Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Udie on March 26, 2002, 03:18:48 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2002/LAW/03/26/slavery.reparations/index.html
Want to make some non-racist people racist? This is a quick way to do it in my opinion. I don't know who to be pissed at more, the lawyers or te race baters.
Hopefuly it will be thrown out.....
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Another Article (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/nm/20020326/ts_nm/rights_slavery_lawsuit_dc_3&cid=578)
I have a dream... I have a paycheck...
:rolleyes:
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I read recently about an American POW from WW2 suing Mitsubishi (I think, large Japanese mining firm) for his unpaid slave labors during the war. If an existing company can be found liable for slave trading and or unpaid labor then what would be the difference?
edit:"Both Aetna and CSX said slavery was a regrettable chapter in U.S. history but the events in question occurred so long ago that a courtroom was not the proper venue to decide on reparations. "
Sounds like they are caving already.
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The POW did it personally.
The suit against CSX, Aetna, etc. is for treatment of people that are long since dead and buried as are the people that did this to them.
by David Horowitz.
Ten Reasons Why Reparations for Blacks is a Bad Idea for Blacks - and Racist Too (http://www.frontpagemag.com/notepad/default.htm)
One
There Is No Single Group Clearly Responsible For The Crime Of Slavery
Black Africans and Arabs were responsible for enslaving the ancestors of African-Americans. There were 3,000 black slave-owners in the ante-bellum United States. Are reparations to be paid by their descendants too?
Two
There Is No One Group That Benefited Exclusively From Its Fruits
The claim for reparations is premised on the false assumption that only whites have benefited from slavery. If slave labor created wealth for Americans, then obviously it has created wealth for black Americans as well, including the descendants of slaves. The GNP of black America is so large that it makes the African-American community the 10th most prosperous "nation" in the world. American blacks on average enjoy per capita incomes in the range of twenty to fifty times that of blacks living in any of the African nations from which they were kidnapped.
Three
Only A Tiny Minority Of White Americans Ever Owned Slaves, And Others Gave Their Lives To Free Them
Only a tiny minority of Americans ever owned slaves. This is true even for those who lived in the ante-bellum South where only one white in five was a slaveholder. Why should their descendants owe a debt? What about the descendants of the 350,000 Union soldiers who died to free the slaves? They gave their lives. What possible moral principle would ask them to pay (through their descendants) again?
Four
America Today Is A Multi-Ethnic Nation and Most Americans Have No Connection (Direct Or Indirect) To Slavery
The two great waves of American immigration occurred after 1880 and then after 1960. What rationale would require Vietnamese boat people, Russian refuseniks, Iranian refugees, and Armenian victims of the Turkish persecution, Jews, Mexicans Greeks, or Polish, Hungarian, Cambodian and Korean victims of Communism, to pay reparations to American blacks?
Five
The Historical Precedents Used To Justify The Reparations Claim Do Not Apply, And The Claim Itself Is Based On Race Not Injury
The historical precedents generally invoked to justify the reparations claim are payments to Jewish survivors of the Holocaust, Japanese-Americans and African- American victims of racial experiments in Tuskegee, or racial outrages in Rosewood and Oklahoma City. But in each case, the recipients of reparations were the direct victims of the injustice or their immediate families. This would be the only case of reparations to people who were not immediately affected and whose sole qualification to receive reparations would be racial. As has already been pointed out, during the slavery era, many blacks were free men or slave-owners themselves, yet the reparations claimants make no distinction between the roles blacks actually played in the injustice itself. Randall Robinson's book on reparations, The Debt, which is the manifesto of the reparations movement is pointedly sub-titled "What America Owes To Blacks." If this is not racism, what is?
Six
The Reparations Argument Is Based On The Unfounded Claim That All African-American Descendants of Slaves Suffer From The Economic Consequences Of Slavery And Discrimination
No evidence-based attempt has been made to prove that living individuals have been adversely affected by a slave system that was ended over 150 years ago. But there is plenty of evidence the hardships that occurred were hardships that individuals could and did overcome. The black middle-class in America is a prosperous community that is now larger in absolute terms than the black underclass. Does its existence not suggest that economic adversity is the result of failures of individual character rather than the lingering after-effects of racial discrimination and a slave system that ceased to exist well over a century ago? West Indian blacks in America are also descended from slaves but their average incomes are equivalent to the average incomes of whites (and nearly 25% higher than the average incomes of American born blacks). How is it that slavery adversely affected one large group of descendants but not the other? How can government be expected to decide an issue that is so subjective - and yet so critical - to the case?
Seven
The Reparations Claim Is One More Attempt To Turn African-Americans Into Victims. It Sends A Damaging Message To The African-American Community.
The renewed sense of grievance -- which is what the claim for reparations will inevitably create -- is neither a constructive nor a helpful message for black leaders to be sending to their communities and to others. To focus the social passions of African-Americans on what some Americans may have done to their ancestors fifty or a hundred and fifty years ago is to burden them with a crippling sense of victim-hood. How are the millions of refugees from tyranny and genocide who are now living in America going to receive these claims, moreover, except as demands for special treatment, an extravagant new handout that is only necessary because some blacks can't seem to locate the ladder of opportunity within reach of others -- many less privileged than themselves?
