Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hristo on March 24, 2002, 01:00:42 PM
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This post is from someone who flies LW only and likes to fight against Allied only.
It was about time for Spit XIV to get introduced. In fact, it should have been here on the same day we got the Dora. Not to mention the introduction of 262. Spitdweebs deserve to have a faster plane and become a threat for a Dora pilot they should be. 262 will stay untouchable as with any prop plane introduction.
Now for perks. How is it fair to have Spit XIV perked and D-9 free ? Or a free P51D or Typhoon for that matter ? And what about all mighty free La 7 ?
Spit XIV should not be perked if D-9, G-10, P51, La7 and few others are free. Spit XIV is slower than all these planes down low, dives slower, is more fragile, cockpit visibility is average etc etc. What it has going for it is (possible) turn advantage, great climb and acceleration. Big deal ! It still has disadvantages and can be beaten with proper approach.
If a D-9 pilot ups in his plane, he has to have that Spit XIV warning ringing inside his head all the time. If we perk ther XIV, it would still be the milkrun fights vs 30-40 mph slower planes.
Personally, I want to vulch as many Spit XIVs as I can and then run away from them. How can I do it if they are all perked ?
P.S.
I am back
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"How is it fair to have Spit XIV perked and D-9 free ? Or a free P51D or Typhoon for that matter ? And what about all mighty free La 7 ? "
How is one related to the other? About the only thing those planes have in common is introduction dates in a war that ended over 50 years ago.
How is it fair to even suggest that the D-9 or Typhoon be perked, when the much more common Spit 9, Spit 5, and N1K2 are all free?
In the end you're left with two options--perk only the airplanes which otherwise mess up the game, or perk almost everything.
J_A_B
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In the end you're left with two options--perk only the airplanes which otherwise mess up the game, or perk almost everything.
Mess up who's game?
If I want to fly a Spit XIV and it's perked, that messes up my game.
If I want to fly a Spit I, and I run into any of the late war unperked planes, that messes up my game.
There is a far bigger performance difference between the Spit I, Zero, Hurricane, 202 etc and the Dora than there is between the Dora and the Spit XIV.
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I whole-heartedly agree with you Hristo. Everything I've read says that the Spit 14 was on a par with the D9, yet if the Spit 14 is perked then how can this be, especially when there are equally as good planes such as the P51D, La7 and the N1K2.
My main ride is the Typhoon so I doubt I will go over to the Spit 14 anyway but I think the RAF deserve a very capable late war plane that isn't perked. If I do fly the Spitfire then it is normally the Seafire.
Anyway, just my 2 pence worth....
Regards
NEXX
PS Thank you Hristo for posting a very UN-biased topic!
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It is simple, if planes unballance a plane set, it shall be perked. Dora do not unballance, Spit XIV will do.
Every more simple, make XIV unperked and guess what half of MA planes will be next day?
Fariz
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Jab, the relationship of the 190d, la7, p51 and the tiffie is their ability to dominate a fight. They all have the speed to engage and disengage cons at will, they control the fight.
I myself would be up for perking p51's, i see as many of these as i do spit 9's and the p51 is much more lethal than a spit9.
Last tour i shotdown 28 p51D's, i shotdown more p51's than i shotdown any other a/c in tour 25. I don't really have a problem with 190D's and la7's as they are less common than the p51.
The p51 has the performance, the numbers and the Number 1 reason for it to be perked- the p51D is not my main ride. <-this goes heavily into anyone's reasoning if something should be perked or not.
The way people are reacting to the spitXIV you would think it outrolls, outclimbs, outdives, outruns.......etc etc everything in our current planeset. It's only reasonable to allow it free first off all and then perk it if it gets out of hand.
it would be nice to fly an unperked spit in level terms with other late-war plane sin the arena.
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I think all planes under 20 Eny should be assinged a small perk value, for example:
La7 - 5 Perks
Niki - 6 Perks
Spit 9 - 8 perks
Dora - 6 Perks
Lets face it...there's maeby 10 people in the MA who use the Mossie/202/Spit and Hurri 1
Assigining a small perk vaule to low eny planes will help get the MA varied a bit more, and all the planes will get equal use... and it will also stop things like this: ( Keep in mind, this ISNT a squad of spits, just a bunch of spits who happen to be in the same place, at the same time)
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If AH was only 205s, 109G-6 and P47C, an unperked Spit XIV might ubalance the arena and mess up someone's game.
However, AH is Doras, P51s, F4Us, Lavochkins and Typhoons. Spit XIV would have to work pretty hard to mess up their day IMO. Of course, if the mentioned decided to make things easier for it and play towards XIVs strenghts, it is not XIV's fault.
