Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Kratzer on March 21, 2002, 05:25:08 PM
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Anyone see this?
The link at the bottom of this article has a better description of the event.
http://www.newschannel2000.com/orl/news/crimeandjustice/stories/crimeandjustice-131534120020321-080350.html
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I find it hard to celebrate in the death of someone... even in this situation.
I commend the dad for what he did. I firmly believe he did the right thing.
I'm amazed by other aspects of the story. It seems there was no desire to even investigate pressing charges against the father. One of the robbers was an employee of the Blockbuster being robbed. The DA had the balls to press murder charges against the other robber (robbery resulting in a death... I learned all about it in 21 jump street).
AKDejaVu
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It's definitely nothing to celebrate, but maybe it will give other boneheads some pause to think about it before committing a crime. (It won't of course, but oh well)
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Two words: Bernard Goetz
Two more words: Civil Action
Two more words: Wrongful death
Last two: Garnish Wages
thank you for your time.
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WTG Dad! And a .45 too... wonder if it's a 1911-A1 or 1991-A1 :D
Wrongful death? For what? The guys walk in brandishing a weapon and threating people.
From one of those articles: "Officials believe Shockey had a permit to carry the weapon and said the shooting was justified."
There was no wrongful death here. The shooting was a deliberate action in response to an actual threat. Take into a civil court and the official statement from the cops that it was a justified shooting blows the whole case from the start.
Now.. if dad were charged with manslaughter or murder2 or something like that, then yeah, wrongful death could come into play. Or if dad had tagged any innocent bystanders (which would probably have brought charges against him anyway).
The loss of/taking of a life isn't trivial, but I'm glad dad had the gumption to do what he did. Hopefully he'll have the wherewithall to carry the burden he just shouldered.
I'm curious to see what the anti-gun media is going to do with this one. For all anyone knows dad may have saved several lives.
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Good shot. Too bad he didn't finish off the other salamander.
Wab
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This is the best argument EVER for handgun control. One young man is dead, another will have his life altered forever due to the convoluted Florida justice system, and a 50 year old cracker from Florida will be hailed as a hero for shooting two people, one of them unarmed, with his .45.
Welp, git on up thar, yew little doggies of Southern justice. I guess yew skooled dem lousy nig...er...er...dem lousy Negros what Southern Justice is all about. Dance around on this post, hi-five each other and somehow feel empowered because some amazinhunk offed two punks armed with ONE rifle. I hope the dumb bellybutton cracker loses his mobile home AND his gun in civil court.
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Good shot. Too bad he didn't finish off the other salamander.
i agree
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
This is the best argument EVER for handgun control. One young man is dead, another will have his life altered forever due to the convoluted Florida justice system, and a 50 year old cracker from Florida will be hailed as a hero for shooting two people, one of them unarmed, with his .45.
Welp, git on up thar, yew little doggies of Southern justice. I guess yew skooled dem lousy nig...er...er...dem lousy Negros what Southern Justice is all about. Dance around on this post, hi-five each other and somehow feel empowered because some amazinhunk offed two punks armed with ONE rifle. I hope the dumb bellybutton cracker loses his mobile home AND his gun in civil court.
Of course if the guy had been unarmed and the thugs had killed him I guess it would just be a case of "wrong place, wrong time? " :rolleyes: I'm sorry, but if you're willing to use a firearm to commit a crime, you had better be prepared to be met with equal force. If I have to choose between mine and my son's life and some scum sucking maggot trying to rip off a freakin video store, I just pray that I have enough restraint to not empty the magazine.
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One less POS.
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femwolf, maybe you should explain the virtues of "handgun control" to the armed criminals, i'm sure you could convince them to give up their guns.
Fla law:
use a gun in a crime=10yrs
shoot the gun "=20yrs
if you hit someone when you shoot=25 to life (perk point, you could get death)
why do some people want to disarm honest law-abiding people and call criminals "victims"?
one of the "inalienable rights" refered to in the constitution is the right to self defense.
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Originally posted by john9001
femwolf, maybe you should explain the virtues of "handgun control" to the armed criminals, i'm sure you could convince them to give up their guns.
Or better yet... he can explain the virtues of having a discussion without namecalling in the very first sentence. :rolleyes:
And for that matter... self defense isn't mentioned in the Bill of Rights.
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Seriously..LOL!
"One young man is dead"...reminds me of the British 18 year old who was recently shot and killed by a British Pensioner with his shotgun..the paper quoted him as "a lovable rogue". This guy had over 35 convictions at 18, and several involving violence against police officers, yet the old guy gets into a scrap with him AND another robber in HIS diddlying house, a fight for his life, and is now being charged with murder. What idiocy.
If this father had put two into the back of the wounded guy's head when he was down even, who could blame him. The guy went for the first guy's gun. One last piece of crap criminal on the streets. It seems he followed the rules of engagement for CCW, and didn't go that far, but what sane person could blame him if he had.
The funny thing is, if a uniformed police officer with no relations inside the store had done exactly the same thing, we wouldn't even be talking about it, and it MAY have made page 10 news. The "issue" is average joe's rights to defend himself and others just like the cops.
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Read the article. These perps had robbed the same store without loss of life in the past and this cracker sets up an ambush in order to kill them should they try again. He kills them, Jeb Bush says "cool, just quit filming my daughters having sex and doing drugs in public, and YES I'm glad we rigged the presidential election and allowed my retarded brother to be elected President, because after all none of the mall shoe stores were hiring and there's really nothing else Junior is qualified to do..."
And now all you Southern crackers are dancing around the May pole talking about how your NEW "political correctness" allows you to shoot African Americans again. John, SELF DEFENSE??? Give me a break. This is another lynching made possible by the post-911 political climate.
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I'm literally on the floor laughing. My god, where did that come from.
Some pent up anger over 2000 still?
BTW, I KNOW african americans with CCW permits and have used their carry guns for self defence. Don't try to turn this into some bs liberal race issue when it isn't.
I have pals in my shooting club who are black and one is even x PPCLI, and they feel as strongly about this issue as anyone.
You are a racist in my book for even bringing that up.
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
These perps had robbed the same store without loss of life in the past and this cracker sets up an ambush in order to kill them should they try again.
And this suppose to make it ok?
You are fcuking nuts Elf. Too bad that the other goon survived. He'll get another chance to kill someone. Hopefully not your child
(http://www.raf303.org/forum/i/angryfinger.gif)
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some people think the term "cracker" is a insult, the name comes from when florida had a large cattle industry and cowboys rode horses,they carried whips that they "cracked" to herd the cattle, so the term "cracker' is far from an insult.
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How low can you libs go (http://www.raf303.org/forum/i/angryfire.gif)
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Lol, I can't believe you guys do have EllenWoof in your squelch list yet?
Wab
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If you do, you're missing some of the best trolls I've seen in awhile. :)
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Originally posted by mietla
How low can you libs go (http://www.raf303.org/forum/i/angryfire.gif)
Sometimes you really gotta get in the dirt just to look your opponent in the eye.
Now if the guy had invested in a cell phone instead of a .45 and had called 911 we would have stood a much better chance of having 2 perps in custody instead of 1 dead young man. But thats just me. I don't think self appointed executioners are good to have around.
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See, that is reasonable. I don't personally agree with it, but it's a free country (well, America is).
