Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: qts on March 26, 2002, 10:54:44 AM
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For many people, getting 50 perks is quite an easy achievement, but for others, like me, it takes a long time. Even 10 perkies is hard. It would be really nice - and a real benefit and motivation to people like me - if there were some cheap perks. Perhaps the Gigant as a troop transport for 5 or 10 perks? (The likelihood of actually landing the thing and thus retaining your perks being near zero). Perhaps being able to start at 10000 feet? Rear 50 mm cannon on the Lancaster?
I'll open the floor for possible perks in the 5-15 pt range.
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LA-7 should be a 5-15 perk plane. :)
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GM1 boost on Fw-190A8, it was rarely fitted but would be a big boost in level speed.
Twin 20mm cannon gondolas for Fw-190A8.. That's 8x20mm, nothing could live!
R4M on Me262, 24 rocket salvo... be good against buffs too.
-SW
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
LA-7 should be a 5-15 perk plane. :)
Actually, it was mentioned in the Spit XIV thread, but I wouldn't mind seeing all ENY < 20 planes perked a little bit (sort of like CT setups of the past). I'm not talking a huge points either, just enough to make flying to the death just a little painful for the planes in question.
I guess I'm in favor of costs in the less than 8 point range of the Chog.
Just my $0.02
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Good suggestion alpo..i missed that one in that other thread. How about allowing new accounts (not two week freebies, but those who actually sign up) 50 free perkies or something to that manner with your suggestion?
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New accounts should start off with enough perk points to get one shot at the 262. If they are dumb and take it up their first flight and lose it, they're SOL. Gotta build up the perkies with a 202 then.
-SW
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P-47D-11 perk accessories:
- Paddle blade propeller
- Over boosted engine ;)
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Here is a the problem with perks I think. How many perks you got rip? How 'bout you SW? Heck, even as bad as I am, I've got over 2000. Even if I did fly a perk regularly, it would take a while for me to lose all the points.
Here is a guy who is admittedly having difficulty obtaining perks while decent sticks have lots of points. I bet qts is getting killed by good pilots in perk planes too. The more we perk, the more it hurts the new/inexperienced folks.
Wonder how many more are out there in this same situation but we don't hear about them.
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
New accounts should start off with enough perk points to get one shot at the 262. If they are dumb and take it up their first flight and lose it, they're SOL. Gotta build up the perkies with a 202 then.
-SW
It would give them an option to try any of the perk planes, some more than once and they would learn the penalties involved with piling one up...
:)
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Twin 20mm cannon gondolas for Fw-190A8.. That's 8x20mm, nothing could live!
Actually, that's 6 mausers only with 20mm cannon packs on.
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I was just talking about additional accessories, not perking anything we currently have. I also think new accounts should get "free perks", but work it like the 2 week system.. you can only get it "one time".
I've got close to 1800 perks, I haven't flown a perk plane in a long while. I did manage to lose a several hundred to 262 fiascos.. I was down to 1400 perk points about 3 months ago, I'm up to about 1788 or so right now from flying the higher ENY planes and getting more kills on lower ENY value planes than higher ENY value planes. Not many people fly higher ENY planes, which makes it a regular perk point harvest. Take off in a 190A5, 205 or whatever and get a couple of kills on Spits. Guaranteed 9 perk points even if you don't land.
Some people just don't get it, they sit there in the lower ENY planes (SpitIX, La7, N1K2, P51D) and wonder why they can't accumulate a lot of perk points.
I'm not saying qts does this, I dunno what he flies... but some other people out there..
I like the idea of having an existing non-perked aircraft and allowing "perk options" on it.
Do I believe the La7 should be perked? No, but the 3 x B-20 loadout should be a cheap perk option for it and make the 2x ShVAK load out the standard "free" loadout.
I'd be willing to pay 20 perk points, the equivelant of 2 1/2 F4U-1Cs, for GM-1 boost and twin 20mm underwing gondolas for a 190A-8.
Then perk points would be of some use, as it is now perk points are virtually useless for me. Except the few times I "feel" like taking a 262 up.
-SW
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Oh, that's right I forgot the outboard cannons were removed....
