Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hangtime on July 05, 2000, 04:56:00 PM
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Hi all.. here's a synopsis of whats transpired to date..
Hristo has issued a challenge: I repeat, 8 vs 8 at least, SEA, no icons fight, 10 k merge, no diving into the merge ( (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)), anything goes after. Are those conditions acceptable ?
At first glance; aside from the altitude being somewhat low for a fight with this little monster, it seemed fine. I then went into the SEA last night and ran some 2 v 2's A5's vs P51's and came back with:
Hooooooly moly.
Just flew some practice P51D's against FWa5's in the SEA.. the A5 is fargin invisble aginst the terrain. The pony on the other hand; sticks out like a sore thumb.
"As it should be" you might say.. after all; the bright skinned allied A/C were that way to bring the LW to the fight, right??
Only thing is; when the allies did that they had a huge numerical superiority to the LW.. and was a key part of the strategy of bringing the tattered remmanants of the LW to battle so it could be eradicated.
So; that leaves us with an 8 v 8 duel where the LW has a significant advantage in aircraft climb, manuverbilty and visbility.
What can we do to even up the contest somewhat?? Wait for P51B's?? (a more historicly correct adversary for the FWa5's) Shall we turn icons on?? Or even the odds by using the historicly accurate numbers of at least 2 to 1.. ??
Certainly; as it stands, the way the graphics are rendered on a PC screen; what we have is not at all acceptable to produce a 'fair' fight.... both sides should be equally visable or invisble at the least.
Hristo's reasonable response:
Plane quality is decided by many factors, including camo scheme. I agree, US planes did not need to hide the way the Luftwaffe had to make their planes harder to spot.
However, it is a double edged sword. If it shines, it is an opportunist. If it doesn't, it is Luftwaffe
Or would you rather be flying camouflaged Spitfires ?
P 51D has some very important advantages over Fw 190A-5, but camo ain't one of them.
Let's leave no-icon rule, unless you all agree it should be changed.
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Ok.. so; here's where it stands.. I'm not charmed by the incredible advantage given the perfectly camoflaged a5's in a No Icon fight. It's far more effective on our flat 19" monitors than it was in real life.. and sadly, the pony shows up even better than it would in real life.
I'm wondering just WHAT 'important advantages' a pony actually has against an invisble FW that climbs, accels and turns better than, and has a better snap shot than a highly visable pony on the deck.
I'm not at all afraid of the fight.. I'm afraid you guys that have volunteered to fly ponies have NO idea how hard it's gonna be to stay saddled up on an a5 that literally dissapears as soon as it's below you.
So; I put it to you, the particpants, to decide on one of these four choices...
Accept the challenge as it is.
We wait for the P51B's to be released.
We turn the Icons on.
We ask for a Winter terrain set. (snow on the ground)
Before we get into merge alts; combat area definition; time limits, and other particulars of the ROE, etc; I think we oughta get the visibility issue settled first.
Participants.. how say you?
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/hangtime.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-05-2000).]
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Hmm.
Well, hangtime, I actually believe the pony is better than the a5, if you load it with 25% gas like you guys likely will in such a duel, 25% is more than enough to fight this fight probably.
But in the 190, 50-75% would be the required load. There is no turn advantage when the planes are thus configured.
I disagree with you, i believe 6 .50s are superior to 2 mausers.
The stang is faster.
The stang has better visibility over the nose.
Ok thats where the stang is better.
The wulfe climbs and accelerates better.
The wulfe rolls better.
The wulfe is equal in turn to pony (25% versus 50%) they have the same duration at these loadouts.
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Maybe you guys could try merging over the water. Go to A23 and head west for 5 minutes or to A8 and go east for 5 minutes. Voila, the blue water should negate any camo advantages. OTOH, this eliminates some of the fun of a scissoring fight on an uneven deck.
-- Todd/DMF
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I think the problem is that camo works too well due to graphics limitations.
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Fight over water would make 190s more visible.
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LOL Zig.. you were the one who demonstrated to me without question that the a5 will romp all over the P51 in a low turn fight. When I met up with you and your A5; I was less than 25% fuel; and you had enuff to make it home after the fight. Further definitive testing of the two planes revealed a significant turn advantage held by the A5 at 15k; and the lower the a5 fights the larger the advantage. And since the climb AND the turn rates, AND accel AND powerloading are superior in the a5; I'd say a visbility equaliser AT THE LEAST is in order.