I'd like to suggest an unperked Spit XIV and see how it goes. If it really becomes everyone's choice for fighter sweep, Jabo and intercept runs then we might consider perking it.
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I totally agree with JoeCrip here.
Did a quick check for my most kills and average top 4 would be something like this:
Spit 9
P-51
NIK2 (I always attack niki's first, I hate them! ;)) Actually NIK2 is quite rare compared to spits & p-51s.
LA-7
Spit is most common fighter now that I face in MA. I can imagine what it would be like if Spit 14 is non-perked, uh oh.
The principle that fighters should be perked by their introduction dates is wrong IMO. Usage usage and usage should be the way just like Fariz put it.
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Description
Manufacturer: Supermarine
Designation: Spitfire
Version: Mk XIV
Type: Fighter
Crew: Pilot
Specifications
Length: 32' 8" ( 9.96M)
Height: 2' 7" ( 0.79M)
Wignspan: 36' 10" ( 11.23M)
Max Weight: 10280.0lbs (4662.00Kg)
Propulsion
No. of Engines: 1
Powerplant: Rolls-Royce Griffon 65
Horsepower 2050 each
Performance
Max Speed: 448.00 Mph @ 22K
Ceiling: 44500.0 Ft (13563.0M)
-------------------------------------------------------------
F4U-4 Goes about that speed, (if not slower) at around 22k , and the f4u-4 is perked. The MA is already 30-40% Spits. If the Spit 14 came unperked, we might as well remove all the other planes, becasue people will only be flying the spit 14 :rolleyes:
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"Jab, the relationship of the 190d, la7, p51 and the tiffie is their ability to dominate a fight. They all have the speed to engage and disengage cons at will, they control the fight. "
That's the catch--this is only an advantage if you want to fly home and land your flights. If landing/RTB doesn't matter to you, then the ability to run away doesn't mean squat.
One view on the perk system is it needs to be used as little as possible; in other words it needs to be used only to keep a few planes in check so they don't end up accounting for 35 or 40% of total use. The fact that there's a lot of "hangar queens" doesn't bother me because they're "out of sight, out of mind".
Another viewpoint, like that of JoeCrip, would rather see the perk system used to make less-used planes more common. While I don't agree with him, his opinion is perfectly valid. He would prefer for all planes to see equal (or almost equal) usage.
In either case, you don't see me saying "perk the spit 14". I'm just providing a counter-argument for those insisting that it must be a free plane. I like the discussion :)
J_A_B
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I could have snapped shots of skies full of P-51s in just the same manner.
I dunno if I am for an unperked Spit XIV or not, but I do give kudos to Hristo for suggesting it.
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I like it when people applaud as ubiased an opion that happens to aggree with thier opinion...any other opinion is biased. what a crock...lol
If the XIV is a spit IX with the speed at alt of a Pony and the climb of a G10 it will have to be an expensive perk. In what regared it is less then that it will be perked less. If it is as effectice as a D9 it will not be perked...
all the rest is babble by people that dont want to even consider it might be perked.
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Originally posted by Vector
NIK2 (I always attack niki's first, I hate them! ;)) Actually NIK2 is quite rare compared to spits & p-51s.
LA-7
Spit is most common fighter now that I face in MA. I can imagine what it would be like if Spit 14 is non-perked, uh oh.
You gotta remember that there is only one N1K2 and 4 x Spitfires all with the same Icon label. The Spit 9 and Seafire do look pretty much the same unless you're very close, and the Spit I and Spit V also look very similar.
Nexx
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Maybe there would be a point to this discussion if there would actually BE an Spit XIV in AH... :rolleyes:
Till that time you just have to close your eyes, imagine and play with yerself thinking about one :D
Broesy
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For Broes...
(http://www.webtreatz.com/spit14_2.jpg)
P.S. Great to have you back Hristo!! :)
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Originally posted by thrila
Jab, the relationship of the 190d, la7, p51 and the tiffie is their ability to dominate a fight. They all have the speed to engage and disengage cons at will, they control the fight.
Add the Niki and you've just came up with a list of some of the easiest planes to shoot down in AH. Dominate the fight my ass, only the pilot can do that, not the plane.
Ack-Ack
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Easiest planes to shootdown? Last time you got shotdown you must have hit your head pretty hard.
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I like it when people applaud as ubiased an opion that happens to aggree with thier opinion...any other opinion is biased. what a crock...lol
Pongo, no need to be a jerk. I was in fact applauding the very fact Hristo is generally considered to be LW-biased, yet he called for an unperked adversary. You know, as in "I appreciate how he can view things from the other side?"