Eight
Reparations To African Americans Have Already Been Paid
Since the passage of the Civil Rights Acts and the advent of the Great Society in 1965, trillions of dollars in transfer payments have been made to African-Americans in the form of welfare benefits and racial preferences (in contracts, job placements and educational admissions) - all under the rationale of redressing historic racial grievances. It is said that reparations are necessary to achieve a healing between African-Americans and other Americans. If trillion dollar restitutions and a wholesale rewriting of American law (in order to accommodate racial preferences) for African-Americans is not enough to achieve a "healing," what will?
Nine
What About The Debt Blacks Owe To America?
Slavery existed for thousands of years before the Atlantic slave trade was born, and in all societies. But in the thousand years of its existence, there never was an anti-slavery movement until white Christians - Englishmen and Americans -- created one. If not for the anti-slavery attitudes and military power of white Englishmen and Americans, the slave trade would not have been brought to an end. If not for the sacrifices of white soldiers and a white American president who gave his life to sign the Emancipation Proclamation, blacks in America would still be slaves. If not for the dedication of Americans of all ethnicities and colors to a society based on the principle that all men are created equal, blacks in America would not enjoy the highest standard of living of blacks anywhere in the world, and indeed one of the highest standards of living of any people in the world. They would not enjoy the greatest freedoms and the most thoroughly protected individual rights anywhere. Where is the gratitude of black America and its leaders for those gifts?
Ten
The Reparations Claim Is A Separatist Idea That Sets African-Americans Against The Nation That Gave Them Freedom
Blacks were here before the Mayflower. Who is more American than the descendants of African slaves? For the African-American community to isolate itself even further from America is to embark on a course whose implications are troubling. Yet the African-American community has had a long-running flirtation with separatists, nationalists and the political left, who want African-Americans to be no part of America's social contract. African Americans should reject this temptation.
For all America's faults, African-Americans have an enormous stake in their country and its heritage. It is this heritage that is really under attack by the reparations movement. The reparations claim is one more assault on America, conducted by racial separatists and the political left. It is an attack not only on white Americans, but on all Americans -- especially African-Americans.
America's African-American citizens are the richest and most privileged black people alive -- a bounty that is a direct result of the heritage that is under assault. The American idea needs the support of its African-American citizens. But African-Americans also need the support of the American idea. For it is this idea that led to the principles and institutions that have set African-Americans - and all of us -- free.
Eleven - We gave the stinking Oscar to Halle Berry. What else do you want?
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LOL, loved number 11.
You caught me, with the big spinner minnow out there.:D
My sons have brought up this "40 acres and a mule" promise that is popular among African Americans. I told them to go get a job to feed the dam mule, cause I aint keeping him. And if they ever get the 40 acres it'll probably be in Nebraska or Iowa or God forbid....Wyoming, and worth about $10 an acre.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
I read recently about an American POW from WW2 suing Mitsubishi (I think, large Japanese mining firm) for his unpaid slave labors during the war. If an existing company can be found liable for slave trading and or unpaid labor then what would be the difference?
First off we were at war with japan and the guy was a POW, not a slave. Second, as regretable as it is slavery was once legal in this country. That was a very bad injustice that was made right in the civil war at the cost of tens of thousands of lives. The companies in question did nothing "ilegal" at the time. It was all very unfortunately very legal for them to do what they did. That would be like making beer ilegal today and arresting me tomorrow for drinking it last month. Should I sue Egypt for the slaves they used? How about the Sudan today?
edit:"Both Aetna and CSX said slavery was a regrettable chapter in U.S. history but the events in question occurred so long ago that a courtroom was not the proper venue to decide on reparations. "
Sounds like they are caving already.
God I hope not. But you know I don't really blame them after 30 years of jessy jackson's extortion on American companies. They are probobly scared toejameless.
Nobody in my family ever owned a slave. Why in the hell should I have to pay for what somebody elses ancestors did? Where's the justice in that? How about the black ancestors of blacks who sold slaves in Africa? do they have to pay?
This looks like a snakey lawyers attempt to make an end run around something that he knows has zero chances of happening through the legislative branch. They certainly have the right to file this suite, but I think it does race relations much more harm than good. Yet another device to divide us......
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Originally posted by midnight Target
LOL, loved number 11.
You caught me, with the big spinner minnow out there.:D
My sons have brought up this "40 acres and a mule" promise that is popular among African Americans. I told them to go get a job to feed the dam mule, cause I aint keeping him. And if they ever get the 40 acres it'll probably be in Nebraska or Iowa or God forbid....Wyoming, and worth about $10 an acre.
hehe :) sounds like you gave them a good dose of reality :)
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(clears throat, begins to get on soapbox but realizes there aren't enough Efluff'n Squelcher t-shirts to give out should I troll this issue, so puts on boxing gloves to prevent typing)
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troll away
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Just another ridiculous waste of taxpayer money. So...if my relatives were serfs or slaves in medieval Europe, can I sue the modern government of Germany?
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Watch yer mouths about Wyoming, punks.
:p
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No offense meant Kratzer, I am actually being approached by a firm in Casper. We've been dancing around the issue for a year now. He keeps saying he's going to fly me up there, but I think he's waiting for that good weather day.;)
The thought of slower pace and much fewer people kinda sounds good to me....even with the 40 below winters.