Last night; I saddled up the A5 as the adversary and utterly flummoxed two very competent P51 drivers. Since I'd had a bit of time in the G10 I had the LW cannon ROF and trajectories nailed. All I needed was a little snapshot opportunity and *POOF* went the ponies. Time and again. Every time I ducked under them they lost me instantly. I could see them clearly no matter what their postion relative to the terrain was; I was invisble to them as soon as terrain got behind their view to me.
I reversed the roles; and same results... A5's cleaned my clock; and it was because I couldn't see them.
Let me be clear.. I'm not saying 'NO' to the fight.. I just want equal visbility to help offset the already significant advantages the A5 is bringing to the fight.
Salute Zigrat! (and that WAS a heluva fight.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/hangtime.jpg)
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-05-2000).]
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the no icon thing doesnt bother me as much as the hard ceiling before the merge. Climbing, reversing and merging at the hard ceiling gives the FW a large advantage on the initial merge, they will undoubtably exploit it and get above us right then and then keep climbing, after all the FW is at the alt it behaves best--10K, we need to be at 25K to be at home. Only superior team tactics can win this, providing the skill of the pilots on both sides are equal. Drag and bag. I flew in a similar duel with vadr and a bunch of other LW guys. We flew the 109K against the pony, ( daddy= leading it with several of the 4th FG guys). They basically cleaned our clocks, but they had the luxury of flying together daily and in WB's the 109K is a non turning beast of a climber (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Here the FW is alot more AC for the money (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I say give us 2K advantage or allow us a hard ceiling that is 2-3k above the merge alt would even it up on the merge a little. However, i doubt Hristo will go for it. He wants to enjoy the Energy advantage at merge.
(http://ww2.esn.net/~saved4sure/AMMO.jpg)
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Make them fly the 190a8 Hangtime. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Jihad
48th FG "Checkertails (http://members.tripod.com/checkertail/)
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Hang... sorry to say this but you are boring me a bit. I realy don't mind the ICON thing ON or OFF doesnt matter to me... and it should probably be on (you are right bout the camo in combination with the low resolution possible on pc screens). What I'm a bit bored with is the fact that you always play the 'Underdog'... saying how good the luftwobbles rides are in comparison to your pony. The way you do it you always win. If you lose the duel you can say that it's because of the German Iron being so good... if you win you get a pat on the back for defeating the sooooo superior german planes... shuckles (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) What you are doing is derating the German Iron flyers... If they win you can say its because the planes... if they lose you can even laugh harder cause they lost with 'superior' planes. (BTW not talking bout the hangvshristo duel... I realy respect you dueling that fight... cause in case of the G10 you are probably right... it's got much more acceleration and climbpower... but you defeat that and won 2 outa 3 S)
I mean come on... you are one Heck of a pilot and can beat me hands down... ACT LIKE IT... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I believe... individual pilot performance is going to be important... plane performance is going to play only a slight factor. The most important factor however will be wingtactics... (for example flying combatwing or welded wing, splitting elements when outnumbered, etc).
190A5 (at sealvl) (1942 plane)
topspeed : 327 mph
with WEP : 338 mph
Climbrate: 3200 feet/min
with WEP : 3900 feet/min
P51D (at sealvl) (1944 plane)
topspeed : 355 mph
with WEP : 369 mph
Climbrate: 3050 feet/min
with WEP : 3450 feet/min
You see the differences arent that big and will be smaller when the pony flies with 25% and the 190 with 50 or 75% fuel. Also these figures are at sealvl... from 10 K up the A5 will get increasingly worse in performance while your p51 will become better and better.
Even with these figures I say again pilot level and element level will decide who will win the duel... NOT PLANE PERFORMANCE!!
I'm sorry for ranting Hang... you know I respect you an awefull lot... and I realy believe you are a great pilot, maybe even the best in the pony... but I just got a little fed up...
Salute HANGTIME
Bee signing off
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Its simple guys....I have no fear regarding the FWa5...I just need to be able to see it to kill it!
Superior this and that is fine...just want to be able to see those seekin to put another hole in my head (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang is right...LW has a great ride...the only other plane I've flown in these sims, other than the 51, was a six month stint in a FW in WB. Great ride.
I strongly believe the 51 flown correctly will prevail...agree to simply turn on the lights and I'll be in the SEA in a New York Minute (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/rude.gif)
[This message has been edited by Rude (edited 07-05-2000).]