As for me, I don't know how I would feel about an unperked Spit XIV. Truth is, until I see how it is modeled here, I will not know. Does that suit your sensibilities? Criminy, I don't even fly Spits to any extent and you have me solidly in the camp...
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everyone who whines for perking planes, have thousands of perks so dodent matter, they can fly whatever. What about the new peeps that paid to fly em too?....so first thing should be all perks get reset then who would want to perk what?
GW:p
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In other threads I've said the same thing: Spitfire XIV unperked, at least til it shows to be dominating the arena.
I don't fly Spits much at all, as a matter of fact I stay out of them unless I just have to get in one.
But to perk it, or insist it be perked before it is even introduced, seems more than a little hypocritical IMO. Too many planes have remarkably similiar performance yet remain unperked. If you're a 109 or 190 fan, and your main ride is the 109G10 or the Dora, don't you want to know that your Spit adversary is in an equal ride, and not one 40-50 mph slower?
Give it a chance folks. Let HTC introduce it, let's see what effect it has on arena play, then let HTC decide whether or not it needs to be perked.
It's high time for this plane, it was second in the poll Pyro put out over a year ago, yet it was left out for the TA152, 190F8, F4U4, etc.....all of which finished quite a ways back in the voting.
Don't ruin it before it gets here.
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I usually don't get involved in these threads, but I have to say that Joe's idea doesn't sound like a bad one. The planes that are perked now are not unkillable, just slightly better than others in the arena at doing certain things. I've shot down F4U4's, Temp's, 234's, CHOG's, and 152's in a 205. Even got a 262 in a Dora yesterday. This just goes to show that SA is as big a factor as anything else. This being said, I believe there are a number of planes that should have perk values added to them, and the value should be lowered for the ones we have. Having a small cost for planes that have an enemy value of less than 20 would help even out the arena. Maybe 3-10 points. Say 3 for 20 points, 10 for 10 points, and increase the number as the enemy value goes down, perhaps exponentially. And no, I didn't do any mathematical function to come to these numbers, just a feel after spending many hours in the MA. As for the SpitXIV, perk it if the enemy value is lower than 20 when (if) it comes out, and adjust accordingly after several weeks of play. If the enemy value needs to be raised above 20, unperk it, if it needs to be lowererd below 20, perk it, below 10, perk it more. And btw, I'm just droolin' waitin for the thing:D
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Originally posted by Gwjr2
everyone who whines for perking planes, have thousands of perks so dodent matter, they can fly whatever. What about the new peeps that paid to fly em too?....so first thing should be all perks get reset then who would want to perk what?
GW:p
Lost all my fighter perks being disco'd and augering in that damned 262:p
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If you're a 109 or 190 fan, and your main ride is the 109G10 or the Dora, don't you want to know that your Spit adversary is in an equal ride, and not one 40-50 mph slower?
From my D9 jockey viewpoint, no i dont want an unperked spit XIV.
Why, its simple, there are already masses of spit IXs, and those spits are already such a tough opponent, that you often don't get the chance to set up a good fight.
And as it is in the MA now, a Spit XIV would nowhere being the equal of a D9 or G10, it would just be the most or 2d most used plane, and one you can only attack with good E advantage. Co-E and one reversal will give the XIV all advantages.
And with the incredible elevator authority AH spit show at the moment, even high speed fights and dive are no way for a D9 jockey.
In another thread it was shown that the D9 compresses to early and that it extremly losses elevator authority. As long as those things are not fixed, the XIV will dominated.
As a free ride, the XIV will dominated everything, with the exception of a low alt fight against an LA7.
And planes like D9, G10, 205 are used in so small numbers, why ruin the day of those few folks by giving the Spit hordes a free XIV.
And i can tell you, most of the NIKI pilots will change to the 14 too, why? Simple, now Spit IX and NIKI are very close in performance, but the XIV will have a huge edge over the NIKI, and when the NIKI pilots (not the dedicaded) will realize that there is that performance edge, they will use it.
As i see it, if the XIV will be unperked, this game dies for the dedicaded D9/G10 jockeys. Even now SA and patience have to be very high if you want to be successful, but when the XIV is introduced the average LW pilot will be so often on the wrong end of a hispano that he either switches to allied steel or will quit through frustration.
Edit: Btw i am just flying the D9 cause i am really addicted to that plane, especially how it looks. If i would just look at AH planes from the performance standpoint, i would fly LA7, P51D or Spit IX, but never really never a D9. My style of flying gives me exellent scores with my D9, but with this style of flying, i would get the same or even better scores with other planes. But as only D9 matters for me to change my ride is no choice. If we get a free Spit XIV i will have to run so often in the MA, that i can hardly be called fun and it will in short order lead to the canceling of my sub.
