Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Citabria on March 26, 2002, 11:27:59 PM
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they are never in the MA and never ever in a dogfight.
the only place you see them is high above everything flying very timidly.
the f4u1c has the best results for a perked fighter. its priced low enough to allow people to be brave enough to use it to dogfight.
perk points on f4u4, tempest, spit14, ta152 are all too high for most players to think about usign more than once in a year
HTC please review the perk point cost of these planes.
(me262 is fine at its high 200 perk cost and f4u1c is priced perfectly) :)
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Maybe people just value their points too much. If I were to take up a perk plane, I'd fly it no differently than I fly any other airplane. Losing some points in a computer game isn't going to affect me.
There's also the possability (probability?) that another reason you don't see many prop-driven perkplanes is most people prefer to either save up for a 262, or not spend their perks at all.
J_A_B
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My vote...
Cut all perk costs in half (cept for F4u1C)
SKurj
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i agree. we were just talking about this tonight. the perk planes besides the 262 are WAY over priced. they almost never get used.
i was thinking maybe something like having them all around 10-15 perks. and maybe have the spit9, p51D, and la7 at about 1 perk. fester's right on. the F4U1C is a perfect example of a well perked plane.
my .02
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I agree absolutely (well, 262 and 234 could be dropped a bit).
The perked prop fighters only enjoy a very marginal performance advantage over the likes of the La-7, P-51D, Fw190D-9, Bf109G-10 and Typhoon. Most (not BB frequent posters) players only earn perk points at a very, very slow rate. So slow that a Tempest is a once or twice a month extravaganza, that is "rewarded" by a "Gangbang the rare plane" event that their skills and lack of familiarity with their plane leave them ill equipped to deal with.
Either that or they fly incredibly conservatively. I have 325 perk points as of now, when I flew the Spit XIV today I climbed high and found the enemy attacking our base. Among them were 2 La-7s, a P-51D and an N1K2. I tried to get the La-7s, but they'd always break into a diving turn. I knew that if I followed I'd never, ever get out. La-7s and P-51s being faster than Spit XIVs. I tried to get a shot, but took absolutely no chances.
I landed it later with every round of ammunition still onboard.
The perk fighters just aren't that much of a reward, especially when the gangbang is factored in.
The current prices don't control these fighters, they eliminate them.
My suggestion:
F4U-1C: 8 points
Ta152H-1: 12 points
F4U-4: 16 points
Spitfire Mk XIV: 16 points
Tempest: 20 points
Ar234: 25 points
Me262: 100 points
If these prices don't adequately control the populations of these aircraft, then raise them. Right now they are scenario aircraft only it seems. They are priced out of most player's reach, yet the prop perk fighters are barely better than the top end free fighters.
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A new Spirit of Detente has been reached between the Luftwhiners and the Spitdweebs. Well, maybe not all the Luftwhiners, cause there are a lot of little factions of us (we are a lot like Arabs like that ). I agree 100% with Karnaks post. I also still think a Spit IX LF should be introduced either free or at a minimal perk cost (like 6-8) and without the gangbang icons to give Spit fans a slightly better plane that would be good for common use.
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[..]perk points on f4u4, tempest, spit14, ta152 are all too high [..]
Amen! :)
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are you guys saying you guys don't have enough perk points to fly these planes?
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I barely ever see perk planes...... Then again I dont fly much either the past few months.
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f4u1c is the only perk aircraft i ever see mixing it up in the furballs down and dirty.
perk planes dont need to be exensive to be kept in check and the f4u1c is proof.
many people wont fly perk planes because they know they are gonna get shot down and they dont want to fly into a bad situation and loose more than a few perk points for their predicament.
me262 is fine at 200 perk points, I see them all the time because their performance is high above prop driven aircraft making them near invincible, and the high price of them makes it fun to hunt 262s with a 262 :)
but prop driven perks are further relegated to nonuse do to the fact that save save their perks to use the uber 262 and dont want to waste any on prop perks.
my insight into aircraft usage and ah player (dweeb) psyche has produced the following wll balanced perk point costs for prop driven planes:
Tempest: 30
f4u4: 25
spitXIV: 20
ta152: 15
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They cost too much in the current time of unreliable connections.
Disco'd twice in a Spit14 last night - that's no fun for any one.
Seeker
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Dont fly MA, but maybe I would if Karnaks point lineup was added.
