Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Pepe on September 16, 2001, 05:02:00 PM
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Again, same reason.
After chasing a 30K B-17 perfectly able to pinpoint any target in a G-10, not only the crew does not freeze, but the pilot is effectively able to dogfite with me. And perfectly able to manouver too. Just sick.
This Buff thing HAS TO change. It's unrealistic, It's gamey, It's got no place in anything near a sim.
I am talking only about myself, but 30k buffs are seriously taking my fun out of AH. Dunno the rest of you.
Cheers,
Pepe
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Pepe,
This might not help, but look at it this way.
If the guy in the B-17 at 30k were to fly P-38s or P-47s he could deliver 3-4 times as much ordinance. By spending all that time to climb up to 30k he is effectively taking himself out of the game.
I ignore bombers up that high.
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I hear ya Pepe!!!
Had a G10 and went after a B17! At 30K feet! With the lazer 50 cal on the B-17 it is very difficult to engage. Well U can engage but at a extreme disadvantage if ya want to 'Float" behind them. The fighter has a hard time getting a " prop bite" at 30K.
I dont think you'll see anything change. If someone takes the time to get a B17 to 30K feet, they deserve alittle break! :)
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Do what most people do...ignore bombers.
bowser
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Buffs suk
please remove them
except ju-88 looks to good to be removed......
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you guys are on crack.
all buffs are meat on the table if you dont drive up their 6 and sit their like a handsomehunk.
as for buffs not being able to maneuver?
there is a particlar B-24J that had to dogfight a fw190a after the 190 disabled the tail turret.
the b24 won
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Originally posted by Fester':
there is a particlar B-24J that had to dogfight a fw190a after the 190 disabled the tail turret.
the b24 won
And my name is John Wayne!
Oh Please, get real.
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"...as for buffs not being able to maneuver?
there is a particlar B-24J that had to dogfight a fw190a after the 190 disabled the tail turret. the b24 won...".
<sarcasm on>
Well if you say it happened at least once in RL, that's good enough for me. Bomber should win one on one with a figher.
<sarcasm off>
Can somebody explain again why bombers even need escort fighters? :)
bowser
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If I'm in a b-17 and you fly staight up my 6, you deserve to die... use some tactics, your not dealing with a fighter. I'm at serious disadvantage if you fly across several gun positions. Any other bomber, come up from below.
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buffs are easy kills no doudt they just suk....
the biggest dweeb draw in ah is buffs ......
they have too great an impact on gameplay.....
and again they suk
please get rid of umm
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With teamwork, tactics and patience buffs are easy kills. I think the buff guns are too strong but if you can learn to not give them a shot at you they are meat on the table.
Drive right up behind them and you deserve to get shot down. Quit whining about them and learn how to avoid their strengths and you will kill them a lot easier.
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Let me get this straight, a Buff dweeb manages to shoot you down because he
A) Was lucky
B) Was or good shot
C) You used poor tactics
D) All of the Above.
Since we don't have the buffs side of the story, we have to assume your huffy little post is how it happened, which rubs me as "I'm so good, if anything shoots me down, it should be removed from this game, or else I'll pout, whine and post more whiney posts"
Granted the B17 has some real issues, I will give you that. It can currently shot thru its own super structure and one position fires EVERY position by default. I've seen it from both as the pilot of a B17 as well as being in a P38 trying to engage one. I'm in awe how from a 90 degree deflection and 1.8k away, I can hit an aircraft once and send it spiraling down. In the P38, Im in awe an out of range shot can down 2 engines. But the P-38, and many other aircraft have issues in here (but gee, thank god the policy is to add more planes at the cost of fixing older ones)
But you lash out against the buffs with a broad brush. To that, I say, grow up.
[ 09-16-2001: Message edited by: LePaul ]
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Buffs are fine, if that player climbed to 30k, he took 35 mins or more to do so. While he did that 45 rooks/bish/knits flew 150 sorties against your base with perhaps 10 of them combined carrying 10 times the ord than the lone buff.
Lone strato buffs using laser sights with laser 50's are as realistic as your hopping in a fighter and CLIMBING UP TO ITS LO 6 ALONE
If that lone buff is attacking your HQ, well y bother? your dar will be down a little bit, and back up before he is half way home. As far as i am concerned the lone buff at 30 k deep in your territory is just a waste of time. If he wants to spend all that time attacking, make him spend all that time returning home. Ya shoot him down and he returns that much sooner!! +)
This is a game, most players feel the buff balance is good. Everytime I land on Park Place the bastids screw me bigtime!! I think the cost of landing on that square when a hotel is on it should be much less because it ruins the game!!!
If you don't like certain things about the game... you have 2 choices: 1. Quit and go find a game with fewer things that bug you. (even if u make your own it likely will never be perfect) 2. Don't put yourself in the situations that bug you.(don't waste your time climbin to that buff)
I pay for cable TV, that doesn't mean I have to watch shows I don't like...
SKurj
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Yep, wait till a 30k buff blows the fuel on most of your front line fields.