Mid Target.
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911 is used to report a crime
a .45 is used to stop a crime
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Now if the guy had invested in a cell phone instead of a .45 and had called 911
yeah, right.
- Dad says, excuse me gentlemen let me call the 911 to resolve this.
- They give the guy two minutes to call 911 and describe the stick up to the operator.
- they patiently wait for the cops to arrive
- they surrender peacefully
we would have stood a much better chance of having 2 perps in custody
and just why would we want them in custody? To release them on their own recognizance and let them rob someone at gun point some other time?
instead of 1 dead young man.
[/B]
you are inconsistent here. He's not a "young man", he is a perp.
You libs just have a gift with words. According to CNN Mohammad Atta and the rest of these vermin were not terrorists, they were "alleged hijackers".
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No doubt about it, this guy hunted the robbers. Good for him, but one lived. :(
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As a Liberal....
....I have absolutely no problems with this.
Sucks that the guy died, but he up and paid the price. It was his choice to try to rob that store, if he hadn't made the wrong choice he'd still be alive.
Responsiblity sometimes bites you really freaking hard, sometimes so hard you don't get the chance to learn from your screw up. That's life.
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You confuse me Karnak. I know you from a bunch of BBS and you keep proclaiming that you are a hard core liberal, but dare I say it, you are not.
You are just a "common sense" guy. Remember your 30 point "liberal" manifesto? I agreed to 28 of you "thesis", and I'm the last person to be associated with the progressive...liberal.., hell let's call by its name ... the socialist agenda.
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>No doubt about it, this guy hunted the robbers.
I did hear he might get fined for not having any tags.
He had already gutted him and was in the process of tying him on the roof of his car when the cops showed up. :cool:
Wab
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Well, that's damn near true. His Son was robbed and he picked him up fully loaded and ready every night since. So ready he just demolished the little toejams.
I've had bucks come in under my bow stand that just stopped my heart, but this must have been a helluva rush. He didn't get buck fever I see, lol.
The guy should be awarded a medal, but I have to wonder why he didn't have black talons loaded. I always use Brenacke german Slugs for Wisconsin deer season, they NEVER let one get away.
Anyway, sorry to here my tax dollars will go for suction tubes on that little bastards chest wound. He might still die, but i can only hope.
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>The guy should be awarded a medal
Or at least be allowed to get him mounted. :cool:
Wab
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Elfenwolf you crack me up. Ahh well the gig's up, you're right, if they were white he'd have helped them load the car and waved them off.
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Sucks that the guy died, but he up and paid the price. It was his choice to try to rob that store, if he hadn't made the wrong choice he'd still be alive.
It doesn't "suck" at all. I'm glad the piece of sh*t is dead :cool:
Too bad the other one isn't wormfood as well.
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"British 18 year old who was recently shot and killed by a British Pensioner with his shotgun"
Yes and the dear old pensioner had previous convictions for shooting at people, convictions for having illegal firearms (One who took an apple from a tree at the roadside), had his gunlicense invoked and deliberatly setup traps in his house and shot the guy in the back, as they turned tail the moment they were confronted.
At the appeal, he had his murder charge turned into a manslaughter conviction due to insanity.
Daff
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Elfenpuke you kill me!
Is there nothing you won't use as a troll?
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hmmm.. Elfenwolf yer obviously a tard. And obviously have no kids either, which I think to be a good thing.
MT what good is a cell phone in this situation? Perp sees you using it and, if yer lucky, tells ya to shut it off/drop it. If you're not lucky he puts a bullet through it and your head at the same time.
Was Dad hunting the perps? I don't think so. He was prepared if they showed up while he was there to pick up his son though.
I don't know about you nay sayers, but given the same situation I'd have done the same thing. I've got 3 kids and I'll be damned if anyone other that God himself is going to take'em out of this world. If you threaten one of my kids with a weapon of any kind you'd better be ready to get a pair of slugs center mass and go on to meet your maker.
I have license to carry and my preferred weapon is a Colt 1911-A1 chambered in .45ACP carried in Condition 1. I've participated in USPSA/IPSC events. I never really went for all the speed rigs you see guys using, always used my every day carry rig. The idea was to practice getting the weapon online quickly and accurately if it were ever needed.
Creamo he probably wasn't loading Black Talons because Winchester made the available only to law enforcement etc back in the early-mid 90's. Ya might could still pick'em up at gun shows, but I haven't been to a show in long time so I haven't kept up with'em. I always preferred the Reminton Golden Sabers as my carry load. The "flying trashcans" they were called :D
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A CCW law is working its way through the Ohio congress right now. It's full of holes and I don't think it will pass but I am sure that sooner or later we will have one.
The only thing that scares armed criminals is armed victims.
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Lol, I can't believe you guys do have EllenWoof in your squelch list yet?
Wab
Wab, I have since his 15th post on the BBS :)
Anyway, just wanted to point out that if these gentlemen had shot and killed the father, or employees of the store as they robbed it, it most likely would have made the National evening news with some sort of headline like "GUNS:America held hostage". But, since in this case the gun was used in self-defense, it gets a blub on a webpage, maybe the NRA publication.
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Originally posted by AKWabbit
Good shot. Too bad he didn't finish off the other salamander.
Wab
I also agree. Less scum roaming this earth.
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Originally posted by CavemanJ
Was Dad hunting the perps? I don't think so. He was prepared if they showed up while he was there to pick up his son though.
I agree. It's better to have a gun and not need it, than to need it and not have it.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Wab, I have since his 15th post on the BBS :)
Oh yeah, let's not forget Ripsnort is the very first Efluff'n Squelcher. My crime? I alluded to the fact that Ripsnort's hemmerhoids are so much larger than his testicles he has to wear his jock strap backwards.
Now don't forget, for every squelch I get Bill Gates donates 1,000 dollars to the United Negro College Fund PLUS I will send you ABSOLUTELY FREE an "I'm An Efluff'n Squelcher" t-shirt.
Thank you for your support.
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Originally posted by Mighty1
Elfenpuke you kill me!
Is there nothing you won't use as a troll?
no.
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Good shot on the first bandit. Should have taken better aim on the second bandit but perhaps he learned his lesson. If he tries to pursue the defender for compensation or civil rights violations I suggest someone string the punk up on the closest tree and let him hang there seven days as a testimonial to others.
Make the world a better place, kill all bandits.
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Hey Creamo,you can still purchase Black Talon,but only in lower velocity rounds. The +P and up is law enforcement only.
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Elfenwolf, you're truly the master :D
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Originally posted by Elfenwolf
Read the article. These perps had robbed the same store without loss of life in the past
The identity of the previous robbers was not known at the time - otherwise the police would have appreheded them.
If it was known for sure that the robbers would not resort to violence, what would be the point of robbery? The victim would just refuse to cooperate.
It often happens that the criminals shoot unresisting robbery victims after they get what they want - just to eliminate the witnesses. Especially since one guy was working in the same store and could have been recognised.
miko
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So what if there was no loss of life in the past robberies?This makes it OK to rob people at gunpoint?How would you know if they are going to shoot or not?
Sorry,if someone points a gun at ME while committing a crime,and I am armed,he/she becomes a target.
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"Should have taken better aim on the second bandit "
"I also agree. Less scum roaming this earth."