:cool:
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Im from Croatia, formerly part of Yugoslavia.
My area was invaded and occupied and oppresed by the turks.
I demand money from Turkey.
My area was invaded by the Germans who even had wehrmach officers sleeping in the house I grew up in.
I demand back rent from Germany or the Bundeswehr.
I am a Slavic and German by ethnicity. The English word "slave" comes from the word Slav. My people were so badly enslaved at one point in history they named the diddlying institution after us.
I demand some serious money from somebody.
My family is also of German origin and so they were put into Communist Concentracion camps after WW2. Many died including some great grandfathers of mine.
I demand reparations.
So pay up squeakes........
Oh I wonder when these amazinhunks will demand reparations from Africa. The Slaves were exclusivley captured in Africa by Africans, do these people bear responsibilty?
I dont like the looks of that Dierdra squeak, I hope somebody shoots her in the head! :D
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Actually, we like to pretend that Casper isn't part of Wyoming.
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Thanks Grunherz...was trying to put those same thoughts into words when I read your post.
btw,now that private clubs,country clubs,schools ect. must be open to everyone we need to do away with Black Miss America,Black Governor/Mayor conventions ect. :rolleyes:
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This is diddlying rediculous... I have a question for our "black, African-American, dark pigmented, caucasianally challenged" (or whatever the proper PC term is nowadays) members of the community - what are you thoughts? If I was black - or if the sides were reversed I would be disgusted by my own "people." Of course I belive that a human is a human... period. About the Oscars - Im pretty sure Mr. Washington was insulted that he won the Oscar for best actor... the performance didnt warrent it and everyone, including him, knew it. I wouldnt want to accept an award given to me for a "feel good" reason and Im sure he feel conflicted about it. I didnt see Halley's movie, so I cant comment there. Regardless - before the awards I saw Will Smith being interviewed - I dont recall the exact quote but it impressed me - something to the effect of "All this talk of walls being knocked down for the black actors, I try and stay away from it, Id rather be judged as a human being, pure and simple." Very well said Will.
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ok you're all paid up and even....now stop spraying your name on the side of my apartment.
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I say pay! However, there are strings attached:D
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Hell the Romans enslaved half the world. We could own Italy. Let do it! Class action, baby.
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Dont forget Alexander and Ghengis Khan, who BTW had the largest empire of all time controling China, Russia, India etc. There were even Mongols in France at one point!
Oh wait we cant do that one is gay and the other isn't white......
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In afternoon New York Stock Exchange (news - web sites) trading, Aetna shares were up 44 cents at $37.78, CSX shares were up 66 cents at 37.55, and FleetBoston shares were up 24 cents at $35.38.
Kanth
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Egypt owes all the Jews back pay !
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Being German and Polish I can get rich quick here! Lets see...
1. Sue US, UK, France, USSR for backpay from total devastation at the hands of the Allies in WWII!!
2. Turn around and sue Germany and USSR for thier mistreatment of Pols during WWII!!
And hell, thats only 1 war.
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I have very little knowledge on the subject of black-history, one can't know everything... but I seem to have in my mind that many of the blacks shipped from Africa were already slaves in Africa (tribes conquered and enslaved each other) and sold as commodity to the trade-ships sailing for America and were not caught and stolen by chasing them around with butterfly nets. Is this kernel of knowledge incorrect?
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Yes, that is true. The slave trade in Africa was widespread and a common business practice throughout the continent. Slaves were captured in the interior and brought to the coast or to the mid east, across the Sahara on foot, for sale, or of course they were kept to work for or be killed by for pleasure or games by their African captors. The vast majority were captured by Africans! In fact I have never heard of a white slave capturing expedition to the interior of Africa!
There was no racial or racist motive to the slave trade. White European slave buyers bought from their friends the Black African slave dealers. There were very good relationships between them, many of the African slave traders sent their children, THEIR BLACK AFRICAN CHILDREN, to the US and Europe for education. There were even black women who were very successful and wealthy slave traders. In fact the Europeans were subordinate to the authority of the black slave trader cities' government. They paid taxes to and had to follow rules set by the BLACK AFRICAN slave traders if they wanted to maintain the trade relationship.
England’s banning of the slave trade in the early 1800s drew loud protests from Africa! Believe it or not....
BTW most of the wealthy slave trading families in Africa are still around as the African slave markets survived in good numbers until the early 1900s. Plus IIRC there is still slavery in the Sudan....
So there, who is getting sued next?
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We all but wiped out the Native Americans....now, they get all kinds of free stuff for the "sins of the past".
How about the Nazis? Gee, we wiped them out pretty badly too. Shouldn't we be giving away school scholarships to that poor minority too?
The countless, and foolish, examples are abundant.
Live in the present, learn from the past.
This reparations thing is merely a way for the present to cash in on their relatives.
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Denmark has been in a state of war with Sweden for more than *142 years* since the 1200's.
Just the reparation between Denmark and Sweden would knock our economic system out.
Then we have the Viking raids. We're gonna lose some money there.
Then we have the neanderthal claim. Some of us are more neanderthal than others - and how much reparation do you want for an entire species going extinct?
This is a stupid move from African Americans. They aren't the slaves. They live in a very wealthy nation where they have great opportunities for success.