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Come on guys... lets pack up our 190s and go home.
These whoopee 51 wusses got a bad case of the curry-runs.
-vlkn- in
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I've said this 5 million times: no-icons is a bad idea, it doesn't work. Now 5 million and one.
ra
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As I said before... I dont care if the icons are on or off... that wasn't my point (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Seeya up guys
Bee
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BEE..
LOL... I fly the best plane that ever got a gun and a prop. Never doubted it. No pony pilot worth a damn does. 'If yah get killed flyin a P51; it wasn't the planes fault.' Sound familiar?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Your point is well taken.. tho I suspect you may be reacting to my comments meant to tease; not deride the LW's pilots or it's planes. I have great respect for all of you that fly LW iron.. and try my damndest to let you know how much I appreciate a good fight...
<S!> BEE. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Now; back to the issues. As far as visibility goes; we gotta problem. Can't get a kill if yah can't see what yer shootin at. No need for the LW to pack up the FW's and go home. Paint 'em silver. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Why are the LW guys tryin to hold ALL the cards? We're just tryin to get an even crack at these A5's, and with a 20k merge and Icons on, the LW STILL has the tactical advantage. Sheesh. I ain't interested in packin up and goin home; I just wanna fair fight!
Ammo's point is well taken; and the merge altitude is still very much in debate. Hristo offered 10; I countered with 20 and offered to settle for 15k. And, having just lost a duel to runnin outta gas; I don't think you'll catch me in the same position against the LW's best again. I; for one, will be packin more than a quarter tank. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) I don't think you guys need worry about us showin up light as feathers for a 8v8 match.
Now; it is said that you LW boys technicaly have the better plane for this kind of fight. Hristo certainly has no reservations regarding reminding us that the Luftwaffles have the better pilots, and that the allies are just opportunists. Under the current proposed ROE it's lookin like the LW is taking opportunist lessons. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Finally, I agree; pilot skills will be a deciding factor. This whole thread is aimed at making sure that pilot skills and aircraft ARE the big factors in this fight; not paintjobs and computer graphics.
Hang
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-05-2000).]
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Hang..
What Bee is saying is, he doesnt mind at all waiting for the P51-Ia or P51-B to be modled before the 8v8 happens (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
WTG Bee (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Reasons why I suggested no-icons are following:
Preventing opportunist approach. You do not have the chance to extend 5 miles and come back guns blazing because your flight computer puts HUD marks and range indicators. You have to stay close and personal.
No more shooting at 600-700 yards. Even though you will probably identify the plane IFF, you will not know how much lead you have to pull. Again, get close and personal.
Your flight computer doesn't show you E states and closures anymore. Develop your SA.
You can't just flat outrun enemy watching the range indicator from 652 yards and increasing. You should not see if enemy is closing or not. That would be my bigger complaint about AH realism : I have had P 51D pilots running flat from me, watching the range indicator slowly increasing: ...654...655...656...657. You think that's realistic ?
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This program, good as it is, and this technology, improved as it is, isn't currently suitable for "no icons".
To all those things Hristo said..yeah. Now try doing it blindfolded. Cause you just can't see those planes.
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Two cool dudes, two great pilots, and what looks like two great leaders!
<S> Hang & Hristo!
The RoE hacking is almost as fun as the fight.
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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id like to see p51's painted green ...when we find the mangled wreckage of hangs p51 I promise you ill get a brush out and paint it a nice olive drab (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
surely fighting over the water is the answer here...cant complain then.
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OK, would JV 44 Dora be visible enough for you ? If so, we should have it by the duel day (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
No more "it dissapears into the terrain complaints" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
190's big advantage is that it can roll out of sight. Once you roll to follow it will probably roll again and won't be where you expected it. Putting a neon sign over it will negate this ability. Is that fair ?
One of the most enojoyable fights I had in AH were iconless TA and SEA fights. Hard to explain to those that haven't tried them. Have you tried many vs many fights without icons in AH, Toad ?
In fact, I am ready to say that iconless fights in AH are the closest to the real thing as you can get on a PC.
Just ask Saw, Duckwing, Dingy or Citabria what they think of it.
Another thing:
Allied planes enjoy greater effective ranges of their guns: Hispanos and .50 cals are generally used at greater distances than MG 151/20 and MG 131.
For example, Hispano planes usually open fire at 500+ yards, while Mauser armed ones open at 300+ yards. Similar with .50 cal vs MG 131.