"It doesn't "suck" at all. I'm glad the piece of sh*t is dead "
"Too bad the other one isn't wormfood as well."
"Anyway, sorry to here my tax dollars will go for suction tubes on that little bastards chest wound. He might still die, but i can only hope."
"you are inconsistent here. He's not a "young man", he is a perp."
"One less POS."
"Good shot. Too bad he didn't finish off the other salamander. "
"I suggest someone string the punk up on the closest tree and let him hang there seven days as a testimonial to others. "
:( How sad.
The robbers are paying for their actions. No argument. What saddens me is the total lack of regard for human life I see on this board. The dead robber was 18 years old. This is sad for no other reason than that. Wake the hell up!
:mad:
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Elfenwolf, I'm no fan of guns in general...but in this case even I have to admit that:
A) It was a good thing that guy had his .45 on him.
B) It was a good thing he is a good shot.
Look, if you go into a store to rob it armed with a weapon, then you're fair game in my mind. It doesn't matter what race the robbers were. Be they Anglo-Saxon, African-American, Hispanic, Korean, Norwegian, Croat, Saudi....makes no difference. They were armed with a weapon with the intention of breaking the law.
And in my book anyone brandishing a weapon in that situation is capable of using it, and is therefore an extreme threat to anyone nearby.
They should give that 50 yr old dad a medal for saving many people's lives.
I'm about as anti-gun as they come. But when it comes to choosing between a law-abing citizen wearing a piece for protection, and some jerks out to rob some place and threaten others with a rifle......it's a no-brainer.
Please stop with your illogical and nonsensical liberal arguments. You're making us liberals look bad! :D
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How sad.
The robbers are paying for their actions. No argument. What saddens me is the total lack of regard for human life I see on this board. The dead robber was 18 years old. This is sad for no other reason than that. Wake the hell up!
Of course that is sad. It is sad that those two robbers made the decision to arm themselves and go out with the possibility to harm others with a rifle. It is sad that they chose to hold up innocent people at gunpoint just for some cash.
I don't agree with you that it's sad that the two robbers died, though. In my mind, once you have made the decision to use a weapon with the possibility of harming someone else, you have just forfeited your right to live as a human being.
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You want people to feel sorry for robbers and murderers?
You wake the hell up! I stopped feeling sorry for violent criminals a long time ago. "Jerk em to Jesus on the end of an eight foot rope and let the good lord do the mercy work".
Tired of the roadkill. Behave or get punished.
EDIT: forgot me smiley face! :)
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Yeager, they are potential voters for the Democratic party! Come on man! Just look at the 2000 election! ;)
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Originally posted by Yeager
You want people to feel sorry for robbers and murderers?
You wake the hell up! I stopped feeling sorry for violent criminals a long time ago. "Jerk em to Jesus on the end of an eight foot rope and let the good lord do the mercy work".
Tired of the roadkill. Behave or get punished.
Never said they didn't earn the punishment....but it remains SAD that a KID died.
Human life is precious. I bet you're anti abortion too.
What if the kid had gotten drunk and piled his car into a concrete wall....would that be sad? He brought it on himself didn't he?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
What if the kid had gotten drunk and piled his car into a concrete wall....would that be sad? He brought it on himself didn't he?
Now you know that's not the same thing at all.
He intentionally carried a gun into a video store that he was intending on robbing, and possibly to cap a few of those people too.
Getting drunk and then getting in your car piss drunk, you don't have the intention of smashing head long into a tree or whatever else crosses your path. You aren't even in the right state of mind, you know you shouldn't be in the car in the first place... your just to drunk to tell yourself that.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Now you know that's not the same thing at all.
He intentionally carried a gun into a video store that he was intending on robbing, and possibly to cap a few of those people too.
Getting drunk and then getting in your car piss drunk, you don't have the intention of smashing head long into a tree or whatever else crosses your path. You aren't even in the right state of mind, you know you shouldn't be in the car in the first place... your just to drunk to tell yourself that.
-SW
Not the same but close enough to make a point.
The kid went into the store carrying a weapon...you don't have a clue about his intentions regarding capping people, that is irrelevent. The shooting was probably justified. No argument as I said earlier.
My example kid intentionally got piss drunk knowing he had to drive home....the consequences are clear and pounded home regularly by the media...don't drink and drive.
Both brought the punishment for their actions upon themselves. Neither death should be freakin celebrated!
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Never said they didn't earn the punishment....but it remains SAD that a KID died.
Human life is precious. I bet you're anti abortion too.
What if the kid had gotten drunk and piled his car into a concrete wall....would that be sad? He brought it on himself didn't he?
"Human life is precious"
And there's the rub...
You take a gun and stick in in my face or my family's, you are not a human anymore.
You are an animal.
And if I can, I will put you down before you harm me or mine. Period.
An armed kid isn't a kid anymore, whether he's 12 or 20, his bullet will kill you the same dead when he pulls the trigger..
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I served on a jury once, hearing the case of an armed bank robber. Let me tell you this, those poor tellers would have to get on the stand and retell their story. Watching them and the emotions they had months after the incident it's a no brainer to tell they're messed in the head for life. No one thinks about the victims of crimes when they are spouting nonsense about criminals rights.
Screw him, 18, 8, 80...I could give a damn how old he was, if he comes brandishing a gun in my face I will have very little respect for his life as I blow him away myself.
Elfenwolf, I hope you are never a victim. If you ever are I would like to see how much your ideologies are shaken. Give it a rest man, these punks got exactly what they deserved.
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What would you say about those kids who blasted columbine all to hell? The media sure had a field day demonizing those kids....
I guess it's all in what your motives are.
-SW
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Well Tah Gut, I'm glad he's dead and I'm not only pro-choice, I'm pro abortion in the chinese levels of birth control.
A closer parallel would be if your son drove home plastered every night, ran cars off the road every night, and had everyone afraid he was going to kill them every night. Then one night he died in a one car accident. The result from this single event, much like the result of the blockbuster robbery, is the world is slightly better off afterwards. Cause for a celebration in my book.
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Just for the record, I've had a weapon pulled on me 4 times, and fired at me twice of those 4 times. I carry a weapon in my car, and on my person when down town (Except when we go to dinner, due to firearms regulations in Bars). It DOES have an effect on you once you get the toejamt scared out of you.
Edit, "Twice in those 4 times" Forgot about the .22 rifle the little neighborhood kid fired at me in a temper tantrum.
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No, it's never a cause for celebration. This young hoodlum was one of OURS. We should be aware of the forces that drive this kind of behavior and try like hell to stamp them out.
Watch the video on the link...Mr. Shockey doesn't even agree with you. He expressed his remorse and regret to the families of the young man he shot.
I think you would all feel differently had you been on the trigger end. Even you Eagler. :cool:
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Heh. I believe the force was a small explosion which drove a small projectile. Keep trying though, I think I'm starting to feel something....oops, no that was just gas.
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Tahgut, I feel remorse and sorry for the parents of not understanding how to properly raise a child, how to "interfere" with their lives by knowing who they hang out with, know 24/7/365 what they're kids were doing. Granted these "kids" were adults when they committed the crimes, the chances are favorable that they wouldn't have even been in this situation if they had proper upbringing.
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Human life is precious.
