Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DingHao2 on June 24, 2001, 02:15:00 PM
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Does anyone have any tricks that they'd like to share concerning the 190 d-9 and 109 g-10?
I'd appreciate any help I can get, since im a LW fan and don't want to have to use allied planes to get kills.
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i am still learning the 109, it takes a loooong time, but the world's #1 ace, erich hartmann (who flew the 109) was once quoted as saying
"I was hired to shoot down enemy planes, not to play with them..."
I think that describes the 109 perfectly. if you are trying to dogfight in it - it won't be long til a better turner comes along. it is best to stay high & fast and attack when you have the advantage and preferably surprise. make your attack pass then set up another, but dont get dragged into a turning fight. if you are impatient , then the 109 ain't for you :)
i don't know much about the 190 but the best flyers in the game are the ones that use good wing tactics. the 190 is tough to live in by itself but it is a killer when a good pair are on you. the best i can do in it is dive into a furball and hope to get out the other side in time to set up a new attack. good luck!
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bail out when you see a P-38. Its item #1 in the LW manual ;)
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The G10 shouldn't be flown in a non agressive way - using the vertical it can get on the 6 of virtually all American fighters - and stay there. Their only defense would be a high speed dive, because the 109 locks up horribly at speed.
F4U's, F6F's and P-51's are usually quite surprised when they see a 109 being flown aggressively. With Spit's and Nikis, rope a dope works excellently :).
190 driving really depends on the plane, but generally, you'll want to have an altitude advantage - 190's don't climb well, they turn like crap, they have a high stall speed. Give it a little alt and the extremely good dive and roll rate will work wonders for ya.
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Santa gave u good advice on the G10, i will try to do the same for the D9.
1st the high dive speed and the good role rate can get u outta trouble real quick, few planes can follow u if u dive to safety.
But i think u wanna know how to Kill with it and not how to run :)
For the D9 its important to have speed u can work with (also alt advantage is very good), i consider 250 mph IAS the absolute minimun at the beginning of and engagement but the more u have the better (general rule try to fly at 320-350 mph IAS).
Use vertikal movements with low Gs (2-4) to maintain ur E, try to stay above ur opponent. Never follow a better turning plane (most planes turn better than FW190 btw) through a high G brake turn, go vertikal roll ur lift vector on him and go in again. Or use a high-yo-yo to stay on his six.
Be patient till nme burns his E and than get in for the kill.
On rare occasions, u can turn with nme planes (relating to ur relative speeds and E) to kill them, a rule with the 190 is to use lag persuit if u follow someone through a turn, dont try to lead him, it only will increase G load and bleed ur E as if u have flown into a massive wall.
Also it is always better to be near a couple of friends, cause if someone is on ur six, the best way to fend him off is a friend.
Additionally in multiplane fights it is more like that u are able to sneak in bedhind and nme and kill him while u can keep ur E up.
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The 109 and the Dora are very, very hard to fly.
If you can take off and not use combat trim without crashing, start a squad and appoint yourself a long important historic title.
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And adding to what Creamo said, the most commonly known 190 manuever is known as the "LimpWristed Shuffle". It incorporates a series of flopping around the sky like a fish out of water by limply shifting your wrist back 'n forth.
(http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/contrib/blackeye/arcadefreak.gif)
I've only seen this manuever used in action by the Knights (aka LuftWaffle land), exact details as to how to effectively warp about the sky are still as of yet, unknown!
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Originally posted by SWulfe:
And adding to what Creamo said, the most commonly known 190 manuever is known as the "LimpWristed Shuffle". It incorporates a series of flopping around the sky like a fish out of water by limply shifting your wrist back 'n forth.
(http://www.contrabandent.com/pez/contrib/blackeye/arcadefreak.gif)
I've only seen this manuever used in action by the Knights (aka LuftWaffle land), exact details as to how to effectively warp about the sky are still as of yet, unknown!