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Spit 14? Is it in already or what? Will it be soon? Who has said it will be? is it? *scratches head* haven't flown in MA for some time.
View would be as in other spits I guess, which it SUPERB! Acceleration, considering Spit 9 outaccelerates almost anything I doubt spit 14 will be worse, won't bleed E worse then 9 either I guess so will be able to keep up with anything. Climbs like a G10, cannons like all other Hispano planes.
It will be nice to see it but it WILL unbalance the arena if it is not perked.
Also, we all know that "on par with" in Historical terms doesn't matter at all, in any kind of way when it comes to AH.
Will be nice to see it though, perked.
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This is a repost of what I said in the Aircraft & Vehicles forum:
I think its clear, based on Spitfire Mk IX numbers, that an unperked Spitfire Mk XIV would quickly imbalance the MA. Because I feel that is clear, I think that it must be perked, even though it is my favorite aircraft.
The question that I have is, how much does it need to be perked at?
At 60-70 points I will only fly it very, very rarely as it won't be terribly fun and I simply don't have enough points to bankroll many of them. I believe that I am not nearly alone in this.
At 20-30 points it wouldn't hurt so badly to lose that I couldn't have fun with it. Once again, I feel that I am not alone in this position.
I personally think that all perk planes are too expensive, save the F4U-1C (which is also blessed with a non-perk icon and thus doesn't summon an instant gangbang to itself). The Me262 can kind of make do with its 200 point price simply because its performance is so far beyond anything elses, but even the Me262 costs too much in my opinion.
The Tempest and F4U-4 are particularly overpriced for their performance. The Ta152H-1 is too costly, but I do question how many would be flown even if the price were lowered to F4U-1C levels. There just doesn't seem to be much interest in that aircraft.
How often do you see P-51Ds, La-7s, Bf109G-10s, Fw190D-9s and Typhoons? How often do you see F4U-4s, Tempests and Ta152H-1s? In my case the answers would be: "Everytime I log on" and "Never".
Do these aircraft actually perform that much better that they should be so rare and be gangbanged whenever one does make an appearance?
I don't think so.
Do they need to be controled and limited in any way whatsoever?
I think they do, I just think that they are too controled right now
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Joecrip, i must be one of those 10 people that fly the mossie- 99 kills so far this tour:D I've also got 32 kills in thr hurri1 and 19 in the spit 1:p
Am i the only one who actually likes to fly the mossie? I've not actually seen another mossie while flying mine:( and would really like to have a fight with one, one of these days.
Oh and errr.....go spitXIV....w00t!
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Mommy !!! Mommy !!! People aren't flying the planes i want them to fly !!! Mommy !!!
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I like to hunt buffs and so far G-10 and Dora have been my favorites 'cause of speed and climb rate.
If HTC doesn't perk XIV my guess is I found a new tool for hunting buffs @ 32k and everything else too.
XIV will propably like a G-10 but which can turn too and have those nasty Hispano cannons. Buff pilots gonna find themselves in deep manure if XIV will be free :)
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Originally posted by fd ski
Mommy !!! Mommy !!! People aren't flying the planes i want them to fly !!! Mommy !!!
Don't worry kid; You'll grow up in 10-15 years.
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Staga,
Look at the screenshot of the Spit XIV in this thread. Note the icon over it.
The icon reads "SPIT14"
The Spit XIV isn't going to be free, it has a perk icon.
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XIV will propably like a G-10 but which can turn too and have those nasty Hispano cannons.
I think that pretty much sums up why the Spit14 should be perked :)
But just to be fair, I think Spit14 should have a non-perk "trial-period", so the perk values will be set according to what impact it had in the MA, and how it performs against other planes. If it indeed ruins the MA balance as foreseen, a bit heavy perk near Tempy range might be needed. If not, a light perk will do.
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Mommy mommy they are going to perk a spitfire mommy mommy.
I agree. introduce it unperked. Just so we can all get an idea why it is perked.
And get to let it be used enought to work out fm kinks.
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Originally posted by Kieran
Pongo, no need to be a jerk. I was in fact applauding the very fact Hristo is generally considered to be LW-biased, yet he called for an unperked adversary. You know, as in "I appreciate how he can view things from the other side?"
As for me, I don't know how I would feel about an unperked Spit XIV. Truth is, until I see how it is modeled here, I will not know. Does that suit your sensibilities? Criminy, I don't even fly Spits to any extent and you have me solidly in the camp...
"NEXX
PS Thank you Hristo for posting a very UN-biased topic!
"
Hristo is just saying what he wants to hear Kieran.. My post wasnt directed at you.