Not all human life is precious. Some humans are scum and are not "precious" by any stretch of the imagination.
No, it's never a cause for celebration. This young hoodlum was one of OURS.
Bullsh*t. He wasn't one of mine. Good riddance to the POS.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
No, it's never a cause for celebration. This young hoodlum was one of OURS. We should be aware of the forces that drive this kind of behavior and try like hell to stamp them out.
Watch the video on the link...Mr. Shockey doesn't even agree with you. He expressed his remorse and regret to the families of the young man he shot.
I think you would all feel differently had you been on the trigger end. Even you Eagler. :cool:
The punk is gone and the world is a little better for it. Is it cause for celebration? Yes and no. The world is a little better place now, good reason to celebrate in my book. It was the death of an 18yr old that made it better. Not really a reason to celebrate.
What is sad is that they decided to cross the line. I agree with you that we should work on the cause of the problem. But that's hard to do. It usualy comes down to the Haves and the Have Nots. They wanted to the money to buy something they couldna afford yet. And the one that lived had a job! (probably doesn't any more though).
As for Mr. Shockey's feelings expressed in the video, I've no doubt that he is sorry he had to use his weapon. He took on a pretty big burden when he decided he was going to get his license and carry. He magnified that burden at least 10fold that night in Blockbuster. He'll probably carry an image of that kid with him to his grave and his life is forever changed.
banana I don't think you're as anti-gun as ya make yourself out to be. At least you acknoledge the difference between criminals and citizens protecting themselves/others. Most of the full bore anti-gun folks are gonna wanna see Dad brought up on some kind of charge for shooting the kids and will only admit under threat of imminent death or something worse that what Dad did was actually a good thing. Of course first thing they're gonna try to do is sweep the whole thing under the carpet because it undermines thier case about concealed firearms.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
No, it's never a cause for celebration. This young hoodlum was one of OURS. We should be aware of the forces that drive this kind of behavior and try like hell to stamp them out.
Watch the video on the link...Mr. Shockey doesn't even agree with you. He expressed his remorse and regret to the families of the young man he shot.
I think you would all feel differently had you been on the trigger end. Even you Eagler. :cool:
I pray every night that I or my family will never be in such a situation.
But put in the same circumstances, I pray I'd have the clarity of mind to act swiftly and surely enough to prevent loss of "innocent" life.
As for what he said in the video, what else do you expect him to say? Anything else, he'd end up in some screwy lawsuit..
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Someone should make a frequently run commercial or "public service announcment" that brandishing a knife or a gun in that situation explicitly means that you are willing to use deadly force to accomplish your means. Thus you are also accepting the fact that you can be dealt with through deadly force. This may or may not get through to certain folks tho.
Never draw a gun or knife unless you're damned well prepared to use it, or have it used against you.
I echo the sentiments of others... criminals do not necessarily follow "rules of conduct." The hijackers on Sept. 11 didn't follow the accepted "rules of conduct" of hijackers. Relying on criminals NOT to harm your loved ones is foolish... I hope the father and his family get through this ok w/o lawsuits. I hope I will have the strength to protect my family if the need ever arises.
mauser
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Sometimes we just need to look to the Vandals for guidance.
A Gun For Christmas
From the Album "Oi To the World"
Families lock their doors in fear that criminals might get them - But this Christmas rest assured that I will have my own protection.
- I'll get a gun for Christmas to protect my other gifts
- If burgers touch my property they won't leave here with out a limp
- Packing heat this Christmas I'll shoot it off on New Year's Eve,
- cuz bullets go in outer space when pointed up I believe
- A bullet sends a Christmas message that is clear and loud
- it says that I will not take all of this roadkill lying down
- I'll get a gun for Christmas to protect my other gifts
- I'll only tell you once "Stay the diddly away from my toejam"
- I will use my new weapon in self-defense and sport
- and to keep the carolers off my Golly-geen porch
- and preventing Yuletide homicide's this year
- I won't be a victim this year thanks to Santa Clause
- Sleeping with no fear of danger, and it's all because
- I'll get a gun for Christmas to protect my other gifts
- I'll only tell you once "Stay the diddly away from my toejam"
- Christmas needs security , security is weapons.
- Vigilante action teaching criminals their lessons
- It's the greatest gift we have taking out our rivals
- Thank you Santa, thank you God
- for guaranteeing my survival
- A bullet sends a Christmas message that is clear and loud
- it says that I will not take all of this roadkill lying down
- I'll get a gun for Christmas to protect my other gifts
- I'll only tell you once "Stay the diddly away from my toejam"
- I won't be a victim this year thanks to Santa Clause
- Sleeping with no fear of danger, and it's all because
- I'll get a gun for Christmas to protect my other gifts
- I'll only tell you once "Stay the diddly away from my crap
- or I'll bust a cap in your ass!!!"
Your in Service,
-Sikboy
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It's sad that anyone is so screwed up as to commit an armed robbery. It's sad that the kids' parents have lost their child. That's about as far as it goes. Kids had a rifle and threatened people. Kid holding the rifle gets killed. The other kid went for the rifle and dad shot him too. Better the perps than the innocents.
Leave Elfenwolf alone. He's just looking for the three billy goats gruff. :rolleyes:
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(Tahgut shuffles off to try to explain the sanctity of human life to a brick wall.......the wall seems to be more understanding.)
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Tahgut are you stupid?
Has it escaped your bizzare morality thatr the two guys were armed robbers?
Armed robbers?
With Guns?
With Bullets?
They were using them in a crime?
Is this because they are black?
Are your sons armed robbers too and you are worried?
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If some of you really saw what happens on the streets every stinkin' day as I have, you wouldn't let your loved ones out of the house. You see only the sensational, the "news worthy" events.
You don't see the filth, the pure, unadulterated evil. There is nothing in the eyes. No compassion. Creatures such as these robbers don't even see you. You don't exist. You don't count. Only they and thier desires do.
Sure. Go snivel & wail. Some of ya haven't a clue.
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Followed this thread for a bit and was mildly surprised. (I already knew ellendork has nothing of any merit to say)
What surprised me was the comment about the cell phone. I feel fairly certain the police were called after the first robery. That pretty much sums up the veracity of the cell phone solution for a problem in real time. FWIW. average time to respond to a crime in process, assuming there are Officers available, is about 2 to 15 minutes. More than enough time to commit the robbery, multiple murders AND get far away.
As a retired Police Officer I can't fault the dad in any way. Just becuase there has been no loss of life in previous robberies has no bearing that there won't be any killings by subsequent robbers. Unless of course you subscribve to the theory that these were the same robbers in ALL robberies and that THEY made the decision before hand to NOT shoot any one under any circumstances. I find that hard to believe given that, 1. they came to rob the store at gun point: and 2. the second robber decided to pick up the gun AFTER his partner was shot instead of surrendering. These 2 items lead me to believe they were intending to use deadly force to get what they wanted and that force would be used if they decided to do so.
For those who wish to willingly be a victim, you are on your own. For those who do not, I see nothing in the constitution or laws (at least in this country, as I know this doesn't apply in Canada and Europe) that negates the right of self defense for non criminals. Lest you think otherwise, the mere threat of deadly force during the crime (such as armed robbery) constitutes a deadly threat to the victims life. No criminal has the right to threaten a victim with their life. Coincidentally, in conflict with what some may think, there is no right to commit a crime either.
