Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Axis vs Allies => Topic started by: Furious on March 25, 2002, 02:43:10 PM
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DISCLAIMER: This is not ment as a derogatory towards you Lazs.
Why not let Lazs work in concert with the CT designers to set up a Lazs special no-fluffer, early war, furball arena.
Lazs picks the map, plane set, and all settings.
I'd fly it for a week. Might be real fun.
F.
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It would be very interesting to see how this would work out numbers wise. I think it would be good to give it a whirl.
Something with longer icons, more MA like radar, no field capture, and a small map. I'd fly it. :)
What planeset would you try? All Axis vs. Allied? PAC? BOB?
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Prediction: he will politely (yeah, right) decline, personality type shows he's not willing to risk taking on responsibility due to the fact that the possible end result of humiliation might outweigh the risk of responsibility. If you have more questions, I have a large book case full of psychology books predominently that of Maslow's theory, but I'm also partial to Pavlov as well. :D
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Furious (and community at large):
The CT Staff would be happy to consider set ups suggested by anyone in the community. However, please understand that HTC chose members for the CT staff to not only handle the administrative details like arena set up, but to exercise judgement to a certain extent on what goes up in the CT. That's why the interview process included such questions as "Tell me your ideas on what you think the CT should look like." Regardless of the source of a set up idea, the CT Staff ultimately must answer to HTC for both the successes and failures in the CT. As anyone who follows the posts here and in the General forums about what the CT should do and be, ideas range across the complete spectrum of possibilities. We also have certain guidlines (not many but a few) placed on us by Pyro that we must observe.
Having said all that, if Lazs or anyone else submits a detailed set up (terrain, field selections, aircraft/vehicle selections, and arena setings), we'd give it every consideration. Indeed, the Axis vs Allies set up and the current BoB offering is very directly the result of the wishes and suggestions of this community. It's easy to throw isolated ideas out like "make fields closer together" or "don't limit aircraft choices." Implementing those ideas with the existing terrains and CM tools (without requiring a 24/7 person to monitor the arena), while still offering a clearly different alternative to the MA is another.
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Man I had to take a piss test!
:)
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For color or content?
;)
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acuracy and distance.
NUTTZ
Originally posted by daddog
For color or content?
;)
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Volume, actually. ;)
Sabre
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LOL
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I would post this on the MAIN forum... i gota see what this guy says:)
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Ya Zeropoint, you could loathe in the animosity, while inputting nothing.
Psychologically profiling anyone here Smoozsnore would only lead to rebuttal, and as the receiving end of countless bashings of why you post the silly kung-fu bashings of 100 lb wife beaters and Jet Li “4 time guns were pulled on you” The One/ Matrix’ bullet dodging episodes, you would worry about someone with more mental recourses to point it out and continue to make you a BBS whipping boy.
Especially in laz2’s case concerning game play vs. CT, but I guess not.
Hard to make a CT game play suggestion while these simpletons are so eager to disount the entire issue . Good grief.
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>Hard to make a CT game play suggestion while these
>simpletons are so eager to disount the entire issue .
Creamo,
Do you think it is at all possible that some of the CT staff feel the same way about Laz's criticisms? Nothing agianst Laz in particular, but its always alot harder to step up to the plate to take a turn at bat than stand on the sidelines and talk about other people shooting themselves in the foot. Maybe after a spin in the barrel himself, he would couch his suggestions in a little more tact.
Just trying to see things from the other side of the fence. I myself don't much care for the CT either, but I have the utmost respect for the time and effort people like 10bears, Sabre, and HBlair have put into it.
regards,
Wab
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Maybe, and i guess me too, Wab.
Had the BOB been groundbreaking from the get go, in the sense where they focused on plane allotment per base somewhat historical , and making scoring targets rather than base capture, ANYTHING to change and elvolve away from the MA strat, I would feel more for their frustration.
However, it just seems to miss it's mark basing the strat on the MA while many other gameplay features are altered. Again. why?
Plus, you got HBlair the Preacher who just spouts off like a bible thumpin' militant anti-gay fool committing me to a "clinic" for my opinions, who has no business in a role of HTC's selected members to layout anything in alternate arena's for paying players. What a sappy joke he is. Who pick's these retards?
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Creamo, I take exception to your verbal bashing of HBlair. That's all I need to say about it, as most here know him and the kind of great guy he is.
As far as the current CT set up, it is all about attrition and nothing about base capture. If you'd read the write up on it you'd know that. The victory conditions are quite simple: The side that shoots down the most enemy planes wins. I asked Pyro to reset the tour stats for the beginning of this run just for this purpose, i.e. to try a set up that "gets away from the MA" as you put it. I have no way to limit the number of aircraft that can up in the arena, let alone from a single base. Again, if you'd do a little research you'd know that too. Groundbreaking? Little hard to do more than what the current tools allow, but we're all trying hard. I'm not in charge of writing the code, and neither is Hblair or Brady. Your vitriol is misdirected.
As has been pointed out, it's easier to throw out the odd suggestion here and there -- and criticise those who's job it is to wade through them all and find the ones most like to benefit the CT -- than to actually submit a complete write up on a CT tour. Lazs has not done so, though I give you my word of honor that if he does I will do my best to put aside my differences with him and give it an honest appraisal.
Regarding Lazs stance on base capture in the CT, he seems to be for it (at least that's what I gather from his post), not against it. So before you line yourself up with him, better make sure you know what it is you're making a stand for.
Sabre
P.S. Pyro picked the CT Staff, and I don't much care to be called a "retard" by someone who doesn't even know me. I have never used such derogatory terms about you, and expect the same curtesy in return.
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ok... first off, I have zero puter skills.
Addmitedly I believe that the "staff" is a little defensive and full of itself. and evasive.
I also believe that my ideas are not only simple to say but to implement. How tough is drawing the fields closer together say?
Now... what would I make? We are talking CT here? Allied vs axis? Ok, fine... the BOB planeset is one of the very few if not the only worthwhile (parity and choice) plane set for "historical" setups. That is a given.
The planeset was handed to you guys on a silver platter.