Or better yet, wait till they figure out that 6 b17s at 30k running all over the front line can screw all fuel...
Oh my, buffs at untouchable alts suddenly do seem something to be concerned about eh?
Guns? We still dont know if the guns are supercharged or if they have perfect convergence with all guns they can bring to bear (thanks to bug, nearly all of them!). Mix that with the frailty of the DModel in AH and you got 105mm equivalent hitting you at d1.4 (we know they got the range boost due to lag issues)!
I still dont understand how a buff can hit a 500mph diving & twisting con at d900 on its 11 or 1 oc lo and kill it with that single ping. But it happens.
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Well I just don't know about you pepe....I was the pilot of that 30k plus B-17....and by the way it was 27k!!! My gunner "Bandit1" caught you just sitting there off our right wing at 1.2k out...NOT A GOOD THING TO DO!!!after your four passes...you need to learn to fly...most pilots in AH shoot us down!! What was your problem...NEED TO PRACTICE THERE!!!! If this was true to life action I'd of had seven gunners as was the case with B-17's....we as buff pilots only get to carry ONE!!!! so it seems you've got the advantage,if you know what your doing....for myself and Bandit1 it was a fun mission....thanks!! <S>
Awake 92nd Bomber Group (H)
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Originally posted by Awake:
Well I just don't know about you pepe....I was the pilot of that 30k plus B-17....and by the way it was 27k!!! My gunner "Bandit1" caught you just sitting there off our right wing at 1.2k out...NOT A GOOD THING TO DO!!!after your four passes...you need to learn to fly...most pilots in AH shoot us down!! What was your problem...NEED TO PRACTICE THERE!!!! If this was true to life action I'd of had seven gunners as was the case with B-17's....we as buff pilots only get to carry ONE!!!! so it seems you've got the advantage,if you know what your doing....for myself and Bandit1 it was a fun mission....thanks!! <S>
Awake 92nd Bomber Group (H)
If this was "true-to-life action" you'd have been in a formation of other B-17s while planes that could take more than a snapshot of .50s tore through your formation. Also, sure, you'd have 7 gunners on the plane, each with 1 gun to fire, instead of your single gunner with 8 guns to fire.
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Awake,
Point by point. Your gunner took me when you did a hard right turn into me, as you tried couple times before. Not only you did not lose E, but, in fact, my G-10 lose more than you :rolleyes: breaking to maintain separation while I tried to climb to your 2 high. I won't discuss if it was 30 or 27k, it is exactly the same for this purpose. You want to be 27k? So be it.
Oh, yeah, 1.2k is a VERY DANGEROUS range :roolleyes:
As for your true to life point...well, I may well be needing some flight lessons, but you desperately need some reading. In a true to life situation, you will:
a) Be frozen, as you were flying with outside temperatures about -30 to -45 ºC for more than half an hour.
b) Not able to pinpoint anything with your bombs, so limited to carpet bombing. To put it simple, you drop and hope for the best.
Instead of that, in your "true to life" interpretation, you were:
a) Ready to manouver (outmanouver) a fighter :rolleyes:
b) All of your 7 gunners firing at me, even trough the solid surfaces of your buff :rolleyes:
c) Able to aim effectively all of your guns to a target 1.2k away :rolleyes:
d) Jink when you drop on target, not losing Norden lining, and able to drop your LGB's (sorry, I really meant Mavericks :D as long as I know, you need to maintain Laser marker on target for a LGB to hit)
e) In your "true to life" situation, not only you carried 7 gunners, but they were perfectly coordinated, convergence was perfectly set to meet the target, and they suffered no particular shaking something that waist gunners I'm pretty sure suffered a lot in RL environment.
Saying that I had the advantage is ludicrous. Oh, wait! What about if fighters in interdiction role take off with 6 AI buddies perfectly coordinated, aiming exactly where the leader is firing? :rolleyes:
I really appreciate your suggestion about my pilot abilities, I hope you have LOTS of fun missions in MA, and I hope you enjoy from a "true tu life" simulation. At least from my part, you will NEVER have fun shooting myself down from your 30k....errrm...sorry, It was 27k?, realistically modelled buff, in your realistically modelled environment, with your realistically behaving LONE gunner, fighting those evil fighters wich have tons of advantage of your poor little Buff whatever your "true to life situation" alt could be.
Jeez! I am outta MA for a long time. Too "realistic" for me....you're welcome. <S>
Pepe
101 Escuadrón de Combate Virtual
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Actually, there are players that do take care of their side and dont like to see their fellows blind for, make, two hours.
A couple of Lancasters at 30K over the HQ actally can destroy the fun for 50 players for 2 hours. The new maps make it easier with 4-5K take offs.
Make buffs stronger and their guns less lethal, less photon-laser-quakeish that is. Make the work tougher/longer for the fighter.
Its ok, its a good game and a game is usually plenty of bugs and mistakes (like the possibility of off-map flying, car bombing, 0.50 detracking tanks, invulnerable M3 and M16, 30K pinpoint bombing, instant 180deg reversal ... and so on).