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Everyone flys their perk planes too timidly because of the cost. Nobody ever uses them to attack GV's, or de-ack a field, or rarely to attack bombers because all these things are too dangerous and the risk to lose the perkies is too high. Instead they just hang out at 25K waiting for lone cons to jump and run away before they even engage if the situation doesn't look 100% in their favor.
The C-Hog was a perfect example of perking, you could earn enough points in a single sortie to get to ride one, so you weren't worried about strafing GV's in it and losing it. Besides, it basically cut the bbs traffic in half with the loss of all the "The C-Hog scourge" threads. I see C-Hogs fairly frequently, but not exclusively like it used to be. Even the average player, or infrequent player, can still earn enough to ride one at least once an evening. As it is now that's not the case for planes in the 60 perk range.
I'd love to see the numbers dropped a bit, something around Cit's and Karnaks numbers. If people are worried about the fact that some people might be able to fly exclusively perks, well, it doesn't happen in the C-Hog, and the perk earning potential in these planes is basically nil. You'd need better than a 20:1 kill ratio just to ensure you could stay in the seat of a perk ride.
-Soda
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I second Urchins thought on the Spit IXlf(or Spit XVIe)
I like citabrias list...it would be interesting to see the effect on the game...lets try it.
And at the same time...
Put a light perk on the Lanc and B17.....
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light perk on the big bombers? Didnt think of that but it worked well in the CT.
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Just take a tour and do an experiment. Drop all perk requirements and see what happens. Will everyone fly a 262 or chog?? Who know, just find out.
:)
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Originally posted by Maverick
Just take a tour and do an experiment. Drop all perk requirements and see what happens. Will everyone fly a 262 or chog?? Who know, just find out.
:)
Might not even take a full tour. Perhaps just a full week as a sample, then compare it to the average week over the past X tours.
-Sikboy
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My suggestion:
LA-7: 5 points
F4U-1C: 8 points
Ta152H-1: 12 points
Spitfire Mk XIV: 15 points
Tempest: 20 points
F4U-4: 20 points
Me262: 200 points
Ar234: 40 points
eskimo
P.S.
I have over 4500 fighter points and have burned up 5 262s, a Temp and tons of Chogs this month, just for the sake of burning points. My opinion/suggestion is not to get myself more rides in perk planes, but I would like to see/fight against some of these rare birds more often than once every 100+ hours online.
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I'd be all for any perk point re-structure, as long as all perk point accumulated were reset to 0.
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I disagree that folks don't fight in the perk planes for fear of losing the points.
I believe people dont' fight in 'em because of the embarrassment, self imposed and channel 1, of losing an "uber" bird to the unwashed masses.
For me personally, the only perked fighter worth it is the Me262, but I usually get bored and wish I was in a d9 or a5 instead. Then I pull the wingtips off.
F.
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I'm all for just cutting the perk point values in half. Even the 262 is way over priced at 200 perkies. 100 is just fine for it. The Chog is fine at 8 and you see just enough of them in the MA for a good mix and to keep the idea in mind that the hog in front of you might have 4 cannons.
HT, Pyro any thoughts?
Funny I have never seen any input on this subject from those gents.
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It's a shame that we have 4 great planes that are rarely seen (F4U4, Temp, Ta152, Spit14).....they should certainly be a bit cheaper. Half price for all of them would suit me fine. Seems like a waste to have them if you never see them.
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Maybe if the perk prices aren't reduced, HTC could at least reduce the number of perks you lose if you are shot down. That way you would still have to earn the perk plane the hard way, but the punishment wouldn't be a severe is you lose it.
We might see more perk planes getting involved in fights then.
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f4u1c is the only perk aircraft i ever see mixing it up in the furballs down and dirty.
'
Thats cause it doesnt have "hey look im a perk-plane" Icon hangin over it.
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LOCO,
That is one reason, but if the perk planes saw a few thousand sorties a month instead of a few hundred, maybe the need to gangbang the perk plane would diminish. Also, it is possible that it is a "gangbang the rare plane" deal to some degree. I have seen gangbangs form on C.202s for that reason.
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The price should double if there has to be a price.
Right now, they are rare and stigmatized... That is a good thing. We have a planeset that is pretty mid/midlate war with a lot of parity. If we see a perkie ride it is usually no big deal... we can avoid it or ignore it but.... with cheaper perkies.... we will see groups of two or three perk rides in all the fights. they will ruin every chance of ac parity in every single fight in the arena. They will go way past "annoying" on into 'spoiler' class.