Yes, I know trajectory and so on.
But icons are a major factor here ! Without icons firing ranges are historical ! With icons they are not. As simple as that.
First identify, judge distance and lead, then fire. No more computer doing it all for you.
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use 190a8s they can be seen fine w/o icons
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This is the kind of threads I like... some thumping on the chest... some big words... some jokes... all friendly guys who love their ride and love the fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang... nice to see you take my comments for what they were... just joking words with a little flavour of competition in it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) hehehe I know you just love that sleak silver bird of yours (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) I know where you are coming from... During the non-icon fights in the SEA the pony and fork-tailed-devil where the easiest planes to spot...(I flew the spit... since in my first mission I was a casualty of friendly fire in my LA5fn... guess it looks a bit to much like a 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) On the other hand... with icons on you lose a bit of the thrill of the frantic checking of views after a 6 call on RW (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've seen some very good compromises to solve this... The best of course is wardogs suggestion (would love to see the mustang mkIII or a nice P51b) altho a bit unrealistic considering the tension and impatience for this duel (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (LETS START THIS DUEL!!!)
Maybe the best thing would be to fight it over sea... in that case the 190 would stand out more (altho not so much as the P51 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Hey... I'm still a luftwobble (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) It would also give us a chance to use SA more...
Another thing that we should consider... Without icons... I believe wing tactics wouldn't stand out as much... since if you lose your lead... chances are you will never find him again (No big HRISTO or HANGTIME icon above it). (pretty realistic if you read pilots accounts) Hristo is right that it's a whole different ballgame without the icons... alot more tension, alot more frantic screaming over RW (CHECK 6, ACHTUNG!, he's friendly NOOOOO not friendly... BREAK BREAK LOL)
I would like to end this rather boring piece of BeeBabble with an interesting story bout a non-icon fight I had (I've got it on film too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) I was flying a spit at 10 K and spotted a german plane below me (didn't see it but since it was firing tracer I knew something was down there). I decended... and came real real close for a perfect bounce... then suddenly I see tracers fly by and I break away... It was another 109 on my tail... amasingly it went after the other 109 (must have thought we where a winged pair (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)) So I chased after him quickly dispatching him (while he was firing away on his buddy)... I killed him and then got the other damaged (from friendly fire) 109 too... never laughed so hard (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
No matter what you guys decide... I don't mind but make it quick... I WANT TO DO THIS DUEL (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Salute both Allied and Axis pilots who want to do this thing
Bee
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Right Hristo (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Icon less flying in SEA was extremely realistic .. for example i made a bounce of a very cose together pair of FWs in a Pony .. scream in from their high 6, open up when my sight is filled by 1/2 FW, kill! The other rolls away and dives... i pull up and look where he went .. and NEVER found him again .. that much about visibility.. it IS very realistic tho (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
regarding the ROE.. why don't you guys don't define a combat area, and up from somewhere else, giving each side the chance to fly into the combat area as the please ? Sure it's not a duell merge but hey this is 8 vs. 8 it ain't no duell anyways.. And thinking about it .. there will be alot of confusion after the first clash when a lot of FWs dissapear in the ground clutter so having the alt advantage (if they get it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)) won't help the ponies all THAT much ..
DW6
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In REAL planes, within about 2 miles or so, once you've picked him up the first time, you're NOT going to lose sight because of camoflage paint. Just ain't gonna happen. Camoflage may help DELAY acquisition at long range, but has almost NO effect on close-in vis. How's that compare to what you see in a sim on a monitor? YMMV, but having a plane you're in close combat with "vanish" while still in your FOV isn't very realistic at all. (Which is not to say that if he manages to get out of your FOV and increase separation enough, you won't lose him).
Iconless fights have plusses and minuses, but they're not necessarily "more realistic."
--jedi
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Whats the whole purpose of this??
I. Is it a "duel" to see who are the better pilots?
II. Or is it the "my plane is (was in the war?) better than yours is?"
If your just dueling to see who is the better pilots then pick mutually agreeable rules and go from there.
But if its the second, the whole thing is a total setup. Its a stacked deck against the P-51's.
First off if your trying to simulate the "war" you either have the Luftwaffe fly the A8, or you don't use dueling rules.
You aren't dueling right? Your trying to prove which is the better aircraft, so why hobble the P-51 with artifical rules that limit its strengths, while playing to the strengths of the A5's.