I would most likely set up a map with a 1/3 sector "channel" between "england" and the rest. fields would be about 1/2 or a little more from their oppossite number across the "channel".
fields would be destroyed but not captured (nod to strat guys) and when all fields but one were down the war would be over.
MA radar.
MA or slightly shorter icons.
No CV's until a6m2 and F4f are created.
this is how I would do a BOB in the CT using the CT guidlines od allied vs axis. I believe that it would be the simplest setup yet.
Questions?
lazs
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yes, one, would you accept MA dar with 1 min. dot dar updates?
Incidently, you can capture an enemy airfield but you cannot launch aircraft from that airfield (unless you hotfuel) as it stands now. Close to your 'kill but not capture' scenario.
Basically, 95% of what you mentioned is already there. Exception would be the CV part (I too would not like to see them)
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Yeah, most of what you mention there is already in the CT Lazs. Also, there is a smaller BoB map being built right now that we'll introduce before too long. Until you fly in the arena you won't know what we've got going. As far as being defensive, we just try to let you know why we make the decisions we do. For everything some people like, there's going to be others that don't like it.
Creamo, you really oughta leave that talk in the O'club, or email me. It doesn't benefit anyone to have that in here.
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I really like the idea of the bases being destroyed until reset. Maybe like a 24-48 hour down time.
I like it more the more I think about it. Bombs break things that take days, weeks or months to rebuild, not minutes. Blitzkreig baby. If possible set it so that 20-25 goony trips rebuilds a base, so the late night, bored, milkrun types can contribute.
Personal anomosity aside, I think it would greatly benefit the CT to have a vocal oppenent have a go at a set up. Work with him.
F.
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Evasive? Only when I’m flying defensively:). As far as being “full of” ourselves…well, those who are given the responsibility and granted the authority to make decisions are often viewed that way by those who aren’t. I don’t think starting the conversation with disparaging remarks is conducive to meaningful discourse, but I’ll try to get past it:D.
Lazs said:
ok... first off, I have zero puter skills.
No crime there. However, it might be a good idea to go through all the different arena settings available in the Set Up GUI. It would provide a better foundation for your participation in these discussions.
I also believe that my ideas are not only simple to say but to implement. How tough is drawing the fields closer together say?
Then do it. Draw it up on a piece of paper and post it here, and in the Terrain forum. I’m sure if you approached NUTTZ and politely requested his assistance, he could probably help. Of course the CM Terrain Team is already making a BoB map, but that’s for scenarios. It may or may not fit your image of what the BoB terrain should look like for CT play. Your statement, “How tough” could it be is salient. There are a lot of things to consider. First, how many fields and what types? How would you arrange them (i.e. how close together and where). How many ack at each field and what type? Will some be man-able? Will you include a VH at each? A radar dish? How many hangers/fuel tanks/ammo bunkers/barracks objects will each field type have? Will this notional terrain have convoys and trains for auto resupply? What hardness will you use on all these objects? What downtimes will you use for each type of object? All of these affect the arena game play dynamics, and must be built into the terrain. These factors will determine not only how hard it is to find a fight, but how quickly the map will reset. Will the map you designed allow a couple guys to get on-line at 2:00 AM and reset the fields by themselves? Remember as you design this map that you must work within the framework of the existing code. For example, downtime is currently built into the terrain itself, it cannot be changed on-line. There may be an upper limit to the downtimes allowed, by the way, so better find the answer to that while you’re researching the rest of this.
Now... what would I make? We are talking CT here? Allied vs axis? Ok, fine... the BOB planeset is one of the very few if not the only worthwhile (parity and choice) plane set for "historical" setups. That is a given.
The planeset was handed to you guys on a silver platter.
Be specific here please. List exactly the aircraft you’re talking about, and substitutions you’d make (if any), and tell us whether there would be any ground vehicles/pt boats/ships involved. Would all aircraft for each side be available at every airfield? Take the time to lay this out, so we don’t have to peruse through past scattered posts, please. I disagree with statement that the BoB planeset is the only viable one available, btw. And as popular as it is, most will get bored with it after a much shorter time than you may think. Just my opinion, of course.
I would most likely set up a map with a 1/3 sector "channel" between "england" and the rest. fields would be about 1/2 or a little more from their oppossite number across the "channel".
Would this terrain have the historically correct landmass shape? If so, your two closest opposing airfields might be 1/2 sector apart, but only those two. The rest will be farther and farther away as you move north and south from the Dover/Calais area. If it doesn’t at least resemble the actual shape of the geography, many will likely not approve of it. Remember: your choices need to appeal to the widest audience possible. That means those who want an immersive experience that goes beyond simply having the correct historical planeset. One half sector is rather close in my view, but you’re designing the map.
fields would be destroyed but not captured (nod to strat guys) and when all fields but one were down the war would be over.
This part has me confused, I’ll admit. This statement by you from the General Forum discussion of the current BoB set up,
I mean.... what is with the make fields useless so that the slow early war planes have to fly twice or maybe even three times as far to get to a fight thing??
Followed by,
Does this mean that a field can be captured but it is then useless to either side? If that is the case then the only real effect of this "feature" is to lengthen the time it takes either side to get to a base/fight.
led me to believe you wanted bases to be capture-able or indestructable in a BoB set up. As Rip points out, wouldn’t your idea to allow bases to be permanently put out of action (in the current set up, at least the original owners can get them back if they need to) work against the your goal of limiting flight times? Again, what about milk-running?
MA radar.
No problem here. The code allows it. However, what range for dots and bar-dar would you use? What altitude would radar coverage begin? In other words, would radar go right down to the ground/sea, or would you set a minimum altitude to allow NOE attacks? What update rate would you use? Yes, you could simply copy these from the MA, but is that what you really want? Be specific, and know what you’re asking for. You have to design a HQ into the terrain as far as I know. What hardness would you make it? People will try to destroy it, so think about that as you put your plan together.
MA or slightly shorter icons.
You only have two choices here, either long (MA) or short (CT/SEA). You don’t have the option to make it “slightly shorter.” Which would you use?
No CV's until a6m2 and F4f are created.