As has been pointed out, they're trying to force families of soldiers WHO GAVE THEIR LIFE to give slaves freedom to PAY even MORE.
It's stupid.
And, should those of us who are white and emigrated to the US after the slave trade stopped also pay? That would be unfair.
Hohoho. Man, it sure would open up a toejameload of questions, and I am pretty sure the African American community won't get out of the mess as easily or as whole as they got into it.
Don't even go there. You have YOUR life now. Do something about it, or don't. But don't try to rob people who have either nothing to do with it, have sacrificed the lives of relatives to get your relatives free etc etc. Just stupid.
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Other then the recent arrivals from Africa (not involved in US slave-trading anyway), practically all african-americans in US have white blood in them. Average for the country is about 25% with south-east the lowest at 4-7% and gradually increasing north and west to above average.
That statement is based on the frequency distribution of a few dozen gene alleles that are exclusively present in people of sub-saharan african descent living in africa and not in caucasians and vice versa. Those exclusive marker genes are the result of a natural genetic drift that have occured since the sub-saharan africans and caucasians split from their common anscestor.
Any "black" person with any white ancestry in his past would not have been born if the slave trade did not bring his ancestors together to conceive a mixed-blood ancestor. No mixed-blood anscestor - no one would be here to demand reparations!
Besides the fact that all those mixed-anscestry blacks are descendants of slave-owners too!
The same applies to current "victims" of nazis or any other historical event. That is why it makes sense to consider liability to immediate victims and their clear legal heirs rather then general "historic" heirs.
The time is not a factor here - a treasure stolen from Egypt by Brits should be returned to Egypt because it would have stayed there and Egypt would be the same.
The romans, on the other hand should not be held liable for the destruction of Judea to the modern jews since if they did not do so, we would not have modern jews as we know them.
StSanta - vikings did raid at first. Then they settled eveywhere - in Russia, France, Ireland and the rest of Europe and assimilated into the native populations. Rather then one-time harassers of our ancestors, they are our ancestors. But if you still feel you owe something, send me a check and consider your burden lifted. ;)
miko
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Miko, I tell you, those were the days. First you raid them. As you are about to slay those foreigners, you spot a beautiful woman.
Then you raid the place.
Come back a year later, marry the woman, start a farm.
Then you're raided by your younger brother.
Oh yes, I remember those days fondly.
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Originally posted by StSanta
Miko, I tell you, those were the days. First you raid them. As you are about to slay those foreigners, you spot a beautiful woman.
Then you raid the place.
Come back a year later, marry the woman, start a farm.
Then you're raided by your younger brother.
Oh yes, I remember those days fondly.
errrr..... umm..... are you saying the vikings invented incest :D
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"Any "black" person with any white ancestry in his past would not have been born if the slave trade did not bring his ancestors together to conceive a mixed-blood ancestor. No mixed-blood anscestor - no one would be here to demand reparations!
Besides the fact that all those mixed-anscestry blacks are descendants of slave-owners too! "
Sorry miko, not quite right. What about recent arrivals (last 50 years) who have mixed blood?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
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Sorry miko, not quite right. What about recent arrivals (last 50 years) who have mixed blood?
Recent arrivals didn't have any slaves as ancestors, so it's kind of moot.
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Thats what I'm saying Raub.
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Tahgut,
What do your kids think about this? I hope that's not too personal a question. I'm just curious if being raised by an anglo if they have a slightly diferent view on the issue. If you don't want to answer no prob bud....
I saw the lawyers of the case on fox news last night. They were giving their side of the argument. I litteraly laughed so hard I started coughing and almost threw up. It pissed me off, but it was so outragios that it made me laugh.
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It is absurd, this. Here you have citizens in a country who do *many times better* economically, financially etc etc than their counterparts in their origial countries.
And THEY sue their own country.
What should happen if anything is that the African nations should sue the US for loss of people and money. But Americans suing the US, the very country that has enabled them acccess to wealth, riches, education and opportunities they would have gone without had they not been the descendants of slaves...
The whole aspect of "someone else did A therefore I must have B" makes me sick. One should get what one EARNS, and there's little to earn one way or another regarding one's roots.
I mean, I'm Danish through and through. Can trace my family back to the Vikings, basically. I don't claim to have discevered America though.
Oh yes! We were the first Europeans there! The US should give itself in reparations to Denmark!
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"The same people were asked if corporations that made profits from slavery should apologize to African-Americans. Among blacks, 68 percent said they should while 23 percent said they should not. Among whites, 32 percent said they should and 62 percent said they should not. "
I think that we are missing something here guys. African Americans as a group still are suffering from the effects of slavery. African Americans are 100 times more aware than we (white guys) are of the lingering injustices of slavery and inequality in America. They see many things that we do not.
Yes, I think the Lawsuit is silly. Making the same argument, anyone who is not Native American, should just pack up and leave the USA.
But that is not entirely the point...
Japan as a nation is largely in denial of the atrocities that it committed during the war. They are more mad at the US for dropping the A-bomb than they are apologetic for their own injustices. Injustices that were by far more inhumane and far less essential than using the bomb. I wasn't alive during WWII and really can't draw anything more than a distant connection to what the Japanese did. But I still would like to see Japan apologize for what they did and admit all that they did, and admit that it was wrong. Even if the apology comes from a 35 year-old citizen.