The Spit IX is a hell of a dueling aircraft, but does that mean that if I had to place my life on the line I would choose the Spit over the P-51? Hell no.
And this don't even mention the ludicrousness of a "no icon" fight, where one side has ridiculously effective camoflague and the other stands out like a sore thumb. Yes your arguement that the icon system is too effective is right, but the "no icon" system is just as wrong, since our graphics don't even come close to conveying the information that you are able to see in real life.
If you want a real comparison of which was the "better plane", use a setup that simulates the real war.
No alt limits, planes setup however they wish and when the referee says "fights on" the two sides meet up in a designated grid square.
With the rules you guys are talking about right now, if I was the Pony driver I would just load up 75% fuel and let the Luftwaffe chase me around at 10,000 ft until they run out of gas. Boring, yes. But its about the only way I see of the P-51's winning this thing with the current rules set.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Verm I believe its a duel (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) You can try to simulate hundreds and hundreds of so called 'realistic enviroment encounters' and you still wont know which plane was the best (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Even if its a sort of simulation(which it's not) why should we be flying the heavy A8 buffhunter... tell me something more silly I mean IRL those guys were escorted by doras or 109's when hunting buffs. Now that's a real fair fight (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) Lets continue... a5 against pony... mmm 1942 against 1944 plane yeah ... very superior lufwobble plane we have here... If its G10 against Pony then I'm game for your no rules just fight setup... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As to no-icons... I stated that I dont mind flying with icons (as if thats more realistic... please) just saying (like so many others) that it's fun to do... gives a whole new 'kick' to it. Compromises like fighting over sea (where the 190 stands out too) were suggested... but IMO Icons or no icons dont matter
No pun intended verm... but you should read all threads before comin in and banging all over the place telling everybody how stupid we are... sigh
Bee
[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 07-06-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Have you tried many vs many fights without icons in AH, Toad ?
In fact, I am ready to say that iconless fights in AH are the closest to the real thing as you can get on a PC.
No, Hristo, I didn't. I flew iconless in AH a couple of times. I flew the WB HA quite a bit whenever there was other people in there.
IMHO, AH is presently less capabable of a usable iconless environment than WB was when I played that. In fact, to me, it it SO unlike RL that you won't find me there again until it improves. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
It certainly adds tension and it adds uncertainty and doubt...but mimic RL? Hardly.
While YOU may think this is "realistic", I don't think it's even close. Check Jedi's remarks above..there's another guy that flies for a living. He's absolutely right about camo paint.
This present environment doesn't mimic RL as much as it shows the problems that current technology has in trying to mimic RL.
I just spent the past few days flying around with other WW2 aircraft at an airshow. Because of the airshow rules, I once again could look at other aircraft at exactly KNOWN distances in flight.
So far, I've spent about two years of my life in the air. I spent a lot of that time looking out for other aircraft.
Tell me Hristo, upon what experience do you base your opinion?
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Here's my take, JG2 representing LW is 3-0 (not counting Libya scenario, winner ever declared there BTW?) in Scenario's, the few we've had...give them the advantage, they need it.
FW190-A8's would be eaten alive by P51D's, but if that's what they want, lets get it on.
Then, when we're done, we swap planes for Frame 2. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
~GeschwaderKommodore~I./JG2~Richthofen~[/i]
CLICK>> JG2 INFORMATION (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
Panzer Group Afrika~15th Panzer Division~[/i]
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
I spare no class or cult or creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe homage-I am Fear.
-------------General Patton
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Bee, I never once said you were stupid.
I just said that Hristo was obviously stacking the deck by setting up the rules to be advantageous to his side.
And then to top it all off, using the old playground tactic of "What are you scared?" to try and shame the other side into accepting the rules you want them too.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Verm, I am very supportive of no icons squad duels. Try them first and come back with impressions.
As for stacking the deck, you are right. But I'd fly the red-white JV 44 Dora there too, the real match for P 51D.
How about that lil beauty ?
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Whoa..
Lets keep a positive spin on this.. Hristo is doing what I would expect him to do.. get as good an enviornment as he possibly can; and I can't fault him for it.
I'm suggesting we get a level playing field; and for the most part; we all seem in agreement. Visbility is a massive problem and we all know it. I say Icons ON. 15k merge.
How say you Hristo?? A level playing field.. your A5's have better climb and manuverabilty and roll performance at those alts than a pony.. all the pony has is a speed edge. Not much use in a mele' fight; which is what we both want.