Fine, just don’t put them into your terrain. Would there be any ships at all? If so, don’t forget to add a port for each fleet.
this is how I would do a BOB in the CT using the CT guidlines od allied vs axis. I believe that it would be the simplest setup yet.
Not so simple, I hope you see. I’m not trying to discourage you, Lazs; just educate you. Every set up we run goes through this kind of analysis. In the case of terrains that we don’t have a hand in creating (most of them, by the way), we at least have to understand all of the above to determine if the terrain and set up will be viable in the CT environment.
Questions?
I’d say so. And all the questions above would need to be answered by you before HTC would likely approve you map for use in the CT, and before the CT Staff would agree to run the set up. Why do we have to agree? Because if it fails and drives people away, it will be our fault as much as yours. With authority comes responsibility.
Sabre
CT Staff
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savbre... ur first post was not evasive if compared to a speech given by a U.S. senator.
Now.. the planset was handed to yu and it doesn't look like you guys have gone as anal on it as you have on some of the other setups and..... it shows. your numbers are up. You claim that it is morelike what I would want and guess what? it is and.... people like it. U have the only viable place to fly early war planes.... that is a huge asset.
With only 5 or so fields all across from each other it is unlikely that say all there would ever be a case where there was not an active field directly across from another active field to get into the fight with.
all fields would have the standard ack and be "small" fields except for the center field in each country which would be a large field. When all your fields except one were destroyed you would "lose".
radar at each field no gv's (BOB after all).
Two kinds of icons? ok, MA ones then. Not a big deal tho in any case if the fights are close.
the fields are not resetable till the war is over.... as to milkrunning late at night? who cares? let the limp dicks do it if they enjoy that. An empty arena is useless no matter what the map.
lazs
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Ooookay, so what you’re saying is you approve of the current offering in the CT. And that means you think we’ve done a good job, right? Thanks! Hey look, we’ve converted Lazs to a CT supporter! Now, why didn’t you say so before, and why haven’t we seen you flying in the CT this week? I must confess, I find you very hard to follow at times. Must you be so vague and evasive (had to get that in… Lazs new buzz word, joining "anal" as regular features in any Lazs post)? To quote Indigo Montoya in "The Princess Bride," "You keep-a using dat word. I donnah think it-a means what you-a think it means." Anyway, pretty much everyone else seems to be clear on what I’ve said so, gosh, I don’t know why you’re having trouble. Yes, that was sarcasm…like I’ve always said Lazs, you reap what you sow. So long as you insist on starting your posts by calling me names (Senator! A politician? Now you’re getting down right nasty, fella), I’m compelled to pick up the gauntlet and slap you back. No hard feelings.
Now as to the rest of your post, you’ve only answered a fraction of the questions I posed. I still don’t see a map, field assignments, complete arena settings and the like. And your whole set up would seem to be built on the “Battle of Britain” planeset we’re using this week. If you’re up for a real challenge, show us your complete set up, but use six different aircraft from the current stable of AH planes (or five, if you drop the TBM from the pure BoB planeset currently in use). Walk without that crutch, like the CT Staff has been doing for a couple months now. Again you throw out generalizations and expect others to do the work and take the risk of failure.
Yes, the numbers have been good this week, in spite of a terrain that’s less than optimal. They’ve been as good or nearly so for other set-ups we’ve run in the CT. Set ups that you were every bit as quick to run down as this one, before you realized it actually had some of the elements you’ve been espousing for so long. Why not come in and join the party, instead of looking in the window and jeering?
Sabre
P.S. Let me know when you've got your set up writen up Lazs. Oh, and I need it and your terrain (approved by HTC and on their server) by noon on Friday. Be ready to spend a couple of hours Friday afternoon getting your arena tables built, loaded, and tested.
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I have no problem helping with and making maps, I get request everyday. Like everyone else My time is very valueable. If you submit an Idea and i find it good i will work with anybody (if I have the time). To save this time, your must have a pretty good thought out map and feild/strat/port/spawn point/depots/city Idea, scketch it out and send to me. Now there are a few things to consider, I have been working with the editor since it came out and i do have knowledge of it's workings. Before anyone submits a map I would STRONGLY suggest you tinker with the TE and have some working knowledge on what Can and cannot be done. With this said I will quote HiTech when asked about what a basic starting point is for a map.
"The real answer to this is simple.
Do not try to reenvent the wheel in any way, use all our standard object layouts. Changing basic game play stuff can have lots of unforseen consiquences.
Don't put any thing in the terrain just because you think it's cool. i.e. stuff like bridges new river types and such.
Keep fields spaced corrently i.e. between 3/4 and 1.5 sectors is min max, normal try keep field spacing to 1 sector.
Never sacrifice game play over real land mass or real field layouts.
Rember players will abuse any diffencancy in the terrain.
Vehicle spawn point to base is normal around 5miles from the tower.
Finaly:
Rember you are not creating a terrain for yourself or to show people how inovative your are,or because you found one wwii era facinating, you are making terrains for other people to have fun at.
And if you realy wish to make a main arena terrain, save yourself lots of work , make a simple bitmap of land mass and field/factor/city/hq layout, send it to us befor you start the real work.
Good luck."
Even though you can create a map theres a whole lot of other information thats needed (some HTC has given us and some HTC won't and really doesn't concern us mapmakers anyways). Thats why I asked in previous post "would people prefer Fantasy maps over real geological landmasses" Real places are nice and add a feel for the real deal of imersion, but may be horrible for gameplay.
Perdonia is a real place ,but was changed drastically for gameplay, so much that it is a "fantasy" map and a few people jumped in and whined how they wanted "REAL" places. But yet the first few maps in AH are fantasy maps. I prefer fantasy maps to balance gameplay, but there are the others that reject this and are hardnosed about not having fantasy terrains, never giving a thought if it was good for gameplay or not.
Theres a forum just for the TE, start making a map, once you've sacrificed your last chicken to the TE gods and need answers hop in it and ask questions, theres plenty of people eager to answer all questions( probably the nicest forum in the whole AH BBS).
I'm not asking anyone to walk a mile in my shoes , i'm just asking to try them on for a second and see how much work is involved with making a map that WORKS and is FUN and has a balanced GAMEPLAY. Then and only then I will help ( you will find you'll answer half your own questions, that eliminates half of anyone answering them).
