Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Vruth on March 25, 2002, 10:41:24 PM
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Prior to the BoB CT map, the graduated plane set basically required you to earn your ride.
If I wanted to fly the P-51D, I needed 3 perkies so I upped in P-51B models until I could earn it.
Same with for all late war aircraft. Everything was perked, the SpitIX, La-7, P-47D-25/30's, Dora, G10's, etc. It was a perfect balance in the arena. A majority of early war aircraft was used and other such as the Tempest, Ta-152 ect were moderately priced, including the 262.
It made playing in the CT a lot of fun. MA dweebs and quakers had to tough it out in the older Spit V, Hurricane, Zeke, or the 202/205 until they could earn enough points for their favorite ride.
Personally, I thought it made better pilots of everyone. Your perk ride was costing you so you tended to fly to survive rather than quake around. And it taught the newbies the skills they needed to survive in less superior planes. No longer could you up in NIK2's, SpitIX, or La-7's in endless torrents because it would cost you your perk points.
This brings me to another point. Most Air Forces stick their pilots in older, less powerful aircraft so they respect the aircraft and flying first. Gravy was after they earned it. Imagine if military flight schools started off recruit pilots in F-16's, F-18, Typhoon's to teach basic flight instead of the Hawk or Cessna.
Wouldn't the MA benefit of such a system?
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"Wouldn't the MA benefit of such a system?"
Might, might not. I wouldn't know because I'd quit AH the instant it was implemented.
J_A_B
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Hehe earn my ride? lol Yes it was nice to see that most of latewar rides were perked in CT... Well So I upped in 109E killed 2 Spitfires landed my 10 perkpoints and was free to do almost anything :D
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WOW what a bonus! We could make the MA better and get rid of JAB! Sweet! Lets do it.
just kidding.
Let MA do whatever they like. Reminds me of pigs at the trough, and they can stay that way. The graduated perk system is a fine addition for some CT maps. I would rather have limited plane sets and historical setups in the ct. In fact I prefer having something new and interesting every week. As long as BOB comes back 1 time a month, and the pacific.
jump on the bus to the MA
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I have to say I earned my ride with the $14.95 I paid each month. I have too little time to devote to gaining perks to be restricted ad infinitum to a sub quality plane in a game I paid to play. Like JAB I'd be gone too. As it is now I am paying far more than the average for the time I get to play.
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Not sure if you realize this mav, but it is much easier to get quality rides with a CT style graduated perk system. Example 262 = 25 perks not 200, typhoon is 6 perks or something like that. f4u4 is 7 perks I think. 152 was way cheap. I think you would be able to fly your MA perk birds way more often under that system. Not saying they should install this in MA, just letting you know what the prices were like.
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Don't know about anyone else, but I fly the SpitV (almost) exclusivly for the very reason I don't think I'm 'ready' for the hotter aircraft. When I can wring all there is out of the SpitV I'll move up and work on something a little more challenging. As it is I'm learning what I can (die) and can't (hit something) do in the V.
I did manage to kill a SPIT14 with a 700 yard zero deflection shot five minutes after the arena re-opened. It would have been more impressive if another XIV hadn't made window out of my ride before I could land it. :(
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Originally posted by Puck
Don't know about anyone else, but I fly the SpitV (almost) exclusivly for the very reason I don't think I'm 'ready' for the hotter aircraft. When I can wring all there is out of the SpitV I'll move up and work on something a little more challenging.
Please SKIP N1K2 and La7 :D
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Originally posted by ergRTC
Not sure if you realize this mav, but it is much easier to get quality rides with a CT style graduated perk system. Example 262 = 25 perks not 200, typhoon is 6 perks or something like that. f4u4 is 7 perks I think. 152 was way cheap. I think you would be able to fly your MA perk birds way more often under that system. Not saying they should install this in MA, just letting you know what the prices were like.