C'mon.. we can do this. So can you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Hang
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Hang, is that a 15k hard ceiling merge, or 15k merge? FYI, I could have everyone climb away from fight to 30k, dive to 600 IAS and level out at 15k...I will partake in any event where theirs a hard ceiling, I will not in one where someone says "15K merge'...
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i think icons are ok. and ill be flying lw. i would prefer if icons only had a range of 3k instead of 8k but thats ok, i dont think wecan change that.
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Rip,
Just tossing out an idea here...maybe a 15k merge with a "no faster than" speed limit at the merge? It could be different speeds for different aircraft, you could require filming for compliance.
IIRC, Hang was always slower at the merge than Hristo anyway, wasn't he?
Of course, then we could argue about "what speed?" too! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Zig...yah, wish HTC would play around with icons a bit. Or at least make them more configurable in the SEA. BTW, you still wanna do that cannon test?
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Toad, I think we should keep it to what a duel would be except of course with a hot-guns merge. In the dueling ladder, when the challenger says "15k", it means 15k HARD CEILING...
Just my opinion.
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If this is supposed to be Allied v Axis who's better? Why don't the allies give themselves a better chance and use spit 9's or yaks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
or this could happen (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
http://www.flightsimulator.de/b-17ii-part2/096.jpg (http://www.flightsimulator.de/b-17ii-part2/096.jpg)
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Well, Rip...then are you going to give them 45 minutes to climb to 15k, level off and acclerate to their max speed?
(http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Like I said, just a thought...
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Yes, Toad, I think that both should be at least a couple airfields apart, however I don't think it would take 45 min.
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 07-06-2000).]
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jmmcaul, I was thinking the same thing just a few minutes ago.
Or even if it is Luftwaffe vs US, then I would take a P-38, which matches up to a A5 much better than a P51 in a duel.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Why not level the playing field a little. Move the merge to 25K. That was the critical altitude of the B17 and it is the historic meeting point for these air battles. That way the camolflage won't come into play so quickly and the likelyhood of an immediate low speed turning fight is reduced. It gives both sides a chance to dive away or compress and it will give seperation for smaller engagements. Then reform and fight again.
15K is to low for historic rematch. Or at least stagger the alt's of various A/C. Maybe use P-47's at 25K, P-51's at 20K and F4U's or Spits at 15K. The Bf109G10 25K,
Fw-190A-8 at 20K and A5 at 15K.
Icons should be on. The resolution of a flight simm simply does not provide for iconless play at this point. Especially when it gives on side an advantage. Otherwise move it over the water where it gives neither side an advantage(unless you in an F4U).
By the way, if you haven't seen Nashes web site on this encounter you must. It is priceless. http://www.intergate.ca/personal/cwharton/intro.html (http://www.intergate.ca/personal/cwharton/intro.html)
Later
F4UDOA
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F4U, Luftwaffe misses some planes for your historical scenario, while US has all of them.
We still need the Dora, Me 410 and of course, the 262.
Icons on, you say ? 262 then (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Ouch.. we have an impasse then. I do not wish this discussion to degrade into an endless circle-jerk. We ask for a fair fight... no less. I am not trying to gain an adavantage.. just something close to tactical parity. I'm asking the LW to draw on it's skills; not on gambits that give them the upper hand in ALL tactical areas prior to the fight.
I will not lead troops to an iconless slaughter! That's out! Icons on; or my involvment ceases. (hang draws line in sand)
Next; Merge conditions.
Merge alts with a hard deck prior to merge again favor the LW... the one thing a pony can bring to the fight is speed. The LW is attempting to cancel the P51's only advantage in this duel by limiting speeds via pre-merge hard-decks. I say NO!
If the LW insists on a pre-merge hard deck that is the same as merge alts; then the merge alts will be MINUMUM 25k with a distance of at least 25 miles sep after merge alt is attained. I WILL NOT accept any rulings that limit the ponies speed prior to merge!! If they want a lower merge altitude, then dammit; they can remove the pre-merge hard-deck conditions. (second line in the sand)
Now; again; how say you LW?? And this time, stop dancing! Start negotiating! I am NOT discussing anything other than a A5 vs P51 match in this thread at this time.. combined element fights; multiple A/C type open combat, etc can and WILL be handled as seperate issues AFTER we get THIS one done!
Hang
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Hristo,
Do you have any good numbers on how many allied A/C were shot down by the 262 or 163?