YMMV
PS I didn't see how many shots were fired in any of the articles but there was no mention of "spray and pray" tactics either. Well done, many Police Officers haven't done that well in deadly situations.
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Originally posted by Apache
If some of you really saw what happens on the streets every stinkin' day as I have, you wouldn't let your loved ones out of the house. You see only the sensational, the "news worthy" events.
You don't see the filth, the pure, unadulterated evil. There is nothing in the eyes. No compassion. Creatures such as these robbers don't even see you. You don't exist. You don't count. Only they and thier desires do.
Sure. Go snivel & wail. Some of ya haven't a clue.
Amen Apache, but then we share a common background. We have been there and most here haven't a clue to the reality of the situation. :)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
The kid went into the store carrying a weapon...you don't have a clue about his intentions regarding capping people, that is irrelevent. The shooting was probably justified. No argument as I said earlier.
Grunherz....Are you stupid? Can you read? Should I put it in big capital letters? I posted at least 3 times I thought the shooting was JUSTIFIED.
It is the careless disregard for the loss of a TEENAGER that makes me wonder what kind of TWISTED MORALITY you all have.
I also never once mentioned RACE, or my sons, so why did you?
:rolleyes:
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Well I dont get why you feel so bad about this? They werent nice people?
Anyway I asked if your symathy was more to them because you have black sons, maybe you see it different?
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I think the Dad deserves a parade and a medal!
So many young thugs thinks it's cool to be a banger, give the youth better role models, show them they can get glory and praise fighting the good fight.
The NRA should take this one and run with it - best ad to own a firearm and a permit I've seen in a while.
Bet their homies think twice before pulling a similar stunt.
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Are your sons armed robbers too and you are worried?
Excuse me for mistaking the tenor of your post. It seems less sympathetic and more accusatory, but I will accept your intention as opposed to my perception.
Maybe I do have a different view because of my sons. But that is not my point.
Yes they were bad, they had guns, yadda yadda....agreed. They were still teenage Americans and we all should shoulder some measure of responsibility in our loss as a Nation. We should never write off anyone that young as an "animal" or any other dehumanizing notion. It is a sad thing that another young man is dead. Even if he deserved to die.
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Originally posted by Maverick
As a retired Police Officer I can't fault the dad in any way.
I can fault the Dad if he returned to the video store, fully armed, locked and loaded, every night in order to exact revenge on the perps who had done the earlier heist. How do we know what actually went down when he was lying in wait in the Sci-Fi section right at closing time? I'm amazed you, a retired peace officer, could look at the scant perticulars offered up involving this case and declare the Dad absolutely blameless. Personally I would wait until I saw the complete police report accompanied by statements of witnesses before I'd exonerate anyone, but on the surface I'm inclined to agree with you based upon the published news reports.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Excuse me for mistaking the tenor of your post. It seems less sympathetic and more accusatory, but I will accept your intention as opposed to my perception.
Maybe I do have a different view because of my sons. But that is not my point.
Yes they were bad, they had guns, yadda yadda....agreed. They were still teenage Americans and we all should shoulder some measure of responsibility in our loss as a Nation. We should never write off anyone that young as an "animal" or any other dehumanizing notion. It is a sad thing that another young man is dead. Even if he deserved to die.
I shoulder responsibility for MY actions and those of MY son (while he is a juvinile) but I do not take ANY responsibility for actions that were FREELY taken by others. Those individuals had a choice. They CHOSE to commit a robbery. They CHOSE to use a firearm during the robbery. THEY are responsible for THEIR actions, I am not.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
Yes they were bad, they had guns, yadda yadda....agreed. They were still teenage Americans and we all should shoulder some measure of responsibility in our loss as a Nation. We should never write off anyone that young as an "animal" or any other dehumanizing notion. It is a sad thing that another young man is dead. Even if he deserved to die.
yeah right... too bad we can't dispose of more of his kind. our 'herd' is crawling and stagnant due to the fact that we pander to the lowest common denominator and tolerate little punk tulips like him. my city is crawling with petty thugs like him that make it crappy for the rest of us.
i feel the same way for him as i do for the bum that used to live on my block but died last month: good riddance.
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"Femwolf seems about as pro gun/self defence as Pongo. "It's for the children"... "
gman wishes cool stuff that that could happen to him.
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Just for the record, I've had a weapon pulled on me 4 times, and fired at me twice of those 4 times. I carry a weapon in my car, and on my person when down town (Except when we go to dinner, due to firearms regulations in Bars). It DOES have an effect on you once you get the toejamt scared out of you.
Edit, "Twice in those 4 times" Forgot about the .22 rifle the little neighborhood kid fired at me in a temper tantrum.
Having a weapon pulled on you by your wife because you've been frequenting a gay bar qualifies more as domestic violence than a street crime, Ripper. You should be relieved that on the two occasions she fired at you she was aiming at your...uh...manhood, a target so small it would take a trained marksman to hit at 10 yards, BTW. Your biggest danger was that she might have blasted off a hemmerhoid or two, but so what? I'm sure you grow them back faster than a lizzard grows back a severed tail, so I doubt you've ever been in any REAL danger now, huh? Maybe you should divorce her.
I hope I'm never so fearful I feel compelled to violate state law by carrying a concealed weapon. I've run across people at parties like Ripsnort who have a 9mm or a .40 cal. and become bolstered through the empowerment these guns may offer them, I have watched them get a "power rush" and I'm a hell of a lot more scared of that kind of idiot who may have had a few drinks and feels like he has to get even with you because you cut off his Beamer at a traffic light than I ever will feel by some kid looking for quick cash by targeting a video store (although in all fairness I must admit I've never been involved in a video store robbery).
You guys think this was a great solution to a robbery in progress? Ask the Dad 5 years from now- 10 years from now- hell, 30 years from now about the kid he killed. Ask him if he still sees the look in the kid's eyes when he shot him. Ask him if he still remembers the choking sounds someone who has a chest wound makes as they're dying. Ask him if he was alarmed at just how much blood can spread so quickly across a tile floor and how it feels to have to walk through it...Sorry, guys, but killing someone haunts you forever. You all talk the talk, but obviously none of you have ever walked the walk.
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So Elfie, did you drop the conspiracy theory about the father being an undercover secret service agent employed by Jeb Bush assigned to racial cleansing? Haven't seen much about that lately.
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I have decided to start my post with...THE SHOOTING WAS PROBABLY JUSTIFIED. Just to assist the challenged among you.
It is amazing to me how omnitient you all seem to be. You are sure that that young man would have continued with his life of crime and become human scum. The fact that there are hundreds of stories about youths turning their life around is irrelevent to you.
Sad, very sad that the death of another American youth is celebrated. Well, I guess you all can get some satisfaction in the fact that many more young men will die just like him. You all just maintain your personal responsibility and go on with your lives.
Please stop harping on this "the Dad was right" mantra. I'm not saying he wasn't. I'm saying you all are diminished by your complete disregard for the loss of another young man. You should be ashamed for celebrating that aspect of this story.
I'm out.