But still, that's a helluva lotta cannons. :-)
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I was just talking about additional accessories, not perking anything we currently have. I also think new accounts should get "free perks", but work it like the 2 week system.. you can only get it "one time".
I've got close to 1800 perks, I haven't flown a perk plane in a long while. I did manage to lose a several hundred to 262 fiascos.. I was down to 1400 perk points about 3 months ago, I'm up to about 1788 or so right now from flying the higher ENY planes and getting more kills on lower ENY value planes than higher ENY value planes. Not many people fly higher ENY planes, which makes it a regular perk point harvest. Take off in a 190A5, 205 or whatever and get a couple of kills on Spits. Guaranteed 9 perk points even if you don't land.
Some people just don't get it, they sit there in the lower ENY planes (SpitIX, La7, N1K2, P51D) and wonder why they can't accumulate a lot of perk points.
I'm not saying qts does this, I dunno what he flies... but some other people out there..
I like the idea of having an existing non-perked aircraft and allowing "perk options" on it.
Do I believe the La7 should be perked? No, but the 3 x B-20 loadout should be a cheap perk option for it and make the 2x ShVAK load out the standard "free" loadout.
I'd be willing to pay 20 perk points, the equivelant of 2 1/2 F4U-1Cs, for GM-1 boost and twin 20mm underwing gondolas for a 190A-8.
Then perk points would be of some use, as it is now perk points are virtually useless for me. Except the few times I "feel" like taking a 262 up.
-SW
Just to clarify. I wasn't arguing your position. I just mentioned you because I assumed you had alot of points too, lol.
You are right. There are some who wonder why they don't have many points. I mean after all, they rule in the La7! Thats what one of em told me anyway.
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Of course when this new "perk accessories" feature is enabled (1.10), all perks should be cleared.
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Why should perks be cleared?
I don't care, I can easily build them back up. But I want to know why they need to be cleared? If they are all going to be cleared then lets start it all from scratch and give everyone an instant "perk gift". The same one new accounts get, so that no one gets totally screwed.
-SW
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"Some people just don't get it, they sit there in the lower ENY planes (SpitIX, La7, N1K2, P51D) and wonder why they can't accumulate a lot of perk points. "
Its not that these people are stupid, it's that they don't have any FUN flying those other airplanes. And what's the point of playing AH at all if it's not fun?
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Apache
Here is a guy who is admittedly having difficulty obtaining perks while decent sticks have lots of points. I bet qts is getting killed by good pilots in perk planes too. The more we perk, the more it hurts the new/inexperienced folks.
Wonder how many more are out there in this same situation but we don't hear about them.
Actually, I was one of those perk envy pilots just a couple of months ago. Of course, I didn't realize what ENY values meant in relationship to perks. All I knew was that I could get a couple of kills per flight before dying in a SpitIX. If I EVER registered a two perk point mission it was cause for celebration. I was getting kills but never building the cache of perks I heard other pilots acquired per mission.
Once I figured out how perk points were generated, I finally started to try and discovered what OTHER types of planes could be flown with higher ENYs and get kills in. I discovered the 109F4 for air to air and air to PT boat ;) While F6f/Jug JABO mission became another perk gathering avenue which I had never explored before.
Basically, the perks are there if you know where to look.
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What do I usually fly? Spit (V or IX), Mossie, Lanc, Goon, Field gun. My difficulty in accumulating perks seems to be an inability to shoot others down at all, not in flying a high-value bird and actually getting kills.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
Its not that these people are stupid, it's that they don't have any FUN flying those other airplanes. And what's the point of playing AH at all if it's not fun?
J_A_B
I never said these people were stupid, you did.
Whether or not they have fun isn't the point. Making it fun is the point. I may not have fun flying a SpitI, but I'm going to find a way to make it fun.
And the fact is, they just don't get it.
Problem: "I can't accumulate perks, but I mainly fly _____" Any low ENY value planes.
Answer: "Well fly a plane with a high ENY value"
If you want to fly a 262, you gotta pay the price.
You can even rack up fighter perk points if you up in a F/B with a lot of ordinance and destroy one of the many unguarded (protected by ack only) facilities.
De-ack it, bomb it, strafe it, basically flatten it. You'll get out of there with a good amount of perk points, atleast 20 if you destroy a lot of stuff.