I know the 262 was used as a Jabo primarily until late 1944. The problem with the Jet
is that they did not have an significant impact on the allies bomber or fighters enough to make the allies react.
The Bell YP-59 was flying in Jan.1944 but was never pressed into service because their was no need. Same for the F8F Bearcat, F4U-4 and P-47M. But none of these A/C were needed enough to push them into service one minute ahead of schedule. Where as the Germans were flying a Rocket plane that killed as many flying it as it did shooting. Remeber the
P-80 was in service by war's end also and in much greater numbers than the 262.
Basically I say yes to the Dora maybe to the 262 as long as it's numbers are proportional to there numbers in wartime. Say one Me-262 available for every 100 109's and 190's. The 163 even less frequently.
The Icons are not a historic problem. They are a computer resolution problem. I was chasing a Zero yesterday and he almost completely dissapeared into the terrain. I mean gone and I was 200yrds behind him. This was not a advantage. It was the Romulan cloaking machine. Anyway I'll be there even if we fly with bags on our heads.
See ya
F4UDOA
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I think 15k. both sides at their respective max speeds at the merge is fair. 25k is ridiculous. and IMHO icons are okay.
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Zigrat.. I think thats a reasonable compromise. Planes at max speed,
merge at 15k; Icons on. Will Hristo agree?
And thanks Zig.. I want this fight as much as u guys do. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Salute!
Hang
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F4UDOA,
How many C-Hogs were produced ? Surely less than 262s.
I remember some 1400 262s being producced.
P-80 in greater numbers than 262 ???! Weren't there some 40 or so P-80s by war end ? And how many by end of war in Europe ?
Face it. 262 in German sky in late 1944 and 1945 was the reality. Any Allied jet plane simply doesn't enter this category, it enters the what-if scenario category.
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Hang, I cannot speak in names of all Luftwaffe pilots that will participate in this duel. Personally, I can go with icons-on. Even though I might be able to see the outcome.
However, note that I don't consider Fw 190A-5 a match for P 51 in such a fight (with icons on, that is). Neither historical, neither in performance. It can defend itself allright, but to press fight, hmmmm.....
If we had the Dora, then it would be a different story.
Diving to the merge ? Historical ? Historically any side was able to dive to the merge. RoE are not historical either, but so aren't the icons. You can't have it all your way, you know.
Diving in faster plane on slower plane, with radar range finders and shooting aids ? So Luftwaffe starts on defensive, huh ? Is there anything else you need to win this one ?
Historically you should have enough fuel to return home few hundred miles away, since you will probably be fighting deep inside enemy territory. 190s, OTOH, should be able to land anywhere below them (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
As for no icons again, wouldn't it be nice to have SEA with icons eliminated, so no-icons fanatics can choose their place to fly ? I know where I'd be (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-07-2000).]
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kewl you mean we get the B29 then awesome 262 killer. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)hey when the uberspiter comes out i'll duel your 109 mank!
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Wouldn't that just prove your opportunist approach ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-07-2000).]
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Hang, I cannot speak in names of all Luftwaffe pilots that will participate in this duel. Personally, I can go with icons-on. Even though I might be able to see the outcome.
Great! I take it then you'll lead a team of superior LW A5 jockeys in a fight against our opportunist p51's? 15K merge, icons on; max speed, etc; etc?? We need a time and date.. I have proposed July 22nd or 23rd at 3pm eastern, giving you two weeks to recruit and train your experten. Is this acceptable?
However, note that I don't consider Fw 190A-5 a match for P 51 in such a fight (with icons on, that is). Neither historical, neither in performance. It can defend itself allright, but to press fight, hmmmm.....
LOL.. you mean that with the cloaking devices off; it's a fair fight?? Buck up; man.. yer still drivin the only plane in the sim that can roll faster than the system can display it.. lol.. it turns better; climbs better; accels better, it's better armed and of course; let us not forget that the LW has better pilots... surely; you are not concerned that our opportunist ponies will win the day??
If we had the Dora, then it would be a different story.
Maybe. maybe not. We don't know yet how THIS story's gonna come out! Tell you what. What ever the LW elite gets for a main ride; I'll fight yah in it. Any time.. lights on; of course and without chains to limit the aircrafts performance, anything within reason is possible. I look forward to the arrival of the Dora as much as you. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
But first; lets get THIS fight on.