What you don't realize is that I fly only about 1 to 2 hours a week. Those flights are with my squad in the TOD due to my schedule. I dont have any time to go play the game to try and earn points to fly an allegedly "quality" plane. If I can't fly the squad plane without having to "earn it" there is no reason to pay for a game I won't be playing. Not everyone has time to play.
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If you only fly during TOD what is the difference? You dont fly MA then right? Just practice in the TA when you need it, and keep on keeping on.
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It's not even a question of whether you CAN earn the points.
It's a question of wanting to. I can earn perkpoints same as anyone else by flying high-ENY planes, but I don't. I'm not paying for AH to fly some junky POS airplane that I care nothing about, and I'm DEFINATELY not paying for AH just to "earn" the points to fly my choice ride.
Even at a cheap perk, of say 4-5 points, I'd still end up having to spend 40%-50% of my already limited online time flying some piece of crap and having utterly NO FUN. Why pay for something that is NO FUN? Or why pay full price for something that I'll only be enjoying part of the time?
Plus the frustration of getting shot down (which happens to me a lot due to my limited skill) would be greatly expounded because that would often mean "oops, no more P51 for you, now you get to fly junky crap plane". AH just wouldn't be worth it.
No, except for the rare oddball flight, I DO NOT HAVE FUN flying something other than my choice ride. You could put me in an LA7, I'd get twice as many kills and never die, and I still wouldn't have any fun at all.
J_A_B
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Well I never flew planes to get points... I fly planes because I like the planes (like Typhoon or P-51B (everyone says its useless because P-51D can do anything way much better than the B but I dont care... B is green and very nice so I fly it) or any other plane I fly) and the points? well they keep cumulating somehow by themselves.... :D
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Originally posted by Vruth
It made playing in the CT a lot of fun. MA dweebs and quakers had to tough it out in the older Spit V, Hurricane, Zeke, or the 202/205 until they could earn enough points for their favorite ride.
Is it a requirement that one be a "MA dweeb and quaker" for one to venture into the CT the first time? Or is it that in your most humble opinion that anybody that prefers the MA is one?
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Originally posted by MrLars
Is it a requirement that one be a "MA dweeb and quaker" for one to venture into the CT the first time? Or is it that in your most humble opinion that anybody that prefers the MA is one?
You mean....maybe they're not?
An interesting concept, Lars.
- Oldman
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Are perk points still wiped off every week in the CT?
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Originally posted by Seeker
Are perk points still wiped off every week in the CT?
Real men don't use perk points.
They didn't erase the perk points for the BoB setup, but none of the planes there were perked. Don't know what's planned for the upcoming desert campaign.
- Oldman
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JAB some of those POS old planes are really fun to fly. Come to the CT and try the hurri or spit 1. It is a load of fun, and your skills may improve a little, I know mine have since the BOB setup.
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Fine with me. Progressive perks for the better rides is a good idea. So much as I don't like flying P-51B, if that's what I had to do to get a P-51D, I would do it.
Aside from the super ubers, I would accept something where all planes introduced early 1944 be worth 2 perks, late 1944 be worth 5 perks, early 1945, 8 perks, late war 1945 worth 20 perks and any plane that saw less than 2 months actual combat time be worth 30 points.
The super uber (like 262) worth 50 perks, but I would even like to see it in the first scheme, in the 20 point range.
If most planes were perked, you wouldn't have guys with giant perk accounts, as they would be spending them most of the time.
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I agree with Maverick
I pay my money and I shouldn't have to deal with perks for common planes.
Also some of us have jobs and a life which take majority of our time and don't have mommy and daddy paying all the bills
You don't like the MA then don't fly in it
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I dont and I tend not to fly in it (waiting for the new strat system to come on line). But jpeg, your planes already are perked? SInce they are perked, why do you have a problem with lowering there cost?
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""JAB some of those POS old planes are really fun to fly. Come to the CT and try the hurri or spit 1. It is a load of fun, and your skills may improve a little, I know mine have since the BOB setup."