Make AH better! :)
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WTG PEPE
Buffs are the most unbalancing thing in MA, Example:
a funny furball is on between 2 fields.
A lone buffs arrive at 25K: when you see it is too late to climb to, and if you reach him you'll be a victim of his laserguns.
The buff destroys hangars with his laserguided bombs in two passes.
There are no more fighter available to fly.
FUN IS OVER!
And about ded 6 attack: look how many bombers german pilots shot down from ded 6!
Back turret gunner was the first victim!
Then they closed up 50 meters and got the wings.
I agree with the point of giving buffs some advantage in MA, but now it seems too much to me.
Am not a whiner, I always attack them even this tour am flyig a ZEKE ene in desperate ded 6 if they are on target and climbing more means give them time to destroy everything.
It's too funny to shot down em but being shot down when you're diving on them at 400 mph or more with good deflection is really frustrating.
Bye
Fulmine
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I don't care if the guns stay the same. I know they ARE going to change in 1.08. I suspect, that if there is not an adjustment to them, then they will end up even stronger than they are now. I think HT will sort all of that out and keep it fair.
What I have a problem with is a B-17, or Lanc, performing a complete roll at 35k. Worse, I've seen rolling circles at 35k. That's ridiculous, and should be eliminated.
I can just imagine how useless a 262 is going to be. :rolleyes:
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I just hope I was the 1st to disgust you enough to log :p
Btw strato buff are just a proof of a GAMER attitude nothing more like the enormous quantity of M16 which spawn now :(
We don't have the proper tools to deal with it (F104 anyone ?) and why 2*1000 lbs bombs near a M16 (around 10/20 meters) can not kill it or at least disable it ?
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LOL @ Straffo
No, you were not :p. It was some 3/4 months ago, when another strato buff, this time at 35-37k killed me in a perfectly well set up attack in a Ta-152 (I was diving on his 2 oc, high, some 400kts. IAS). But I still remember that time in uterus terrain, when you spanked me good in your tiffie ;)
See ya in CT :)
Cheers,
Pepe
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<<Looking at the dead horse, shrugging, going away>>
[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: Fariz ]
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Hmm, do I even need to say anything here???
Buffs in AH are very poorly implemented at the moment, though honestly they arent as messed up currently as the M16/M3 antitank bombproof freakshows. Fix those first, then the buffs FM and most certainly the implementation and hit power of buff and GV "50cal" cannons.
Thats fair and reasonable post, no??
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damn...im glad I left now....sure get rid of buffs and add MORE N1K2's
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Dont forget that we have the ultimate standoff weapon against buffs: Gr1 rockets.
Instructions to use them efectively:
1 - deack an enemy field.
2 - Land on it and park near the end of a ruaway heading to the start point.
3 - Wait until somebody decides to take off with a buff.
4 - Fire the rockets. With a bit of luck the buff driver will be horrorized enough to crash in the takeoff.
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As far as I'm concerned, Buffs are fine the way they are. If someone wants to spend all the time to climb to 30k, then more power to 'em.
SOB
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I like buffs when I shoot them down in my new ride the 205.
I reallllly hate buffs when they shoot ME down in my new ride the 205.
My attitude changes depending on the outcome.
xBAT
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Originally posted by Pepe:
No, you were not :p.
Will try to be more efficient :D
;)
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so let me get this straight... It's ok for buffs to ruin everyones fun so long as they are brave enough and skilled enough to climb for 30 minutes??
Get rid of em for now until we can fix em. the bombs/sights need to be fixed so that accuracy is more like a square mile at 30k instead of a square foot. A B17 for instance should never be able to hit an aircraft carrier!
I knew the new guys would be pissed when they seen the only good fite on a map ruined by some attention starved, no talent buff dweeb. Buffs, ruin your fun if you let em live and no fun to kill...
lazs
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I need to bookmark this thread....its a "Who's who" of whiners! The only thing that could make it better is if Tac or Urchin would throw in a N1K whine.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by sling322:
this thread its a "Who's who" of whiners!
Better, a "Who's who" of whiners and cheerleaders as well :D
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Ban the Niki
This is called chumming
xBAT
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Well bomber guys, you heard the bomber's side of the story. Still going to defend him?
Sounds like Pepe was setting up proper passes, not climbing up his six. His major complaint, as it is of most fighters, is the bombers "turn fighting". You know something is wrong when a bomber is anxious to mix it up with a fighter because he knows most of the time he'll win.
Ignore bombers! :)
bowser
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Oh yeah...I'm a cheerleader.....goooooo team!!
:rolleyes:
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Hmmm...my 17 was on auto pilot level during the whole fight...and I was watching from an outside view...my gunner does'nt like it when I make turns when he's shooting :( All in all remember Its Just A Game! ;) next time I'll let you shoot me down...I don't mind :rolleyes: <S>
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Pepe, poor pilot,
I am afraid that you became one of the many victims of... the bandit...