I took my lumps to get perk points, whether it was fun or not- I got them.
-SW
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
I took my lumps to get perk points, whether it was fun or not- I got them.
-SW
Fun... as JAB noted is crucial. Which is why when I'm in perk building mode, I go out loaded and hunt a nice GV or PT patch. It's always fun to be able to drop bombs, rockets, etc. and get a nice kill message in the process. The 109f with gondolas vs PTs was my favorite method of perk building.
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The perk discussion rouses its head every so often. Out of everything that has been proposed here is what I think should be added/changed.
1) The ability to give perks to other flyers. “.give xxx fperks flyerA” “.give vperks xxx flyerB” “.give bperks xxx flyerC”.
2) The ability to repair damage to the aircraft. Sortie ends, but kill streak continues.
3) Add extra’s such as SW’s example with the 2/3 cannon load out with the LA7 as well as the FW example.
4) Grant enough perks for the highest aircraft available to new accounts.
I would also like to see an amount of perk points given to every player at the beginning of each tour. These perks can’t be rolled over to the next tour and must be used during the tour they were issued. There has been some staunch resistances to this type of, I believe the name was given by Wotan, “welfare perks”. I would probably start it out at 70, which would be enough for a Tempest, but not enough for a 262 to alleviate some type of “jet day” in AH at the beginning of each tour. I my self do not have a problem with this.
As for gaining perks quickly, my suggestion would be to up a YakT where a lot of GV’s are spawning. They can rack up quick with a few osti kills. It can also go a long way to improve gunnery. Your only carrying about 40 of those cannon rounds but gv’s pop just like ticks with a few good hits.
Zippatuh
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Can I redirect the thread to the original subject? We need some low-value perks. The question is what should they be?
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qts try Bf-110G-2; I got 9,9 points from a fight where I shot down 3 spits and a lanc and 14 points when I was vulching a field.
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Once more, the whole problem is the perk system.
It is the worst solution that was brougth to AH only to avoid imlement a RPS. In the begining that was fine ehen tha satable was only filled with a few mid-late war planes.
But now and in the future will be not the case.
If the game keep adding more and more perked planes and still worst, perked goodies and apliances, the fun will go away for many people.
If yo fly TO get peks, you are not flying for fun. You get stressed.
Once you get some perks and use them, again you may stress to fear of lossing them.
The fun gone again.
The perks are for the hot-rods flyers and for there who spent their lifes playing. for the rest of the mortals is just frustrating.
I have some 470 perks, I need more than one month to cumulate 200 perks....I cant afford to use then if I had a prefered perked ride/goodie.
In a couple of years the perked system will be completely outdated/outclased.
BRING RPS TO MA!!!!!
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Originally posted by AKSWulfe
Some people just don't get it, they sit there in the lower ENY planes (SpitIX, La7, N1K2, P51D) and wonder why they can't accumulate a lot of perk points.
I don't buy that, I'm almost exclusively a P51D jock, I've earned over 2000 perkies in it, admittedly I've lost about 1000 of these by ripping the wings off 262s etc. If ya want perkies go land yer kills instead of looking for that extra kill. Remember each time you make some kills you are now flying a perk plane, because if you die you will lose some of the perkpoints you just earned.
I am the first to admit to being an averageish pilot. However I can go out and earn around 50-70 perkies on a good night if I fly with perkies in mind. If I can do it then so can 1/2 the arena. The guys who can't, well flying a 202 is not gonna work cause if ya can't land kills in a spitfire then your not gonna do it in a 202.
I would like to see newbies getting some free perkies, but not immediately because the first thing they gonna do is auger a 262 on take off after playing AH for 1 hour, hell some of them won't even know what this perk thing is all about. Make it a 20hour anniversary present in each category, say 200 fighter and 120 bomber. Gotta also say I don't like the idea of freebies each tour, I think that would defeat the whole purpose of the perk system.
Gremlin.
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Maybe perks could be weighted against player rank... not ridiculously, of course, but enough to give newer players an occasional treat.
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Dux,
That would be a good idea if the player rank actually meant anything.
Grem.
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Don't forget that some poster in this thread fly more in one week than some subscriber in one whole month.
My position is the following (yet another opinion :D) :
Reset perk at each start of TOD.