Clearly many African Americans are jumping on the bandwagon in hopes of a quick buck, others are looking for someone or something to blame their problems on. But I can assure you, that there are many African Americans who are very rational and realistic citizens who would just like the rest of the US to recognize how slavery affected, and still affects the United States.
Aetna profited from slavery.
For this, the company should apologize.
eskimo
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Originally posted by Udie
Tahgut,
What do your kids think about this? I hope that's not too personal a question. I'm just curious if being raised by an anglo if they have a slightly diferent view on the issue. If you don't want to answer no prob bud....
I saw the lawyers of the case on fox news last night. They were giving their side of the argument. I litteraly laughed so hard I started coughing and almost threw up. It pissed me off, but it was so outragios that it made me laugh.
The older one (24) is very realistic. He sees it as sort of a stunt, but feels very much like eskimo2 wrote in his post. It may be a stunt, but the message still needs to get out that things are nowhere near how they should be.
The younger one (22) want's to know where he signs up for the cash.:D
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http://www.aetna.com/diversity/
Top 100 Employers , The Black Collegian Award, 2000
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What should happen if anything is that the African nations should sue the US for loss of people and money.
Hmmm who exactly were the slaves bought from??? They were bought, as in bought in exchange for money and goods by Europeans, from AFRICAN BLACK slave traders. When will people realize that it was Africa that loved and benefited financially from the African slave trade? My god do people think Europeans just went in and stole these people?
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I think that we are missing something here guys. African Americans as a group still are suffering from the effects of slavery. African Americans are 100 times more aware than we (white guys) are of the lingering injustices of slavery and inequality in America. They see many things that we do not.
The majority of blacks also thought O.J. was innocent. So personally I don't care what they think "as a group". Their acute "awareness" has abslolutely nothing to do with reparations.
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maybe if there was a prosperous black country somewhere in the world people's opinions would be different. maybe then they would say "yeah you could have done so much better, why just look at your rich and peaceful relatives in blacklandia, here's some money"
i think most people look at american blacks and say "damn you got it good what's your problem?"
if people are so 'stripped' from their "homeland", the one they insist on being identified with everytime (african - americans) than why is no one heading back now that the boot of oppression is slightly lifted?
you'd think every day was hell for the displaced poor 'african-american' who hates this place because africa is so pure and better. every weekend i see on the public channel here in the bay area some black fake moslem bakery that gets up and moans and cries about the white devil and how evil america is and how pure africa is...the audience shouts out a 'tell it true!' or something every few seconds and beats the floor if the preacher is saying somthing really exciting.
something like 1 in 4 african has aids and south africa doesn't believe aids is real.....is somalia still technically classified as an anarchy run by warlords or did they manage to hammer something out?..........what's the longest stable running sub-saharan government?........ why isn't the great freedom land of liberia a monument to black acheivement once out from under white oppression?........what's racial persecution like in the great freedom land of rwanda? wait you mean blacks often persecute each other based on ethnicity too? i wouldn't believe that for a second...
my own father came to this country from germany as an orphan and grew up to become an america, including serving in vietnam and taking the good with the bad. if he was brought here in chains and the people hated me because i was his descendant i tell you i would be on the first plane to europe! no hesitation no questions just "see ya"!
i wouldn't sit here and whine. that's why it's hard to have sympathy for those who do - whining about it and suing people is passive, have some pride....if you are really so african then take a stand in africa and create this utopia you keep claiming would exist without whites. what would be more 'in-your-face-whitey' than that? quit sitting in whitey world and moping because it 'ain't fair', that only makes you look weak and needy.
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(http://www2.uclick.com/feature/02/03/27/po020327.gif)
- by Pat Oliphant
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In a reply above, someone reinforced my idea that many blacks were already slaves in Africa before being sold and shipped off to America. Uhmm, shouldn't the suit go after those who actually took their freedoms in the first place? Back then, it was legal there and here. Maybe ancestors of the white-slave traders have a suit in this as well. ;-)
I think every race and creed has been subjected to slavery at some point through the ages and thankfully we are finally beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel (or at least I hope.) However, I think women have had it worse than any one particular race.
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Eskimo2 made a very eloquent point about the lingering effects of slavery and the continued existence of racism in this country. The funny thing is, many of the posts on this thread with rants against this lawsuit just reinforce the fact that racism is far from dead. Here are just a few examples. Please note, many racist remarks are made by people who are well meaning and have the best of intentions. This is why it continues to exist in our Country. Racism is so entrenched it is often missed by those who are not on the receiving end:
that's why it's hard to have sympathy for those who do - whining about it and suing people is passive, have some pride....if you are really so african then take a stand in africa and create this utopia you keep claiming would exist without whites. what would be more 'in-your-face-whitey' than that? quit sitting in whitey world and moping because it 'ain't fair', that only makes you look weak and needy.
The majority of blacks also thought O.J. was innocent. So personally I don't care what they think "as a group". Their acute "awareness" has abslolutely nothing to do with reparations.
It is absurd, this. Here you have citizens in a country who do *many times better* economically, financially etc etc than their counterparts in their origial countries.
