Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Sabre on March 22, 2002, 12:48:50 AM
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"Never before...have so many owed so much to so few."
By popular demand, the CT is proud to present "The Battle of Britain." This is essentially a war of attrition, with the simplest of victory conditions...whichever side destroys more enemy aircraft over the course of the week wins! This will be determined by examining the tour stats and simply counting up the number of each aircraft type destroyed. We are providing each side the basic means to allow base capture, not as a determination of victory, but as a means to tactically influencing the battle. Because the field layouts make it impossible to prevent ground vehicle spawning, it won't be easy to capture contested bases. The normal v1.09 strat system will be disabled, as this terrain lacks the essential elements to make it run (trains and convoys). Field object rebuild time will be set to approximately 20 minutes, except for hangers which will remain at 15 minutes.
NOTE: PLANES WILL NOT BE ENABLED AT CAPTURED FIELDS. Thus, capturing enemy fields gives your side a refuel and re-arm point, but will not provide a jumping off point to continue your advance. Hence, capturing fields is mostly a case of denying the enemy a base of operation.
Radar: Dot-dar and bar-dar will be set to 50 miles, with radar detection altitude from 500 feet and up. Update rate will be once a minute.
Icons: CT normal (short)
Fuel-burn rate modifier: 1.3
Fleet re-spawn time: Two hours (so be careful with them!)
Order of Battle -
Great Britain
Bases: All bases and ports on the British Isles, three CV battle groups (CVBG)
Aircraft/vehicles: Spit-I, Hurricane-I, TBM (generic strike aircraft), C-47, M-8, M-3 available at all land bases. Hurricane-I, LVT(2), PT available from CVBG. PT available from ports.
Germany
Bases: All bases on continental Europe, plus one CVBG (no A/C enabled).
Aircraft/vehicles: Bf109E-4, Bf110C-4b, Ju88, C-47, M-8, M-3 available from all land bases. LVT(2) and PT available from CVBG.
Sabre
CT Team
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Who's this Bob guy?
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We are providing each side the basic means to allow base capture, not as a determination of victory, but as a means to tactically influencing the battle.
Or adapt MA strat to the CT, or worse, a SEA event.
Why?
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Don't you remember from Twin Peaks? Bob is the essence of pure evil...Creamo is just a wannabe. ;)
kbman
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sounds interesting :)
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Sounds Super Dilly Duper! :) WOW! S! WTG!
(I miss you more Funked, please stay away till everyone just learns their lesson in AH and you'll show them!
Then bicycle repairman leads a your a squad to victory with your name in his sig and dedicates a great victory in a CT fur-ball debacle ½ mile strat separation CV battle for you... oh....my) This event will happen, flags will fly, widow's will chant "Funky!"
Sniff...
:(
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Sounds cool Sabre, ought to be fun (Creamo notwithstanding :) )
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:rolleyes:
missed your destiny Creamo? should be a writer or something :D
please post more... it's good reading... really briliant :cool:
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I'll certainly be spending some time in the CT for this tour. Looks like it'll be a great deal of fun.
My regards,
Widewing
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CV groups enabled? :confused:
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Ya know what? It does sound very interesting. I will most likely check it out. I fear tho that the "shoot ourselves in the foot" mentality is oozing out of even this setup tho... I mean.... what is with the make fields useless so that the slow early war planes have to fly twice or maybe even three times as far to get to a fight thing??
BOB is probly the only "historical" setup that can be fun and have parity. The CT is the only place to really fly these planes right now... you guys got an opportunity. It has been handed to you on a silver platter.. Don't screw it up.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Ya know what? It does sound very interesting. I will most likely check it out. I fear tho that the "shoot ourselves in the foot" mentality is oozing out of even this setup tho... I mean.... what is with the make fields useless so that the slow early war planes have to fly twice or maybe even three times as far to get to a fight thing??