You'll find out why the CM and CT team get their panties in a bunch ( and rightfully so) when someone works 300-500 hours on a map and 4 people pat the mapmaker on the back, which BTW the thread quickly dissappears and is overshadowed by the hundreds of whining,squeaking, namecalling,nikidweebriding,ho'ing, over/under modeled, why can't i have the spit14 cause the LW have the 262, CT sucks, milkrunning, chutestudmuffin killing, I HATE NSDILESMAP, overmodeled ACK threads.
Why anyone would volunteer to even help HTC make maps, design senerios, run the CT is beyond me, I'll rather shove an Icepick in my ear than put in hundreds of hours, sacificing family and quality down time than waste it on people that are going to dump a hot steamy turd on your hard work.
No, I'm not part of the CM or CT team, but They know they have my services, and my support.
A big WTFG! to the CM and CT team! You guys got much thicker skin than I have. You all should give them a round of and try asking for things you would like to see and stop DEMANDing them, and know what can and cannot be done before your little fingers start typing slurs and slander.
NUTTZ
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You'll find out why the CM and CT team get their panties in a bunch ( and rightfully so) when someone works 300-500 hours on a map and 4 people pat the mapmaker on the back, which BTW the thread quickly dissappears and is overshadowed by the hundreds of whining,squeaking, namecalling,nikidweebriding,ho'ing, over/under modeled, why can't i have the spit14 cause the LW have the 262, CT sucks, milkrunning, chutestudmuffin killing, I HATE NSDILESMAP, overmodeled ACK threads.
ROFLMAO! I tried to say this sentence all in one breath...passed out cold! You hit it on the money, NUTTZ. Thanks for weighing in. The CM's and CT staff take our share of abuse, but we also get more kudos than the unsung heros that labor over maps. Anyone who hasn't worked on an AH map, let alone go through the iteration after iteration before Ronni will put it up on the servers can't really know what you guys go through to produce these terrains. I took one look at the TE and knew that it would have to waite for me to retire for good...or win the lottery. Thanks again for the education.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Sabre,
I didn't really mean Me or any mapmaker I should of used a wider brush, I ment the people who volunteer their time, be it setting up the CT, putting on senerios or making maps. I wasn't looking for any personal attention, I was just alittle torqued that some people make it so personal.
NUTTZ
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sabre.. read your first post and tell me it wasn't wordy and evasive full of politician style disclaimers. If you have "slapped me down" in any way then I am too dense to see it. There is nothing evasive about what I say and... I can't fly in any arena right now due to company.
I have allways said and continue to say that BOB is about the only "historical" CT, whatever, setup that works. look at your numbers. Do you think it is because of the map? Well... it is to an extent, you didn't screw it up too bad.
I did pop in for a minute last night (screw the company) but..... the close fields were closed. Yep... you had to fly several fields deep to get to a fight. That is simply blowing it for early war (any war for me) planes. Why would you set up the fields like that?? Who likes that crap?
Details??? Are u kidding? As nutz says... "why re-invent the wheel?"... simply line the fields up parellel to each other with a "channel in between. Make the fields capturable or not.... who cares? no deep fields...
Settings? make em all the same as the MA or change dar and icons one at a time to see how it goes over.
So what "details" do ya need? you can't picture parellel fields? You don't have to mess with any settings. No matter what you change em to the strat potatos are gonna whine.
Main thing... you don't wanna fly a sector and a half or more ever to get to a fight in these slow birds.
So what did you guys do right this time that you didn't do right every other time? Nothing... you simply had the right planeset handed to you and you failed to screw it up too much with "anal" detailing. Nothing is happening here that I didn't predict before 1.09 planes actually came out.
you can't stop milkrunning becaus it is the nature of the arena and... the people it attracts. The arena because it is so unpopulated at times and the people because of their focus on what is fun.
Sooo... make the fields close to each other and one deep on each side. leave your hands off the settings or... change em one at a time slowly. you are making this a lot more complex than it needs to be.
The formula is simple for a BOB.... make it hard to get into a fight and you will be stuck with your "core" of diehards and bushwhackers and milkrunners. Make it easy (to a point) to get to a fight and make for planeset parity and you will increase your numbers.
The formula for other "axis vs Allied" planesets is also simple. It don't work.
lazs
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Being pessimistic is being lazy. (Lazs?Hmm, play on spelling ?) Its easy to be pessimistic, its difficult to be an optimist.
Carry on.
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I take it then that you and I disagree Lazs, and leave it at that then. I've come to the conclusion that no matter what anyone tries with the CT (or how many people are flying in there) you'll be hostile to it. Not just pessimistic, but hostile. Which makes me wonder why you keep coming in here (or in General Forum CT posts) and spending so much time outputting such lengthy diatribes. Oh, and I noted your use again in your last post of both "evasive" and "anal." Thanks for at least being consistent.
If you have such difficulty understanding my post, get a thesaurus...they're a great help.
Sabre
CT Staff
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Why would anyone volunteer their time and efforts to such an ungrateful few?!?!? It really makes no sense why anyone would ask for that kind of continuous frustration. Constructive critism is one thing, but to verbally attack the various members of the CT staff is asinine.
The hard work the CT staff is putting in really makes for a nice alternative to the Main Arena. Keep up the good work!
As for the slandering critics, I think they need to "put up, or shut up"!
Hugs and Kisses:p
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According to the author of the Darwin awards, If I call someone in this post a Nazi, then the thread must stop right? Well lazs is a nazi. okay no more posts, and this thread should now dissappear.
I really dont think lasz is a nazi, but man i want the time back I spent reading all this keyboard diarrhea. Why do you guys even care what lazs thinks? He wants a dueling arena, not a ct/scenario type arena. Let him play head to head for free or spend all day in the training arena.