See, this guy Bandit, being a squaddie of mine, has this serious habit of hitting every bloody bullet he fires from a B17. It wouldn't have mattered if Awake had made inverted loops, Bandit would have gunned you down drinking a beer and having a smoke. It's got nothing to do with you. Or buffs.
Peace :D
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Sigh
Same people, same old whines. Laz gets weepy if anyone bombs his base. God forbid those strat guys roll over his bases...
Bombers overmodeled....right. Perhaps the B-17, but the others?
Its just nice to know who the crybabies are. Some of you fighter guys have earned your kills and do so with class. Some of you find fault in everything except yourself.
Tac's been knocking my buffs out of the air all week, as has Wotan. I think I put a few dings in them in the process (but they'll never tell!). I enjoy the buff rides, and the fighter rides. But you do not see me calling for the banishment of the aircraft that shoot me down, do we?
Congratulations, Pepe, you might have just nudged Lazs off the top of the whiner list. :)
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face it lepaul (like le car?)..... buffs are tits on a boar in this game.. the only way you no talent lameos can get the attention you are starved for is if HTC gives you huge concessions in gameplay, flight model and gunnery/bomb accuracy..
Of course, once you have gotten all these concessions... You stand out like a sore thumb... you want all the attention that ruining the game for other players gives you but you don't want the animosity that the unfair advantages gets you. do you really expect people to be happy about it?
And that,regardless of what your mom says.... is why no one likes you. You just aren't any fun to play with.
lazs
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Looks like this is a big debate over keep buffs or remove them. Personally I think that anyone who wants buffs removed isn't skilled enough to take them down. Yes they are a bit messed up for now, but it will get fixed. And besides, this can't be called a WWII game or sim without bombers. You think it's gamey now? If we remove bombers and GV's just so the Golly-geened fighter jocks can furball all they want, this game will go to toejam. And if you think I am wrong, we'll see. I know for a fact that no one will go for the new strat items, like convoys and trains because they will be too busy furballing.
I am not telling anyone how to have fun or how someone should spend their $30, I am just putting an opinion in the big debate....
Oh, and Lazs. It appears to me that the bombers seem to only be ruining the fun of the fighter guys. What about the strat guys? Those who like hitting strategic targets and crippling the enemy? Your whine isn't valid, because you have pushed and pushed to get buffs removed so you can furball to your hearts content. Again, I am not telling you how to have fun, but leave us bomber pilots alone....
[ 09-17-2001: Message edited by: texace ]
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texace... couple of points... AH is $15 not 30.
And...I am sure that when convoys and trains are added that the fighter guys will enjoy straffing them.. You are not seriously suggesting that 17's and lanc's should be able to hit trains and convoys are u? Well... maybe you are... you seem to think it is fine that they hit ships and hangers and even gun emplacements.
And.....I would love to simply ignore buffs... many many people do but... They won't ignore the gameplay of the fighters. What could be more silly than buffs affecting the fighter war? That's what we have and it is the cause of the animosity.
lazs
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my best sortie against buffs was 7 b17s in a g10......
I kill buffs ...I do it hi lo ded 6 2
o'clock dont frikken matter........
They get lucky and kill me sometimes too but I get the better of umm most times.
I've seen lancs split esse i was almost out scissored by a b17 at 28k. the f3 rudder crap is just bs.
Anyone who has gone up against et in his 26 knows what Im talking about. While I have fun stalking him out it still is dumb.
(no offense et you still the toughest 26 pilot I've seen )
Buffs should have to drop thier whole load. No external zoom in out mode. You wanna check for bandits goto each gunner position. No guns firing thro the plane to hit ya. A different gunsite that requires you fly level (wbs? dunno but something like it). No carbombers. Strenghten all structures cvs buildings hanger etc......
If not get rid of ymm.......
the fact is they are dweeby as hell thier impact far out ways any benefit. Any fighter can do what a buff does. except level hq with 1 flight...... aint that KeWl......
buffs suk...........
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Originally posted by lazs1:
What could be more silly than buffs affecting the fighter war? That's what we have and it is the cause of the animosity.
lazs
Silly? Actually its just what happened 60 years ago.
IMO "goal" in MA is to grab enemy bases so you can win the reset. Best way to take a base is bomb all hangars down.
Maybe HTC could put up a furball-arena with three bases ,equipped only with fighters, close each other with indestructable hangars and no ack to hug.
That way furballers could have their pot of honey without annoying bombers :)
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Wotan you are the dweebiest buff pilot I have ever encountered. It is the hight of hipocrosy for you to be posting compaints about buffs.
(manuver killed by wotan in a ju88) sigh.