BOB is probly the only "historical" setup that can be fun and have parity. The CT is the only place to really fly these planes right now... you guys got an opportunity. It has been handed to you on a silver platter.. Don't screw it up.
lazs
Actually, it's not a silver platter. We have a BoB 128X128mile terrain that's being built right now, but isn't ready yet, so we're having to use this huge 512X terrain. Not quite practical and we know it. We hope this setup works on this big terrain, but the planes are shortlegged. We're doing what we can with what we got.
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Hehe, speaking of BOB...anyone remember CK beta (Wb's early beta) where someone would start shouting BOB,BOB,BOB,BOB! then we'd all meet at 2 fields with Spits and 109's...ahhh, the old days...:)
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Yeah, the island with the volcano to the south east was one field... I think like A7 was the other.. might of been A1 tho.
-SW
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Hehe, speaking of BOB...anyone remember CK beta (Wb's early beta) where someone would start shouting BOB,BOB,BOB,BOB! then we'd all meet at 2 fields with Spits and 109's...ahhh, the old days...:)
Rip your the first person to mention the mini Bob's in a looong time.
It was in the southeast corner of the ck map B23/B24 I believe. Usually put on by a fella named Paul Hinds.. Voss.
It started out spits/109s.. but then progressed to any plane each side choosed.
Was a spontanious thing that happened about 2 or 3 times a week.. Great fun!
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Mussst...... suscrrribe...... againnnn.........to.....AH... ..
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hblair... yes, it has been handed to you on a silver platter. You have the only (reasonable)place available to fly the early war planes. Early war planes have been added that everyone wants to fly and you have the only place to do it. All the time consuming details that you think you need are probly ones that will drive people away. You can take the opportunity to grow the Ct or.... to simply continue to shoot yourself in the foot. If you can't get numbers with this freebie then there is no hope for you guys.
wlfgang.. your phony tough guy routine is getting annoying. It will be fun to meet you. Not sure who you smacked last but I generaly don't take it that well.
lazs
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Probably and probably not. Be fair and realize you are speculating. I'd bet money your crystal ball isn't any better than anyone else's.
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You may want to add a bombs dropped on british bases component to more simulate the real thing and get those squareheads up in bombers :) Each bomb hit on a british base is worth...lets say .20 of a plane destroyed.
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I thought about that, Crash. The main drawback of course is that it invites milkrunning worse than making base captures the main objective. By making the objective a simple air-to-air contest, it insures the winners won against other live players. However, by weighting it as you suggest, it might be worth a try. Let me look at the log numbers and such. Good suggestion.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Originally posted by lazs2
All the time consuming details that you think you need are probly ones that will drive people away.
Yeah, details like shortening the amount of flying time to find a fight, huh? Lessee here, we shorten flying time and people won't come to the CT? Where do you stand? It changes week to week. Are you for or against quick combat? Make up your mind.
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shortening flight time is a no brainer. a kid could draw a map in 5 minutes that had closer fields. that is not "time consuming"...
Making it so that fields can be porked but not captured is a time consuming detail that will drive people away. These planes are slow. Glad we both agree that they need short distances to the fight. making any of the planes "perk" is a detail that will drive people away.. limiting the allready limited planeset is a time consuming detail... Simple think before you work on a "feature". Ask yourself if it will make it harder to get into the fight or if it will kill parity.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
shortening flight time is a no brainer. a kid could draw a map in 5 minutes that had closer fields. that is not "time consuming"...
Originally posted by lazs2
Simple think before you work on a "feature". Ask yourself if it will make it harder to get into the fight or if it will kill parity.
Originally posted by lazs2
yes, it has been handed to you on a silver platter.
Originally posted by lazs2
I fear tho that the "shoot ourselves in the foot" mentality is oozing out of even this setup tho...
10Bears, NUTTZ, Sabre, HBlair and the rest have really been putting forth the EFFORT to do something with the CT, while you merely sit back on your thumb and critique everything they do.
Your insulting remarks tend to taint any suggestions and ideas you put forth.