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perk this dont perk that u buncha winebag sissys. who said war was ever fair. u start perking your "dweeb" planes lets see which are the la7 spitty nik blah blah blah then you end up with a unperked plane set. out of the unperked plane set one stands out as better than the rest say like what would be the 205 now you babies would start wining about that. If you cant run with the big dogs stay off the porch.
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Sorry, my apologies. Following as closely on the heels of my original post, I assumed you meant me. S!
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Well said Slayer.
What a bunch of whining wooses. "I don't want the arena full of planes that can compete with my XXXXXXX.
You better give newbies some rides they can compete in. Or you won't have newbies, which translates into you won't have a AH in a year or so.
The present perk system is a travesty with I doubt that HT will do anything about. 60 points for a F4U-4??? Kee ripes, that puppy is a lo slow pig if a pilot screws up and gets to slow. And newbies will do that, and they will die, and they will go back to the NIKs and the Spit 9s.
The popularity of the Spits and NIKs and LA7s is due to the arena, not due to the plane set per se. To many furballs, in which you see planes low slow and turning. Thus planes like the Spit5, Spit9, and NIK shine. Perk those and you will see lots of Zekes and Spit1s or whatever else is good to defend a base that is being vulched.
The present strat has been created by HC, it is an UNREALISTIC bomb/vulch and attack bases. I leads to little quality dog fighting, rather it leads to a lot of arcade like furballing at bases and an emphasis on planes that shine in that type of furball.
A lot of fun but hardly realism. :D
Drastically reduce the price of perk rides, and you would see the plane mix improve, and also the fun. But certainly not the quality of the dogfighting experience.
AKEagle+
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Only thing I found of intrest in the whole thread...
Originally posted by Hristo
P.S.
I am back
Duly noted.
:D
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Hang has been circling for months watching for that...
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Originally posted by Gwjr2
everyone who whines for perking planes, have thousands of perks so dodent matter, they can fly whatever. What about the new peeps that paid to fly em too?....so first thing should be all perks get reset then who would want to perk what?
GW:p
No, just like the guys who have been here for ages, you are paying for the oppertunity to earn perks, not the perks themselves, it's just some folks have paid a lot more than others, over a longer time, and have accumulated more perk points.
It's as fair as it gets, do the time, pay the dues, reap the benefits.
Oh, and when we do get the Spit XIV, I too hope it isnt perked, or if it is, make it cheap, after all, it wasnt exactly an uncommon bird in the real thing.
Same thing goes for the 'there are too many spits!' whines....betya that's what more than a few of the German fliers of WWII thought too :) The thing was everywhere, in great numbers all up, through almost the entire course of WWII, it is only right that we should see a lot of them.
And that's coming from a 109 driver
Blue
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lol nobody has even flown the damn thing and all up in arms :)
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Well Said Kweassa, let me add to it though. Unperk ALL planes for 1 week or maybe even 1 tour *shrug*, see how much people fly each plane and perk them after that. Can leave the 262 out of it though, it is perked, should stay perked and has got a good perk price.
Ta152, Tempest, F4u-4 (can leave F4u1c out of it too) should all be tested free, see how much people really fly them.
I am willing to bet most people would still chose La7's, spits and nikis over those planes. First week everybody would fly em, then... many would go back to their normal rides.
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Spit XIV vs
109G (http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v109.htm)
190A (http://www.odyssey.dircon.co.uk/Spitfire14v190.htm)
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So far 3 most childish posts: FD Ski, Slayer and AKEagle.
Do your mothers know you're using their credit cards? :p
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Nice pageXjazz, I have the Spit 5 and Spit 9 vs 190 A3 in a book, nice to have it here too.
Doesn't say what 190 version it is though, it's not 40mph faster then a G10, not even the G10 that is the most common versions in books (426mph). If it was, the Spit would have a speed of almost 470mph.
With both aircraft flying at high cruising speed and then pulling up into a climb, the superior climb of the FW 190 is even more marked. When both aircraft are pulled up into a climb from a dive, the FW 190 draws away very rapidly and the pilot of the Spitfire has no hope of catching it.
Yha, like that'd ever happen in AH :)
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theres an idea use staga's moms credit card.
there this is more of a childish post
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About fighters ability to dictate a fight, dont forget that we have a 3D space, you can extend in the horizontal or in the vertical. And our actual D9 is unable to follow spits in the vertical at almost any altitude, and above 25k is unable to follow them in the horizontal (even SpitV is superior at hi alts). The primary advantage in real live, roll rate, is minimized in AH to a point where it is not more a clear 190 advantage over any plane.