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WOTAN:no offense taken.I try to do the best I can with what the game gives me to do it with.I enjoy our meetings,win or lose.This thread started off with a reasonable complaint and has gone down hill from there.Buff drivers have now been called and I quote "attention starved,no talent buff dweebs" "gamers" and "no talent lameos".This by someone who does not post under his flying handle.Niki pilots get the same treatment.From what I read you are a certified "dweeb" if you go up to 30K.If you turn to avoid attack,if you take out hangers and fuel to help your country.if you spoil certain fighter pilots fun.This irks me a bit.Not every pilot in here wants to be a furballing hero,some jump into buffs to get something done to help their country in certain situations.A buff may kill a base and "spoil the furballers fun" but I doubt if the guys on their side mind it.In WW2,more than half the planes produced were bombers and in AH,more than 90% of the planes that up are fighters.Thats realism.The CA is more a furball arena than a place for bombers and I wonder why the dedicated furballers are not spending more time in there instead of the MA which seems to be more strategic in so far as you capture bases and win reset.As far as carpet bombing,there is no way,given the numbers to up a 500-1000 plane bomber flight so I think the bombing set up works good.Also,dropping a 500 lb bomb any where near a fuel tank or ammo bunker will pretty much take it out.As far as the name calling goes,I wish some people would think a little bit more before they do it.But then,it is very easy to hide behind a keyboard.
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Here Here ET!!
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Ok, first off..I'm relatively new, just subscribed a week or so ago. I've been flying a lot of buff's since I started, since I've found the fighters a bit challenging compared to some of the other sims I've played. And being able to take out a some hangars or whatever makes me feel like I'm contributing to my team.
I just want to say that I've been attacked from most angles, either in a B-17, B-26, and a Lancaster. Attacks from Below work best. If I see you anwhere else, especially to my 6'oclock there is a good chance I'll throw a wall o lead your way. But I've noticed some really crafty fighter guys who really know how to avoid the firing arcs of the guns. Secondly, I am not complaining about the gun power of the bombers, since a solo bombing run is more the norm in this game rather than 8 ship formations..
Plus, I'm glad there are inconsistancies, be they intentional or not historically realistic. It gives you something to work at, makes you better at what you are doing, if you are trying to kill buffs...getting hosed will make you all the wiser...that's my opinion. I certainly have learned from it.
Jack
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If ive told you once ive told you a thousand times......
B17 have fuel tanks in the wingtips.Shoot the wingtips.this allows you to approach the B17 in an off-angle (from fuselage and thus gunners) attack.
Some players will kick your bellybutton if they are good gunners no matter what you do.Ive been shot at 1.3 and lost an engine.Ive been shot in 500 mph dives.Just remember theres nothing more annoying than an immensly long flight only to die in some fighters first pass.Its also annoying to spend ages chasing a B17 only to be shot before you even get close.Horses for courses.DONT GET SO WORKED UP :D
I have to say however that IMHO the buffs should be made a lot tougher.but the guns should be made realistically effective.id rather have to perform several passes and get hits that dont take my damn wings off and have to hit b17s more in order to kill them.In the interest of gameplay i think shooting down a bomber should be a long affair but NOT an unrealistcally dangerous one like it is now.
fighter vs bomber SHOULD mean fighters advantage.
Bomber pilots demand that they should have an extra bonus to help them survive? well when i fly anything else in the game and meet a dangerous foe(eg me in a zero vs a p51d) I dont demand my zero has extra firepower, and if i did the game CEASES to be a simulation.
Ill live with AH as it is on bombers but i dont agree on how the are set up.
ps in WW2 LW inspectors of crashed B17s said on average 22 or more hits with 20mm cannon seemed to be the average.
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Just freekin' add some dispersion to the bombs dropped from high alt....hell, it took AW 10+ years to figure that one out :D
Maybe a better blast radius model also.
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Geez! Would you like some cheese to go with your whine, pepe? What are you, 18 going on 3? It is a game for god's sake! toejam happens in a game. otherwise, why play it? If no one shoots you down, where is the fun? If this was more true to life, you'd be out there defending our country from bin Laden. What would you do then, whine to the president that you were shot down? 'hi Mr. President, my name is pepe and I am mad because I was shot down while defending my country' President Bush: "well son, toejam happens." :D
Maybe you just need more time in the training room. ..... the potty training room. ;)
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A couple points:
1) I can live with less accuracy for the bombs if you let me crater the runways.
2) I have never shot down a fighter (while in a bomber) with one or two pings, it usually takes quite a few...maybe the fighters don't register them all (just a thought).
3) I completely agree with having more realistic bomb sight, it is silly to be able to bank and drop at the same time and have pinpoint accuracy, but I'll do it until it is fixed.
Anyway, don't take the strategy out of the game.
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Wotan you are the dweebiest buff pilot I have ever encountered. It is the hight of hipocrosy for you to be posting compaints about buffs.
(manuver killed by wotan in a ju88) sigh.
its a well known fact my dweebery knows no bounds.........
There is really np with buffs used in support of base capture outside the super accurate sight.
The other day when we had the uterous map I spent a good 30 min or so just killing low level lancasters and ju88s (under 5k) trying to milkrun a city. same guys I shot down 2 or 3 times each.
Numerous times I have been at fields under heavy attack and seen guys up buffs to ack star/carbomb.
I have seen 30k buffs more manuverable then most fighters. And lone lancs attack hqs just so some newbie can get on channel 1 and ha ha na nany bobo got your dar.