I've never met ya, but I've gotten the impression over the years that your basically a good guy. So I have to assume the snide remarks are really just "attention grabbers".
You should take a turn at setting up the arena, as this would certainly give you a clearer understanding of how much planning the CT Staff does trying to please everyone all the time.
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The fact that Lazs does'nt like parts of the setup is surely a sure indication that you have things pretty historically right and have a good setup. Don't let the CT turn into an arcade arena Lazs already has that in the MA.
Big to the CT crew my squad has started to use this arena more and more and it often takes preference over the MA even with low numbers (low numbers this weekend due to Sicily event). I had a blast last night with around 13 people in there taking up first a Spitfire Mk1 then a Hurricane Mk1 to intercept JU-88's attacking our coastal fields. I've waited a long time to fly early war (remember one of the early intervews HT did for SimHQ where we could submit questions? well mine was a "when?" for early war planes) Every week the CT crew turn out some great setups.
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This game will never be like RL, there will always be stealing feilds etc etc. Personly i think this new feature (more kills within a week wins) is a GREAT idea. Last CT i rember loging off with equal fields and the next day almost losing the war becuase there wasnt any one on the other team to attack. I can see how this might drive away people, but i think more people would leave BECAUSE of the field capturing (reading all about those strat potatos etc etc) but keep this feature IN the CT. It's kinda fun to shoot up a 165 MPH 109 with .303 cal :)
Peace
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Making it so that fields can be porked but not captured is a time consuming detail that will drive people away. These planes are slow. Glad we both agree that they need short distances to the fight. making any of the planes "perk" is a detail that will drive people away.. limiting the allready limited planeset is a time consuming detail... Simple think before you work on a "feature". Ask yourself if it will make it harder to get into the fight or if it will kill parity.
lazs
The whole point of this thread is to get feedback on the setup. The above quote is from today. The BoB has been up in the CT since Friday afternoon. I've got to assume you haven't bothered to check it out, or you'd know the following facts:
1) Fields ARE capture-able
2) NO, repeat, NO aircraft are perked
3) All aircraft and vehicles allowed to each side are enabled at all original bases, just not captured bases. That last part may seem gamey to some, but we're trying to present the Battle of Britain, not Operation Sealion.
In short, it seems to be what you're asking for. The one problem I'm trying to figure out how best to handle is radar. The map has a flaw with the placement (or lack of placement) with radar sites for the Axis. This gives them spotty radar coverage. Despite that, people seem to be finding the fight pretty quick. By the way, there's more to making a viable map, one that HTC will approve for use on their servers, then you understand. Try it. Try the CT, too. And make sure you read the MOTD before you launch. They you'll be fully informed before making posts in here.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Just my two cents worth here....
This setup has been the most fun I've had in AH in ages, I usually pop into the CT from time to time but lately since the BoB setup it's all I've been flying. The planeset match up against each other better than than anything else I can think of, pilot quality seems to determine more of the fights I've seen in there than the crate they're flying. The only thing I would like to see more of (and it's been mentioned above) is to give the LW some incentive to mount bomber raids on England. This might not be feasible with the #'s that are usually in the CT, I also have no idea how to work the scoring or what server options are available, so I'm content to ride off into the wild blue in my Emil and look for some spits to shoot at. :D
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...and Lazs didn't log any time in the CT arena. The guy who supported Rolling plane sets in WB's because his beloved early war aircraft were protected was unseen in the CT all week end. Poor Laz, maybe one day you can make your mind up how that universe revolves around you. :D
All, great week-end and great BOB set up, had some heart stopping missions from Hazed with JU88's over London, to Ghost in a low dog fight near the coast of France! Man, great week end in the CT. to all that were there!