After a lot of tests, Spit and D9 are equal in the dive, D9 is better keeping speed once leveled, but spit has much better control at hi speeds in the dive, where the D9 is shaking like mad with almost no elevator control. The advantage of SpitXIV will be much more noticeable. Personally I cant see both planes in the same leage except for top speed at level flight. Same is aplicable to P51 vs SpitXIV and even to UberTyphs. Against G10, vertical performance would be similar, but no way to compare them in hi speed control or weapons.
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LOL Wilbus, are your book refering to the secret project 190Z-99 ??? ;)
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190Zwilling 99? ;) *scratches head, I must be going mad*
That was actually taken from the webpage Zjazz posted, it is described in "Focke Wulf Fw 190 in Combat" that the A3 outzoomed and outclimbed the spit V with eas. in AH? *giggles*
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oh I forgot to examine these links. I suppose they are part of a comic magazine. Specially funny is the comparison between 190A and SpitIX:
Climb:During comparative climbs at various heights up to 23,000 feet [7012 metres], with both aircraft flying under maximum continuous climbing conditions, little difference was found between the two aircraft although on the whole the Spitfire was slightly better.
I suppose there is a bug in the heigh being it 2300 feet instead 23000 ;)
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MANDOBLE,
The text on those pages was taken from the ADFU Tactical trials. Keep in mind that it is almost certainly a plain vanilla Bf109G-6 and the Fw190A is probably an A-2 or A-3.
You may read the rest of the reports here:
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14pt.html
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/rb141weights.html
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/rb141handling.html
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14afdu.html
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Originally posted by Pongo
"NEXX
PS Thank you Hristo for posting a very UN-biased topic!
"
Hristo is just saying what he wants to hear Kieran.. My post wasnt directed at you.
Well I doubt I'd still fly the Spitfire 14 anyway.... I saluted Hristo because he's a Luftwaffe fan and to actually stick up for the RAF, imo, requires a . So sorry you're so stuck up your own rear end! :)
Nexx
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This is the most interesting thing I've seen in this thread.
Originally posted by Wilbus
Ta152, Tempest, F4u-4 (can leave F4u1c out of it too) should all be tested free, see how much people really fly them.
I am willing to bet most people would still chose La7's, spits and nikis over those planes. First week everybody would fly em, then... many would go back to their normal rides.
With the exception of the Tempest, that baby is a monster and should be perked. Ta152 and F4U-4 should at the very least be cheaper.
Spit XIV, IMO, if it doesn’t have some perk cost to it, then it will end up being the ride of choice. Have no problems with running it free though to see how it works out in the arena.
Zippatuh
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Originally posted by Replicant
Well I doubt I'd still fly the Spitfire 14 anyway.... I saluted Hristo because he's a Luftwaffe fan and to actually stick up for the RAF, imo, requires a . So sorry you're so stuck up your own rear end! :)
Nexx
But Nexx UN-biased doenst mean "agrees with me"
or "says something I like".
What you meant to say was "here is someone who disgrees with me normally...but he agrees with me this time so he is un-biased.
All the other times he was biased"
Which you will admit...makes you look like a biased stupid dweeb...
we wouldnt want that would we...
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I think the whole thing needs to be reworked. Some are perked and shouldn't be, other are vice versa. Why not have a War ERA plane availability based perk system. Vice the "we don't want to see just Spit XIVs". Late in the war, that would be realistic.
Why not have an HTC sponsored rotating war era. Don't disable any planes, but change the perked value proportionally from Historically sponsored year to year and rotate once per week or so.
In the early war era, the later planes cost tons of perkies and earn you less with kills.
But in the later years, they (Late era planes) get substantially cheaper and score better, but the early planes earn you tons of perkies.
I think you could get the best of both worlds.. and the balance of planes being flown should theoretically shift with the ERA if the perked values get properly weighted.
Everyone could fly what they want, assuming they have perkies, and the realism buffs would get "more realistic" fights. It might be something to consider....
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Nice one, Hristo.
Good to see a Sportsman.
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Replicant and Seeker, this thread is about Spit XIV, not about me ;).
Still, I am surprised by quite a few opponents to an unperked XIV. Could its reputation be overblown maybe ? I am sure it has weaknesses.
OK, consider perking it, but only if it is overused after being introduced as free.
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Well, I don't know how the Spit XIV will perform in AH. I have played 3 games that included the Spit XIV, Aces Over Europe, European Air War and WarBirds. In Aces Over Europe the Spit XIV was king and was only rivaled by the Fw190D-9 and Spit IX, but I don't put any stock in the FMs of Aces Over Europe. In EAW and WB the Spit XIV was good, but nothing special. In EAW the Spit IX was better, and the multiplayer sessions of EAW would inevitably be filled with Spit IXs. In WBs the Spit XIV just felt lackluster to me. It climber well, but that was the only strength I remember, and even then my friend's P-38 out climbed it.