I know this is a European opinion, but it seemed to fit in so well
Black people don't "think as a group" any more than white people do. They are Americans and suggesting that they should "go back to Africa" instead of seeking equal opportunity in their OWN COUNTRY is rediculous. The third quote is very subtle, but significant. Why not be happy little darkies.....look at how the bushmen live for krisesakes! No matter how bad it is here you are better off.
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They are Americans and suggesting that they should "go back to Africa" instead of seeking equal opportunity in their OWN COUNTRY is rediculous.
That is how I would like to see them. I don't call them African-Americans, they do.
As far as I know, there is not a single law/regulation in this coutry left that would allow to give a preference to a white person at the expence of a black. At the same time, there is a multitude of laws/regulation that would not only allow giving a preference to black, they require and enforce it.
And this is wrong. Affirmative action is as bad and as wrong as the Jim Crow laws were.
The Constitution restricts the Government, not the people.
Sure, there is a lot of people here who are racist. They range from white supremacy through the non-racist middle to rabid black racists. Obviously this is a simplification, racism is not white-black issue. It is us-them issue. Any race/culture will to some extent dicriminate again non-members.
There are also degrees. What makes a person a racist?
On one extreme you have a KKK/Black Panthers. On another you have a preference of asssociation.
Does not moving into a black inner-city neighbourhood, but choosing a white suburb instead make you a racist?
Does not liking rap and preferring Mozart instead make you a racist?
Does sending your kid to the school that teaces Western Culture, instead of multi-culturalism make you a racist?
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Originally posted by midnight Target
The older one (24) is very realistic. He sees it as sort of a stunt, but feels very much like eskimo2 wrote in his post. It may be a stunt, but the message still needs to get out that things are nowhere near how they should be.
The younger one (22) want's to know where he signs up for the cash.:D
sounds like you raised a couple of normal kids, good job! :D
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Does not moving into a black inner-city neighbourhood, but choosing a white suburb instead make you a racist?
Does not liking rap and preferring Mozart instead make you a racist?
Does sending your kid to the school that teaces Western Culture, instead of multi-culturalism make you a racist?
Maybe.
If you choose the suburb ONLY based on race then yes (I'm assuming an equally affluent "inner-city" neighborhood for comparison purposes).
If you choose Mozart ONLY because he is white then yes.
And ditto on the school.
I thought Halle Berry's speech at the oscars was horrible. I still feel Bill Walton was the best center in basketball (when he was healthy). Mozart is OK, and I don't get too excited over Motown music.
NOT ONE of these opinions is based upon the race of the individuals in question.
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Eskimo2 made a very eloquent point about the lingering effects of slavery and the continued existence of racism in this country.
Black people don't "think as a group" any more than white people do.
The "as a group" reference came from Eskimo2's post, which stereotyped blacks "as a group", and which you thought was so eloquent. Why do you think I put it in quotes? And used the same sweeping generalization about OJ as Eskimo2 did about blacks "suffering from the effects of slavery"? And why didn't you quote the original??
So don't tell me that blacks "suffer as a group" any more than they "think as a group". And don't preach to me about racism dude. Your selectiveness makes it obvious that you don't have a clue.
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Originally posted by midnight Target
If you choose the suburb ONLY based on race then yes (I'm assuming an equally affluent "inner-city" neighborhood for comparison purposes).
If you choose Mozart ONLY because he is white then yes.
And ditto on the school.
You take an easy way out by presenting an unrealistic and trivial, clear cut case.
Of course there is not inner-city area equally influent as a suburb. And of course my decision is not based on a race of people who live there, but on their behavior/values and the property values. If the behavior and race correlate, I don't care why. I'm choosing based on what's better for me, and I'm not going to go into "root causes" business.
Is your decision making process different?
Same with the other two cases. I make pragmatic decisions. Do you really think that after I've heard something I liked on a the radio, I'd check the picture of the performer before ordering a CD? Obviously not, but at the same time, I have no intention to research Albanian or Sudanian music to make sure that my mucial interest are balanced racially.
Call it lazy, tell me it's my loss, but the question is, would you call me racist?
You've weazeled out of the school issue. I want my kids to gain a solid and practical knowledge, not the made up, emotional demagogery and that's what the multi-culturalism is.
I have no problem with teaching/learing about different cultures, but not at the expense of the culture we live in. And I reject an a priori assumption that all cultures are equivalent, all we have to do is dig enough for the proof.
Again, does that make me a racist?
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Whenever people make generalizations about how groups of people (who are different than themselves) think or behave it is an indicator of racist thinking. If you tend to think that aspects of a people can be easily summarized, you probably are misunderstanding them. Expect that all groups in a free country are as diverse in their thinking, behavior and morality as your own and you will probably have a better understanding of them.
On the same note, when there is evidence that a group of people thinks or behaves differently (such as the % of blacks and whites that think Aetna should apologize) you must also expect diversity in their reasoning behind their thoughts or actions. Summarizing people's thoughts is a dangerous thing.
Why do more African Americans than whites think that Aetna should apologize? Lots of reasons, I'm sure. And the question doesn't just suggest that some blacks think differently than some whites, it also suggests that some whites think differently than some blacks, and some blacks think similarly to some whites, and some whites think similarly to some blacks.
The article also stated:
"Nine out of 10 white respondents said the government should not make cash payments to slave descendants while 6 percent said it should."