Heh...good one Wulfe...I assumed that the guy as Alt-Tabbed out surfing porn...and was jerking on the "wrong" stick :)
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From the point of view of a beginner, the Messerschmidt 109 G-10 surprisingly turns better than I thought it could. And since the situations are almost alwyas multiple engagements at low altitude(furballs in short :D), arriving at the stage with just a bit more of alt is usually enough to depress a lot of people :)
I flew the G-10 as a defense plane most of the times this tour, against carrier based strikers hoarding up the shore(looooook out! The Mongol-Bish have landed... aaargh~ :) ), and found out a single G-10 could annoy enuff guys to buy time for your friends to get up and establish enough defensive CAP.
The ammo loadout isn't exactly impressive, 150 rounds of 20mms are usually straining(especially, compared to 150 Hispano rounds equipped on the Seafire, or more of those on the gruesome F4U-1C). And so naturally, I think of pressing down on the trigger when I am under 150ft. range from the target.
Strain the G-10 a little, dive it down to about 380~400 mph and approach the target from 6 o'clock belly low and stay there until range and almost always I've had good results. (I've found out people rarely give out 'check6' alarms to there m8s as much as I do :) )
If the guy discovers you, he either jumps up (dead) , breaks a bit(also dead), breaks hard(lives) or does a split-S(lives).
Mostly I've faced Corsairs(like I said, defense situations mostly) at low alt and since Corsair pilots usually give a fit about losing speed, they don't turn that hard. A gentle lag pursuit, or a gentle high yo-yo almost always brings the Corsair back in target and range and you can kill him. Or if the Corsair finds out you are following him agressively(instead of rocket to the sky as he imagined, and as many 109 pilots would do)and shrieks as he breaks harder, pull off with grace and smile knowing with a break like that, the Corsair becomes easy prey to friendly fighters nearby.
Though a chase like this deprives the G-10 like 30~60 mph in speed, I found out that I still can get away from other planes after I shot my target down, since G-10 is a VERY fast plane. So I think it performs in a furball situation better than what people would have imagined(u know, 109's a boring plane.. 109 needs 18k+ alt, 109 won't stay around in furballs etc etc..).
The biggest trouble I've met with the G-10 was that the fuel burns up like ice cream in the middle of Sahara..
Do what StSanta said.. drive it mean and aggresive :)
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First of all, they are two altogether different aircraft, at least in the early models.
the 109 e and F models were much more maneuverable then the later g models. As a matter of fact, a great number of 109 pilots were not entirely happy with the G Model. It required high power setting always to fly, and it was a real chore to fly it ( according to those who flew it) Most 109 pilots wished they could have the f model back.The 109 climbed well, all models, and turned well up into the g6 model. The G6 and G10 weren't as maneuverable, turning radius suffered, but still climbed well, and their speed was increased over the F model. It is also worthy to note that a great many fatalities and injuries occured while trying to land or takeoff in the 109. I read the percentage of aircraft lost (109) on landings and take offs, I forgot it, but it was unusually high.
The 190
Was developed by Kurt Tank to use a radial engine. The availability of the DBs'were short due to the fact that they were used both in fighters and bombers, thus the focke wulf was born. According to the test pilot, whose interview is in the book by Alfred Price was a real joy to fly. Light on the controls and responsive. The trim was set on the ground, and left that way permanently because the craft flew beautifully without adjustment while flying once it was set...at any power level. It was faster then the the e and f model 109s, top speed being 409 mph, that by the way was the top speed for all A models at max performance altitude. By the way, the spitIX also listed 409mph as it's top speed. The 190 carried more of a punch in armament, more cannons up to 4 in some of the A models, and even carried 30mm in pairs in the A8, 30mm were also available on the G-10 model,it fired through the hub, whereas the 30mm on the a8 were wing mounted. The g-10 model was faster then the A model 190s', top speed listed on G-10 was I believe 435mph. The G-10 and fW190s' were not dogfighters, they were basically attack craft using their speed and firepower to down their opponent. Turnfighting in those craft were a no no :D The 109 performed better at 21K or above then the A model 190s'.
Overall durability would go to the 190 A models, with the d model and g models being about equal in suffering engine damage, but damage to controls such as elevators rudders etc.was more difficult to do in the D model since it used steel rods in place of cables, and no hydraulics to damage.