I've heard from lots of folks that would like to have a Spit vs FW&109 fight.. as well as a mixed bag LW vs allies fight next after this one; regardless of results. The LW have any intrest in that?? Icons on of course; and a reasonable merge alt without speed or other hinderances to A/C performance would apply...
Back to you....
(http://www.geocities.com/tas13th/sqsig/hangtime.gif)
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 07-07-2000).]
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Hang, I can't give you any date yet. Our first training will be this Sunday, 3 PM GMT. All interested pilots please attend. Quite a few JG 2 members are going to show up.
We might form an 8 men team, along with reserves.
Fw 190A-5 vs Spits ? Oh, yes !!!! If there is plane A-5 fights the best, it is the Spit (of course, V and IX (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).
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(http://saintaw.tripod.com/hristo.gif)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 07-07-2000).]
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Hristo,
Where is your 8 man team with reserves? You need to e-mail me with your list or have the guys email me individually. I only have you down with 3 or so FW drivers.
Also, for both of you, I've made an active news area on the site. For announcements such as training times etc. I'll include the training time you mentioned Hristo, but in the future if you want something posted you will have to e-mail me.
These things sometimes get burried in the threads and it's hard for me to sift through and pull out the pertinent info. Having it displayed on the website ensures that any participant can go there and get the latest news, if they've missed or can't find something that was written here on the BBS.
Sounds like the ROE has been hashed out. Can someone let me know what the final status is?
All updating of the site will take place after 6pm Pacific (when I get home from work).
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Hristo,
The C hog is an unusual representation of the F4U in AH. It certainly was not the predominate varient of the A/C. But keep in mind that there were 1700 F4U-4 and -4B's(20mill cannon) built during WW2.
(http://www.vought.com/photos/images/1111_02.jpg) notice the pretty cannons and the date.
Also WW2 didn't end when Germany surrendered. It went on for a while longer. Just like after the Italians surrendered or turned around and faced the other direction whatever. There were P-80's in prodution before and after along with the P-51H and F8F Bearcat. My point is that the ME262 had no significant impact on the airwar in WW2. If it did you would have seen a far more urgent response IE the arrival of small numbers of jets A/C from the US along with updated versions of existing A/C. Case and point. There were no Aircraft carriers present during D-Day the largest Naval invasion in history. Why? because of absolutely no Lufwaffe A/C that could have taken off in any significant numbers to make a difference. So why model them to appear in A/H in any signicant numbers? The ME-163 Komet, V1 and V2 bombs were all weapons of desparation with no strategic significance to the war at all. The Me-262 was a superior design but was never a factor in the strategic planning of the war for the allies or the axis. Bonus plane yes, every day fighter??? No. Why punish the allies for winning without having to resort to flying prototypes?
Later
F4UDOA
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 07-07-2000).]
[This message has been edited by F4UDOA (edited 07-07-2000).]
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Wouldn't that just prove your opportunist approach ? LOL Histro you mean a 109 co-alt with 80 ias more than a 51 isn't the above.Cheers mate when uberspit comes I'll duel your 109 no probs and I'll be the one pulling back on stick and waiting for you to tail under me. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) UBERDUBER!!!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Hang shoulda tak'n 1/2 tank and kept climbing in the other direction till you ran outta gas.
LOL luv to see Ziggy and you duel, him in the P47....ops almost forgot <finger> to ziggy
Actually I'm really look'n forward to duel in equal ACs Hristo
[This message has been edited by Torque (edited 07-07-2000).]
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Hallo I just want to say something to the P51 and the FWa5 you can not compare these two aircrafts as already said , logically because of the time deference of design.
Naturally the developers of AH put the best US fighters in the game but what about the German FW190D9 brought into service in 1944 it is said that this plane was the best fighter of the war and you should not forget the Japanese Ki-84 Hayate brought into service in 1944 it was also as good as P51.
And well the P51 is not really American it's design and specifications and requirements were driven entirely by the RAF in the form of an order from the British Purchasing Commission.
Please I do not what to start a Country fight, just see it Historically. You can not say that a specific country had the best weaponry because weaponry lasts only for a couple of month or years, till some other country brings out something better and besides this everything has its down and up sides.
It is all a circle of technological evolution.
[This message has been edited by 112233 (edited 07-07-2000).]
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[This message has been edited by 112233 (edited 07-07-2000).]
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You can just barely see a B-26 in the ground clutter.
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
"So what do you post here? Poetic love letters?"
Ram