Why some want such an unfair advantage is beyond me. I have taken the -1C up for this tour and flown it exactly as I do the -1a... it is mediocre for that type of flying in my hands. not as good as an la7, D9 or pee 51 or a well flown nik. We allready have the nik and lag and 51 and D9 in the game. making the perkies less rare will simply ratchet the planeset up to later war.
lazs
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I'm with lazs, if we're going to have perks let's have some bite to the cost, not some half-hearted token toll. If you can earn it in 1 sortie, it's so cheap it's not really even worth perking.
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Leave the perks the way they are now.
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I just don't understand why HTC is developing these planes if no one ever gets to use them (or does). Seems like a waste of valuable time.
The only perk plane I am willing to use is the C-HOG. It's cost of 8 perks is something I can live with. (Hate when CV starts manuevering on take-off though). The perk system can be very valuable IF it is applied properly - a more graduated system then we currently have.
Oh, and reset perks points every tour to something like 50 perks for all paying customers.
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Laz,
Making these slightly better aircraft that much more expensive certainly does have the effect of making fights against them boring and irritating. Maybe if people were willing to actually engage in them they'd be fun to fight.
I personally don't see a real significant difference between fighting an La-7 or a Tempest, an Fw190D-9 or a Ta152H-2, a P-51D or a Spitfire Mk XIV. If I'm in a 1940 or 41 aircraft, I am going to use the same tactics against them and am going to be horribly outclassed.
Making the perks priced more in line with their performance wouldn't make top end aircraft much more common, like the F4U-1C they'd still be rare. In addition, who is to say the "Bob" the Tempset pilot would be flying a C.202 if here weren't in a Tempest? More likely Bob'd be in a La-7. Not much different.
Fatty,
Most people can't earn an F4U-1C in a single flight. I've done it, but not very often. Some people have trouble earning an F4U-1C in 8 flights. Do you really think that the perk prop fighters are that much better than the top end free fighters?
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On the cheap perks I don't Karnak, that's why I think it's more an appease the plane hater token perk. The higher value are that much better though.
The Spit14 is obscene. It isn't the fastest on the deck but level it off the runway and watch the speedometer rise. Throw in cornering and climbing and once the novelty runs out I don't think people are going to be killing many of these in the MA.
F4u4? I took it heavy with bombs, rockets and full fuel by accident yesterday. When I noticed I was climbing faster than I normally do clean I noticed I was lacking the yellow nose and realized I was in the wrong plane.
The difference between an LA7 and a tempest is that when I pull the la7 down into turning he has to fight, but the tempest can still bug out.
I agree the f4u1c isn't really worth perking, but if it is perked then 1 in 8 flights doesn't exactly seem extravagent to me.
I do like the idea of monthly free perks (maybe 200, cost of highest plane) granted each new tour to paying accounts. Heck I'm not really even a fan of the perk system, but if we're going to have it then I'd rather have it than some half-hearted please everyone single digit perk costs.
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in the H2H arenas, the most used perk planes are the F4U,Tempest and Spit14. Sometimes u see a 262 or going by, but they are rather useless in dogfights.
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Are people really asking to see more of the perk planes in the arena?
Right now they are a neusance at best. You rarely see them.. and if you do they rarely engage an alert fighter.
What you are basically asking for is more perk planes that will still rarely engage an alert fighter... but will now be cheaper.
If people have a plane that is faster than all others around.. they will always keep it fast. It doesn't matter how much/little perks it cost. All you are really doing is attempting to get newbies in the perks sooner so everyone has a better chance of shooting a perked plane down.
AKDejaVu
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deja is correct and... as i have said... if they are cheaper and less stigmatized then they will hover over every fight and be a huge, unfair pain in the butt.... even more "veteran welfare" than they are now... No.... more like "veteran subsidy" a subsidy for people who don't need it.
Waste of time developing them??? well.....yeah bout as big a waste as developing early war planes in the current arena eh?
No... make em free for everyone for a couple of days a tour and let people fly em till they puke in an atmosphere of parity .. unless.... an unfair advantage and not parity is what you want?
my vote? early war "area" and perk plane free days. rest of the map and the tour belong to the most popular mid/midlate war.. as it should be.
lazs
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Laz,
Then you'll willing give up flying your F4U?
Didn't think so.