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Looks like I picked the wrong weekend to quit sniffing glue:eek:.. er I mean reload my Puter;)
Will see yas in the BoB,:D
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"3) All aircraft and vehicles allowed to each side are enabled at all original bases, just not captured bases. That last part may seem gamey to some, but we're trying to present the Battle of Britain, not Operation Sealion. "
Does this mean that a field can be captured but it is then useless to either side? If that is the case then the only real effect of this "feature" is to lengthen the time it takes either side to get to a base/fight.
milino.. sorry you don't like what I say. Point is.. it is simply stating the obvious. What exactly about what I said do you find is wrong?
ripsnore... I have never been a realbig fan of RPS. I didn't mind it but I feel there are better ways to "protect my precious early war planes". You seem to have a little problem with the truth when it comes to me. My guess is that it extends to anything you find inconvienient.
I have had company all weekend so haven't gotton online at all except in the mornings. What have the numbers in the CT been like and how did the non capturable bases thing play out?
lazs
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This was the best SEA setup yet, leave it alone for a while. Numbers were good, there were good fights, and there was strat for those so inclined.
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...how did the non capturable bases thing play out?
Am I talking to myself here? Ah well. In any event, it didn't appear there were any successful base captures over the weekend. People were having to much fun doing air-to-air work, I guess:). I knew you'd take exception to number 3, Lazs, but you know what they say...two out of three ain't bad:D
Sabre
CT Staff
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I enjoy BoB arena very much!
creators! Except of one thing - please remove CV fleets from arena. Sailing CV fleets in Channel are nonsense in BoB and it brings some unhistorical actions (carrier operations near French coast/shelling French coast, planes hiding in ack cover over Channel etc) Also it should be more interesting to have dot radar only over England or near English coast, and only activity bars over Channel/France (for RAF). Perhaps it should be more motivating to concetrate on defending England than to chase cons deep over sea and enemy territory. Just thoughts to make BoB arena little more historic ;)
czpetr
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Czpetr: Unfortunately, the fleets are part of the terrain, and can't be removed by the CT Staff. I could disable flight, and disable gunners, but there's no way for me to disable player conning of the fleets themselves. I could jump them to a far corner of the map, but it wouldn't take long for someone to set them on a course to steam them back up the channel. So instead of spending the time and energy to try to keep them out of the way, I decided to make the part of the set up. Both sides have the means of sinking them. They also give the British some additional operating locations to make up for the dirth of RAF bases along the Dover coast.
As far as dar goes, I had originally intended to set it up in the manner you suggest. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your personal view of radar settings in the CT), this terrain was designed with odd placement of radar dishes. I'm still searching for the best setting, but as long as most people aren't complaining too loudly, I'll probably leave it alone. Thanks for the suggestions, tho.
Sabre
CT Staff
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30-40 when I was on, Lazs, and fights were engaged within five minutes of upping. It was fun.
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Originally posted by Sabre
Czpetr: Unfortunately, the fleets are part of the terrain, and can't be removed by the CT Staff. I could disable flight, and disable gunners, but there's no way for me to disable player conning of the fleets themselves. I could jump them to a far corner of the map, but it wouldn't take long for someone to set them on a course to steam them back up the channel. So instead of spending the time and energy to try to keep them out of the way, I decided to make the part of the set up. Both sides have the means of sinking them. They also give the British some additional operating locations to make up for the dirth of RAF bases along the Dover coast.
As far as dar goes, I had originally intended to set it up in the manner you suggest. Unfortunately (or fortunately, depending on your personal view of radar settings in the CT), this terrain was designed with odd placement of radar dishes. I'm still searching for the best setting, but as long as most people aren't complaining too loudly, I'll probably leave it alone. Thanks for the suggestions, tho.
Sabre
CT Staff
I have a few issues relating to the CT (BoB).
1) I realize that you have nothing to do with this, but I believe it should be mentioned. Bf 110C-4 cannot be modeled accurately. During the BoB, the 110s proved to be nearly useless, requiring escorts themselves to simply survive. However, in the CT, they are the dominating aircraft, and the only fighter with a positive K/D ratio, and significantly better than it should have.