Best thing to do is try them...you'll definately notice the difference. The g10 requires constant attention, and the 190 doesn't. The G10 climbs the best in the game imho, whereas the fw190 rate of climb is moderate at best. Each has pluses and minuses. Both have something to offer! :eek:
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Hajo ]
[ 06-25-2001: Message edited by: Hajo ]
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Have no much time, sorry. But the most important tip for 190A5/A8/F8 (the slower variants) is to have no holes at all in your SA. And use this SA to play a chess game instead a flight sim. The most important factor is where you place your "rook" before the real attack or defense. These planes do not forgive even minor mistakes.
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Ding,
I think there was some good advice there ,even Creamo :)
Like was said before, in the 109 use the vertical as much as possible to take advantage of its high climb rate but be careful of other airplanes that can zoom climb (P47 for one). Attack airplanes from the low 6 or follow them up for the kill. Be VERY careful in a high speed dive as it locks up terribly so diving from a USAF plane is not a good idea as most have good high speed handling. Get close for the kill cause the ammo loadout is poor.
In the FW190 the best advice is to keep your speed up and do Boom and Zoom tactics. Try to catch them by surprise if possible by your great diving speed (you can close gaps quickly). Be sure to extend and climb again to altitude. The D9 is especially fast so use that to your advantage but keep your 'e' up at ALL times. It has a great roll rate so use "flick" rolls and THEN pull thru to change directions quickly. Many times a plane with a better roll rate can out turn a better turning airplane. Use your rudder to make the roll even quicker.
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So no one found it even slightly ironic that a guy that wants to fly LW has a name like Ding Hao?
USAAF allusion for the history impaired :)
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I typed this up over a year ago. It mostly still applies today...
http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/G10frame.htm (http://www.cybrtyme.com/personal/hblair/G10frame.htm)
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LMAO Creamo.. Right on.
But let me expound a bit... from a purely allied/opportunists point of view, not one single stinking LW plane is in this sim that can whup a SMART Pony driver. Which is why I always die inna pony. On the other hand; I enjoy nothing more than a good 190 or 109 vs P51 fight, any alt; any situation, any time. :)
190's are mystical... some turn, others roll and twitch, some go like holy hell, some climb better than others... a bewildering array of 190's are available.. but the most competent and the one most likely to give a P51 fits is the Dora.
Likewize the ugliest airplanes ever made... the 109's. Some of these can turn rather well; some climb like a fediddlein elevator, all of 'em have an interesting array of armaments available. None of 'em can dive, but one shines as the best all around killer of uncautious and unwary allied pilots ever built, and in careful competent hands it will crush an unwary pony drivers hopes fer a easy kill... the Gustav... aka the G10.
No aircraft in this sim can put me defensive and keep me there faster than a high G10... and nothin makes me happier than killin one.
It takes a LONG time to get good with a G10 or a 190.. longer still to become proficient. Less in demand are pilot skills... most demanding are SA skills and the ability to read the opponents E state. Combine ACM skill with flawless SA/energy reads inna G10 or a Dora with a competent wingman behind him and woe betide it's opponents.
Vis a vis, stuff yer average 1944 era German 18 year old with 100 flying hours inna g10 or dora cockpit and you have allied fried krautsickles. The allied pilots wern't much more skilled... but they did have a better plane, more forgiving of the sins of the pilot. Historicly speaking; of course.
:D
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Certainly the new allied especially US guys were better trained in late 1944 than the German new guys, the "Dreitageflieger".....
Excellent summation of the 109 vs 51 fights Hangtime, however you got one vital issue of FACT incorrect.
The 109 is the most beutiful plane ever made, especially the G6, while the P51 is in fact the ugliest. :)
Happy to correct your error!
BTW: Merlin Spits are very very ugly too.
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Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
Excellent summation of the 109 vs 51 fights Hangtime, however you got one vital issue of FACT incorrect.
The 109 is the most beutiful plane ever made.
:D ditto
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Likewize the ugliest airplanes ever made... the 109's.
Just for that, I'm gonna clog this thread with beauty. :)
(http://www.bf109.com/gallery/favourites/gall03favelg.jpg)
(http://www.bf109.com/gallery/favourites/gall04favemed.jpg)
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She ain't pretty no more!