First, I lump the likes of the LA7 and Tempest in with the POS planes. If it ain't silver and a P-51, then I don't want to have to fly it. I don't pick my ride because of performance (if I did I'd be in an LA7), I pick it because that's what I like. Just because YOU are of the opinion that it's "fun" to fly a variety of aircraft all the time, doesn't mean that's how I feel.
Second, I do occasionally fly something different. Roughly 5-10% of my online time is spent in something other than my choice ride. However I do not wish to be forced to fly these planes. I'm paying my monthly subscription to AH to fly what I want, not to fly what others think I should.
Third, the CT doesn't require any more skill than the MA does. It's the same game. The only thing that's tougher in the CT than in the MA is finding a decent fight.
J_A_B
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What I'm reading is messages from a lot of senior veterans of AH who like their main rides. Most of you have hundreds of perkies and 1 or 2 perks a ride is nothing considering that's usually the amount you earn each sortie.
I guess the system I envision is designed to reduce the amount of 'quaking' and to make the MA a lot more enjoyable. What came out of this in the CT was a 'balanced' arena (an amazing concept really...) What it does force is for players to play a lot more honestly, especially if you ARE flying a perked ride. It also reduced the number of aircraft types to realistic levels. It's something the MA has been lacking the past 10-15 months.
Another point... instead of complaining about my idea, I'd be happy to hear a better one. :D
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"to make the MA a lot more enjoyable. "
I enjoy it perfectly fine as it is. Apparently so do 400+ people/day
"Another point... instead of complaining about my idea, I'd be happy to hear a better one. "
Ok. Leave the MA alone. Or open a second MA with the settings you recommend. Or do the sort of thing with it that I recommend in a different thread in the GD forum.
J_A_B
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If there is "so much quaking" going on in the MA, perhaps it's because lots of paying customers LIKE to play like that. Why shouldn't they? They are playing for what they pay for, let them play as they like and you can play as you like.
Novel concept, don't worry about how the other guys plays the game.
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Originally posted by Vruth
Another point... instead of complaining about my idea, I'd be happy to hear a better one. :D
Heres an idea: leave it alone and let the pros. handle it, MA works fine the way it is, esp. with the resupply system fixed.
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Originally posted by ergRTC
I dont and I tend not to fly in it (waiting for the new strat system to come on line). But jpeg, your planes already are perked? SInce they are perked, why do you have a problem with lowering there cost?
The planes I fly are NOT already perked, and thats the way I would like to keep them.
(that was the biggest point of my post)
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Originally posted by Vruth
What I'm reading is messages from a lot of senior veterans of AH who like their main rides. Most of you have hundreds of perkies and 1 or 2 perks a ride is nothing considering that's usually the amount you earn each sortie.
I guess the system I envision is designed to reduce the amount of 'quaking' and to make the MA a lot more enjoyable. What came out of this in the CT was a 'balanced' arena (an amazing concept really...) What it does force is for players to play a lot more honestly, especially if you ARE flying a perked ride. It also reduced the number of aircraft types to realistic levels. It's something the MA has been lacking the past 10-15 months.
Another point... instead of complaining about my idea, I'd be happy to hear a better one. :D
I have 600+ perks, I save them to use 262 or some other perk planes like f4uc. I shouldn't be risking them for common everyday planes.
If you don't like the "quaking" then fly with the strat ppl in MA, theres plenty of them including me. I love to participate in missions and bomb targets but I still like to get into "furball" here and there.
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Hypothetical: The F4F-3 is introduced. There is no way I can fly that thing with any enjoyment if there are still mega swarms of P-51s, LA7s and N1Ks in the arena. And I pay my $15/month just like anyone else and I do NOT want to be forced into some other airframe just for survival's sake.
Exaggerated Hypothetical: The F-22 Raptor is introduced. I pay $15/month and do not want to be restricted from flying the aircraft. You can still fly your P-51 (it's free), but would it be enjoyable to fly it in a swarm of Raptors? Would you then feel it necessary to find a new ride...say, the F-15 Eagle?
Trust me, it'll never be fair to everyone. But right now, it's a bit more fair to some than others.