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geeze... 5 guys mentioned me by name before i ever wrote a word. You don't want to hear what I got to say then don't read my posts but more importantly.... don't ask for my opinion.
lazs
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Now they're giving you crap for posting in a thread called "Lazs' CT Setup". Hehe.
bowser
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yep bowser.. kinda funny.. there is an attitude that a lot of guys in here have. It is "if someone works really really hard on something then it is not kosher to point out that there work is flawed. At work a crew built 3 miles of pipeline and they worked really really hard on it... on into the night at times. It leaks like a sieve. As you can imagine.... mean ol lazs is being very critical and going around hurting peoples feelings...even tho he never moved a bucket of dirt on the project.
erg... nice of you to "let" me play head to head or in the training arena but I don't really think you have the power to let or not let me into any arena. And... I have an SS tatoo.
lazs
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an SS tattoo? creepy. Too bad the taliban dont have a symbol, maybe in a couple decades you could slap that one on there too. (just kidding, but you get my point)
I didnt mean it in a bad way ie your 'let', I am just pointing out that we currently have in place a setup that seems to be exactly what you want MA and h2h.
It is too bad this thread degenerated so badly, that was really my beef.
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Originally posted by bowser
Now they're giving you crap for posting in a thread called "Lazs' CT Setup". Hehe.
bowser
Was thinking that exact same thing.
AKDejaVu
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Well this thread got squeaky fast.
Look, Lazs is probably the number 1 (or at least most vocal) opponent of the CT, and as much as the CT staff dislike him he has some good ideas that if thrown in to the weekly CT rotation, could be very fun and draw more numbers.
Some of the additional pilots that enter the CT for an "early planeset furball" setup may stay for the other more "historical" matchups.
F.
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Analogies of relevance would be nice. Comparisons to pipelines....? C'mon. My attitude has nothing to do with "if someone works really really hard on something then it is not kosher to point out that there work is flawed". Let me explain.
Contrary to your opinion, Lazs, your ideas are not neccesarily the most accurate either, it depends on your pespective as to what would be best. (ie your opinion vs my opinon). Quote whatever historical document you'd like, the truth is that someone composed it and all documents present a certain amount of "writer's perceptions". Is the glass half full, or half empty? Since the CT staffers have their own opinion and ideas of what is correct, they did it their way (just as you would) for our enjoyment - without pay or other compensation.
Your abrasive comments towards the CT Staff and their ideas are without merit. Furthermore, they negatively influence anyone else's (generally speaking) perception of you, thereby ruining any cedibility you might once have had.
I do realize this post is about allowing you to develop and implement a planeset and period/settings group. More power to you in getting it done, but those previous posts didn't help your cause.
In summation:
Lazs, my previous post was there for your benefit as is this one. I address each of these issues without name calling, without slandering individuals, without being degrading, without lowering my standards, and without beng offensive...
Some of your ideas have credence, but they will never be given any real consideration because YOUR PEOPLE SKILLS SUCK
Food for thought,
If you want to get someone's attention - whisper. Yelling makes them completely unreceptive.
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"I didnt mean it in a bad way ie your 'let', I am just pointing out that we currently have in place a setup that seems to be exactly what you want MA and h2h. "
ok... we have established that you can not only not "let" me do anything but that you also have no idea of what i do or don't want. I find the fact that you somehow feel that you do..... amusing. and.... yes I do have the tatoo. It is over 30 years old and I keep it as a reminder to not ignore the obvious even under peer pressure.
bigmax.. i give not a whit if my ideas are given credence based on how PC a job I do in presenting them. In fact, I don't care if they are given any credence or not. As to seeing the glass half full half emty crap.... Now who is using 'meaningless analogies'?? What is half empty about pointing out what is a popular arena vs an unpopular one? I pointed out when the CT first started up that it would behoovethe staff to try to implement popular settings so as to draw people who might then stay.
As for my "abrasive comments toward the CT staff' having no "merit".... They neither have merit nor lack merit. They are simple observations but....I contend that they are accurate and so... worthy of mention in any discussion on the topic.
lazs
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You have a tattoo representing a group of some of the most narrow minded murders in history to remind you of something? Try string around the finger, or maybe a day calendar. Cheaper, and less likely to give you a strange incurable disease.
After suffering through your comments here (not only yours), and else where I do feel that I have a pretty good idea of what you want. Why do I read this if I dont like most of what is said (by you)? Because I am receptive to new ideas, and I personnally dont know of a way to improve the ct. Synthesis is something I can do though..........
Anyway, lets all start a new thread and let this one die a quick painless death.
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Laz2, heres the problem... well at least from my POV.
people ask for things they would like to see, it gets posted. Now the CM and CT crew can and can't do some things. Like adding planes that would balance gameplay and really were their in that timeframe, but just aren't present in AH, thats one problem. The other is Some things people would like to see NEED to be built into the map while it's being built, and cannot be changed once it's built. A simple change percieved by some is a NIGHMARE to the mapmaker. Not saying all changes are nightmares but the back and forthe is something that HTC wants to avoid. You don't want to be re-Downloading the maps everytime a small change is made.
The CT crew only have a few maps that can be used at this time, with a few around the corner. I know just changing the Looks of a map is just a bandaid over cancer, But as we design new maps We are also learning new "tricks" and you'll see alot of changes.
HTC ,has released new terrain editors faster than patches so the CM and CT team have more to work with. Rome wasn't built in a day ( just destroyed in 1)
I don't mind Listening and reading new Ideas whether I like them or not is not the point, can't you guys argue without personal attacks?
NUTTZ
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A voice falling on deaf ears....
:rolleyes:
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REALLY bright idea Furious...
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erg.. i have a tatoo representing bigotry and white power that was in tune with my beliefs at the time. I was a full blown bigot of the "motorcyle fraternity". I no longer hold those beliefs or associations. It is probly beyond the scope of this forum to explain but I will be more than glad to explain my past and current views to anyone in person.
I am sorry that you had to "suffer" through my comments but i would recomend that if you are going to marty and punish yoursel so, that.... you try to comprhend those comment before making assinine comments of your own.
nuttz... I'm sure that you are correct on things seeming easier to do than they look. I am not suggesting anything near as complex as what you guys seem willing to take on as a matter of course.
bigmax.. I hear you fine and understand what you say. i simply find it irrelevant for me. Probly good advise for children and the hoplessly naive tho.
lazs
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lazs, it is good to hear you do not subscribe to that philosophy anymore
. As far as assinine comments, I dont think I made any did I? I just said that this topic was pointless (nothing to do with your posts), and that you prefer a MA like setup. I have not gone back to read exactly what I wrote, but I dont think it was off putting to anyone (The nazi thing was about the rule for ending a thread as found in The Darwin Awards), and the reference to strings and fingers was before you made it clear you were 'one of those' at some point in your history. I really do try to be civil minded when posting.