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so it's his age?
i mean is it because the phrase "another lost youth" sounds so scripted and heartwrenching that it must be true?
pretty "democratic-convention-level" hollow symbolism aside what about reality?
all a youth like him is - is a problem waiting to happen. i'm sick of the tired notion that everyone starts out wonderful and is only drawn to evil via some societal causation. some people are just no damn good and age is no excuse.
there's plenty of other youths out there that had the same chance to go wrong and knew better. not all of them learned that from their parents either. they are safer to reap the benefits of a free nation because this waste of space is no longer among us.
there's no garuantee of life in this world. he had a chance and blew it - that's nature.
people are so swayed by words and symbols "calling him an animal dehumanizes him" no the fact that he chose to disrupt the order of a lawful society makes him an animal. no wonder politicians have us by the balls - all it takes is a sappy phrase or a flag with an eagle infront of it and you'll swallow anything the feed you.
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MT I do my part. I try to raise my kids right and teach them right from wrong. Don't try to tell me I should shoulder some of the responsibility for those 2 thugs in Blockbuster.
MT go read what Apache and Maverick have written. That boy ceased being a boy when he walked in that door with a rifle with the intention to rob the store. They didna see the people in the store as people, they saw them as obstacles to be overcome.
I get such a kick out of Elfenwolf's repeated claims that Dad was laying in wait for the perps. What I got from the articles was that Dad started picking his son up at work after the first robbery happened. I'd probably do the same thing. I do not believe Dad was just waiting on them return, because there's no guarantee that they would return.
However, and God help me for this, I do agree with one thing.
Ask the Dad 5 years from now- 10 years from now- hell, 30 years from now about the kid he killed. Ask him if he still sees the look in the kid's eyes when he shot him. Ask him if he still remembers the choking sounds someone who has a chest wound makes as they're dying. Ask him if he was alarmed at just how much blood can spread so quickly across a tile floor and how it feels to have to walk through it...Sorry, guys, but killing someone haunts you forever.
Like I said above, his life is forever changed.
Mav I'm curious about how many shots were fired. If he had emptied the clip it would be national news: "VIGILANTE FIRES WILDLY IN CROWDED VIDEO STORE".
Seems Dad was in complete control from what I've read, so I'd wager the number of shots fired is either 2 or 4. Depends on his practice/training I guess. I always double tap a target, but that's me.
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Originally posted by Fatty
So Elfie, did you drop the conspiracy theory about the father being an undercover secret service agent employed by Jeb Bush assigned to racial cleansing? Haven't seen much about that lately.
Nah Fatty, we're still working on that angle, but Jeb Bush doesn't need the help of the Fathers of Florida to continue the policy of ethnic clensing- he still has the Florida State Supreme Court at his disposal.
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Cave,
I doubt we'll see much about this incident as it is just too positive for the media towards the use of a firearm to protect crime victims. As a matter of fact it didn't even make the news here in Southern AZ. and I'm not surprised. The local media here is so rabid about firearms the paper refuses to take want adds from private sellers for firearms.
As for wellandork, he is the only person I have squelched on the bbs. Creating static and slinging fecal matter just to create a reaction is not expresing a cogent thought. It is just another example of vandalism or "tagging", just on the bbs. I cover grafitti on anything I own and ignore it when I have no control over the tagged item.
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"Femwolf!" Oh wow. :D that is too much. I'm rolling on the floor over here. WTFG!
Tahgut, I'd love to see the look on your face looking down the barrel of that armed robber's shotgun. All your namby pamby crap would be draining right down your leg.
C'mon. Get real here, or are you trolling too?
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Originally posted by Gunthr
"Femwolf!" Oh wow. :D that is too much. I'm rolling on the floor over here. WTFG!
Tahgut, I'd love to see the look on your face looking down the barrel of that armed robber's shotgun. All your namby pamby crap would be draining right down your leg.
C'mon. Get real here, or are you trolling too?
First of all, it wasn't a shotgun the perps were armed with. Second of all, you're damn right we'd be pissing our pants if someone aimed a gun at us. And thirdly, "femwolf" isn't THAT funny, is it? I thought "ellenwolf" was funnier.
Hey look, I love a good conservative argument, and for my money Mister Fish and Hortlund are very well thought out, well-stated and articulate and I enjoy their conservative points of view. I DO feel, however, that most of you other self-described conservatives should at least read the article you're responding to instead of looking at the responses to determine your point of view, and you, Gunthr, are right at the top of my list of brainless morons whose only view of current events is whatever Rush Limbaugh TELLS you to think. Thank God there's no trailer parks in my neighborhood, so we will never be neighbors.
Maverick claims he's retired law enforcement but every retired cop I know, including 4 of my uncles who have retired from everything from the CHP to various city police departments and county sheriff's departments, are opposed to this sort of "vigilante justice" based upon the fact most citizens either 1) aren't trained for combat pistol use or 2) are too emotionally involved to use good judgement.
I have a cousin currently working for the CHP, my brother in law is a Captain in the Sacramento, California PD, and I hang out with several sheriffs' deputies, state troopers and city cops, and EVERY ONE of them expresses concerns over motorists cruising around packing guns. IMHO if Maverick thinks "armed citizens" are a good idea then I'm glad he cashiered out. As for the rest of you Limbolites who feel cruising around town with a concealed weapon is a good idea then I can only hope you get busted, lose your handguns and have to work weekends cleaning our Nation's hiways. I'll be the guy honking, grinning and waving at you while you're picking up trash on the side of the road.
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Elfenwolf, try this:
"Femwolf!" Oh wow. that is too much. I'm rolling on the floor over here. WTFG! :D
Tahgut, I'd love to see the look on your face looking down the barrel of that armed robber's rifle. All your namby pamby crap would be draining right down your leg.
C'mon. Get real here, or are you trolling too?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Admit it, "Femwolf" must have got you laughing. :p
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Must add: I'm not an advocate for people driving around armed all the time. I never made that statement.
I cringe though, at bleeding hearts that sound like they are almost more concerned for the perpetrator than the victim. If you actually experience what its like to be a VICTIM, as I intended to point out, the world looks quite different.
Did the father do the right thing by picking up his son everynight at the video store closing? Did the father do the right thing by arming himself? Did the father do the right thing when he shot these two armed robbers who put his son's life in peril? Where's the OUTRAGE at these animals for endangering the life of this boy who was only trying to earn money by working for it?
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"didn't make the news in AZ"...hell , it didn't make the news in florida where it happened. i had to read about it in here.
i guess it was an "over sight" by the news media
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Elfenwolf, try this:
"Femwolf!" Oh wow. that is too much. I'm rolling on the floor over here. WTFG! :D
Tahgut, I'd love to see the look on your face looking down the barrel of that armed robber's rifle. All your namby pamby crap would be draining right down your leg.
C'mon. Get real here, or are you trolling too?
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Admit it, "Femwolf" must have got you laughing. :p
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Must add: I'm not an advocate for people driving around armed all the time. I never made that statement.
I cringe though, at bleeding hearts that sound like they are almost more concerned for the perpetrator than the victim. If you actually experience what its like to be a VICTIM, as I intended to point out, the world looks quite different.
Did the father do the right thing by picking up his son everynight at the video store closing? Did the father do the right thing by arming himself? Did the father do the right thing when he shot these two armed robbers who put his son's life in peril? Where's the OUTRAGE at these animals for endangering the life of this boy who was only trying to earn money by working for it?