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I am thinking that what some people would like to see is a sense of mortality being introduced into a game where, for the most part, people fly and die without any real effort to keep from being shot down.
I think that a lot of guys don't care if they are shot down, so long as they shoot the other guy first. That's why you see so many HOs, direct 6:00 attacks on B17s, chasing other planes through full AA cover, etc.
If you look at it like a contact sport, football for example, then if a player wants to last the season, he will try to avoid doing things that will probably get him injured. Things like a wide reciever jumping straight up to catch a ball when there are 4 defensemen all around him. Sure, he might make the catch, but when he gets drilled from all 4 sides on the way back down, will that catch have been worth it while he is in traction for the next 6 months?
How many times do you see suicide runs in the MA? People flying striaght into a CV, knowing they will be killed, but not caring, so long as they get the 'Ship Destoryed' Message. They just re-up a fresh plane, and think nothing of it, other than they can say they sunk the enemy ship.
Or you see messages in the text buffer
Pilot 1: HAHA, I killed your plane!
Pilot 2: So, you died also.
Pilot 1: So what, I got another plane already and I got the perks for killing you anyway.
With a low cost perk system, the efforts of people maybe greater combined into a more 'survivabliity' factor, where they try to keep their airframes from being shot to hell in a blaze of glory.
Yes, I KNOW there are many who don't care and like the insta-respawn with no penalty game play feature. There are also many who like the idea of using a little more tactics than just dive right in and start shooting approach of the common endless furball.
Seeing eye-to-eye in this debate will never happen, but it might be possible for each side to give a little so the other side can be happy too.
Personally, I like the idea of point and perk limits if you get shot down.
1. Pilot killed = no points or perks for the entire flight
2. Pilot Captured = 25% points and perks given
3. Succesful bail = 50% points and perks given
4. Succesful ditch = 75% points and perks given
5. Succesful landing = 100% points and perks given
The people who don't care about points and perks sholdn't care about this, and the people that do care could also be semi-happy with it, because they can get something out of it if they do manage to live.
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Originally posted by Midnight
Personally, I like the idea of point and perk limits if you get shot down.
1. Pilot killed = no points or perks for the entire flight
2. Pilot Captured = 25% points and perks given
3. Succesful bail = 50% points and perks given
4. Succesful ditch = 75% points and perks given
5. Succesful landing = 100% points and perks given
You are a cruel person... I knew there was something I liked about you... I am in total agreement. That would truly change the complexion of the MA.
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Originally posted by Midnight
1. Pilot killed = no points or perks for the entire flight
Only if you get perk penalty (severe) for killing chutes... I know it would harm FDB's bussiness but who the hell cares :D
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absolutely, I think it would work.
As far as chutes go, just give me a fricking 50 cal pistol so I got a chance. Makes me feel good to let the other guy go, dont understand the guys that shoot em down. In the CT i have not seen a chute shooter yet, but I have heard rumors......
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No thanks.
{and for those with the elitest CT attitude}
Take the whole "people in the MA are just quake dweebs, while people that fly the CT are REAL pilots" crap and shove it up ........
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Why vermillion? would this ruin your life? Would your ability to play and enjoy the game end right there?
Or is it the thought of shooting armed chutes that bothers you so? Perhaps its the idea of living and LANDING (yes that undercarriage has two uses) for perks that makes you nervous.
And for your information CT people are a better breed! Just ask any of them! ;)
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If it was implemented in the MA? Yup it would be a pain in my a##.
I don't fly for score personally, but for fun. And I don't want others trying to dictate to me what and how I should fly. I personally love scenarios and other special events, and fly them when I can. But scenarios are for that kind of flying, not the MA when I just have a few minutes for a short hop, and a hot and tastey furball.
Even then I still land a large percentage of my sorties (I avg between 1.5 and 2.0 in "official" HTC K/D most tours (ie overall total calculated on the scorepage), and thats pretty good considering all the deaths I rack up when I fly drunk ;) ).