I am only saying that the impact a single buff has on "gameplay" far out ways anything a chog niki or titanium m16s have on the arena.
For the most part buff pilots are involved in strikes in which there is no thought to surviving. (atleast not by the way they attack)
You and I well know buffs will never be removed.
but given the amount of gameplay concensions (or atleast percieved concessions) I believe the impact of a single buff pilot has on "gameplay" is to much.
edit
ps pongo I'm not sure you understand that ju88s were more then just a classical "buff". They are/were quite manuverable......... I dont remember getting a kill in a ju88 in sometime but if you augered it was probrably due more to your flying then mine..........
[ 09-18-2001: Message edited by: Wotan ]
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Just freekin' add some dispersion to the bombs dropped from high alt....hell, it took AW 10+ years to figure that one out
Maybe a better blast radius model also.
I agree, there should be a penalty on hit accuracy in relation to altitude.
There are so many factors affecting the ballistics of a falling bomb. The longer the flight the more these factors will affect the accuracy. Now in AH it seems that time of flight of the bombs has no relation to hit accuracy at all.
The other ting is lateral movement during bombing. In AH it seems to have no relation to hit accuracy either. In fact the higher you are the more little lateral mavements during ballistic bombing will affect hit accuracy in real life.
Everybody is talking about the accuracy of the bomber guns as if it were controlled by a automated fire control system. Ofcourse we know that that is not the case. Everybody that has actually flown a bomber in AH and fired at incoming planes will know that it is the gunners ability of estimating the right lead angle while shooting that determines the succes of that engagement. It is also due to fighter pilots engagement flight path whether they are easy targets or not. Everybody that comes in on the bomber in a relative straight flightpath is due to be shot down. I've seen many do exactly that. Only few very good pilots are able to engage a bomber (or GV) and get away clean by the choise of there flightpath, but it is possible. In general I would say, the shorter the fighters exposure time the better, ofcourse this also limits the gunnery time of the fighter pilot and requires good aiming and leading from the fighter pilot.
Furthermore, it seems that changing the flightpath in more than one plane during the engagement by the fighter is very important (i.e. come in in a 3D flight path) rather than 2D).
I don't know if the gun simulation of the bombers guns is near to real ballistics or not (flight characteristics, end ballistics, max effective distance, dispersion, etc.), only HTC can answer that.
Last thing, it is not easy to get in front and higher of a bomber at 30k, but it is possible, it takes patience though. I've been flying parellel to bombers long time sometimes while grabbing (at a save distance). It sometimes took me 10 to 15 minutes to get in a good possition to start the engagement, but if you have enough fuel and the patience, you will get him down, ;)
This is from somebody that has been shot down many times by bombers, but also has killed more than double as much, :D
[ 09-18-2001: Message edited by: Apar1 ]
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Pepe:
In response to your statement that 30k Buff crews would freeze at 30,000 ft is not true. B17 and B24 crews wore electrically heated flight suits and wool lined bibs,coats and hats. The best operational altitude for the B17 is between 25 and 30,000 ft. Although they didn't usually fly at 30,000 ft, that's the way it was designed in the 1930's.
Secondly, the Norden bombsight was capable of putting bombs accurately on a target from that altitude. The sight computes release point based on ground speed, altitude and wind drift. In effect, it is a simple computer for dropping bombs. What it doesn't take into account is the velocity of the bomb as it falls, any updrafts, downdrafts,etc. Nor does it take into account the duds that were all to often dropped and didn't explode. All these factors lead to the bomb dispersion previously mentioned and that with bomber crews, getting most of their bombs within 1000 ft of the aiming point was considered a good mission. Granted that killing a hangar from 30k with one bomb (or a single stick of 3 or more) is a bit unrealistic; for effect of gameplay it probably represents an entire formation of bombers dropping bombs. One and two hundred bomber raids are not possible in AH so concessions need to be made to compensate.
Thirdly, 8 of the 13 fifties on a B17G are twin gun installations, manned by four individuals who can fire at most targets that come within the range of their weapons. the high rate of fire coupled with the number of weapons able to be brought to bear on a target therefore can be devastating to any single attacker. The optical sights on turrets of B17G's were of the lead computing type (late war 17's also had lead computing sights on the hand held fifties). Extended range was possible although I don't think many gunners would fire at more than 1000 yards if at that range. If the AH guns hit at d 1.3 or greater is because of the gunners ability to compensate for bullet drop. I know I can do it. I can't always hit at distances of 1.3 or greater but it is possible. As far as I know, the optical sights on the B17 were not the type that were installed on the B29; that is, computers compenstated for the bullet drop and extended range was the norm. God help you if the B29 comes to AH.
Luftwaffe gun camera footage of Fw190's attacking up the 5 or 6 o'clock position show the bombers ball turret with the guns pointed strait down. This indicates that the gunner has vacated his turret and that the tail gunner is most likely ded or wounded and cannot fire his weapons, or has bailed out. If the fortresses guns were manned and/or operable, then that gun camera footage would've burned up in the crash with the rest of the 190.