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LOL.. you can't even begin to compare that ugly wart and protuberence covered reich-hammered sloppily cobbeled together collection of ill-fitting compnents with an inverted and ventilated cat litter box canopy called a "One-Oh-crapto-this thing's killed the last Nine that tried to fly it" piece of dung to this...
(http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/images/large/phil007.jpg)
Sheesh. I'm reminded of Steve Martin in "The Jerk" being instructed on the diffrence between "Shit and Shinola" Hehehhehheee..
109's "beautiful". Sheesh. I saw a 'beautiful' grabage truck in NYC the other day... fly's like a 109 too... LOL
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it's the mystic and hypnotic spiralschnauze hang- mustang has nothin on the swirly nose :)
[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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double
[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: mrfish ]
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As for FW190 tactics, try prayer, here's the one I use:
Psalm of Milenko
Kurt Tank is my shepherd, I shall not want; he maketh me a FW 190A8 to JABO down in green pastures.
He leadth me beside still waters; he restoreth my K/D ratio.
He leadth me in paths of BOOM-n-ZOOM for his name's sake.
Yea, verily though I fly through the valley of the shadow of death, I shall fear no evil; for thou MK108 30mm art with me, thy BMW 801d and thy MG 151's, they comfort me.
Thou preparest a VULCHFEST™ before me in the presence of mine enemies.
Thou anointest my head with oil, yet my BMW 801d runneth still.
Surely, DWEEDFIRES™, NIKIs and RUNSTANGS™, shall follow me all the days of my life; and I shall dwell in the house of the WURGER forever!
ALSO
Book of Revolutions
Chapter 16, verse 10;
And the fifth WURGER poured out his MG 151 upon the seat of the RUNSTANG™; and his cockpit was full of darkness, and the RUNSTANGS™ gnawed thier tongues for pain.
And blasphemed the FW190A8.
And repented not thier deeds.
Old post I made in June of 2000, but felt it needed added here :D
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n'ermind ;)
-SW
[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: SWulfe ]
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Too late SW, I saw ur post.......studmuffin!
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Hehehehehe
Milenko... the great bellybutton assassin.
;)
-SW
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Something must be wrong with my browser....I cant see the "beautiful pictures" that Hblair is trying to post. All I see is pics of flying toejam.
Please let me know when you post those "beautiful" pics.
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Sling, remove the picture of your momma doing a cannonball at the YMCA from your monitor. Scroll up, look at the 109's in flight.
Thanks!
:D
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LOL Sling!! I wrecked my boss's desk, spewing coffee, choking and laughin so hard it hurt.
'..all I see are pic's of flyin toejam...'
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LMAO Hangtime!! You are soooooooo right :D
The only reason these loosewaffle pilots like the looks of their airplanes is cause they're comparing them to their girlfriends :)
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hblair
some wouldn't know a mean machine if it flew up and bit them in the arse :)
they'll learn on 7/14
Eagler
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
[QB]LOL.. you can't even begin to compare that ugly wart and protuberence covered reich-hammered sloppily cobbeled together collection of ill-fitting compnents with an inverted and ventilated cat litter box canopy called a "One-Oh-crapto-this thing's killed the last Nine that tried to fly it" piece of dung to this...
Hangtime I'm STILL laughing my bellybutton off :D
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Hangtime, I'd give ya that you're right that if given equally skilled pilots, the pony should win a 1v1 engagement, especially if the altitude is above 5k.
G10 vs P-51; the 109 should win, with the advantage being smaller at altitude. Once a 109 gets on the tail of a P51 at say 5k, it is very hard for the 51 driver to shake him off - he might try roducing an overshoot, but the 109 driver can simply chop throttle, do a lag pursuit and rely on the superior accelration of the 109 to catch up if he falls behind too much.
I'm foolish enough to turn with ponies, even loop fight them in my 190. I succeed against less skilled pilots, but against Hangtime or any other proficient pilot, i get my butt spanked. It wasn't fun to experience that my FW wasn't unbeatable :)
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Wait a minute HB....my momma does a mean cannonball, but nobody compares to Fatty's mom's cannonballing skillz. :)
And as to the pics....I still only see flying turds up there in yer posts. When you get some real planes in there, lemme know ok? Thanks.