One tour (a very long time ago) I tried the whole "fly to live in the MA at all costs" and it bored the hell outta me. I finished in the top 10 pilots in K/D that tour, but it was the least fun I've ever had in AH. So I don't expect to try it again. FYI it was like Tour 4 or something if you feel the need to check up on me and see if I'm lying. Its under "Verm"
So can I hack it? Yup if I want too. But personally I find the CT or the HA in Warbirds (very similar beasts, with the same resulting elitist attitudes) very boring and not something I want implemented in the MA anytime soon.
So yah, I figure I know what that landing gear is for :p
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Okay vermillion, I buy your reasoning.
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verm... couldn't agree more with ya and have had pretty much the same experiance. The harder I try the less fun I have. If I wanted to work at something I would put in the overtime on the job and make the money. Besides... don't the everquesters realize that the more you have to "earn" advantages in the MA the less people think of those who have "earned" em?
It is easy to earn respect in the MA and it has nothing to do with score or rank and it certainly is harder to earn respect by flying superior planes against mediocre ones.
Their needs to be a balance in the casual vs everquest player with the casual player getting the most attention since he pays the bills.
lazs
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I think Verm essentially has it nailed.
I would only add that there's a vocal minority that apparently believes they know way more about building what the customer wants than HTC does.
I'd merely point to the nightly numbers in the CT vs the MA. Sure, some find the CT to be a truly religious, orgasmic experience. Clearly, they are in a very small minority. :) (Come to think of it, many of them remind me of television evangelists for some reason. :D)
Somehow, I think HTC has a much better grasp of what the average customer truly wants and enjoys.
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Oh, I don't know, Toad. HTC only keeps, what, seven or eight people gainfully employed?
You have to wonder how successful the online air combat simulation companies run by some of the other people around here are :D
Just need to remember to:
:1,$s/we need/I want/g
in most of these posts ;)
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Well, I am not one for changing the MA, but I will defend the CT, while knocking you guys a little. The reason 75% of the people (Baaa) that are in the MA stay in the MA is because they are like moths to a light.
They dont want to fly in an arena with only 10 people in it (I dont blame them if they dont think that would be fun). So its kind of a circular thing.
people dont fly in ct cause there are low numbers, and so the low numbers never go up cause nobody wants to fly in low numbers.
Sure they try to bait them into the CT with varied setups (and we dont even get lake ueterus, that alone would be enough to keep me in CT) but the sheep people would never come over simply because of a map or scenario (thank god).
A great way to test this is artificially increase the number reported for that arena, and decrease the number in the ma, see where the people go first when they log on............
on a side note, I found somebody in the TA, skatjr i think, with 640 kills. Thats 640 kills in the TA. Wow, each to there own I guess.
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I'm neither attacking the CT nor defending the MA.
I'm merely pointing out that there seems to be a lot of "CT folks" that seem absolutely sure that they KNOW what other players want. However, it appears to me that HTC seems to have a much better grasp of this concept of "what people want".
Basically, HTC "threw a bone" to the vocal minority of players dissatisfied with the MA. They gave "dissatisfied MA players" control over their own arena setups and turned them loose to create "paradise" as far as the code allows.
To me, the numbers tell the story. Paradise is in the mind of the beholder. But then I always knew that. :)
Tell, upon what research do you base your "75% baaaaaaaa" statistic? That would actually be unsupportable opinon, would it not?
You have done research that shows the MAIN reason people don't fly the CT is "low numbers"? Have you reliably defined "low numbers"? I mean, how many does it take until it's not "low"? Have you given your detailed research to HTC to help them out here?
Low numbers are NOT the reason I don't fly the CT. But then, I guess I'm already accounted for in your research and you knew that.
"but the sheep people would never come over simply because of a map or scenario (thank god)."
Let me get this straight.. you bemoan low numbers but thank the diety that the "sheep people" aren't coming over to your Paradise due to maps or scenarios?
To sum up... within the limitations of the game code, the CT is free to become whatever those who dislike playing in the MA can make of it.