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erg... I do not try to be anything. you like to think of yourself a certain way and me as the big bad meanie. Truth is.... your offhanded comments about how you/we should let poor ol befuddled lazs just go off and play in other arenas were..... insulting. Now, I don't mind being insulted but in order for it to be a good insult it should be a little less cowardly, dishonest, uninformed and.... you should make it pertinent. I have never advocated any of the choices yu attribute to me. you seem to be a bandwagon opportunist. If you would like to bash me that's fine but.... I bash back on occassion so it would behoove you to not be quite so offhanded and to do your homework.
lazs
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Oh.. and bigmax. I have no fear of my "credibility". It is not based on the way I say things but on what I say but...... after reading the laundry list of my flaws that you composed I would imagine that your credibility as the even handed civil one is in question by most.
lazs
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My perosonal veiw is maybe this could work but theres a hundred people more deserving of a chance to set up scenarios or setups in the CT.
For a start those that actually play in there!
I have several ideas for battles to re enact but as im not a CM, and yes i applied for the position and got not even a single reply saying yes or no, I'll never get the chance to set one up.
Furious you suggest we let a player who has absolutely stated over and over that the CT will die a death and that he has no interest in it, make his 'personal' favoured setup with bases so close that constant furballs are inevitable? The ideas on bases being knocked out for good has been suggested many times. The idea of making strat targets more important has been reqquested time and time again but its not conducive to a 24 hour arena.The times when few are on will be used by milkrunners to effectively close the game.you will arrive late in the day to find everything destroyed and no where to fly from.
Something laz has p*ssed on about ruining his fun for years!
Laz i think you are a hypocrite myself.Although i like your idea of a destryable landscape but it simply wouldnt work.Snapshot? SURE it would be great, but 24/7 ? it would be utterly unworkable due to abuse of the system in place.
One thing I must ask Laz is you said this:"fields would be destroyed but not captured (nod to strat guys) and when all fields but one were down the war would be over."
What you are well known for is screaming buffs should be banned from AH because they kill your hangers and ruin your fun furballs! you go on to request that fighters be allowed to up even when the hangers are down!and here you are suggesting that buffs be able to close bases permenantly!
Dont you think youre being hypocritical here?
I certainly do.
Im kind of hoping you'll actually play in the CT for a while before you start to control the setup of it myself.Like i said in principle the idea sounds like fun and i would love to play a snapshot or scenario like this! but what surprises me is your total reversal of opinion on the strat system and bomber role.what changed your mind?
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Originally posted by lazs2
Oh.. and bigmax. I have no fear of my "credibility". It is not based on the way I say things but on what I say but...... after reading the laundry list of my flaws that you composed I would imagine that your credibility as the even handed civil one is in question by most.
lazs
Okay Laz whatever...
Your opinion is your opinion... I just don't find anything you say as being credible because of all the BS you say in trying to make your point. I have said nothing that would disparage my credibility but I might if I was to continue this pointless argument.
Laz, you are 100% correct! (lol) What was I thinking....?:eek:
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Well I have to agree with that statement!
--->whatever......
Lazs I think you are a little overly sensitive, and perhaps a little too serious. You should come and check out the new eastern front setup. Very interesting. Or wait, maybe you shouldnt. :/
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hazed.. I agree that in a fair or even a socialist world (gawd forbid!), you should be given a chance to create an arena.... You "deserve" it because you have attended. Who cares that only 6 LW guys would be in it and that they would be complaining after the first day/hour? It's all about what a few guys find correct and giving everyone a chance no matter how poorly they are suited to the task right? Why shouldn't stevie wonder be allowed to drive the bus?
Hypocrite? I don't know... I figure if you have two bases to take off from then you will allways have a good fite. But I see the problem... I guess I shoulda said that I want fighters available at a field till the base is closed or don't allow it to be closed.... I guess I just figured most knew I don't believe in any strat that allows fighters to be unavailable and the field still up. Heck you could close the base as soon as the hangers were down far as I'm concerned. So no.... I don't want fields "open" but with no capability to launch fighters. As to furballs.... Why would it be a furball arena? The sky accountants could take off from a far field and waste as much time as they like getting alt. Oh.... I get it.... You are saying that people won't fly your way (they will fly mine) if given the opportunity and that they need to be forced to fly in a way that you think is proper.
So let the strat potatos close bases and win wars all night with no opposition.... Heck.... I would be just as happy with non capturable bases. My ilk places very little value on "winning the war."
erg... yes.. I have allways been a very sensitive guy. you can ask any of my ex wives. BTW... do you have anything worthwhile to add and can we expect it anytime soon? I am also having trouble finding the content to bigmax's posts. You guys do seem to be on the same page as to my flaws tho.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
Why shouldn't stevie wonder be allowed to drive the bus?
Thanks Laz! My nose needed an internal-to-external high pressure coffee flush this morning!
;)
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Oh lazs, you want my opinion!? I dont really have one, I read this to find out about other peoples ideas.
What did you think of the AW base capture setup? Where you could pretty much always fly no matter what the damage, but as more hangers went down chances are your plane would be less than healthy when you took off. The more fuel knocked out the less you could load, and the more ammo knocked out the less your plane would have (we kinda have that already).
In this way you could always fly (unless too many had taken off already), but hitting the base affected game play. But perhaps that falls too much under the strat potato category.
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Hmmm disturbing yet I can't pull myself away..............
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Originally posted by Löwe
Hmmm disturbing yet I can't pull myself away..............
Awsome GIF.... point Lowe.