Give a minimun Perk amount at start of TOD (perk walfare ;))
Reduce perk cost.
Look at CT it work with this kind of setup (I think).
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even if the guy gets enough perks to fly he will die horribly because, if nothing else, he has no time in the plane.
Get rid of the perkies or, "veteran welfare" and have a free perk plane day or so at the end of every tour. people could fly the perk rides for free until they puked and get decent in em. I think a lot of so called vets want to keep the perk welfare system so that they can continue to have a huge advantage over the little guy. Real lowlifes in my opinion.
lazs
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Originally posted by qts
Can I redirect the thread to the original subject? We need some low-value perks. The question is what should they be?
Off the top of my head (can't remember all the ENY < 20 planes). I would like the...
Spit IX
La 7
N1K2
All in the 1-3 perk range... just MHO (actually... I don't think the N1K2 has the teeth it used to have when it had UFO energy) ;)
Originally posted by Orko
If yo fly TO get peks, you are not flying for fun. You get stressed.
Once you get some perks and use them, again you may stress to fear of lossing them.
The fun gone again.
Stress to get perks??? Hardly. I just didn't know HOW to accumulate them. The key is to find one of the lesser used planes... YES, that might mean "a little harder to fly". But as Staga noted... blowing away a few Spits in a lower ENY plane is not only a good way to build perks, it's down right FUN!! :D
I wouldn't mind new PAYING players to get a deposit of perks to spend. I don't think I would want it to be in the free two weeks, there are already too many questions about how to use the radio, change country, "can I be a gunner", "can I get a gunner" from people who disappear after their two weeks are up.
I can only imagine the "I hit a building with my 262 and now I can't fly one" tirades on open channel ;) Let them learn the game basics before getting the advanced stuff which would only upset them to lose.
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Dux, that really isn't a good idea either.
"Overall" rank is just that, it requires you to do every category to get a good overall rank. I just fly fighters, occasionally attack runs, almost never bombers and never GVs/PTs.
My rank/score is fairly low, and on top of that I don't fly enough time a month to get my rank very high.
So basically I'd be treated as a "newbie" with regards to perks and get a bunch of freebies, which I really don't need.
Gremlin, yes, you are right if you land you get 1.25x the amount of perk points you earned that flight. If you die, you don't lose any perk points you just don't get the multiplier for landing.
However, I gaurantee you that if you get 2 kills of SpitIXs in the 109F-4 you will get atleast 6 perk points if you don't land. I actually think it's higher than that. However, if you do the same in the P51D you will only get like 2 perk points because the P51D has a closer value to the SpitIX.
So while you may get some perk points for landing kills in a P51D, you will typically get 3 or 4 times that if you land those kills in a 109F-4 or 109G-2 (load gondolas onto either of those and they are deadly snapshooters).
My point isn't that you don't get points for flying planes with lower ENY values, it's that you don't get as many points as you could with higher ENY value planes.
qts, I believe P51D, La7, SpitIX, N1K2, 190D9 and 109G10 would be good low perk point planes. Between 3 and 6 points.
-SW
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"I believe P51D, La7, SpitIX, N1K2, 190D9 and 109G10 would be good low perk point planes. Between 3 and 6 points. "
This is SW's quote but this reply isn't directed solely at him:
Since this idea would destroy any reason for my to pay for AH, how about also paying my subscription for me if you "perk nazis" get your way?
J_A_B
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Well, I was suggesting this for qts' low perk value thingie.
Question JAB, would you give up on AH if it went to a RPS type deal too?
Just curious.
-SW
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Yes I would SW. I never even considered getting a subscription to WarBirds (despite the fact that I really liked the game) solely because of the RPS.
I'm here for my own reasons. However, I'm not selfish. One of the reasons you see my advocating for AH to employ multiple arenas rather than just one MA, is you'd be able to use somewhat different settings in each of them. MY fun doesn't have to get in the way of YOUR fun. Everyone can be happy.
J_A_B
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I agree, but we all know that seperate arenas divide things up and most will go to one place while some will go to another and still some insist on getting into the overcrowded arena.... because their buds are in there or whatever.. I dunno.