Well any lawsuit that 90% of the people don't support must not have much merit, but the article also said:
"Among black respondents, 55 percent said the government should make cash payments and 37 percent said it should not."
This caught my attention more than anything.
What kinds of things have so many African Americans experienced to make them think so differently than the large part of the white population? The answers must be many, and long. Instead of assuming that African Americans are all nuts, I am much quicker to assume that there is a lot about America, and being African American than I understand, or can expect to understand.
Perhaps the 6% of whites, and 55% of blacks are right. In an ideal world, with an infinite amount of federal money, it might be fair to pay slave descendants. What I think these 6% of whites and 55% of blacks are missing, however, is how impossible this lawsuit is because it would lead to an infinite amount of lawsuits, even international lawsuits, going back to the beginning of history. Economic ruin of our nation, and perhaps the world, would be the real long term result if such a suit were to succeed. History is just too complex.
eskimo
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Koala,
How did you get a stereotype from:
"African Americans as a group still are suffering from the effects of slavery"
This just simply means that not every individual African American is suffering from the effects of slavery. But on the average, African Americans suffer from: lower pay, less education, higher crime, etc. Many studies, reports and census reports have clearly shown this.
Had I said "African Americans still are suffering from the effects of slavery", it could have been interpreted that each and every African American was still suffering. I think that most readers would have known what I meant anyway. "as a group" made the statement LESS stereotypical, if anything.
eskimo
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koala,
Here is your quote again:
"The majority of blacks also thought O.J. was innocent. So personally I don't care what they think "as a group". Their acute "awareness" has abslolutely nothing to do with reparations."
The point of my post, and I apologize if it was not well presented, was that racism can be subtle and inconspicuous to those that it is not directed toward. I am not calling you a racist. I am trying to point out some comments, made by well meaning people, that contain this subtle form of racism. If you feel your quote was not as racist as some, then you have helped me make my point. I don't perceive it sometimes as well. I believe I did say that the racist comments I was posting may be coming from people who have the best of intentions.
Your post sounds like you have no respect for the thoughts of blacks as a group because the majority thought OJ was innocent. This may or may not be true, but that is how it sounded, so that is why I included it.
meitla:
Racism : a belief that race is the primary determinant of human traits and capacities and that racial differences produce an inherent superiority of a particular race
Sorry if you think I trivialized your questions, but the answer does not change no matter how trivial you think it is. A decision based solely on race is racist. A decision based partially on race is partially racist. A decision based on the ignorance of other cultures cannot by definition be racist as there can be no feeling of superiority without the knowledge of those other cultures. Then you are talking ignorance instead of racism. The 2 are closely related but not the same thing.
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Exactly, the feeling of superiority (and acting on it) based on your group membeship.
The gotcha is that most of the PC types, ignore the rationale behind a decision and jump to the "racist" outcome.
"I live in a predominantly white neighbourhood, ergo, I must be racist."
"The cab driver refuses a fare to a crime ridden area, ergo, he is a racist."
"Most of the top management at company X is white, ergo, they are racist."
Since PC types can't measure the opportunity, they are trying to measure the outcome and imply that the "racist" outcome implies racism.
They are working on an abitrary, unjustified and totaly idiotic assumption that equal opportunity implies equal statistical participation in the outcome. If yo uask me, this trivializes the real racism, desensitizes society to real injustice.
Equal does not mean the same.
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Koala,
How did you get a stereotype from:
"African Americans as a group still are suffering from the effects of slavery"
midnight Target,
If I had said "Blacks as a group think O.J. Simpson was innocent", how would that be any different? They're both stereotypes that serve nothing more than to lump the thought process or condition of a certain group into one convenient, trivialized, pigeonhole. And that is just as "racist" as any example you've put forth.
In fact, let's just remove "as a group". If I said "Blacks think O.J. Simpson was innocent", you'd call that a racist remark. But if I said "Blacks still are suffering from the effects of slavery", you wouldn't. They both equally use a broad brush to portray all blacks the same way. But because one is a "negative" statement and one is a "positive" statement, then you call one "racist" and the other one "eloquent". And that kind of hypocritical double standard is the problem with most race issues today.
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....everyone wants a handout. Whats new?
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Koala,
The first statement: "Blacks think O.J. Simpson was innocent", suggests that ALL blacks think alike. Simply adding the word "More" at the beginning of the sentence changes it completely. If this is indeed true, and taken from a poll, then there is nothing racist about it. If it is assumed, however, then it may be of racist origin. The sentence was doomed to a racist tone after the second word; "Blacks think..." Other sentence beginnings that can only end up sounding racist would be; "Whites always...", "Jews never...", "Catholics can't..." or "Hispanics feel..."
The sentence: "Blacks still are suffering from the effects of slavery", is not the same. Like I said previously; "...on the average, African Americans suffer from: lower pay, less education, higher crime, etc. Many studies, reports and census reports have clearly shown this."
"Recovery" from the American Civil War, and slavery, is not complete. Civil rights laws did not instantly place minorities on an equal playing field with whites. Racism has been so ingrained in our country for so long that it's effects will long outlast any of us.
It is not racist to state facts.
eskimo
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All this roadkill about reparations makes me sick. Yes being a WHITE MALE in the south as I am I get sick and tired of hearing the crap that goes on like this. I have many friends (from sports and work) that are black, African-American or whatever you want to call them that think this is frigging stupid as well.