In AH it may prove to be a truely perk-worthy monster.
We must defer, at least for the time being, to HTC as they are the only people who have any idea of how the AH Spit XIV will handle.
The existing perk planes, with the exception of the F4U-1C, I think are very over priced. We all agree that the Tempest is a monster, the best perk fighter other than the 262, that needs to be controled. What I disagree about is how monstrous the Tempest really is. I have encountered 5 in AH, I destroyed 3 of them. They don't perform that much better than the fighters that are already top dogs. Sure, it has an edge on the La-7 and P-51D, but not by very much at all. Certainly not by a comfortable margin. If that is where the Tempest stands, the best piston perk fighter, where does that leave the F4U-4 and Ta152H-1?
The question that must be asked in tandem is "How many perk points do people who wish to fly perk planes have on average?"
The fact that sombody like Laz who never flies perk planes has thousands upon thousands is irrelevant. Perk points don't affect Laz, his 1944 bird, the F4U-1D, is free. The same is true of dedicated, fly only the P-51D, Fw190D-9 and Bf109G-10 guys.
If the typical guy who is inclined to take a perk plane for a spin now and then, or when he feels like it, has thousands of points to burn, then there is no issue. If, however, most players only have tens or a few hundreds of perk points then the current prices are simply too expensive for the performance difference.
I see, on this BB, repeated statements by "so-and-so" that he has thousands of perk points and can fly whatever he wants and thinks that the perk prices should be raised to enforce the rarity of these "superplanes". I think those who make statements to that effect are making a logical fallacy, that because they can fly whatever they want so must everybody else be able too. Most often these guys have hundreds or thousands of posts on this BB. In short, they are the most dedicated and faithful AH player, probably the most skilled as well.
Surprisingly often though, I see posts by guys with only a few posts to this BB, sometimes their first post, about finally saving enough perk points for that Tempest, only to lose it taking off, or being gangbanged, sometimes discoed, and sometimes landing. I have a feeling that this is the thin voice of a "silent majority". Most subscribers don't post on this BB. The average K/D ratio is less than 1 and very few can bring home 2-3 F4U-1Cs per flight, I know that I very rarely even bring 1 home. Most often I get 1-2 perk points per flight.
I think that the prices should be more like this:
F4U-1C: 8
Ta152H-1: 12
F4U-4: 16
Ar234B: 20
Spitfire Mk XIV: 20 (guessing its performance)
Tempest Mk V: 24
Me262A: 100
If these prices were to fail to adequately control the populations of these aircraft, then they could be raised. I simply do not think these numbers indicate anwhere near imbalancing usage, these numbers indiacte absolutely transparent usage:
The Me 262 has 1083 kills and has been killed 196 times.
The Tempest has 781 kills and has been killed 181 times.
The F4U-4 has 308 kills and has been killed 176 times.
The Ta 152H has 408 kills and has been killed 203 times.
The Ar 234 has 62 kills and has been killed 175 times. (Admittedly this doesn't tell us anything about the numbers of Ar234s)
The other problem I have with the perk system is that it annouces to everybody when a perk plane, other than an F4U-1C, is in the area. The perk icons are the single biggest reason for the "gangbang the perk" syndrome. Some aircraft, the Me 262, Ar234 and Tempest, are unique, stand alone types and must bear individual icon names. Others, F4U-4, Spitfire Mk XIV and Ta152H-1 could easily bear the name of the base type. Maybe this is to equalize all perks, removing anonymity from the upgraded aircraft places them on the same desirability, or lack of desirability as the case may be, as those unique aircraft that must bear a "perk" icon due to their uniqueness.
At least lets not price them out of existance as they are now.
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I don't care what gets perked and what doesn't. All I want is for the god awfull perk icon giveway. You know the one that says "Im a perk, bring the hord over and come rape me without lube." Yes that one, get rid of it so they have to use visual aids to decide if your a perk or not. Hell Id go for getting rid of Icons all together, just give a colored dot to tell if tis enemy or freind.
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Karnak & Booky,
I like both of those ideas.... 200 pts for a 262 is extreme. Yes it dictates fights...yada yada yada... But 200 pts?!??! A 5pt ftr sortie is very respectable - so have great sorties 40 times to up your 262 so that when you disco you just want to say screw it and go play Diablo or some other simm....
As for the Perk Icons... Book makes a good point. Put the generic lables on the planes @ > 3K (at that close range, you can usally ID your target's model). Put an Friend or Foe IDer at 6K. Would add some value to doing your homework.
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Originally posted by Zippatuh
With the exception of the Tempest, that baby is a monster and should be perked.