But as we get more early war planes, somethings gonna have to be done about these late '44-'45 planes. Maybe make them only flyable from rear fields (ala Lazs' idea) or to seperate them into individual arenas (early, mid, late) or to perk the late war rides while leaving the early and mid rides free.
Not my game, I dunno what the answer is. While you may like late war planes, there's another guy who likes the early war planes.
When you've got an arena full of late war monsters capable of dealing death by snapshot and gettin' the hell outta dodge, and you're in a early war Ki-43... well somein's gotta give.
What it is, I dunno. But it's hardly fair for someone in a Ki-43 (two 7.92MGs... sweet jebus, gonna tickle someone to death?) to be forced to fly in an arena full of untamed late war rides.
We all know how people think, there's only a handful of simmers in AH... they are the ones who go for the plane they like or planes they like despite what everyone else is flying.... while the rest of the players are simply gamers. The planes don't matter, they'd fly any plane that gives them any advantage.
I dunno, but somein's gonna give sometime soon.
-SW
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Yeah, it's not an easy situation to deal with. There isn't any single flawless solution. As you point out, the "multiple MA" concept isn't perfect, although with proper number restrictions I feel such a system could work, at least better than what we have right now.
One problem is right now AH doesn't have the player base to support more than a single second MA. If it was to open a second MA (and presumably provide a smaller limit on the current MA), which planeset would you recommend for it? It'd be a waste to have it set up exactly the same as the current MA.
Or perhaps someone can think of something better. Lets try to get some useful discussion out of this thread :)
J_A_B
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http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=49311
(http://www.swoop.com/images/logo_small.jpg)
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I saw that thread Swoop. Honestly, I think a system like that could work.
But just perk the late '44-'45 planes. People can still reasonably fight an A6M2 versus a 190A5. Would you want to? Prolly not.
However, this is not something everyone would agree with.
What plane set would I use in the 2nd arena? Well shoot, this is pretty easy (for me anyway)... I'd leave the current MA with the early war planes unperked ('40-mid '43) and then take the other planes (mid '43- '45) and place them in the second arena. All fantasy planes, or rare planes would be perked in the '43-'45 arena. Jets, Shinden, F4U-4, P51H, P47M- all perks. Spit14, Tempest would be within their realm in a late war arena.. so I don't think perking them would make sense.
For the '40-mid '43 arena, perk the planes with more dominating performance. What are they? I dunno, I've never played in an arena with just '40-'43 planes.
This is just my opinion of course, but this would essentially divide the players.
However, if there was a way to create a portal, then maybe a system with more than one arena would work. What I mean is, all arenas are on the same map but there's two seperate wars going on. I think someone else had this idea before. Maybe it was Lazs, or even you JAB, can't remember.
Maybe this isn't feasible with today's tech.. maybe in a couple of years. Dunno really, but there's gotta be a good way of doing it fairly.
-SW
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"However, if there was a way to create a portal, then maybe a system with more than one arena would work. What I mean is, all arenas are on the same map but there's two seperate wars going on. "
Hmm....we have 512 x 512 arenas on thw way. 4 times the size of what we have now....
I have an idea sort of like Lazs' idea haven't thought it over, not thinking of feasability, just total brainstorming going on:
Divide this new map into 4 areas. Each area could have its own planeset--one arena with ALL propeller planes free, one set up with current free MA planes free, one with up to '43 free, and the last section with only '41 planes free. Essentially you'd have 4 MA's without dividing the player base. The perk system would exist solely to limit a very few aircraft which would dominate in their own planeset area (like the 262). Although I'd use YEAR as a rough indicator of where to put a given plane, I'd divide them up by abilities and not be too strict with the year number (like a 1945 C-hog would be allowed in the 1944 section but maybe perked like it currently is or maybe free, but a 1944 Spit14 would probably stay restricted to the late-war area (free there of course).
So people who like a certain planeset would never find "their" area totally over-run, each country would need an un-capturable (and well-protected by flak) home base for each country. People like me could always fly their preferred airplane, but in order to win the map reset, you'd have to fight in all 4 areas so all 4 areas would see use. So if say the 1944 section was "won", there'd still be a fight there but the main action would shift elsewhere (sort of like how the A1 furballers on NDISLES have their fun without really impacting the rest of the map). Reset goals would have to change somewhat, perhaps to have a country reduced to only having its 4 "home" airfields. Resets would obviously be very tough to accomplish and would need a LOT of coordination--so increase the bonus for winning :) Further modification could be made; this is just a brainstorm.
