusive.
My regards,
Widewing
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C'mon lads, take some Valium or pop a Prozsac, or go see your therapist. Or maybe just grow up.
Sheesh!
You can't code a standard of conduct!
Let me repeat that! This is an shocker for some of you, but… YOU cannot code standards of conduct.
Man the MA is a Arcade first person Shoot'em up with a WWII airplane/gv theme. People are gonna steal your kills, and guess what??? You may actually steal someone elses' kill! You only know what goes on at your front end. The other guy may have actually been closer to the bogey than you on his FE.
The MA is gang-banging, HO's, deliberate rams, kill shooter, kill stealing, Laser-guided Buff bombing and furballing and a lot of other fun things (Eagles eyes glaze over as he starts to drool).
We could code a better perk system… but that is a dead horse. The 110 is gonna be very prevalent in the MA once people realize what a mean momma that puppy is. But it won't get perked because it ain't blue, it ain't American, it ain't a fat slow Corsair once it loses speed. And besides, it IS LW iron. :D
Once people see how deadly that 110 is for jabo, and HO's watch out lads, the arena is just gonna get meaner :D And I say let it, stop the whining, grow up, grow a pair, and lets dance! :)
AKEagle+
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Ah.. yet another concern that can simply be avoided by adjusting your flying/fighting style.
If you are going for the max kill/sortie.. you run the risk of allowing a somewhat crippled plane the opportunity to be stolen. To avoid that... damage it more. If its a matter of too many people being in one area... then I feel absolutely no pitty. You and you alone control the location of your aircraft. I guarantee you can find an area where things would be drastically different.
I flew the P-51B for a tour... and experienced nothing as severe as mentioned in the initial troll. I know I'm not that great of a pilot... so what could the difference have been?
Hmmmm.
AKDejaVu
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I think the scoring is fine as-is.
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I have no problem killing Nath and DMF, they usually tangle their props into my chute and i take em with me:)
NUTTZ
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Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6,
Squelched? have your squaddies do it...
Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6, Check 6,
Then when he's in trouble...NOTHING :D
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If I take the tailplane off the enemy aircraft I have done all the lethal damage needed. It should be a kill right then and there(the announcement can be delayed until it hits the ground or pilot bails) and NO MORE damage even considered into the equation.
The first damage inflicted that makes the aircraft unflyable should be all thats recorded and scored.
Engine damage, missing control surfaces, pilot wounds should not be considered unflyable.
ANyone else wants to shoot it fine, but no assist or credit is given.
Thats how it should work +)
but i can live with the current setup
SKurj
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Skurj,
Imagine that I spawn at a vulched field and someone inflicts "fatal damage" to my AC, I.E. wing or tail blown off. But in reality I can taxi around and spray lead all over. Or maybe even taxi over to the maproom and camp out for troops.
The best solution is for everyone to just get over it.
Sure, I get mad for about 5 seconds after I get an assist when I thought it should have been a kill. But I get a lot of freebies too.
Many times I have done a lot of damage to an enemy plane from my slow A6M or 109F, and they are getting away. Someone else finishes them off and I get the kill. Without their help, I would have gotten squat.
eskimo
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Life according to me:
Dont like assists? Fly a cannon armed plane.
Fly an mg armed plane? Don't just take parts off, blow your enemy up.
Don't want to do either? Then live with it and quit whining about assists.
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> hitech:: The kill logic is very simple, he who puts the most lethality into a plane gets the kill. <
This is the way it should be.
> ripsnort:: Assists should be rewarded something like .25 perks or something along that line. Right now, you get squat. <
While I couldn't care less about 'perk points', for those that do an 'assist' should count for partial 'perk points'
- IAmBNM
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Originally posted by NUTTZ
I have no problem killing Nath and DMF, they usually tangle their props into my chute and i take em with me:)
NUTTZ
Heh, got them both again tonight. ;) I must be livin' right. To be fair, Nath's P-38 was out of gas. However, he was still out-turning just about everyone deadstick! It was like watching the great Bob Hoover do his engines-off aerobatic display. Nath is a character. Despite having two dead engines, he's still trying to kill everything in sight. Give him an A for effort, at least. But, when his E was gone.. Well, I wasn't going to let him ditch. :p
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Widewing
Heh, got them both again tonight. ;)
The late 190 really helped. I didn't want to rev on a Zeke that was, by my view, 800 yards back. There was no way a Spit V was going to cut off enough angles against a reasonable Zeke pilot when reversing at that range. My plan was to extend to about 1.4k out and then rev back to you, but the incredibly aggressive 190 forced me to turn back. Not much I could do at that point... out of angles and out of speed from having to turn it. C'est la vie. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
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Originally posted by Blue Mako
Life according to me:
Dont like assists? Fly a cannon armed plane.
Fly an mg armed plane? Don't just take parts off, blow your enemy up.
Don't want to do either? Then live with it and quit whining about assists.