2) What happened to the tripleA on the Task Forces? Wotan was clobbered at 22k! I was hit at 13k, and I was beyond visual range to boot! I could not see the Task Force, so how could they see me? What do we have here, radar ranging guns?? During the summer of 1940, the number and effectiveness of ship-borne tripleA was significantly less than on the Essex and Baltimore class ships currently in use. Furthermore, these guns are far more deadly in the CT than in the MA.
3) Why is it that the TBM is not available on the CVs? British carriers had the Swordfish and Blackburn Skua aboard.
These issues aside, I very much like the BoB setup.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, fly the 110C for a bit. The folks I saw flying them were very good in any other plane as well. I flew the 110 for a couple sorties, but could not gain advantage on the spits or the hurri's without an altitude advantage.
Just fly one for awhile. Not one sortie, for a few hours..you'll see what I mean.
109E is "King of assists" :)
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Originally posted by Widewing
1) I realize that you have nothing to do with this, but I believe it should be mentioned. Bf 110C-4 cannot be modeled accurately. During the BoB, the 110s proved to be nearly useless, requiring escorts themselves to simply survive. However, in the CT, they are the dominating aircraft, and the only fighter with a positive K/D ratio, and significantly better than it should have.
My regards,
Widewing
I know its a secondary issue and not the "all in all" about the CT but I gotta agree. Our 110 (both models) certainly seem a bit better than what I would have thought based on history.
I enjoyed this setup the other night. It was very refreshing.
Good show CT crew!
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I'm glad you're enjoying the set up, and good observations, Widewing. As you state, there's nothing I can do about (1). I can look at turning down heavy flak leathality, to make up for the fact that it's ahistoric. I'll check it when I get home tonight. As for (3), it was left out because, as a carrier-capable A/C, it is simply too superior to the British carrier-strike aircraft of the day. It was enabled on land to represent Bomber Command's capabilities (Wellington, Blenheim, etc), because the British had to have some strike capability, IMO. As I said above, the CV's are really only there to give the RAF some more fields to launch from, since I can't edit the terrain itself. There is a BoB terrain being built as we speak, which should lend itself better than the Europe terrain.
Sabre
CT Staff.
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Flew in the CT for a few last night and let me say this...
We need the ability to open the cockpit, stand up, and start throwing anything we can find in the cockpit at opponents. Gives me a whole new respect for the .50 caliber. That goes for the .303’s and the 7.9’s.
It was definitely attack of the cha-who-a-who-a’s last night. I’d of ejected my corpse into the enemy if had the ability ;).
to all, had some good fights.
Zippatuh
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Thank you kieran for the info.. short and too the point.
And sabre.... I don't understand you. What do you mean by "talking to yourself'? I read everything you wrote and it seemed a little evasive and unclear. Thank you for clearing up the base capture thing latter on tho. Why be evasive tho? You feel like you are talking to yourself and I feel like I am prying information out of you. You act like you are ashamed of some of your "features" or something.
lazs
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I came in for some BoB action. Got bf109. Saw fleet and 2 hurry at the fleet acks. Flew in, was killed by acks twice, logged off.
Interesing, what consideration forced CT CM's to put battle group in BoB setup? For me this one killed all the possible immersion in just 2 minutes.
Fariz
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I'm surprised. I was flying a Hurri and I was eating 110's like candy. All they can do is BnZ... avoid a couple times then I eat 'em. Personally, I didn't find the 110 a difficult adversary, just different.
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Flew in there for a few hours of Friday. Had fun. Planeset is great. That flak is a freakin killer though. I was instantly sent back to tower from 10-15k on 2 consecutive sorties. That was enough to make me log out.
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This setup is great fun, thanks!