This point was brought up in a discussion in a Sociology class in college I took a couple of years ago. The professor (a liberal Bill Clinton desk hugger/ igar smoker.) was leading the class into why they should pay out reparations to all Americans who are of African descent. There was a woman in her 50's that happened to be of African descent who stood and asked why she should be receiving money for this. After all she was never a slave and she never felt demoralized or demeaned just because her great grandparents were born as slaves. Then the woman started getting support from other people (also African descent) and the professor stopped the class for the day because he was not getting his way.
You see in the South as I have witnessed it you don't have a vocal group that yells about reparations. You have handsomehunk bastards like that professor and others like the great Rev. Al "I need a new hairdo" Sharpton (who just happens to not be from the south AFAIK) calling for this.
My statement is this: Why can't we all just get along and remember the past for what it really is......THE PAST and the history of our nation where people dead and gone really screwed things up for us all.
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I'm not sure if this is the place for the following story, but I'm including it nevertheless. The story is true and I will gladly put my hand on anyone's book and swear to its truth.
Back in about 1995, after having been laid off from work the previous year or year-and-a-half, I decided to go back to college and get a degree that would help me to enter a new career. With my unemployment having run out and my savings gone, I went to the financial aid services of this fine state university educational institution during the process of enrollment and was told there was no help for me because I'd made too much money the year or so before. However, I was broke! During this discussion, another financial aid worker from behind the counter walked by and rather flippantly said aloud to the lady who was helping me, something to the effect of: "Are you trying to give out the money for the black students? We have a lot of extra money that we need to give out to them." That is not a direct quote, but the meaning is correct. I was stunned. I will now never support "affirmative action" because it just affirms all those things we are supposed to be against. And it strikes me that this is a form of reparation.
I hope I wasn't out of place.
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Steven;
This thread has many themes...
When I earned my Fire Science degree, my best friend was female. She was an A student and was one of only a small handful of firefighters that I know whom I would trust my life with. As she finished school, her husband was transferred to a military base near a fairly large Southern town. She applied for a job as a firefighter, achieved the highest score on the test and did well on the physical. In spite of her outstanding abilities, the chief was reluctant to hire her. She was a woman and there was only one other woman on this department of several hundred. When her chief finally gave her the job he said, "Well I guess hiring you is better than hiring another cupcake."
Imagine how many black firefighters in that town would not have their jobs if it were not for Affirmative Action quotas. Sure, I bet some of the blacks who were hired may not have scored as well as some of the whites who were not hired. But, I would also bet that there were/are many blacks who out-performed the majority of white recruits. These guys would have never stood a chance with this kind of a chief in charge. Imagine, working for years toward your dream of becoming a firefighter, and scoring at the top of the field, only to lose out to an average performing white guy, simply because he was a good-ol-boy.
How many stories like this one could a black southerner tell? I can only imagine.
I am not saying that Affirmative Action is not greatly flawed and severely unjust in many cases. Clearly it is, but in many cases it is the better of two evils.
The stories where a white guy (or woman) gets burned by AA only because they are white should make all of us angry. But keep in mind that we only hear of a small handful of select cases where whites, blacks or other minorities get burned by racial injustice from various directions. The reasons why these stories surface most likely varies.
Try to look at the big picture. Case by case, nearly everyone has either got it too easy or too tough.
Look critically and fairly. Try not to only focus on the examples where the white guy gets burned. Try not to brush off the stories where a minority gets burned by assuming that they must be whining or trying to get something from nothing.
On the average, white folks in America have a lot more opportunities than people of minorities. Many of these opportunities are the result of past or present racism. In our nation, this should not be tolerated or ignored.
eskimo
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I am not saying that Affirmative Action is not greatly flawed and severely unjust in many cases. Clearly it is, but in many cases it is the better of two evils.
Racism is never the better of two evils. Just because it's the law doesn't make it right. In fact, it makes it even more wrong. Individuals who practice racism should be fired, just as anybody who sexually harrasses people or who steals from the company should be fired. But institutionalizing racism by making it a law is not the answer.
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<<>> -Eskimo
I don't know. As long as we can't determine who is the best for any given job, we all suffer. Be it by personal bigotry or state sponsored color diversification.
Maybe I should've never typed what I did. It's not like I go around telling everyone about what happened to me as though it's some agenda I have and maybe I just needed a release and that's what happened here. But my point was that moneys that I could've used were held back from me in favor of someone else with a different color. That sounds like a reparation to me. It's become more than just politically correct to be racist against someone of white color in contrast to the many civil codes barring anyone from being racist towards anyone else. Remember, what I heard was coming from the state and the person who said this in front of me had no fear in saying this aloud for all to hear. I personally wish in your example that the chief had said this aloud for more to hear causing him a loss of employment. His personal feelings do not serve his department well at all. But, is there any sundown clause in affirmative action? Drat, now I'm getting off track.
I sometimes think of that day and wonder if they ever did put all the money to use. If not, then again, we all suffer. The more educated peoples we have the stronger and better we are as a group...black, white or polka-dot.
Anyway, many blacks had already long lost their freedoms in Africa before being sold to America and the suit should be directed there. And, it appears that some reparations are being made, though not by a direct check in their mail but in more indirect ways.