Despite continual changes in search of the "holy grail" arena, the CT continues to draw the merest fraction of the player base.
So the conclusion is that the vast majority of the player base doesn't know what it likes?
You guys crack me up. :)
Please.. don't ever consider that the changes made in the CT that differentiate it from the MA have anything to do with the situation. :D
Enjoy the CT. Fly what you like, like what... oh, wait, that's my sig!
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No man, I dont like the numbers, that is why I fly CT! that and the axis vs. allied. I already told you how to test this: artificially inflate the numbers and see what happens. the 75% is just my guess (but I am pretty sure it is right, gut feeling, just watch a crowd sometime).
I used to fly big pac in AW which tended to have around 40-80 people in it. That was about perfect. The CT runs from 10 -40 which I enjoy. Normally on squad nights we have right near that number.
The original thread here was about using a system like one which was popular and worked well in the CT. A thread which I did not start, but believed it may be a better perk system in the MA than the perk system it now uses (yes I used to fly in the MA before it got to be the 400 person furball it is today, back when it was around 180 it was great fun). Repeat the perk system it now uses. Perk system, used in MA. Yes perk system. There is a perk system in the MA.
Since it is not the free-for-all that many of you pretend you have, why not try to make it better? 60 perks for a f4u4, what a joke.
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Ah, ok.. so it's just opinion presented as fact. Got it.
12+ arenas limited to 40 players each... well, it's a thought and it would make you happy I guess. Write it up and send it off to HTC. :)
Perk system? At its very basis, it is a means to encourage or "make" people fly things they don't necessarily want to fly in order to gain points to fly things that are considered "too popular". (The idea that "perking" is solely based or even primarily based on performance has pretty well been discredited by recent history.)
I'm a big "fly what you like guy"... but I'll leave the intracacies of perking and gameplay to the guys with the credentials and the proven experience. Haven't seen any of them post in this thread yet. :)
Personally, I don't pretend that the MA is anything at all... except a fun game or me. :) I'd never have the nerve to suggest how someone else should be playing nor criticize them for their choice in how to spend their free time.
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I dont understand toad? So there is not a perk system in the MA?
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Of course there is.
I just leave it to HTC to work it out... seems like they have a way better handle on what the players want than anyone else.
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Let me withdraw the part of my post that says I would be OK with the P-51D being perked. Although I wouldn't mind so much, I cannot speak for my entire squadron which is formed around the P-51. If the D became a perk, I think the concept of an all P-51 squadron would become tough to maintain. It's hard enough now, and the things are all free.
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Originally posted by Puck
Just need to remember to:
:1,$s/we need/I want/g
in most of these posts ;)
You regex geek ;)....wait....I guess me knowing what that is makes me a geek too.
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At some point perking planes / vehicles will make the game very one dimensional. The only ones getting the perk rides will be the ones who have the time to game the game and invest the hours to "earn" perk points. Once the majority of planes (or even a significantly large minority) of planes become perked the rest of the players, newbies, part time players and those who just want to have fun flying THEIR choice of plane will become disenchanted with the game. Why pay for something you cannot use? I still manitain the players with the most perk points are the players that need them the least.
If that happens I sincerely hope there is another arena created so that the players will have a greater choice. There could be an arena to allow those who want to fly the "lesser" planes that cannot be competitive against the later war planes and another that is more open to plane choice. Then again it might just be another unerutilized arena like the CT vs the MA. I guess HT will just have to choose which player base to cater to.
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I only pay to fly the 262, I feel so betrayed by HTC. Why cant I fly the plane I pay for? whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa
:)
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I don't know about all these people who complain about that they pay to play the game and should therefore beable to fly everything all the time, no matter what.
Think of all those RPGs out there where you start out as 'joe the poor blacksmith' and all you get is a knife and a leather shield. You have to learn the ropes and gain experience before you can earn the 'Golden Fire Spewing sword of the Gods'
Granted, AH is not an RPG, but the whole concept of trying to not die every 5 minutes does have some appeal.