Oh, and provide 40K mountains or UFO's or something between the 4 areas to prevent someone from taking a TEMP into the 1941 side :)
How's that sound?
J_A_B
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That sounds GREAT , JAB.
I think I have read before something like that.
This would be the best balance with RPS and perks.
But I really doubt that HT will implement such a revolutionary solution.
But got my vote though.
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Let me toss out a modification to JAB idea that does away with the 40K mountains:
Make the MA an arena that is, say 256 East-West by 1024 North-South. Divide this in the North-South direction into four 256x256 area. In the Southermost section only 1941 and earlier planes are available, 1943 and earlier in the next, 1944 and ealier in the next and 1945 and earlier fall into the northern section. Each of the sections is divided from each other by a mountain range in the 15K range. No other restrictions and no UFO's on patrol.
If someone really wants to climb into a LA-7 and fly all the way to the 1941 arena just to hunt Spit I's then they can go for it. They will "earn" this by the time spent flying.
On the other hand, if someone wants to up a Spit I and try to mine perks hunting 262s, they can do just like they always have been able to by starting out in the 1945 area.
The only problem I can really think of with this is that it might be hard to balance out the Bishop/Rook/Knight starting position in each of the areas.
I'm not really familiar with the map editing capablities and restrictions but might we not be able to use existing maps for this simply by duplicating them four times and putting a mountain range between?
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I thought some more about this little brainstorm idea I had (again thanks to Lazs for the inspiration)..
512 x 512 maps might not currently be necessary; diving a 256 square map into 4 sections should work--the population density would still be reduced by more efficiently using the available space (less of the map would be sitting empty).
To further balance out the population and keep massive 50-plane gangfests from developing (and to help reduce the horrible lag caused by such congestion) each base would have its own PLAYER LIMIT--if too many people were in the area of said base, no new planes could take off from there. AirWarrior used this sort of system to great effect.
Each of the separate "areas" could be "won" separately, but the entire map would not reset until all 4 sections had been "won". A "won" area would stay "won" until the other 3 were also "won". Base capture would not be disabled in an area where the "winner" was already determined (so a country in that area could make a comeback from 1 base), but this would not do anything to help them "win" the rest of the war. A small perk bonus could be awarded for winning an individual area. Each country would have an un-capturable MAIN airfield in each "area" well-protected by flak (presumable this airfield would be near several factories and depots which would also have flak); this would allow each "area" to constantly remain active. The ZONE limit for a main airfield should also be higher than for other airfields.
The winner of the RESET would be determined by who wins the most areas. Should there be a tie (which would probably happen a lot), then the winner would be the country with the most bases in its posession. If this was also a TIE there would not be a reset until one of the TIE countries managed to achieve an extra base. The perk award for winning the RESET would be larger than the award for merely winning an individual area.
Country start locations--each country would start in a random location in each of the 4 mini-areas; in addition each of the mini-areas themselves would randomly change positions. So one week the "early war Bish" might be in the "north section, left position" then a week later it might be in "west section, lower position". This means you could use the same map for a long time without fighting in the same location.
The RADIO would need to be re-worked. CH1 and CH2 would only broadcast to people in your opwn "area". Two new channels would be created (lets call them 100 and 200). "100" would broadcast to EVERYONE in the game who was tuned to it (sort of like CH1 currently is); however you would not have this channel tuned by default. Channel "200" would do the same, but it would be country-specific.
To divide up the areas several options are possible. You could have the "big mountains". Or those damn beer-stealing UFO's could start to attack people (my favorite). Or, for the realism-oriented, you could just slop a bunch of long-range, super-powerful super-accurate undestroyable flak guns in this "no man's land". Either way, I'd have the boundry of "no man's land" drawn on the clipboard map so people didn't accidentally fly into it. Perhaps, one day, this "no man's land" could be flushed out into a "no plane area" with lots of GV and INF action.
Obviously this system is not currently possible in AH because the game doesn't support the necessary settings. But AH is always growing and HTC is known to incorporate good ideas. Anyone else have their own ideas?
J_A_B