Nah, Gunther, "femwolf" was funny, but "ellenwolf" was funnier. Hey, I laughed at both of them. Originally I started out trolling, but the ability of so many of you to open the book, hear the case and slam the book shut on your judgement has made me look again at this issue.
The result of this is a dead teenager, another teenager with a gunshot wound to the chest in ICU and a father who will face a lifetime of regret over what has occured rather criminal or civil charges are ever brought against him or not.
You think this was a good resolution to thwart their attempted heist of what, maybe two hundred bucks? Once again, all of you here in the hen house do that cluck-cluck-cluck'ing, talk about how empowered you all feel because a "bad guy" got offed and all of you are somehow justified in celebrating a victory for the "good guys" over "evil" and you make statements like "hang him up for seven days" and you know what I think? I think so many of you are scared little white boys swimming in a sea of ignorance that I find laughable. Fuggoff.
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I think by saying'I hang out with several sheriffs' deputies, state troopers and city cops', one would tend to bet you tape episodes of COPS, and have a scanner in your kitchen.
At least we both found something laughable in the thread, so all good.
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Wow, an interesting thread for a change.
First, I dont celebrate the death of these young hoodlums, but nor do I mourn them. I think they got exactly what was coming to them. They are the ones that made some bad choices, they are responsible for the situation and they paid the price. No lose to society, and more probably their deaths slightly improved the gene pool.
We could spend years discussing how disadvantaged they might have been, etc. I won't.
Someone who lives in Eau Claire WI, if that is his experience in life, has a very limited frame of reference. I grew up between Gary Indiana and the south side of Chicago. I know all about violence.
I have had a knife held to my throat, had guns pointed at me, and one of my very best friends was brutally murdered by two young robbers.
I dont celebrate the deaths of two robbers, but I sure as hell dont feel bad about it. I wouldnt give a damn if all robbers were killed.
Dago
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Elfenwolf, try this:
"Femwolf!" Oh wow. that is too much. I'm rolling on the floor over here. WTFG! :D
Tahgut, I'd love to see the look on your face looking down the barrel of that armed robber's rifle. All your namby pamby crap would be draining right down your leg.
C'mon. Get real here, or are you trolling too?
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Admit it, "Femwolf" must have got you laughing. :p
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Must add: I'm not an advocate for people driving around armed all the time. I never made that statement.
I cringe though, at bleeding hearts that sound like they are almost more concerned for the perpetrator than the victim. If you actually experience what its like to be a VICTIM, as I intended to point out, the world looks quite different.
Did the father do the right thing by picking up his son everynight at the video store closing? Did the father do the right thing by arming himself? Did the father do the right thing when he shot these two armed robbers who put his son's life in peril? Where's the OUTRAGE at these animals for endangering the life of this boy who was only trying to earn money by working for it?
Gunther,
Don't try to argue a point with this "person". He obviously takes delight in just being a fecal flinger. Had he just tried to state a position on various threads instead of posting the most outlandish type of trash he could think of he just might get some decent discussion. Fact is he has poisoned the well so many times few want to spend any time responding to him as he hasn't stated anything worth considering. This type of person is just trying to make himself feel good by making others react to him instead of thinking and expressing an argument. Not a nasty name calling thing but a discussion type of discourse. Since he has started off so poorly he just cut himself out of any consideration.
If that bit about "hanging around cops" is from him, I'd find that to be very doubtful unless he is a much different person than he has protrayed here. Real street cops don't waste time with one who is just trying to be a pain in the butt. I think Creamo nailed it on the head.
Kind of curious where this driving around armed thing came from as it wasn't any part of the article I read. Certainly wasn't anything pertinant to the discussion. Guess it is a fantasy thrown in.
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wouldn't "el femwolf" add a kinda mysterious latin flare to the mocking? tryin to be helpful ;)
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>are sure that that young man would have continued with his life
>of crime and become human scum.
First, he was already scum.
Second, I am quite sure that now he WON'T continue his life of crime.
Society is one less scumbag better.
Wab
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You can skew his Elfenwolf callsign all you want, the BBS delay where he unplugs the police ban scanner in shame cringing the 'COP groupie' moniker rather than post, and replaces it with Presto Burger Machine, speakes volumes.
(I bet the FryDaddy plug ain't touched in the process, mind you.)
I know Cheeseheads, I am one.
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I just saw something that makes my opinion even more skewed towards the father here. I hadn't watched the video clip before and was not really clear that the dead suspect was an employee of Blockbuster. Since he worked there that meant he had a significant probability (certainty?) of being recognised. Given that bit of info it was even more likely he would have kiled any witnesses who could have ID'd him. Of course it is uncertain given the lack of some story details such as were they wearing anything that would cover their identities.
The fact that he chose to rob his employer with a weapon leads me to believe he had no regard for the others in the store and was prepared to use the weapon. He placed himself in a poor situation where he would face an increased chance of being identified and convicted if he were recognised by any surviving witness's.
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Originally posted by Creamo
You can skew his Elfenwolf callsign all you want, the BBS delay where he unplugs the police ban scanner in shame cringing the 'COP groupie' moniker rather than post, and replaces it with Presto Burger Machine, speakes volumes.
(I bet the FryDaddy plug ain't touched in the process, mind you.)
I know Cheeseheads, I am one.
LOL Creamo, you crack me up. Great lines, and believe it or not I appreciate good comebacks as much as the next guy, and when you dish it out as much as I do you have to be willing to take it, so .
Actually I'll be attending the Reno Air Races in Sept. with a CHP buddy of mine. Hope to see you there. And BTW, I have a George Foreman Grilling Machine. Those Presto Burger machines are too cheaply made to keep up with the crow cooking I have to do.
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Just took the time to read this thread, the new report, and watch the video on the site. I have come to a few conclusions:
1. IMO the father took appropriate action. People seem to forget that his son had a weapon pointed at him.
2. This incedent could have been avioded altogether if the two teens had not decieded to rob a Blockbuster for $250 and a copy of the Pam and Tommy Lee video.
3. This incedent only furthers my belief that not only should all states allow law abiding citizens to carry concealed weapons, they should encourage them to do so.
Regardless of the post-mortum feelings of the shooter, I would rather see two dead/wounded perps then a father and son over a few bucks. I see alot of intelligent arguments on this thread and alot of not so intelligent ones - but those who are trying to paint the father as a rouge bringer of equal and just force who takes the law into his own hands... you just sicken me. Had the son and father been shot this would have barely made the news, but somehow more controvery is warrented when the good guys come out on top - kinda scary country we live in, huh?
As for those who state that they know many LEO's who opposed citizens carrying weapons, I could probably cite the same amount who support it 100% as a supliment and aid to their own duties, so the point is irrelevant.
The only grip I have about most carry permit applicants is that in most states, they are not required to take any classroom instruction in the useage of their firearm and the laws surrounding the privlege they now have. My Penn. CWL took all of 24 hours to get. Trip to Courthouse, trip to PD, trip to Courthouse... $19 thank you very much have a nice day. I wish that all states would requre both a combat handgun class AND a class teaching the law with regard to usage of the weapon.
Either way Im now off course - in my view the father could have bent over and hoped for the best or defended himself and his son - given the situation I belive he took the appropriate action.