I fly cannon armed plane, YakU, and quite often hit what I fire at. But still get zillion of assists :)
But yes, this system works fine. Only thing which upset me sometime is when I spend some time to turn the table and get solution on some enemy, put his tail off, and here comes some crazy-all-guns-firing-newbie and steal it :)
Fariz
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We are wasting time and words; its not a matter of points, half kills, etc its only thatwe have in AH some professional Kill-stealers
Since someone pays 14,95 $ for the satisfaction of a K/D almost completely made by stolen Kills, there's nothing we can do.
:(
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Hey Fariz i bet u was a "all guns spraying newbie" too :-)
greets
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Originally posted by Dead Man Flying
The late 190 really helped. I didn't want to rev on a Zeke that was, by my view, 800 yards back. There was no way a Spit V was going to cut off enough angles against a reasonable Zeke pilot when reversing at that range. My plan was to extend to about 1.4k out and then rev back to you, but the incredibly aggressive 190 forced me to turn back. Not much I could do at that point... out of angles and out of speed from having to turn it. C'est la vie. :)
-- Todd/Leviathn
Yeah, I saw you turn back towards the field. I wasn't surprised to see you suddenly pull into that near-vertical turn, I've seen you pull that maneuver several times, and it works against everything but a Zeke. So, seeing you go vertical, naturally I went vertical too. But, once you pulled into the high turn, there wasn't much you could do but hope that I didn't see you, or miss the deflection shot if I did. Of course, I didn't know it was you at the time. However, since Nath had been there, I figured you weren't far away. ;)
That field was pure mayhem. I think we had four or five planes up, and there were at least a dozen enemy fighters. That I managed to even get airborne is testimony to the GVs protecting the field. I was eventually nibbled down to a flying wreck, although I managed to get another two. So, I bailed and upped another Zeke. Joined by Mathman, we managed to clear the field of Bish with the help of a few others, who's names I didn't get. Great fight. It's always a fun challange to meet you and Nath in the MA.
See you up there.
My best,
Widewing
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Originaly posted buy eskimo
Sure, I get mad for about 5 seconds after I get an assist when I thought it should have been a kill. But I get a lot of freebies too.
Many times I have done a lot of damage to an enemy plane from my slow A6M or 109F, and they are getting away. Someone else finishes them off and I get the kill. Without their help, I would have gotten squat. "
[/b]
Well said eskimo, exactaly the way i feal.
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This "feature" works both ways, sometimes you ping a guy one time and someone blows buy and waste him, and you get the kill.. Its not like someone stacked the deck against you, it should happen both ways an equal number of times, unless you fly a plane that has sissy guns then you may be the "victim" more times than not.
Being a dedicated jug driver i have to say this isnt a real common problem for me, theres normaly not much left to shoot at when im done ripping them apart with my 8 x 50's.. (it doesnt hurt to put a little extra icing on the cake either, if ya know what i mean :p )
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Forget score. Forget perks. You'll have more fun.
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Originally posted by Widewing
Heh, got them both again tonight. ;) I must be livin' right. To be fair, Nath's P-38 was out of gas. However, he was still out-turning just about everyone deadstick! It was like watching the great Bob Hoover do his engines-off aerobatic display. Nath is a character. Despite having two dead engines, he's still trying to kill everything in sight. Give him an A for effort, at least. But, when his E was gone.. Well, I wasn't going to let him ditch. :p
My regards,
Widewing
I saw Sabre get 4 kills deadstick!
He ran out of gas at about 15k, I think (it was a long time ago).
He was greatly outnumbered and fought as a glider all the way to the deck, killing 4 bandits on the way!
(I was on the phone with him at the time and was rushing to his aid.)
eskimo
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OK, here is a partial solution:
/.assist
This command would be used when you wish to trade your awarded kill for an assist when you feel that a countryman is more deserving of the kill. It could only be implemented after you are awarded a kill, and the kill would automatically be awarded to the pilot who inflicted the next greatest amount of damage to the enemy plane. If you were mistaken and the enemy received no damage from another plane, nothing happens. Your rational could be whatever you wish for passing on the credit of the kill.
Another command could be:
/.killcredit (callsign)
This would be used when you wish to pass credit on to a countryman who probably didn't actually get hits on the enemy plane, but for whatever reason you feel, greatly contributed to kill. I.E. distracts an Ostwind's fire while you kill him. Perhaps this command would award ˝ of the kill.
It would do nothing to prevent kill-stealing, but would still be a useful and realistic feature.
(Even a dweeb like me would use them.)
eskimo
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This aspect of AH is fine just the way it is.
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So far this camp I have over 50 assists, thats more than I have ever gotten in any camp in AH. I don't do anything differently than the other camps I've flown in. I get in close and shoot; if the nme turns away I keep going but, I know he's smok,ing. Another guy comes in and shoots him from farther away and he gets the kill. But then again, this camp I have dumped more than any other time in AH, and I have seen more warps than any other time in AH. For my money, where theres smoke there is fire; just have to look for it, instead of pooh pooing what some guy says may be a problem.
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I like it the way it is. There is NOTHING more annoying than wearing down A niki or whatever... slowly getting into a kill postion after pinging him good a couple and then some nimrod decides to "swoop" in for the kill.
xBAT
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...
eskimo