What I find unrealistic and needing to be corrected with the B17 guns is the range of azimuth that the guns can shoot through. The cone of fire on the tail guns is totally out of wack. Instead of a 60 degree cone of fire, the 17 here has close to 180 degree cone. I think that the elevation on the tail weapons is a bit off too, approximately the same amount. Same goes for the ball turret with the exception of azimuth. Ball turret guns could not elevate to a position above level. This needs to be addressed as well. These are (in my experience) the two most potent weapons on the AH model of the B17G, if attacking from anywhere in the rear hemisphere. In the front hemisphere, the chin turret and the two single hand held fifties and the top turret (and the ball turret)are the most potent weapons in Head on attacks. As it should be. I think that at least one of the fifties in the nose should be made inoperable in head on attacks. This is because the bombardier would fire the chin turrets twin fifties and the navigator would fire one of the two cheek guns, but not both at the same time. The hand held fifties also could not point straight forward. They were obliquely mounted to fire from approximately 9 o'clock to around 11 o'clock.
Corrections have to be made to the 17's guns and flight model as well. I don't think I've ever read an account of someone intentionally rolling a B17 (or unintentionally) without doing some kind of structural damage to the airframe. Many 17's went out of control, spun and rolled on the way down and were recovered at low altitude to fly home but were usually in the shops for major repairs for long periods of time or just scrapped.
On a related note, in today's world, if a pilot rolls a Learjet, it becomes immediately obvious when he lands the plane. (Pilots won't tell you everything they do) You can tell that the airplane has been rolled because the tail is bent to one side or the other.
EDO44
XO Flying Circus
member 91st BGMA "Ragged Irregulars"
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EDO43,
Thks for providing hard data.
Wiht regards to freezing at that alts, I stand corrected as I have no evidence on the opposite. Anyway, have you got any report with regards to their effectiveness in an unpresurized environment? And on the air pressure issue, crew's combat capability in this thin air (lack of oxygen) I guess would be severely handicapped. If you have any data on this I would appreciate as well :)
Second point: So current precission is plain wrong. With regards to the gameplay concession representing an entire formation, I would be OK with it, if my interceptor would represent an entire formation too.
Third point: In AH environment, you have All of the guns pointed at you exactly at convergence. That is impossible to achieve except computed firing systems and single gunner aiming all of them.
Fifth paragraph: ditto. Plus firing through solid surfaces.
Additional to previous points, I've read that while top speed of a B-17 was between 263 and 287 kts. @ 25k, 300 @ 30k using WEP, its cruising speed was approximately 150 kts. @ 25k. Not modelled, as you can go top speed all way in and back without having to respect cruising speed recommendations (i.e. consumption & possible overheating engines)
Anyway, nevermind. I've whined enough for a month. ;)
Cheers,
Pepe.
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staga.. the only war I am aware of that happened 60 years ago was WWII. In that war buffs did not affect the fighter war except... they were big fat helpless anoying targets for the LW who were forced to come up after them and then slaughtered by allied FIGHTERS..
ET... I post under the handle I fly under... it is at the bottom of every post I make. The "lazs1" is because the BB failed once and would not allow me my old handle again, saying it was allready being used. Whay on earth would I be "afraid" to use my handle?? I also do not whine about niks.. I usually defend peoples right to fly them. and...
The fields are far apart. When a good fite that is within reasonable range develops.... Most of the fighter pilots I know are pissed or bummed when our own attention starved, no talent buff weinie bombs the enemy fighter hangers and makes the field useless for everyone but the useless GV's.... If not for killshooter I would love to kill our own buffs. Face it... If you had realistic bomb and gun dispertion, you wouldn't fly em cause then everyone could AND WOULD, ignore you.
lazs
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"...I've been flying a lot of buff's since I started, since I've found the fighters a bit challenging compared to some of the other sims I've played. And being able to take out a some hangars or whatever makes me feel like I'm contributing to my team...".
Welcome to AH. Keep practicing and hopefully you'll someday be ready to graduate from bombers to real flying...in a fighter! :)
bowser
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DUELING ARENA 0/200
Lotsa room to furball without bomber interference.
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In my opinnion the biggest prob with bombers are the gunners toughness..
In real life it was the common practise to spray quickly the tailgunners etc. positions before killing the rest of the plane..
In Aces High it seems that the gunners are the last to die on a buff. Countless times I've made clear hits to the tail of a buff (be it .50, 20mm or 30mm) and 90% of the time tailgunner keeps on shooting untill the whole rear fuselage drops from the plane.
Fix this and I think much of the complaints with buffs will reduce.
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This thread, and it being night when I logged on, inspired me to take up a B17 last night, and see how it flew.
So I pointed it up, and went AFK until I got to 30k, then headed to the nearest base being furballed over...no one came up to shoot me.
So I flew on towards the Bishop's HQ...no one came up to shoot me.
So I turned south toward the Knight's HQ and climed to 35k, then went to make myself something to eat.