Spit XIV does everything better than Tempest. edit: On a second thought maybe it's a bit more fragile and has lighter guns.
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It's a matter of opinion of course but... The plane set is now set so that late '42 to '44 planes have parity. I fly a -1a which is right in the middle. I can make life miserable for the very early war planes but in the "normal" mid war planeset I have a mediocre plane. the later war planes are superior as are a lot of my contemporaries but it's not that bad. Now add late war monsters...
"perk" planes... They are only tolerable because they are rare and stigmatized. By stigmatized I mean that you are pointed out as the wussy cheat that you are while in one. There are so few of em that people take great delight in ruining their day... They are even rewarded for it. If the sky was full of em then they would not be singled out and..... It would take away the stigma and make allow them the freedom to boom and zoom the lesser planes to death plus.... the more people flew em the more they would fly them properly. Face it... they are not as high in even K/D as they would and should be simply because people can't get enough practice in em... Add practice and take away the stigma and persecusion and you will be seeing these "uber 51's" dominating the arena.
And... Why give the better players a club to pound the lesser playhers with anyway? Better that we have a few free perk plane days at the end of every tour.
Oh...I personally feel that the -1c should be no more expensive than the P51d or D9.
lazs
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mora,
There is that whole "speed" thing that the Tempest does better than the Spitfire Mk XIV as well. You know, the Tempest's 385mph against the 360mph of the Spitfire.
Sure, the Spitfire can do 448mph at 27,000ft, but as we both know, low altitude performance is much more important in AH.
The Tempest also has better high speed handling, hell, the Spitfire XIV can't even maintain level flight at 450kts indicated airspeed. It rolls left no matter the trim or pilot, so said the Spit XIV pilot at the 2001 Con.
I don't know where the idea that the Spitfire Mk XIV is a Tempest on steroids came from, but a lot of people seem to think that and its wrong.
Laz,
What you say may be true in the arena that you'd build, but in an arena that has free P-51Ds, La-7s, Fw190D-9s and Bf109G-10s massively perked Tempests, F4U-4s, Ta-152H-1s and Spitfire Mk XIVs is silly. They are only marginally better than the free rides. They need to be controled, not eliminated.
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Karnak, I know that it's slower than Tempest down low but it more than makes up for it with its rate of climb. I am not saying what it's perk value should be but I dont think it should be considerably lower than Tempest, which is way overpriced now. The prices you suggested sound good to me.
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All this thread, all problems, arguments and all frustations related with this thread and many more would be solved by simply eliminating the silly perk system of AH.
Bring a RPS to AH!!!!. The RPS is the fairest and democratic way to play, and undoubtely the most historically the MA can achieve.
AH have already a hangar that allows this in some way. A few more early war planes have to be added, but with the later inclusion of 109E, Spit I and Hurri I the stable is almost ready for it.
I know HT, "hates" the RPS as it is the game of the "comcurrence" but I think is the solution to most problems.
Most people in never use their perks, and the newbees or the ones who really like the perked planes cant afford to ride them.
Why do you bring Hurri I and 109E in one arena popullated by La7, P51D and Doras.
BRING RPS TO AH NOW!!!!!!.
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Good post Karnak.
But the current perk points seem to accomplish the aim.....
Like you said. the real issue is how Pyro and HT model the Spit XIV. Will be interesting to see.
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I liked RPS alot in WBs but it really aint the answer. Truth is the perk system would probably work well if pyro would fully impliment it.
Everything in the MA should have some perk value. The training arena is perk free as it should be. Folks need to GRADUATE to the perk arena.
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Originally posted by thrila
I myself would be up for perking p51's, i see as many of these as i do spit 9's and the p51 is much more lethal than a spit9.
...geez talk about selective memory!
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<<>> -Karnak
That's why I won't fly the F4U-4. I personally do not have the fighting skills to survive a gang-bang. And then there is the humiliation of losing 60 perk points and the factor of just how much time that personally takes me to accumulate. (I'm averaging less than 100 perks accumulation per month.) I think I could only affored to lose about 11 or 12 F4U-4s at that cost with my current perk point collection. But if the F4U-4's cost was something more like the 16 perks as you suggested, I might then actually start getting to learn her in the MA. However, in seeing the F4U-4's K/D ratio and knowing that most people who take a perk-plane fly it much more carefully with the goal of returning the plane to base, the score is not impressing me much at all and therefore I come to the conclusion that the F4U-4 would not be that deadly of an aircraft. Besides, everything else is ugly compared to the F4U-4, so I have an aesthetic argument for more of 'em in the MA as well!
Anyway, my personal vote would be for a rolling (or graduating) perk plane set beginning with each tour.