:D
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Originally posted by lazs2
hazed.. I agree that in a fair or even a socialist world (gawd forbid!), you should be given a chance to create an arena.... You "deserve" it because you have attended. Who cares that only 6 LW guys would be in it and that they would be complaining after the first day/hour? It's all about what a few guys find correct and giving everyone a chance no matter how poorly they are suited to the task right? Why shouldn't stevie wonder be allowed to drive the bus?
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laz you missunderstand.In order to be able to set up your own 'type' of gameplay or setup you have to be on the CT team.both you and I are not.
'poorly suited to the task'? so here you are claiming you ARE better suited to it? even though you have yet to play in th arena? oh yeah that makes sense.I feel i have a better idea of what would work in the CT as ive played every map in there and yes my ideas were similar to yours, with bases being closed for much longer etc.However I have come to realise it doesnt work in the 24/7 arena. read what nuttz said.As for those that 'deserve' a chance to set things up? I meant others, like nuttz and 10bears, who are putting more into the CT (ie map making etc and supporting it by playing in it), should get the oppertunity before you,'the guy walking in off the street'.
Hypocrite? I don't know... I figure if you have two bases to take off from then you will allways have a good fite. But I see the problem... I guess I shoulda said that I want fighters available at a field till the base is closed or don't allow it to be closed.... I guess I just figured most knew I don't believe in any strat that allows fighters to be unavailable and the field still up. Heck you could close the base as soon as the hangers were down far as I'm concerned. So no.... I don't want fields "open" but with no capability to launch fighters.
[/b]
2 bases is enough for a good fight? yeah and when we see that in the MA people are real happy about it then too right? I seem to recall a 'certain someone' complaining about that too.Plus bases on most of the CT maps are smaller than the MA ones laz.they would be shut in 2 runs instead of 1 (or by 2 guys instead of 1) if they dont respawn(even less if lancs were in there).The effect would be the same.Milkrunners would close them just as often.you say you do want fighters available until base is totally down? it wont make a difference.ou will be fighting between your two close bases while the milkrunners close the ones behind or around them as happens now except they at least get the chance to rebuild.1 guy can thwart the milkruns as it stands by upping a GV but with permenant damage that guys would have to stay there.Unlikely to happen.stopping milkrunners is the idea not stopping bombers altogether.
As to furballs.... Why would it be a furball arena? The sky accountants could take off from a far field and waste as much time as they like getting alt. Oh.... I get it.... You are saying that people won't fly your way (they will fly mine) if given the opportunity and that they need to be forced to fly in a way that you think is proper.
[/b]
You obviously dont 'get it'.This sort of statement is precisely why im glad you dont fly in the CT.There is no your way or my way Laz.The game has to appeal to all who want to fly.Be they bomber fans or fighter fans.Your us and them attitude is exactly the kind of crap i was glad to leave behind in the MA.We have a good mix of furballs ,lone engagements and bombing attacks.Bases are closed then reopened but the fight moves around.when the fighters remain available yes we have furballs and yes we ALL enjoy them but not when they last forever like the MA where from 1 day to the next the fight remains in the same 5 miles!.The idea behind a CT is to make it different to the MA, not the same thing.
So let the strat potatos close bases and win wars all night with no opposition.... Heck.... I would be just as happy with non capturable bases. My ilk places very little value on "winning the war."
[/b]
strat potatos? go back to your playpen.I dont place any value on winning the war either but SOME DO.I do however place value on giving everyone a chance to affect the game in their own way.If a guy enters the CT and likes to bomb then he should be able to do something of value else why would he stay?.I personally fly both fighters and bombers, so do many others in the CT.I want variety of play not the same old fighters against fighters over and over.As the CT stands theres room for guys like you who want to use just fighters AND the bomber guys.
erg... yes.. I have allways been a very sensitive guy. you can ask any of my ex wives. BTW... do you have anything worthwhile to add and can we expect it anytime soon? I am also having trouble finding the content to bigmax's posts. You guys do seem to be on the same page as to my flaws tho.
lazs
sensitive? lol you wouldnt know what that is if it came up and bit you on the ass.what you are is ignorent and intollerent, why do you think they are X-wives.You are the only one claiming your way is right and that everyone else is wrong.you have ignored everyone on this board who disagrees(the guys that actually play in here).You call player 'types' dumb diddlying names demand to know if i have anything to 'add' soon and at the same time 'add' nothing yourself except an idea better suited to a one night snapshot or scenario, you dont even 'add' your presence in the arena.I have one thing to ADD and that is if you dont make the maps or put in the time like the CM's have or play in the arena, you have no business trying to change it.You have your dueling arena Laz.Go there.
ahh but its empty right? why because not enough people want to constantly furball and even if they did its easier to head to a populated arena to get their fix.Its the same for those that want something more from the game.Not enough to populate an arena dedicated to one type of game style.The CT has changed.The CM's have done a good job of adapting to the 'mob' demands.we have a slightly different style to the game which suits both types of player and its getting more popular than it was.We all have to see it cant be pandered to one style or the other.Its about time you did too.
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erg said "Oh lazs, you want my opinion!? I dont really have one, I read this to find out about other peoples ideas."
For someone without an opinion you sure get your little kicks in and... if you want other peoples opinions my suggestion is that you actually read what they write.
hazed.. I never claimed to be any more or less suited to the task of setting up a CT arena. I have never applied. My ideas are simple common sense and pertain only to the BOB with it's special circumstances. I am only interested in this period in the CT as it is a good place to fly the early war planes if the arena is set up right. I don't want tthe bases "closed for much longer" I want em ded or open to fighters... no in between limbo crap.
2 bases if good enough to get a plane launched in the CT. When one of em is ded the war is over anyway by my setup. Rudimentary strat is required to get fights... field captur/kill and "win"... I don't give a whit about what the strat potatos and milkrunners want or do. If they get off on milkrunning fields at 3 in the 3 in the AM who cares?
"You obviously dont 'get it'.This sort of statement is precisely why im glad you dont fly in the CT.There is no your way or my way Laz."