After awhile I started seeing nearly co-alt dots over the Knight-Bishop front. Surprised me, I'd never been that high in AH, and didn't know there was so much activity up there. But no one came to attack me.
Finally a higher P51 came along and I had absolutly no trouble pointing my nose at him and making him completely blow his pass. He didn't come back, just kept diving, diving, diving. I never fired a shot.
Eventually I was about out of gas, so I dived down into the furball. I was able to evade almost every attack for quite awhile, while being shot at by 2 P51s, a 190, and some other planes. I never shot back, just kept evading. Had I pilot-firing nose guns, I'd have pulled off the perfect rope-a-dope on a pony at one time. Not a single ping on me yet.
Finally a 190, I think, got in a good burst and I went down in flames.
My conclusion--the AH B17 flies just like the AW B17.
anRky
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Lazs1,I stand corrected on your handle having finally in my slow way figured it out.However I can not understand what puts you so much above others in this game that you have the right to call them any name that comes to mind.Your last post reflects some more of the same.If the buffs are overmodelled then I'm sure something will be done about it in time.If they need to stay the way they are for game play,then they will stay that way.I enjoy flying them so I guess I am a "an attention starved,no talent buff dweeb lameo".Why don't you spend more time in the CA arena which is more suited to furballs then the MA.The MA arena is set up to capture bases and eventually have one country win and reset the map.You say buffs spoil your fun but your fun is not every one else's fun.Try upping a buff when there is 170-180 guys in the arena and try to get to the target,bomb it and then rtb.Try shooting down an F4U,P51 or 190 which take 30-50 hits
and keep boring in to kill you.Are they overmodelled ? Probably,but thats the way the game is set up.Does flying these planes entitle them to be called any name that comes to mind ? No,it doesn't.
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Pepe:
Crew were required to wear oxygen masks over 10,000 ft or they would've succombed to hypoxia and death. At altitude, taking a glove off for any length of time resulted in frostbite and possible loss of the finger/hand. In the B17G's the waist guns are enclosed so not much of a windblast entered into the airplane. On earlier models, the waists and radio room were open when the guns were deployed.
The B17 had portable oxygen bottles as well, allowing the crew to be mobile if needed.
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ET.. the arena is set up to have a goal of capturing bases I suppose. I have no beef with that. I have a beef with one player being able to cause so much damage for so little skill and effort (I make the distinction between "effort" and time consumption ). Also.. I did not start namecalling with the first names that crossed my mind. I gave some thought to the names I was callingt so that they would reflect the buffers as accurately as possible.
Look... Fighters don't want to be "forced" to play as boring a game as the buffers seem to enjoy... we don't want to "cap" at 30K just in case some attention starved buffer wants to take out the fuel, radar or fighter hangers... Why don't we want to play the buffers game? Well...
It's NO FUN... Get it? It's no fun top cap and it's no fun to fight buffs even if you find one and the reward is simply.... You kill some buffer that was on a suicide mission anyway and will just do the same thing 20 minutes or so later anyway. Mostly tho... you fall victim to the unrealistic slaved buff guns. Most are so pissed that they won't even attack buffs under any circumstances. If I put 50 or 100 rounds in a buff fusalage there shouldn't be one gunner (or crew member for that matter) left alive to return fire. Mostly.... I see wingless 17's that i have swisscheesed firing from every position all the way to the ground. I see buffs firing THROUGH their own fusalage to get me... I see lone 17's come in over a furball and do nothing but drop the fighter hangers... I don't think anyone on either side appreciates this particular brand of "strat". Who does killing the "dar" help????? It's hard enough to find a fite with dar. I don't want the enemy to not have dar because then they don't come out to join the fite or.... they just log off.
To be honest... the way the game is set up right now... there is no place for buffs. Anything they do can be more fairly done with fighter/bombers in the CURRENT game.
lazs
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Thks EDO :)
Pepe
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And I guess its ok for the fighter jocks to vulch over bases when your having your "furball" fun? If all you want to do is dogfight fighters then I guess this arena is not for you!!! Find or start one where that's all you do....AW has one(no bombers allowed)and your right that all the guns should not fire at once but seems to me fighters can fire mg and cn at the same time....thats not fair play.....or lets just take out all guns on all planes and just try to ram each other!!!!but then I guess complaints of speed and turn rates would become an issue.....and we would be right back here again...once again kiddies...Its Just A GAME!!!!!!! :rolleyes:
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Actually it might be worth removing bombers from AH....just to shut lazs up.
Lazs, your crusade against bombers is really getting boring and you need to find some different adjectives to apply to bomber pilots to rekindle interest in your rantings.
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sunchaser.. I would rather you did it because you know I am right and are ashamed of flying buffs but will settle for... "just to shut lazs up".
awake... I believe that your post is one of the first that was directed at me that I ever felt was not worth responding in detail to. Not mean or sarcatic enough to be fun and too dimwitted to bother to correct. the anger was ok but ya gotta work on content.
lazs