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karnak.. certainly I am. I would love to fly a mediocre early plane like the p40 or f4f in an early war area and I would not mind flying a -4 or bearcat in a late/late war area or on perk plane days. I just don't want to have a plane that performs to far off the norm.
lazs
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Lazs, what is your opinion of the Ta-152? You seem to think that all the perk planes offer an inherent advantage over all the non perked planes, but this does not seem to be the case with the Ta-152 (at least in my opinion).
Up to 20k, the Ta-152 is inferior in top speed, acceleration, turning, and climb rate compared to the P-51d,La-7,109g-10,and 190d-9. I'm sure it is somewhat inferior to some other planes as well, but those 4 are fairly common (as well as unperked). The only things that I can see as advantages for the 152 is that it dives better than the 109g-10 and the 190d-9, but it also has wings that tend to rip off when you pull out of a fast dive to quickly. On top of the wings, it also has a big old radiator that buffs tend to hit first when you try to attack them, making it kinda hard to fight if you are flying at the altitude the ta-152 was designed to be good at (which I guess is 35k and up).
Just curious, as I really don't have any experience in the other prop driven perk planes so I haven't formed any real opinion on them. The 262 is maybe a bit overpriced at 200 points, but I think it is terribly boring to fly (not to mention it is as fragile as a Ming vase), so I don't fly it too often.
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Originally posted by sourkraut
I just don't understand why HTC is developing these planes if no one ever gets to use them (or does). Seems like a waste of valuable time.
Well said! I'm all for lowering the perk prices.
(Pssst: How about a rolling perk set?)
Camo
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urchin...my opinion of the 152 is that it should not have even been put in the game. I was not aware that it climbs/accelerates worse than a pee 51 nor that it is slower at all alts lower than 20k. To be honest, i don't htink it is such a hot arena plane but... The fact that it is not used in the MA is a good thing. We don't really need any more runners.
lazs
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Ya know I see this Ta152 is mediocre talk all the time and I dont really understand where it comes from. I dont fly it much at all but I took one up the other night and got 4 quick kills before succumbing to a HO from an F4U that I just wasnt quick enough to dive under. It is a wicked plane against buffs. I am 4 and 1 in it this tour and 3 of those kills were B17s that were flying in relative close formation. The fourth was their 190 'escort'. Its a great buff killer if you're carefull with it and plan your attack approach well.
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Perk plane cost is way too high considering they're tagged..
Every fight becomes twice as hard when 3-4 spit***** see a perk plane because it is guaranteed each and every one of those range markers are going to start to decrease the second they see you in a perkie.
A La-7 is fast enough to cause prop perks trouble and if you make the mistake (or be forced to) of turning with one, the spits catch you and from that situation there is no way out.
The spit ix dives so well that nothing escapes it from energy disadvantage. The spit will turn 180 behind you, end up to your 6 at d400 while you push 0 g dive wep on in tempest for example.. The gap starts to grow so slow that you're forced to make evasive manouvers because of the spraying spit. That then enables the spit to catch you because theyre ridiculously fast in dives. Maybe they really were that way, dunno.
The dive performance alone is not a problem, the amazing E hold in hard 180 turns is. Countless times I've met a co-E spit HO, dived under him and continued level flight only to see that he managed to reverse behind me and follow at near co-speed after the hard turn. For some reason it doesn't seem logical to me that a plane that dives slightly and flies straight should be caught by the plane that passes you and then reverses direction from full speed. I've understood that one of the basic laws of physics is that an object is prone to keep it's kinetic energy state..
Therefore in order to reverse the direction of a few tons of iron and fabric, you need to apply a considerable amount of opposing energy to make that happen. Part of it comes from gravity if you reverse in vertical, still you should think the plane would at least slow down when the aoa is changed rapidly.
I'm beating a dead horse here and hijacking.. but who cares :)
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
I'd be all for any perk point re-structure, as long as all perk point accumulated were reset to 0.
Don't reset to 0, but set a limit for pp taken from one tour to the next (about 1000 pp or so). Maybe that would make the players saving many kps (kilo perks :) ) use them.
I think all planes newer/more powerful than SpitV or 109f should be perked, but very low, maybe about 0.5 to 1.0 pp. If flying anything there would be a reason to either bring it back or kill something.
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HiTech,
Please make Perk points transferable and sellable on eBay.
Muhahaha
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Originally posted by DmdNexus
HiTech,
Please make Perk points transferable and sellable on eBay.
Yes, please. I'd like to pay off my mortgage.
-- Todd/Leviathn