No... you don't get it. there are fighters and fluffers sure but.. The fighters will (90% of em) fight if given a choice. I don't care and never have what the other 10% do. They can go stratosphere and lone wolf it or fluff hunt. My arena would allow the people who lack fighter skills or courage to continue to milkrun and look for alt but 90% would still look for the closest fight.
about the ex wives.... Ya think? I have never even tried the dueling arena or whatever arena you and others suggest i try. They all sound worthless. I don't think that my ideas for a BOB setup in the CT would be worthless... well, not so far as numbers go.
Face it... the BOB is the most popular of all the setups. It was handed to em on a silver platter. NOBODY could have screwed it uyp toooooo bad. It is not a matter of making it 'better" it is a matter of.... the less you screw it up the more people it will have.
lazs
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laz i agree they wouldnt be worthless IF we had a CM in there for 24hrs a day.
that way when we came in to find all bases but 3 instead of the 2 or 1 that would have ended the game still up but the rest of the map completely finished off we could ask them to reset it.
The amount of times i came into the baltic arena only to find my choices were fly from one of 2 or 3 bases and the arena empty because no one wanted to retake all those bases in order to win was pretty common.
with the fluctuating numbers it was also common for one side to have 3 to 1 odds.
Now i realise now you mean just the BOB map but this wouldnt be avery suitable map either imo.you have 3 allied bases near the south coast all within 2 sectors of the channel (a40,a41,a42) plus the 2 cv's.the LW have (a20,A19,A18) right on the coast all withing veiw of each other then 3 or so other bases within 2 or 3 sectors behind them.I think you'll aggree 'most' if not all of the other bases are too far apart to attract the quick fight guys.Often what we have found before we shortened the hanger respawn was the fast fight guys would lose thes front line bases and most would leave the CT.The was a core of players who would carry on figthting away.By the time the bases had respawned the place was near empty.
Now if we have permanent destruction of bases and CV's who is going to play out the rest of the map? no-one is going to fly 100 miles when they wont even fly just 50 miles now will they?
if we capture(which rebuilds them?) and leapfrog the bases they will have to be attacked en mass and they will be.again it sounds good but in practice if theres adequate defenders but this is the exact thing that used to annoy you.people will start to 'game' the game.If the numbers are low and Knowing we cant finish a base unless its completely down, and only having to do it once will invite vulch attacks by a few bombers with a fighter cap that kills anything that ups off a open or semi destroyed base(whether those launching fighters have full fuel/ord or whatever wont make a difference). If numbers were equal from the start this would be fun ive no doubt but chances are one side will have 2 or 3 times as many, they will quickly destroy each of the forward bases(possibly leaving them uncaptured to stop enemy ever using them again) and as the enemy with no bases leave, the room will die again.
your a-typical milkrunner will do this very thing at 2am and all bases will be miles apart.
so what are we left with? we will need a map with bases evenly spaced and numerous so theres always a base close by? I think this will become another mass of milkrun bases.Again if you arrive as it begins it will be great but chances are you wont.Bases close together will be destroyed quickly in a frenzy of destruction.Hmm sounds good! but people wont jabo into other fighters will they? they will hit bases close by that arent busy furballing and eventually we are left with the same thing.ever widening battle lines.Even the furball area will eventually be wiped out if destruction is progressive without respawn.if you arrive at this time it would mean long flights..ergo log off time.
As the BOB map stood the CM's made an excellent setup.With the tools they had they made a good ballanced setup. They were limited in their choice by the map.If you think BOB would have been better on a different map, which would you suggest? It was plainly obvious that the map used was what everyone wanted to see.We had no regard for what could be done with it-we just wanted france/england to match the planes.
The way i see it the CMs did a good job.Ive not enjoyed myself so much in ages in AH. we had furballs off the coasts and up above England,I set up big bomber missions deliberately targeted at London because i wanted it to 'look' right and didnt want to see the forward bases dead because that would have driven people out.we had jabos under dar to factories and in full view to any bases.The way we played helped but evry now and then the front bases got hammered and the numbers dropped.
what you suggest is the same as what lots wanted to see but often its not what works.Thats what the majority of people are saying here.
My own idea AFTER playing BOB is to make bombing of the FACTORIES and LONDON targets rewarding in some way.perhaps if we had some sort of dynamic system whereupon the more we bombed factories the greater the cost of aircraft in perks or the slower the repsawning of fleets etc we would have seen more of the bombing targeting the areas where it wont affect the players ability to find a fight.
why did i think this? Because i damn well enjoyed those missions even though it was dissapointing they had little effect.
OK so players might have to take a hurricane instead of a spit (or a 109e instead of a 110 or even the ju88 bombers would become more expensive if the raf managed to kill production somewhere).
would it work? I doubt it. could it be done with the current tools available to the CMs? I dont think so.
is the idea a good one? hehe I think it could be fun but its unworkable over a 24hr game just like yours.
BIN IT :D
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wish i could draw this... imagine a coastline very much like the opening of a zig zag clamshell with "bays and peaks" in the "channel" with the peaks fields of one country close to the bay fields of the opposite country. Hard to explain but with, say five fields on each side, the absolute worst situation would be two end fields on each country side left. (one left would mean the war was over and a reset) ... even at that there would allways be one field of the enemy within less than a sector to fight. with the "1 fields left and it's a reset" thing there would allways be a place to take off. A 'peak' field would be close to it's opposite 'bay' field and also to the opposite 2 'peak' fields... Hard to explain but unlike puting the fields behind each other, you would allways have a close field even when 2 or three fields on one side were out of action.
let the milkrunners reset the fields at low hours. If that's what get's em off so be it.
I certainly do not want any perk planes in an early war set nor do we need cv's . I do not want any planes restricted. In any BOB setup that has close fields (or any setup with close fields for that matter) you will have the fights getting lower and lower. The cowardly no talent milkrunners have allways been aware of this and simply come in high. you can't fight their only skill, patience, with anything but.... patience. If you wish to include them in the game then you must be willing to make being patient worthwile and to do so.... is to ruin the game for the majority that would like to fight. If they wanted to help with the reset then they could. fields would fall rapidly and resets would occure often. everyone would be "participating" . A very simple setup for a very simple time frame and very simple planes.. get as anal and complex as you want on the other planesets/hitoricalsets... nobody flys em anyway. Make em as lopsided and unfair as possible.. who cares?
lazs