(By comparison, here in Pa we had a local who shot his naked, drunk neighbor who was attempting to enter his home 8 times with a 1911 ("Forty-Five" for you weapons challenged people). 3 times in the chest, 2 on the back, 3 in the back of te head. He was convicted of voluntary manslaughter and sentenced to 20 years in prison. The guy is a formor Marine and you should have seen the press try and label him as a psychotic war monger... liberals. The catch it that the neighbor was not armed and was shot on the front step.. not inside the house. What do you think would have happened had he shot only once? Perception is altered by details - this seems grusome by comparison, however I have yet to read/see WHERE he shot these kids. Regardless of the location, its publishing would sway public opinion. Isnt media fun?
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Its funny how the anti-gun control side will see anything as an attack. What is also funny is how my posts have been twisted into some kind of bleeding-heart attack on the father.
I have stated repeatedly that the shooting was probably justified.
My problem is with the tone of those posts calling the dead man an animal, less than human, scum, happy he's dead, pulling down the herd, hang him for 7 days (been done), and many others. Especially those of you who claim to be Christian. Which of you is without sin, casting these stones. We have gained nothing but another death through this incident.
And thats MR. NAMBY PAMBY to you!
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Mr. Namby Pamby, (sorry Tahgut, couldn't resist :) )
You apparently reserve all your empathy for the armed robber.
Not once do you mention the poor victims! (the dad is a victim too)
You wrote: " We have gained nothing but another death through this incident."
Well, who's fault was that?
It sounds like you would feel better about this if the perpetrator had killed the kid.
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We have gained nothing but another death through this incident.
Not really, population control took 1, almost 2 steps forward.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Mr. Namby Pamby, (sorry Tahgut, couldn't resist :) )
You apparently reserve all your empathy for the armed robber.
Not once do you mention the poor victims! (the dad is a victim too)
You wrote: " We have gained nothing but another death through this incident."
Well, who's fault was that?
It sounds like you would feel better about this if the perpetrator had killed the kid.
I was only pointing out that there is a complete lack of humanity on this thread.
I feel terrible for the father. He will probably live with this the rest of his life, and YES he had to do it.
It is the dead boy's fault that all this occured of course. I never stated otherwise.
Your last statement is just sickening in its ignorance.
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Sorry Tahgut, if it does not apply.
But if the perpetrator had killed the kid, and THEN the dad shot and killed the robber...
... I think you might not be as anguished over the robber's death.
Of course, one can't blame the dad for not allowing that to happen.
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I am anguished over ANY death that happens by a gun, rather it be in Afghanistan or Florida. This is a human tragedy, and rather it may have been more tragic had the loss of life been spread among those kids who were getting robbed, as well as the robbers, isn't the issue IMO...the issue now seems to be that so many of you can accept the resolution of this incident as a satisfactory result of a robbery gone bad, yet all I see is a dead kid, a grieving mother of that kid and so many of you seeing this as a shortcut to justice.
Come on, you guys. Is this the society you REALLY want- where the perps in these incidents are hung in a town square for seven days to serve as a warning to potential criminals out there? Do you really want our society to become that Draconian? I'm sorry, and I'm sure I'll be squelched by dozens more of you and have to mail out even more "I'm An Efluff'n Squelcher" T-Shirts, but I can't feel good about this incident. I'm just sickened that so many of you can find cause for celebration over the violent death of ANY human being. Sorry, but I hold life to be sacred. I feel sorry for those of you who don't.
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No one feels good about having to take a life.But I'm having a hard time understanding your viewpoint.They were committing a felony,using a weapon to commit a crime.
Maybe they wouldn't have used it...no one can truly say.
But this is the harsh reality of a situation like that-ANYTIME a weapon is pointed at you or someone else by someone committing a crime,you MUST assume they are willing to use it.To assume otherwise is nothing but foolish.
I've never had to fire my Beretta at anything but a target...but in that man's situation,there is no way I'd bet my life that he wouldn't pull the trigger.
And that is the risk they took when they decided to commit robbery with a lethal weapon.
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What I see in this thread is Society's frustration with rampant crime, Lack of Respect or Justice for innocent victims, Skewed Legal Systems, as well as the inability of Government and Law enforcement in Bringing Perp's to Justice.
Ordinary People are going to respond in a seemingly callous way towards those commiting crimes, if only because we are all looking for a change and appropriate justice.
Far too often the innocent die, and worse, the guilty too often recommit further crimes.
With every criminals death, you WILL see a percentage of people looking at this as a victory for justice.
Nevermind Race, Gender, Age, or Nationality. We all want justice, and if that means a couple of kids paid the ultimate price for commiting a violent crime, Then so be it.
I now return you to your regularily schedueled thread.
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Man, put down the bong. This is not a human tragedy, it's the death of an armed robber. Shooting a man who is pointing a rifle at you (or a member of your family) does not a draconian public execution make.
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Originally posted by Fatty
Man, put down the bong. This is not a human tragedy, it's the death of an armed robber. Shooting a man who is pointing a rifle at you (or a member of your family) does not a draconian public execution make.
Fatty, you're right- it's the death of someone who engaged in a risky behavior and reaped a result of that behavior that none of us (including him) can be surprised at. What IS Draconian, IMO, is the attitude of some of us here on the BBs have regarding this...uh..well, if you don't want to call it a "tragedy," how bout we call it an unfortunate incident? Please, tho, let's not call this "justice."
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He deserved it. He deserved it. He deserved it.
You have no idea what drove these young men to do something this stupid.
He deserved it. He deserved it. He deserved it.
So what!? You all still can't see the truth staring you in the face.
The death of anyone this young is a tragedy. Whether he deserved it or not.
The fact that the Father did what he felt he had to do does not diminish the tragedy. The fact that anyone would dance on the grave of this young man and celebrate his death is diminishing to all of us.
What if the perp was 10 yrs old? 11? 12? 13? when did it become OK for your sensibilities. At the arbitrary age of consent? 18? How young would he have to be before his death becomes tragic? I have kids well past that age and I will tell you, they were nowhere near done maturing at 18. Were any of you?
So before you jump on your hangin tree soap box please try to see the tragedy in the midst of a fathers heroics. It's there, just past the blood in your eye.
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Here's an article about the shooting that Saurdaukar mentioned.
http://www.mcall.com/news/yahoo/all-b1_2neighbormar21.story
Shoot a fleeing suspect that does not pose a direct danger to you or someone else and you will most likely get charged with a crime. What's worse is that this homeowner OPENED THE BASEMENT DOOR to confront the suspect, he never broke in. Shooting "until the threat is dead" might work in wartime, but it doesn't work when defending yourself against an unarmed man who is fleeing.
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What if the perp was 10 years old(and was shot while robbing someone at gunpoint)? Similarly, I would be pleased that the robbery did not succeed.
I have no idea what drove them to do something this stupid, on that you are correct. I don't care. Maybe it was to fund his secret laboratory research to cure cancer. Oh well.
I don't care about justice, revenge, or the race of anyone involved. I am happy that a robbery failed, and I am completely indifferent to the deaths that happened in the attempt.
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What more needs to be said?
He was responsible for his actions.
He was held accountable for those actions.
End.
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>What if the perp was 10 yrs old? 11? 12? 13?
That just means you don't have to lead'em as far.
Wab