Spent only a couple of hours so far, but it was very enjoyable so far. I chose to fly the 110 as my ride for the challenge of fighting in this historically difficult plane, and also thinking that most would be flying 109s. Boy was I wrong (about most being in 109s) :) I think it was Friday evening when Leviathn, Nath and several others were in 110s; and there were relatively fewer 109s. Climbed to about 10k and then hit the action in the channel. Without buds along, 110s are not easy to survive in, at least for me. The rear gunner helps only if the pursuers attack from hi over the rear quarter. I was having a hard time with the rear gunner because most of the RAF I encountered didn't attack from hi six (good for them, bad for me). Also, my stick has a permanent drift in it so if I go into any gunner position in the game the rudder axis drifts no matter how many times I re-calibrate in game or in Windoz.
Anyway, this setup seems to be pretty well balanced to me as far as I could see. I give a nod to the hurri pilots, who choose to fly the historically less famous of the two RAF fighters. Back to the fight in my Y-Wing, er 110 :)
mauser
:D
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Raub: I'm going to make an adjustment to the flak leathality.
Fariz: As noted in my above post, the CVGB's are part of the terrain. Short of manning the CT 24/7, so I can jump them back to never-never land everytime someone drives one too close to the channel, there's not a lot I can do about it.
Lazs: No evasivion intended. I'm proud of the set up, and it seems overall to be well received. I was merely pointing out that you seemed to miss it the first time when I said base capture was enabled. Sorry if it came out as sarcastic, but you just bring that out in me for some unfathomable reason :D. Still waiting to see you in the CT.
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I understand the problem you are having with the ships, only wish there were a way to eliminate them. Only part of the whole setup I didnt care for. The rest was great.
I spent most of the day monday playing in there, had some good fights against 109's and 110's. The ship thingy though will keep me out of there from now on. I found that bothered me more than anything and a lot more than I thought it would.
Perhaps if you could disable everything on all of them, excluding the AI then I wouldn't object as much. It started to feel gamey to me.
I applaude the effort and for the most part it is just fine as it is. When the ships came into it that is when it went downhill for me.
Having an enemy task group sit off the coast of your radar factory (which for the life of me I cannot understand why they put it near the shore) and keep it in rubble for what seemed like forever started to ruin the fun of it all for me.
I thought of this as a Air War, not Operation Sea Lion :)
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Salute Sabre! great setup!
I didnt find the 110's a problem, but those stingers on the JU88's are tough on my little hurri.
Salute all, great time this weekend!
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Well I for one have been flying both sides. Having a ball on either. Best sortie so far was 2 kills in a Ju-88 and dropped on strat targets.
Hazed
Then the next day the Mongrels rolled a 8 strong ju-88 raid that leveled a Allied field with all 8 planes safely landing back at base.
Followed that with a low 110 raid that got slaughtered as it aproached the coast of home.
The CT is exactly as it should be IMO! Great setup guys!
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great set up
to all envolved
i must say i wondered how well the ju88 would hold up against the 303,s of hurris and spits i was suprised to see that the ju88 has a fighting chance in this set up i have had 2 3kill sorties in this thing i did not know that it would out run a hurri (as long as the hurri is lower) i actually had to slow down last night to let a couple of hurris catch me so i could shoot them down.
the ju88 is my favorite plane to fly in this game and in this set up it puts on a pretty good show.
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Glad to see that I'm not the only one wishing HTC would give the CM's and the CT staff some way to make the extra fleets in the terrains temporarily disappear. I'm running into the same exact problem in the Invasion Sicily scenario, Sabre. The only thing you can do right now if make a way point as far away as possible and jump the TG there.
Btw Sabre, there is a new arena setting variable that allows you to control how many TG's a person can control. I think it's called "ShipCommandCount" or something like that. I haven't tried it out yet, but I believe that if you set this value to "0", then nobody can take control of the TG's except for you. Maybe this is how you can keep the TG's off to one side of the map after you jump them there.
I love the current BoB setup in the CT, it's the most fun I've ever had in the CT. :)
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Well...I couldn't stay away:)
The ship thingy would be nice to get rid of but too much fun can be had in there anyway.
Sabre, nice job you and your team did.